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On June 19 2011 04:04 GertHeart wrote:
For those who didn't study Chinese history, you have to understand china should not be able to get these islands, or anymore resources. Sadly the Chinese government is always fragile as has been for 1000's of years, a simple new leader can simply cause havoc to the rest of the world.
I have no problems with Chinese people, but I do have a problem with their leaders. There will probably be a WWIII and China will be the primary antagonist. Leaders cause wars nor individuals. If people had their way they wouldn't go to war.
If you could elaborate on the first paragraph instead leaving an inflammatory post, that would have added to the discussion. Instead you cite history that you don't specifically reference and then say China will be the villain of WWIII, this is nothing but inflammatory.
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On June 19 2011 04:04 GertHeart wrote:
For those who didn't study Chinese history, you have to understand china should not be able to get these islands, or anymore resources. Sadly the Chinese government is always fragile as has been for 1000's of years, a simple new leader can simply cause havoc to the rest of the world.
I have no problems with Chinese people, but I do have a problem with their leaders. There will probably be a WWIII and China will be the primary antagonist. Leaders cause wars nor individuals. If people had their way they wouldn't go to war.
The Chinese Government has only been fragile for perhaps the past 100 years
A total of 3 regime changes over a period of 900 years does not constitute a fragile government
The claim that the Chinese government wants war is completely baseless and lubricious, given that you view China as a potential "antagonist" in a WW in which it would be the aggressor is something I completely broke up in laughter about, nor is it something to even joke about.
If the people were informed and had their way, America would not be in Iraq.
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I think the citizens of those islands should simply vote on which country they want to be part of, and there you go: problem solved.
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On June 19 2011 04:04 GertHeart wrote:
For those who didn't study Chinese history, you have to understand china should not be able to get these islands, or anymore resources. Sadly the Chinese government is always fragile as has been for 1000's of years, a simple new leader can simply cause havoc to the rest of the world.
I have no problems with Chinese people, but I do have a problem with their leaders. There will probably be a WWIII and China will be the primary antagonist. Leaders cause wars nor individuals. If people had their way they wouldn't go to war.
This is a bit vague what you are saying. What exactly do you want to say here?
On June 19 2011 04:07 stork4ever wrote:
That map is pretty ridiculous, poor Brunei, they must be feeling claustrophobic. With such vital sea lanes being claimed by China, noone is going to allow China to exercise such a huge chunk of sea. For Japan/Korea, if they want to import oil from the Mideast they will have to send their ships through "Chinese claimed" sea or go the long way around. That can't be good for their economy.
Chinese Taipei? This isnt the Olympics!
I'm sorry to break it to you, but "Taiwan" is simply a common name. Officially, it is Chinese Taipei or ROC.
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The issue with china having many dynasty changes and leader changes doesn't really matter in my opinion. When you look at it, it's always been the HAN ethnic group that has controlled the area and laid claim to various places. Even during the dynasties where it was controlled by a minority chinese ethnic group, it didn't last very long and most of the population were the han ethnic group.
I am sure vietnam / phillipines and anyone else may have some legitimate claim to these territory but when you compare the amount of context historically/economically/millitarily/geographically it shouldn't even be close.
Vietnam and much of the southwest part of asia gained independence during the past 100 year when china was weak. If they couldn't take those land they claim now during that time you really think they'll be able to claim it now? The ONLY way china will give up those territory completely is through war. The present Chinese leaders are very adamant about sovereignty over the region and seems very willing to use military forces should the other side decide to.
bottomline, you can claim w/e you want in the region but there is no way you can reap the benefit of the region without the chinese leaders having something to do with it
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i honestly question all china's historical claims of exploration and map charting. i'm pretty sure even if there were records, they would be censored or destroyed due to the changing political moods.
i call on all their bluffs. i'll go ask the indignous people who they want to live under. most likely not china lol.
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On June 19 2011 04:14 Qi wrote:
I'm sorry to break it to you, but "Taiwan" is simply a common name. Officially, it is Chinese Taipei or ROC.
Officially its Republic of China. Chinese Taipei is used to make the People's Republic of China feel good.
There is like noone living on those rocks so unlike the Falklands, a vote would do nothing.
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On June 19 2011 04:12 mathemagician1986 wrote:
I think the citizens of those islands should simply vote on which country they want to be part of, and there you go: problem solved.
problem is barely anyone lives there since its basically a bunch of rocks. what all the governments there want is not the rocks but whats in the water. if it were to be a voting contest, the chinese government would just ship a bunch of people there and call it a victory. lol
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Original Message From GertHeart:
You seem to be a bit manipulated by your own government, or even your own mind. Learn your countries dark secrets, every country has them, the US used to kill groups of people off back in the 30's-70's just because they though they were communist supports, and that was a military style of execution. At one time they killed nearly 300 people in a small village. As well as poisoning many others.
You know yourself China has a lot of dark secrets, people of lower level, farmers, etc.. have no life, and are kept there, or students who take exams are taught to not think out of the box, and if they fail their life is almost over. Or further more they prefer workers not thinkers. The Chinese government is worse than the Russian Mafia run government, individuals not only have no say, but aren't even pawns, they are considered to be less than even tools. As internet exists you can find these truths out on your own, on the open web, or need be the underweb
I've read your posts, and you are quite blind to the actual truth, if you want to be a sheep the rest of your life so be it. Or if you would rather be a sheep and know the truth, then at least seek it.
I got this via PM but I want this out in the open. Let me say first thank you GertHeart for your concern for me to know about my government, but I assure you I am on the streets of China along with other students and protesters fighting the police to raise awareness on Tibet, government censor, and other ills of the government while you are somewhere out there.
Second, this is not about the evils of Chinese government. This is about territories that have been historically part of China when no one even knows they existed yet.
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Well for me, China got their rights to claim that it belong to them cause of the history.
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On June 19 2011 04:19 trucejl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 04:12 mathemagician1986 wrote:
I think the citizens of those islands should simply vote on which country they want to be part of, and there you go: problem solved. problem is barely anyone lives there since its basically a bunch of rocks. what all the governments there want is not the rocks but whats in the water. if it were to be a voting contest, the chinese government would just ship a bunch of people there and call it a victory. lol
lol nice
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I just noticed my post derailed the thread,sorry.
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On June 19 2011 04:26 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 04:19 trucejl wrote:On June 19 2011 04:12 mathemagician1986 wrote:
I think the citizens of those islands should simply vote on which country they want to be part of, and there you go: problem solved. problem is barely anyone lives there since its basically a bunch of rocks. what all the governments there want is not the rocks but whats in the water. if it were to be a voting contest, the chinese government would just ship a bunch of people there and call it a victory. lol Sounds like the trick Germany did to Poland ~_~ EDIT: They brought people across Germany who were born in the lands which were contested by both countries. Suddenly so many German people lived there,oh look!
could you please explain a little more? This statement baffles me.
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On June 19 2011 04:21 Qi wrote:Show nested quote +Original Message From GertHeart:
You seem to be a bit manipulated by your own government, or even your own mind. Learn your countries dark secrets, every country has them, the US used to kill groups of people off back in the 30's-70's just because they though they were communist supports, and that was a military style of execution. At one time they killed nearly 300 people in a small village. As well as poisoning many others.
You know yourself China has a lot of dark secrets, people of lower level, farmers, etc.. have no life, and are kept there, or students who take exams are taught to not think out of the box, and if they fail their life is almost over. Or further more they prefer workers not thinkers. The Chinese government is worse than the Russian Mafia run government, individuals not only have no say, but aren't even pawns, they are considered to be less than even tools. As internet exists you can find these truths out on your own, on the open web, or need be the underweb
I've read your posts, and you are quite blind to the actual truth, if you want to be a sheep the rest of your life so be it. Or if you would rather be a sheep and know the truth, then at least seek it. I got this via PM but I want this out in the open. Let me say first thank you GertHeart for your concern for me to know about my government, but I assure you I am on the streets of China along with other students and protesters fighting the police to raise awareness on Tibet, government censor, and other ills of the government while you are somewhere out there. Second, this is not about the evils of Chinese government. This is about territories that have been historically part of China when no one even knows they existed yet.
Being polite, respectful and well-spoken is only the first step in having a meaningful discussion. At some point you have to consider positions that are different from yours. Even allow the possiblility that they might be correct and you might be at least partially wrong. If not, there's no discussion, just people repeating their positions over and over. And even if they are doing it politely and respectfully it's still a waste of their time.
This goes both for the statement that historical texts prove these islands are China's and the wider issue of China's government being a force for good or evil in international politics (which, like it or not will affect how people will react to claims like these).
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On June 19 2011 03:39 Kupon3ss wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 03:33 Fontong wrote:
So what do undeniable historical claims have to do with anything? I would say both Mexico and Britain have an undeniable historical claim over parts of the US. The difference is that the US is filled with Americans who have been living there for hundreds of years. From your historical timeline, the Nansha Islands have little to no Chinese population, and the Chinese have allowed foreigners to settle there are build strategic bases there for about a hundred years.
On one hand, people shouldn't build things(especially militarily significant things) on land someone else claims. However, I see this as only China's fault if they made no effort to prevent this occurrence, despite the fact that they a great deal of time to do so. Geographically, it looks as though the Philippines have a very logical claim over the area, as well as a national security interest in preventing China from claim islands right of their coast. You should know well that China already puts extreme military pressure on the nations around it, simply by existing. The Mexican and British claims were both legally accepted and dealt with in the following way Post the War of Independence, the main disputed lands lay in the Northwestern US, namely Oregon and in Northeastern US, namely Maine. In both cases both nations had laid claims over the same tracts of land at near simultaneous times with little cartography or mapping (in the case of the western part) or with statehood/provincial disputes (in the eastern part), both of the issues were resolved by treaties worked out by the parties Mexican claims over land that is currently "American" were lost either during the Texan Revolution that made the settlers revolt, claim statehood, and join the United States, and by invasion of the US Army during the American Mexican war, at the end of which the lands were ceded to the United States for a sum of money
Everyone who took us history knows this, but OP is citing historical not legal.
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Since nobody can agree about who owns the islands i have two suggestions.
1) Split them. Just an equal split for the countries that are considered contenders for the ownership.
2) Give them to the country that needs them the most, and help them out!
I doubt china really needs them, but some of the other countries could probably use them a lot more. Cause it seems like there is no real fact about who owns them, just opinions.
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On June 19 2011 04:16 trucejl wrote:
The issue with china having many dynasty changes and leader changes doesn't really matter in my opinion. When you look at it, it's always been the HAN ethnic group that has controlled the area and laid claim to various places. Even during the dynasties where it was controlled by a minority chinese ethnic group, it didn't last very long and most of the population were the han ethnic group.
I am sure vietnam / phillipines and anyone else may have some legitimate claim to these territory but when you compare the amount of context historically/economically/millitarily/geographically it shouldn't even be close.
Vietnam and much of the southwest part of asia gained independence during the past 100 year when china was weak. If they couldn't take those land they claim now during that time you really think they'll be able to claim it now? The ONLY way china will give up those territory completely is through war. The present Chinese leaders are very adamant about sovereignty over the region and seems very willing to use military forces should the other side decide to.
bottomline, you can claim w/e you want in the region but there is no way you can reap the benefit of the region without the chinese leaders having something to do with it
Wait, so the Manchu period from 1644 to 1911 wasn't very long? That was a Mongolian dynasty, not a Han Chinese one; and they were the ones that turned China inward in outlook; not exactly a good thing to do if you have land claims over certain territories and not secure them.
The problem with the arguments for China AND Vietnam's pre-1800 claims is that they could just as well as be talking about the Paracel Islands, which have been a flash-point in their relations for quite a long time.
Finally, if this comes down to arbitration, the ROC and Philippines have the best claims over the territory, the ROC by being virtue of the true successor state to the old imperial government that originally made those claims, and the Philippines through UNCLOS and Res Nullius. This does not negate your point about the PRC having some sort of say in it, as their militarily-weighted position has essentially muscled their right over a segment of the islands, regardless of other claims backed up by non-military arguments.
Anyway, why am I bickering about this; we're supposed to be having a barrage of Weiner jokes.
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On June 19 2011 04:34 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 04:21 Qi wrote:Original Message From GertHeart:
You seem to be a bit manipulated by your own government, or even your own mind. Learn your countries dark secrets, every country has them, the US used to kill groups of people off back in the 30's-70's just because they though they were communist supports, and that was a military style of execution. At one time they killed nearly 300 people in a small village. As well as poisoning many others.
You know yourself China has a lot of dark secrets, people of lower level, farmers, etc.. have no life, and are kept there, or students who take exams are taught to not think out of the box, and if they fail their life is almost over. Or further more they prefer workers not thinkers. The Chinese government is worse than the Russian Mafia run government, individuals not only have no say, but aren't even pawns, they are considered to be less than even tools. As internet exists you can find these truths out on your own, on the open web, or need be the underweb
I've read your posts, and you are quite blind to the actual truth, if you want to be a sheep the rest of your life so be it. Or if you would rather be a sheep and know the truth, then at least seek it. I got this via PM but I want this out in the open. Let me say first thank you GertHeart for your concern for me to know about my government, but I assure you I am on the streets of China along with other students and protesters fighting the police to raise awareness on Tibet, government censor, and other ills of the government while you are somewhere out there. Second, this is not about the evils of Chinese government. This is about territories that have been historically part of China when no one even knows they existed yet. Being polite, respectful and well-spoken is only the first step in having a meaningful discussion. At some point you have to consider positions that are different from yours. Even allow the possiblility that they might be correct and you might be at least partially wrong. If not, there's no discussion, just people repeating their positions over and over. And even if they are doing it politely and respectfully it's still a waste of their time. This goes both for the statement that historical texts prove these islands are China's and the wider issue of China's government being a force for good or evil in international politics (which, like it or not will affect how people will react to claims like these).
When we discuss US policy on stem cell research do we bring up the Civil War or the massacre of the Native Americans? No. Same thing here. We may digress, but it bears nothing to the issue at hand.
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IMO China is the best organised nation and so for development of greater good it is just to have them invest in the region and own the property.
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EPT
