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On June 19 2011 07:20 HoldenR wrote:
If history gave people the right to claim land, the UK could annex the US and about half the planet, Italy could claim most of Europe, and Mongoloia could claim all of Asia.
I do not mean this offensively, but the amount of brainwashing that Chinese citizens are subjected to is completely insane, and I cannot take a word they say regarding their own country seriously. This is coming from someone who knows Chinese inhabitants(Fellow students), and knows what their viewpoints are on some of the biggest human rights violations committed by China.
Get out.
You have no clue how naive you sound.
Its goddamn infuriating when people like you accuse other people of 'being brainwashed' when they are trying for a reasoned debate.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 19 2011 06:53 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Ownership in an absolute sense means nothing more than having the power to maintain control over something. If China has the power and the will to own these islands and the sea surrounding them, then they own them.
Just to remind everyone again, the world is governed by force, not by emotions or desires or invented "moralities." You can lament that fact all you want, but it's never going to change anything.
but wouldn't that mean the powerful only gets more powerful?
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On June 19 2011 06:53 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Ownership in an absolute sense means nothing more than having the power to maintain control over something. If China has the power and the will to own these islands and the sea surrounding them, then they own them.
Just to remind everyone again, the world is governed by force, not by emotions or desires or invented "moralities." You can lament that fact all you want, but it's never going to change anything.
Wrong. Although a very valid view (it's called realism) the truth is probably somewhere in between realism and liberalism. Fact is that countries, including China, don't just do stuff without concidering the consequences. If China took these islands by force, just because they wanted to, they'd have major issues on the international stage. That's why it wont happen - not because they can't but because they realize the implications of doing so. And it's not that they'll be at war with anyone. At least not anyone that matters.
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On June 19 2011 07:36 Consolidate wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 07:20 HoldenR wrote:
If history gave people the right to claim land, the UK could annex the US and about half the planet, Italy could claim most of Europe, and Mongoloia could claim all of Asia.
I do not mean this offensively, but the amount of brainwashing that Chinese citizens are subjected to is completely insane, and I cannot take a word they say regarding their own country seriously. This is coming from someone who knows Chinese inhabitants(Fellow students), and knows what their viewpoints are on some of the biggest human rights violations committed by China. Get out. You have no clue how naive you sound. Its goddamn infuriating when people like you accuse other people of 'being brainwashed' when they are trying for a reasoned debate.
When the entire educational system is owned and run by the state, and that very same state teaches them that all the human rights violations in Tibet don't even occur, but that the people in Tibet love them and that they are very grateful for China's presence in their country, there is a clear point where you just can't discuss these subjects with these people anymore, to no fault of their own.
I've been to Tibet and seen it first hand, yet Chinese citizens lie to my face about it. They aren't aware of what they're saying, and I don't blame them for it. Calm the fuck down.
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On June 19 2011 07:46 HoldenR wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 07:36 Consolidate wrote:On June 19 2011 07:20 HoldenR wrote:
If history gave people the right to claim land, the UK could annex the US and about half the planet, Italy could claim most of Europe, and Mongoloia could claim all of Asia.
I do not mean this offensively, but the amount of brainwashing that Chinese citizens are subjected to is completely insane, and I cannot take a word they say regarding their own country seriously. This is coming from someone who knows Chinese inhabitants(Fellow students), and knows what their viewpoints are on some of the biggest human rights violations committed by China. Get out. You have no clue how naive you sound. Its goddamn infuriating when people like you accuse other people of 'being brainwashed' when they are trying for a reasoned debate. When the entire educational system is owned and run by the state, and that very same state teaches them that all the human rights violations in Tibet don't even occur, but that the people in Tibet love them and that they are very grateful for China's presence in their country, there is a clear point where you just can't discuss these subjects with these people anymore, to no fault of their own. I've been to Tibet and seen it first hand, yet Chinese citizens lie to my face about it. They aren't aware of what they're saying, and I don't blame them for it. Calm the fuck down.
Tibet will be sinicized (again and permanantly). It will be painful, but it will happen.
The chinese are very aware of what's happening. Its strange that you make excuses for them.
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On June 19 2011 07:36 Consolidate wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 07:20 HoldenR wrote:
If history gave people the right to claim land, the UK could annex the US and about half the planet, Italy could claim most of Europe, and Mongoloia could claim all of Asia.
I do not mean this offensively, but the amount of brainwashing that Chinese citizens are subjected to is completely insane, and I cannot take a word they say regarding their own country seriously. This is coming from someone who knows Chinese inhabitants(Fellow students), and knows what their viewpoints are on some of the biggest human rights violations committed by China. Get out. You have no clue how naive you sound. Its goddamn infuriating when people like you accuse other people of 'being brainwashed' when they are trying for a reasoned debate.
Well, to be fair, looking at the OP, he doesn't really seem to be looking for a reasoned debate. It is written a little bit more like he is informing people of something. Look at his first statement, talking about the undeniable historical claim. What is there to discuss following that claim?
While I do think HoldenR is being a bit over dramatic in his statement that he cannot take a word Chinese people say about their own country seriously, there is a bit of truth in his statement.
Chinese children do get classes in their school dedicated to learning to love China. I also know this for a fact because I've lived there and have many Chinese friends. It is a sort of 'brainwashing' though that term always seems a bit condescending.
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On June 19 2011 07:46 HoldenR wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 07:36 Consolidate wrote:On June 19 2011 07:20 HoldenR wrote:
If history gave people the right to claim land, the UK could annex the US and about half the planet, Italy could claim most of Europe, and Mongoloia could claim all of Asia.
I do not mean this offensively, but the amount of brainwashing that Chinese citizens are subjected to is completely insane, and I cannot take a word they say regarding their own country seriously. This is coming from someone who knows Chinese inhabitants(Fellow students), and knows what their viewpoints are on some of the biggest human rights violations committed by China. Get out. You have no clue how naive you sound. Its goddamn infuriating when people like you accuse other people of 'being brainwashed' when they are trying for a reasoned debate. When the entire educational system is owned and run by the state, and that very same state teaches them that all the human rights violations in Tibet don't even occur, but that the people in Tibet love them and that they are very grateful for China's presence in their country, there is a clear point where you just can't discuss these subjects with these people anymore, to no fault of their own. I've been to Tibet and seen it first hand, yet Chinese citizens lie to my face about it. They aren't aware of what they're saying, and I don't blame them for it. Calm the fuck down.
ah intellectually sheltered
blind love for a system that is so opaque....unfortunately outsiders don't really have time to help them
at least the economy seems okay right now...as long as they leave Taiwan alone... Hong Kong used to be nice until they screwed it up...
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So wait.. Tibet belongs to China. Arunachal Pradesh belongs to China.. Nansha Islands belong to China....Taiwan belongs to China...So basically everything nearby should be China... Dude.. are you seriously working for the government, such posts should have been flagged up for review and ban!! Seriously.. China is delusional about so many things.
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On June 19 2011 07:53 IzieBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 07:46 HoldenR wrote:On June 19 2011 07:36 Consolidate wrote:On June 19 2011 07:20 HoldenR wrote:
If history gave people the right to claim land, the UK could annex the US and about half the planet, Italy could claim most of Europe, and Mongoloia could claim all of Asia.
I do not mean this offensively, but the amount of brainwashing that Chinese citizens are subjected to is completely insane, and I cannot take a word they say regarding their own country seriously. This is coming from someone who knows Chinese inhabitants(Fellow students), and knows what their viewpoints are on some of the biggest human rights violations committed by China. Get out. You have no clue how naive you sound. Its goddamn infuriating when people like you accuse other people of 'being brainwashed' when they are trying for a reasoned debate. When the entire educational system is owned and run by the state, and that very same state teaches them that all the human rights violations in Tibet don't even occur, but that the people in Tibet love them and that they are very grateful for China's presence in their country, there is a clear point where you just can't discuss these subjects with these people anymore, to no fault of their own. I've been to Tibet and seen it first hand, yet Chinese citizens lie to my face about it. They aren't aware of what they're saying, and I don't blame them for it. Calm the fuck down. ah intellectually sheltered blind love for a system that is so opaque....unfortunately outsiders don't really have time to help them at least the economy seems okay right now...as long as they leave Taiwan alone... Hong Kong used to be nice until they screwed it up...
This is sarcasm right?
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Ummmmm, i think you might have a slightly biased view about communism. No offense, but your country isn't exactly known for it's level-headed understanding view of why communism works in a lot of countries.
What countries has communism worked in?
No offense, but your comment shouldn't exactly be seen as a level-headed understanding of how communism worked out in practice.
China KNOWS it can exert considerable military leverage before having to worry about the U.S.
We all remember Vietnam don't we? Well China would be easily 50x Vietnam.
U.S. isn't stupid enough to flex its terribly weakened (by their economy) military muscles against China anytime soon short of China invading a neighboring country.
...With what?
The US military hasn't been weakened by the economy, what a silly notion. The Pacific Fleet didn't just disappear.
China vs US would easily be 50x Vietnam, for China. Horrible horrible damage to China to fight a war with the US right now or anytime soon. They don't have the Navy or the Air Force to do it, who cares about the People's Liberation Army? Soldiers can't walk on water.
Hrmm? Relevance to location has never been much of a boundary to claim.
Harrooommmmmm? We're not talking about claims to parts of land masses, we're talking about borders at sea, which have their own set of rules.
![[image loading]](http://theora.com/images/Falkland%20Islands.gif) done
Done making yourself look ignorant, maybe. The existence of human beings living somewhere adds another layer of legal complexity that doesn't exist with uninhabited rocks in the ocean.
Antarctic claims aren't recognized by anyone, it has a special legal status. And all of the islands that are part of the Commonwealth are there by choice, the people are subjects of the Queen and under her protection.
One more time a piece of land or an island that has people living there is a different story from somewhere that is uninhabited, the rules are different.
Vietnam has no claim to any land outside its mainland. It barely had enough civilization in its mainland when China was already exploring the South China Sea. We hope it doesn't reach war. We want peace. But we also want our rightful claim to these islands. The problem is that other countries are aggressively claiming it without talking to China and respecting history.
Vietnam's claim to the Spratly's is as tenuous as China's.
The problem is that after hundreds of years of being replaced by European countries and Japan as the colonial bully of Southeast Asia, China now expects the other countries in the region to start behaving more like they did in the past, when they were puppet states or vassals of China. People talk about the USA thinking it can and should dominate other countries but China is the country that openly says they should be getting deference from other countries every day, from their government officials to their military to the Chinese E-Brigade to regular Chinese citizens. We want what is rightfully ours, you better respect China, disagreement with China = an attack on China. They do it to the US, they do it to anyone who disagrees with them about anything in the S. East Asia region, they returned to imperialism the instant the Communist Party took control, in Korea in 1950, in Tibet, in Xinjiang, in Mongolia, against India in the 1960s, against Vietnam in 1979, those are just the countries and regions they've fought aggressive imperialist wars against, on top of all their saber-rattling against Taiwan. Now they've added the Philippines and Malaysia and Brunei to the list.
It has nothing to do with communism it has to do with the facts that China has an aggressive attitude and speaks and acts in a bullying intimidating fashion and other countries in the region are not going to put up with it.
China's intent is to push all the other countries in the region out of the Yellow, East and South China Seas, so they can claim the economic rights (not just who owns the oil and gas under the seabed, but control of trade regulations and shipping lanes and everything) to enrich themselves with money and benefits that rightly belong to other countries as well.
Only one country wants to dominate these three seas at the expense of all the neighboring countries. China. Only when one certain country is involved in these disputes do they rise above the level of diplomatic squabbling. China.
And remember, Chinese arguing for this will tell you that it is China's "right" to give itself a beneficial position over every other country nearby. Just because.
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On June 19 2011 07:52 Consolidate wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 07:46 HoldenR wrote:On June 19 2011 07:36 Consolidate wrote:On June 19 2011 07:20 HoldenR wrote:
If history gave people the right to claim land, the UK could annex the US and about half the planet, Italy could claim most of Europe, and Mongoloia could claim all of Asia.
I do not mean this offensively, but the amount of brainwashing that Chinese citizens are subjected to is completely insane, and I cannot take a word they say regarding their own country seriously. This is coming from someone who knows Chinese inhabitants(Fellow students), and knows what their viewpoints are on some of the biggest human rights violations committed by China. Get out. You have no clue how naive you sound. Its goddamn infuriating when people like you accuse other people of 'being brainwashed' when they are trying for a reasoned debate. When the entire educational system is owned and run by the state, and that very same state teaches them that all the human rights violations in Tibet don't even occur, but that the people in Tibet love them and that they are very grateful for China's presence in their country, there is a clear point where you just can't discuss these subjects with these people anymore, to no fault of their own. I've been to Tibet and seen it first hand, yet Chinese citizens lie to my face about it. They aren't aware of what they're saying, and I don't blame them for it. Calm the fuck down. Tibet will be sinicized (again and permanantly). It will be painful, but it will happen. The chinese are very aware of what's happening. Its strange that you make excuses for them.
Most Chinese are not aware of what's happening. They are being taught that Tibet is historically part of China and that the government is making things a lot better there now. Many Chinese are being encouraged to move there through things such as allowing them to have more kids there, or just offering good incentives. At the moment there are many more Chinese people living in Lhasa than original Tibetans.
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On June 19 2011 07:46 HoldenR wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 07:36 Consolidate wrote:On June 19 2011 07:20 HoldenR wrote:
If history gave people the right to claim land, the UK could annex the US and about half the planet, Italy could claim most of Europe, and Mongoloia could claim all of Asia.
I do not mean this offensively, but the amount of brainwashing that Chinese citizens are subjected to is completely insane, and I cannot take a word they say regarding their own country seriously. This is coming from someone who knows Chinese inhabitants(Fellow students), and knows what their viewpoints are on some of the biggest human rights violations committed by China. Get out. You have no clue how naive you sound. Its goddamn infuriating when people like you accuse other people of 'being brainwashed' when they are trying for a reasoned debate. When the entire educational system is owned and run by the state, and that very same state teaches them that all the human rights violations in Tibet don't even occur, but that the people in Tibet love them and that they are very grateful for China's presence in their country, there is a clear point where you just can't discuss these subjects with these people anymore, to no fault of their own. I've been to Tibet and seen it first hand, yet Chinese citizens lie to my face about it. They aren't aware of what they're saying, and I don't blame them for it. Calm the fuck down.
Get out.
You still have no clue how naive you sound.
Since you failed to comprehend the first time, let me tell you; you are incurably naive.
Don't mean to derail the thread, but I went to Tibet last summer on vacation for a matter of fact. And the undeniable fact is that the majority of Tibetans, who are VERY smart people, WANT and NEED to be part of China since it has always received money from the rest of the country. Look at the size of Tibet, and then look at their GDP; a little over $6 billion USD. Tibet is a joke economically (and will be for the longest foreseeable future), and it was just a small minority of mostly young people that started the few riots that was blown WAY out of proportion by the Western Media as expected.
If you actually went to Tibet then you wouldn't make such obviously false claims. I've got pictures, have you? I speak Chinese, have actual Tibetan friends, understands minor Tibetan, do you?
Yah that's what I thought. Get out.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 19 2011 07:53 Mr Tambourine Man wrote:
Well, to be fair, looking at the OP, he doesn't really seem to be looking for a reasoned debate. It is written a little bit more like he is informing people of something. Look at his first statement, talking about the undeniable historical claim. What is there to discuss following that claim?
While I do think HoldenR is being a bit over dramatic in his statement that he cannot take a word Chinese people say about their own country seriously, there is a bit of truth in his statement.
Chinese children do get classes in their school dedicated to learning to love China. I also know this for a fact because I've lived there and have many Chinese friends. It is a sort of 'brainwashing' though that term always seems a bit condescending.
Nationalism isn't by any means unique or even notable among the Chinese, just look at the American educational system and the veneration of the Founding Fathers, etc. If you read the earlier thread, there were like a dozen Filipinos posting about how the Philippines were the true owners of the island, not knowing the history of how the Philippines actually justified their claim. (Some guy pulled a Sealand on the islands in the 50s and went "welp imma give these to the government" in 1970, which was after basically everyone else's claims by decades)
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The reason this is becoming an issue now is due to relative chinese naval strength. Since the 90's (and likely earlier) strengthening the People's Liberation Army Navy has been a major policy objective of the Chinese administration. There has been a recent (since 2005 or so) pattern of China increasingly asserting/claiming marine borders which are increasingly contentious.
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I just read that "Nansha" is vietnamese name.
Historically speaking, this land seems to belong more to vietnam than other countries.
I also read that this Island as a huge economic value as it main contain multiple spots of petrol resources.
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Regardless of if the point made is correct or not, the fact that someone thinks he needs to be an apologist for their government makes me sick. Such slavish selfrespectless behavior.
But this is probably a sockpuppet. I hope they pay you enough money to do this otherwise maybe you are better off farming WoW gold.
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On June 19 2011 08:05 Ravencruiser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 07:46 HoldenR wrote:On June 19 2011 07:36 Consolidate wrote:On June 19 2011 07:20 HoldenR wrote:
If history gave people the right to claim land, the UK could annex the US and about half the planet, Italy could claim most of Europe, and Mongoloia could claim all of Asia.
I do not mean this offensively, but the amount of brainwashing that Chinese citizens are subjected to is completely insane, and I cannot take a word they say regarding their own country seriously. This is coming from someone who knows Chinese inhabitants(Fellow students), and knows what their viewpoints are on some of the biggest human rights violations committed by China. Get out. You have no clue how naive you sound. Its goddamn infuriating when people like you accuse other people of 'being brainwashed' when they are trying for a reasoned debate. When the entire educational system is owned and run by the state, and that very same state teaches them that all the human rights violations in Tibet don't even occur, but that the people in Tibet love them and that they are very grateful for China's presence in their country, there is a clear point where you just can't discuss these subjects with these people anymore, to no fault of their own. I've been to Tibet and seen it first hand, yet Chinese citizens lie to my face about it. They aren't aware of what they're saying, and I don't blame them for it. Calm the fuck down. Get out. You still have no clue how naive you sound. Since you failed to comprehend the first time, let me tell you; you are incurably naive. Don't mean to derail the thread, but I went to Tibet last summer on vacation for a matter of fact. And the undeniable fact is that the majority of Tibetans, who are VERY smart people, WANT and NEED to be part of China since it has always received money from the rest of the country. Look at the size of Tibet, and then look at their GDP; a little over $6 billion USD. Tibet is a joke economically (and will be for the longest foreseeable future), and it was just a small minority of mostly young people that started the few riots that was blown WAY out of proportion by the Western Media as expected. If you actually went to Tibet then you wouldn't make such obviously false claims. I've got pictures, have you? I speak Chinese, have actual Tibetan friends, understands minor Tibetan, do you? Yah that's what I thought. Get out.
Conceited and disgustingly arrogant. Human rights violations for economic development are not okay.
I would reply with something equally retarded as "get out", but I'd rather just not read your posts anymore. I hope you enjoy justifying blood money.
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Osaka27178 Posts
This thread, predictably, has devolved into personal insults.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/Location_of_the_BOTs.svg/735px-Location_of_the_BOTs.svg.png)
