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so many people going off topic throwing all type of trash out against china. everyone knows that china has its issues but those are not the ones being discussed here so keep it to another thread. want to discuss the firewall? make your own thread.
for all those saying have the inhabitants vote. THERE ARE BARELY ANYONE LIVING ON THESE ROCKS. so stop calling for it because it doesn't work in this situation.
in the end there is going to be 2 basic conclusions.
1. China secures full claim to these island.
2. China disputes these claim along with other island and nothing is done. (Because China is stronger economically and militarily)
The chance of there being a war for these territory is minimal and the chance of USA military intervention in this war would be even lower. so for china to lose claim on this island is basically impossible
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why the fuck would these small asian countries try to provoke china?
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I'm so tired of these disputes over various irellevant islands... don't care anymore; Åland belongs to sweden omfg omf gomfg fomdom!4
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On June 19 2011 05:17 FenneK wrote:
why the fuck would these small asian countries try to provoke china?
Because they are backed by the USA and have a common "enemy"/target.
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On June 19 2011 05:17 FenneK wrote:
why the fuck would these small asian countries try to provoke china?
because USA is always lurking the background trying to start shit lol.
otherwise these small asian countries wouldn't even dare to let off a fart in these islands since china can run them over in a few weeks.
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"Please no hate and ignorant posts.
Limit the discussion to facts and educated opinion.
Thanks"
Please don't say this then say "undeniable". You clearly do not understand what that means.
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On June 19 2011 05:17 FenneK wrote:
why the fuck would these small asian countries try to provoke china?
China wants the islands because with the islands come the water and with the water come the shipping lanes.
Kind of like me robbing you from your wallet and the police then asking why you were provoking me for stealing your wallet.
Historical claims mean little imo. The water is well divided as it stands, it should remain as it is. You have to be practical in this. You can't adapt borders every time China comes up with a new piece of land or water it wants.
These countries are likely to prefer war rather then giving this area to China because if China gets it then war is no longer an option for them. Chinese naval forces could move withing firing distance of their shores, within range of their cities and if they said anything about it, they would be at fault.
These countries are rightfully concerned about the safety of their people and having control of the sea that borders a large part of your country is paramount to national security.
because USA is always lurking the background trying to start shit lol.
otherwise these small asian countries wouldn't even dare to let off a fart in these islands since china can run them over in a few weeks.
We need to stop pretending like China is a military super power. The Chinese army is underfunded, overstaffed and gravely lacks experienced soldiers and more crucially, experienced officers.
It is a very old and outdated army. Most of what it lacks is mobility. The Chinese army couldn't overun these countries even in a matter of years. They don't have the naval and aerial power to gain absolute control over the area and they lack the mobility to transport enough soldiers across water.
China has an undeserved reputation for being some kind of military super power. Currently China is a regional power but no greater then the Korean/Japanese/Australian trinity. It lacks the ability to project it's forces.
If China decides to go to war it will only end in humiliation. Similar to when the USSR invaded Finland.
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On June 19 2011 05:19 Damian wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 05:17 FenneK wrote:
why the fuck would these small asian countries try to provoke china? Because they are backed by the USA and have a common "enemy"/target.
Bullshit.
The US couldn't give less a shit about Vietnam. They might give moral support to the Philippines , but definitely won't engage militarily.
The US nominally trying to keep the peace, but they won't be able to stop a military conflict between China and Vietnam, nor will they be inclined step in.
The United States would sooner help China than Vietnam if only because there is absolutely no way they would side with Vietnam.
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On June 19 2011 05:14 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 05:03 Qi wrote:On June 19 2011 04:56 hypercube wrote:On June 19 2011 04:40 Qi wrote:On June 19 2011 04:34 hypercube wrote:On June 19 2011 04:21 Qi wrote:Original Message From GertHeart:
You seem to be a bit manipulated by your own government, or even your own mind. Learn your countries dark secrets, every country has them, the US used to kill groups of people off back in the 30's-70's just because they though they were communist supports, and that was a military style of execution. At one time they killed nearly 300 people in a small village. As well as poisoning many others.
You know yourself China has a lot of dark secrets, people of lower level, farmers, etc.. have no life, and are kept there, or students who take exams are taught to not think out of the box, and if they fail their life is almost over. Or further more they prefer workers not thinkers. The Chinese government is worse than the Russian Mafia run government, individuals not only have no say, but aren't even pawns, they are considered to be less than even tools. As internet exists you can find these truths out on your own, on the open web, or need be the underweb
I've read your posts, and you are quite blind to the actual truth, if you want to be a sheep the rest of your life so be it. Or if you would rather be a sheep and know the truth, then at least seek it. I got this via PM but I want this out in the open. Let me say first thank you GertHeart for your concern for me to know about my government, but I assure you I am on the streets of China along with other students and protesters fighting the police to raise awareness on Tibet, government censor, and other ills of the government while you are somewhere out there. Second, this is not about the evils of Chinese government. This is about territories that have been historically part of China when no one even knows they existed yet. Being polite, respectful and well-spoken is only the first step in having a meaningful discussion. At some point you have to consider positions that are different from yours. Even allow the possiblility that they might be correct and you might be at least partially wrong. If not, there's no discussion, just people repeating their positions over and over. And even if they are doing it politely and respectfully it's still a waste of their time. This goes both for the statement that historical texts prove these islands are China's and the wider issue of China's government being a force for good or evil in international politics (which, like it or not will affect how people will react to claims like these). When we discuss US policy on stem cell research do we bring up the Civil War or the massacre of the Native Americans? No. Same thing here. We may digress, but it bears nothing to the issue at hand. A better analogy is bringing up the history of US interventions during the cold war whenever a American diplomatic initiative is discussed. It can be taken too far, but it happens and it is relevant in some situations. You didn't address my other point though. Are you interested in a discussion or your ONLY goal is to declare your own position? US interventions during the cold was is DIRECTLY related to American diplomatic initiatives. How is territorial claim over an island against a foreign country/countries related to China's evil state policies? Answer that please. If there's no way to definitely decide who is right it ultimately comes down to the question whether Chinese dominance in the region is desirable or not. And please do not ignore the other question this time. Are you interested in a discussion (based on considering others' position) or are you just here to advertise your position?
You wont even answer a clearly worded question.
To answer you clearly, I have been respectful and open so far. What I don't get is people like you who'd rather talk about off tangent things like the evils Chinese government than what this OP is about. Clear now?
Write something that is actually related to the OP then we can have a discussion. And. to be clear again, the OP is: Nansha is historically, for more than 2000 years, part of China. Anything for or against that?
Sorry I have to be frank, I can't stand bad logic, pretense, and ad hominem that you are doing calling me out to answer your impertinent question and pretending it's that most important thing in the world but when I call you out on an actually directly related to the OP question you come up with these "there's no way to definitely decide who is right" "Chinese dominance in the region is desirable or not" obscurity.
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It would appear that unless someone has tried to dispute the land with China by force, or if there is some tribe of no names living there somehow, China's claim to it is the most reasonable.
Though China has put itself into this predicament by being totalitarian assholes, but good businessmen.
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On June 19 2011 05:22 dangots0ul wrote:
"Please no hate and ignorant posts.
Limit the discussion to facts and educated opinion.
Thanks"
Please don't say this then say "undeniable". You clearly do not understand what that means.
What is not undeniable about 2000 years worth of records. Oh God should I reply to every uninformed one-liners like this...
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On June 19 2011 05:25 Consolidate wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 05:19 Damian wrote:On June 19 2011 05:17 FenneK wrote:
why the fuck would these small asian countries try to provoke china? Because they are backed by the USA and have a common "enemy"/target. Bullshit. The US couldn't give less a shit about Vietnam. They might give moral support to the Philippines , but definitely won't engage militarily. The US nominally trying to keep the peace, but they won't be able to stop a military conflict between China and Vietnam, nor will they be inclined step in. The United States would sooner help China than Vietnam if only because there is absolutely no way they would side with Vietnam.
well for now, USA backs them on paper. Things like alliance always change when shit actually goes down.
something everyone needs to understand here is nobody wants to go to war. they are just trying to push their limits until someone shows with with guns and cannons waiting to fire. (like the recent north korea saga)
only reason USA is looking around the south western asia region is trying to find a location for another base to "contain" china. Its easy to infer that just from hillary clintons comment about the situation. she constantly tries to be a mediator for the 2 sides when china has express time and time again that USA needs to stay out of it.
in the end everything will likely stay the way it is after it blows over in a few weeks until the next time someone feels cavalier.
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On June 19 2011 05:28 Qi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 05:22 dangots0ul wrote:
"Please no hate and ignorant posts.
Limit the discussion to facts and educated opinion.
Thanks"
Please don't say this then say "undeniable". You clearly do not understand what that means. What is not undeniable about 2000 years worth of records. Oh God should I reply to every uninformed one-liners like this...
Records don't mean anything, as can be seen in the middle east. It is merely a means to rationalize a claim. In the end, it comes down to power to take what one wants. It would be interesting to see a perosn from the Philippines repüort on the Philippine reasons for claiming the Islands. They would probabaly have an equally long list of equally meaningless reasons.
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Hmm, this is very interesting. Thanks for making this thread. Much ignorance abounds, but the topic is still worthy of discussion.
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Also, a bit off topic. There is too much media influence going on here.
China is not exactly the repressive totalitarian idiot that it was 100 or 50 years ago. It is prosperous now, and relatively moving towards gradual openness. There are struggles, particularly on information, but otherwise, it is no worse that Singapore in terms of state policies and control.
It is a BIG struggle for sure, but not that I imagine most of you are imagining it to be.
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On June 19 2011 05:28 Qi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 05:22 dangots0ul wrote:
"Please no hate and ignorant posts.
Limit the discussion to facts and educated opinion.
Thanks"
Please don't say this then say "undeniable". You clearly do not understand what that means. What is not undeniable about 2000 years worth of records. Oh God should I reply to every uninformed one-liners like this...
If that was the case, Canada, the USA, Mexico, and many countries in South America would be very, very different than they are now..... There's undeniable evidence that native americans owned the land long before Europeans showed up and basically stole it.
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On June 19 2011 05:32 trucejl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 05:25 Consolidate wrote:On June 19 2011 05:19 Damian wrote:On June 19 2011 05:17 FenneK wrote:
why the fuck would these small asian countries try to provoke china? Because they are backed by the USA and have a common "enemy"/target. Bullshit. The US couldn't give less a shit about Vietnam. They might give moral support to the Philippines , but definitely won't engage militarily. The US nominally trying to keep the peace, but they won't be able to stop a military conflict between China and Vietnam, nor will they be inclined step in. The United States would sooner help China than Vietnam if only because there is absolutely no way they would side with Vietnam. well for now, USA backs them on paper. Things like alliance always change when shit actually goes down. something everyone needs to understand here is nobody wants to go to war. they are just trying to push their limits until someone shows with with guns and cannons waiting to fire. (like the recent north korea saga) only reason USA is looking around the south western asia region is trying to find a location for another base to "contain" china. Its easy to infer that just from hillary clintons comment about the situation. she constantly tries to be a mediator for the 2 sides when china has express time and time again that USA needs to stay out of it. in the end everything will likely stay the way it is after it blows over in a few weeks until the next time someone feels cavalier.
Hillary Clinton is actually retarded.
I used to have the faintest respect for her due her due to the presumption of her 'toughness', but every time I hear her talk, its like hearing a news pundit spew cliched talking points.
I'm convinced that she's pretty ill-qualified to manage the situation.
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On June 19 2011 05:36 Impervious wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 05:28 Qi wrote:On June 19 2011 05:22 dangots0ul wrote:
"Please no hate and ignorant posts.
Limit the discussion to facts and educated opinion.
Thanks"
Please don't say this then say "undeniable". You clearly do not understand what that means. What is not undeniable about 2000 years worth of records. Oh God should I reply to every uninformed one-liners like this... If that was the case, Canada, the USA, Mexico, and many countries in South America would be very, very different than they are now..... There's undeniable evidence that native americans owned the land long before Europeans showed up and basically stole it.
Even so at least that entails occupation of said territories there is no real occupation of the islands so even make such a claim.
On June 19 2011 05:28 Qi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 05:22 dangots0ul wrote:
"Please no hate and ignorant posts.
Limit the discussion to facts and educated opinion.
Thanks"
Please don't say this then say "undeniable". You clearly do not understand what that means. What is not undeniable about 2000 years worth of records. Oh God should I reply to every uninformed one-liners like this...
Well to that claim then all claims made in the past are 100% legit. Also previous agreements among governments are still in progress so the Germany of pre WWI pre WWII and post WWII are all the same under such an assumption. Furthermore they only made claim to the island by themselves? And that's okay becuase the surrounding civilians weren't are developed. So under such an assumption india is still part of the British empire oh yeah and the british empire still exists apparently it's just called the UK same king and queen as ever ruling the country.
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On June 19 2011 05:33 Electric.Jesus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2011 05:28 Qi wrote:On June 19 2011 05:22 dangots0ul wrote:
"Please no hate and ignorant posts.
Limit the discussion to facts and educated opinion.
Thanks"
Please don't say this then say "undeniable". You clearly do not understand what that means. What is not undeniable about 2000 years worth of records. Oh God should I reply to every uninformed one-liners like this... Records don't mean anything, as can be seen in the middle east. It is merely a means to rationalize a claim. In the end, it comes down to power to take what one wants. It would be interesting to see a perosn from the Philippines repüort on the Philippine reasons for claiming the Islands. They would probabaly have an equally long list of equally meaningless reasons.
truth. as long as china holds this claim, it will be hard for many western countries to get involved without a logical argument for either side. Besides the countries involved, no other country in the world has the right to get involved should a conflict happens. And we all know who would win that.
China is simply doing what the USA has been doing for years around the world. Use whatever claim (excuse) they can muster to get involved with whatever.
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If China has "undeniable claims" why are so many people denying them?
From what I can see China is not in great proximity to the islands and just because a monk took a piss and set up a tent there 2000 years ago doesn't give the country a title deed.
It's hardly surprising most countries are telling China to go fuck itself. The only thing thats stopped people in the past seems to be the fact that you don't easily provoke the big guy.
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EPT
