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On April 22 2011 17:46 Mailing wrote:
Suggested this weeks ago and people said it was a stupid idea =/
Gateways already SHOULD make units faster than warpgates.
Warpgates should make units SLOWER because it has instant reinforcements. This would allow protoss to even play a macro gateway style where they never even get warpgates because they build units faster off gateways and can defend easier, but cannot be super aggressive.
I remember that! Wasn't it closed as a balance whine? 
Anyway, I'm not sure about this. 2 gates will definitely suck.
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my friend got to 3000pt diamond doing the 5 zealot rush every game.... id hate for him to get to masters cause zealots build faster now D:
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I can see this dramatically affecting pvz and pvt unfortunately. The way the balance is set up right now, just going "cruncher" style and kinda turtling to 200/200 and attacking is the best way to play in pvz. Will being able to get out units faster make this style even more outrageously strong? PvT is this way to an even greater extent, you're pretty much defending and have to stay in your nat and defend drops until you attack with big tech units and upgrades. I was excited about this at first, but I think a much less dramatic fix for the pvp problem would be reducing robotics and/or immortal build times. Immortals kinda suck hard vs terran, and nobody really bitches about how powerful immortals are. It's not like there's such a thing as a sick robotics timing rush, reducing the build time of robotics would make 4 gate pretty easily stoppable.
And of course there might be some retarded cheese that comes from this, I don't know how I feel about it.
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The problem of 4 warpgate PvP is that P cannot defend like Zerg and Terran.
Zerg and Terran can defend 4 Gate. Why?
Because they have a defensive structure out of their first building: Spawning Pool and Barracks.
Spawning Pool: I can make spine crawlers, and I can move them around creep.
Barracks: I can make bunkers, and I can get money back and make them in another place.
Gateway: I can only make units. No defensive structure out of it.
The defensive structure for the Protoss is in the Forge, and if the P player goes spend 150 minerals in it, they also are immobille.
So, what is the solution to defend 4 Gate? Another 4 Gate.
The possible solution:
- Some defensive structure out of Gateway for Protoss;
- Put the Photon Cannon available in Gateway, and the detection as a requeriment in Forge. I dont think this is a good chance, by the way.
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On April 24 2011 08:36 LancasterBR wrote:
The possible solution:
- Some defensive structure out of Gateway for Protoss;
- Put the Photon Cannon available in Gateway, and the detection as a requeriment in Forge. I dont think this is a good chance, by the way.
SHIELD BATTERY!!!!!
(though maybe not, because you could theoretically use it offensively just as easily, maybe have its regeneration rate based on the # of pylons powering it?)
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it would be so awsoe to see macro game PvP or whait colosus wars : d?
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Lol do people not see that this wont work?
With 4 gate you're already spending all your money. The defender still wouldnt have an advantage.
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How about making it so a pylon has to transform to be able to warp units into its field? It can be free and take only 5-10 seconds, but its HP is reduced to ~50. That would make warp gate rushes easily stoppable if the proxy pylon is too close or undefended.
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On April 24 2011 01:54 HaXXspetten wrote:
... unless you could somehow make a change that would only affect PvP, but now we're getting into the realm of ridiculousness.
But there is. Don't allow units to be warped in on ramps (which gives sight and allows units to be warped onto the high ground), then one FF could stop the early pressure PvP like it does in PvZ and PvT. Problem solved.
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This seemed like a good idea at first, and I was feeling awesome inside, as I'm making a switch from Terran to Protoss and the only thing I didn't like was PvP, and this felt like it would fix it....until I realized 2 gate proxy would be very powerful, or maybe there is going to be a 4 gate proxy that will pwn everything
Can't really say anything until we see how this works, and have exact numbers. It sounds like it might be a good idea to keep gateways instead of warp gates for a while, and will most likely change the entire metagame.
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I still think proxies will be extreme strong.. early zealot pressure on close positions will be hard for zergs to handle once again.
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On April 24 2011 11:27 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 01:54 HaXXspetten wrote:
... unless you could somehow make a change that would only affect PvP, but now we're getting into the realm of ridiculousness. But there is. Don't allow units to be warped in on ramps (which gives sight and allows units to be warped onto the high ground), then one FF could stop the early pressure PvP like it does in PvZ and PvT. Problem solved.
^^^ this, it is astounding how few people acknowledge this. It may be an incomplete fix but it is a start. All these whack ideas about nexus warp ins etc, changing the while wg/gateway dynamic. Please blizzard just make it so you can't warp in on the ramp and see how players adapt
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This is going to be very, very bad for Z's if blizzard ends up implementing this. 2 gate is going to be deadly. proxy or no proxy.
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On April 24 2011 08:36 LancasterBR wrote:
The problem of 4 warpgate PvP is that P cannot defend like Zerg and Terran.
Zerg and Terran can defend 4 Gate. Why?
Because they have a defensive structure out of their first building: Spawning Pool and Barracks.
Spawning Pool: I can make spine crawlers, and I can move them around creep.
Barracks: I can make bunkers, and I can get money back and make them in another place.
Gateway: I can only make units. No defensive structure out of it.
The defensive structure for the Protoss is in the Forge, and if the P player goes spend 150 minerals in it, they also are immobille.
So, what is the solution to defend 4 Gate? Another 4 Gate.
The possible solution:
- Some defensive structure out of Gateway for Protoss;
- Put the Photon Cannon available in Gateway, and the detection as a requeriment in Forge. I dont think this is a good chance, by the way.
There is it's called a sentry/forcefueld but with the ramp warp in mechanics it doesn't work in the pvp match up
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I think Blizzard are very aware of the danger of buffing 2-gate. I would not be surprised if they avoid buffing zealot time.
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On April 24 2011 12:50 spacemonkeyy wrote:
There is it's called a sentry/forcefueld but with the ramp warp in mechanics it doesn't work in the pvp match up
So the solution is to not allow units to warp in on ramps. And then you can hold with forcefields. PvP fixed.
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On April 24 2011 13:24 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 12:50 spacemonkeyy wrote:
There is it's called a sentry/forcefueld but with the ramp warp in mechanics it doesn't work in the pvp match up
So the solution is to not allow units to warp in on ramps. And then you can hold with forcefields. PvP fixed.
Lol I agreed with you 2 posts up
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On April 24 2011 08:38 Drowsy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 08:36 LancasterBR wrote:
The possible solution:
- Some defensive structure out of Gateway for Protoss;
- Put the Photon Cannon available in Gateway, and the detection as a requeriment in Forge. I dont think this is a good chance, by the way. SHIELD BATTERY!!!!! (though maybe not, because you could theoretically use it offensively just as easily, maybe have its regeneration rate based on the # of pylons powering it?)
Now this is an idea that I can get behind.
Apparently, Protoss used to have this support building known as the Obelisk and later known as the Dark Obelisk that could recharge shields and mana in addition to chronoboost. It got cut, and chornoboost got moved to the Nexus.
The best fix would fix PvP while leaving PvT and PvZ alone, perhaps adding a PvP-only defender's advantage of some sort.
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A better fix is.
Increase the stalkers stats.
Decrease Zealot build time in Gateways.
Move Sentries to robo with Hallucinate pre-researched.
Require a Twilight Council for warpgate tech.
Require DTs and HTs to be built only in Gateways.
Remove Dark Shrine.
Return K Amulet.
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On April 24 2011 13:51 KingAce wrote:
A better fix is.
Increase the stalkers stats.
Decrease Zealot build time in Gateways.
Move Sentries to robo with Hallucinate pre-researched.
Require a Twilight Council for warpgate tech.
Require DTs and HTs to be built only in Gateways.
Remove Dark Shrine.
Return K Amulet.
And break the other two match ups?
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EPT
