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On April 24 2011 13:51 KingAce wrote:
A better fix is.
Increase the stalkers stats.
Decrease Zealot build time in Gateways.
Move Sentries to robo with Hallucinate pre-researched.
Require a Twilight Council for warpgate tech.
Require DTs and HTs to be built only in Gateways.
Remove Dark Shrine.
Return K Amulet.
The only parts I really agree with are:
Remove Dark Shrine
Return K Amulet (In a nerfed form, like +20 energy or something)
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Even if they change the ramp warp-in thing, PvP would return to war of the worlds. Is that really what people want? At least 4 gate games are over quickly. The matchup is destined to be torturous to play no matter what.
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I always thought a solution might be to make warpgate warpins only usable within a certain radius like a sensor tower or something... using the cyb core, nexus or some other building as the center, or some other mechanism all together... and then a warp prism would be immune to warpgate range, making it a more important unit, just my 2 cents
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On April 24 2011 14:46 AndAgain wrote:
Even if they change the ramp warp-in thing, PvP would return to war of the worlds. Is that really what people want? At least 4 gate games are over quickly. The matchup is destined to be torturous to play no matter what.
Not really, but in those situations it really seems like whoever attacks first loses, because attacking into a fortified position is usually always a crapshoot, since his colossus will always get a shot of first on your units, weakening them severely.
I think there are some unexplored variations of PvP, but I really think if you open Phoenix or something similar, you are going to be behind, unless you somehow have dealt crippling damage to them earlier in the game
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On April 24 2011 14:46 AndAgain wrote:
Even if they change the ramp warp-in thing, PvP would return to war of the worlds. Is that really what people want? At least 4 gate games are over quickly. The matchup is destined to be torturous to play no matter what.
expanding would actually work sometimes if colo was the default strat instead of 4gate in pvp, also blink stalker is just as common as colo if the game doesnt end on 4 gating.
the only serious problem i see would be the build order rng being more of a problem than it is right now unless the change pushed the meta into fast robos for both ppl normally.
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They certainly can alleviate the issue but it won't ever be fixed. If it is nerfed to the point where pvp doesn't end up being a 4 gate fest, then it will severly cripple pvt and pvz. Even the warpin to the high ground thing is necessary cause that sees interesting use in other matchups. Its and inherent problem in the warpin mechanic, and we will jsut have to deal with it.
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On April 24 2011 16:45 Alver wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 14:46 AndAgain wrote:
Even if they change the ramp warp-in thing, PvP would return to war of the worlds. Is that really what people want? At least 4 gate games are over quickly. The matchup is destined to be torturous to play no matter what. expanding would actually work sometimes if colo was the default strat instead of 4gate in pvp, also blink stalker is just as common as colo if the game doesnt end on 4 gating. the only serious problem i see would be the build order rng being more of a problem than it is right now unless the change pushed the meta into fast robos for both ppl normally.
I almost always go for 1 base colossus and when I see that my opponent has expanded, I breath a sign of relief as the win has been secured. If you sacrifice colossus production or even just a few zealots for expansion, you're in a world of hurt.
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3-4 gates into colo does great against extremely late expo, i wont deny that. its pretty much exactly how pvp works right now
if you could get up an expo 3minutes before colossus range is finished thought things might be different. if you had blink by then it might be different also. theres almost no build order variation right now in pvp and just seems like nothing works but the other 2 mirrors can actually fit in expos in a reasonable amount of time and the reason p cant has 10x more to do with warpgate than colossus.
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Im just thinking of an idea, feel free to quote and comment whether its terrible or not.
How bout we do add a field around the nexus but make this field increase cooldowns of gateways that are warping in units, e.g. a proxy pylon would warping in units near the nexus would result in the gateways getting 4 second additional cooldown on them or something. This wouldnt effect any other MU and would give PVP ONLY a defender advantage. Yes this would nerf the 4 gate push but it would mean that its not as effective and easier to hold off and i dont see lategame PVP using proxy pylons and if you do, defender advantage would come into play again.
Also even if they decided to place the pylon out of the range, you would have to move all warped in units towards the enemy base which is essentially giving another defender advantage.
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Make cybernetics core unlock shield battery. Shield battery recharges shields for defending Protoss.
Problem solved.
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I don't think it's that big of a deal, I don't 4 gate ever, unless they FE or go 1 gate robo , I do gas steal into defensive 3 gate most of the time
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didn't they patch zealot to be faster build time because of warp-gate switch build? (it was faster to warp in zealots, then switch to gateway, then build.. then switch to warpgate and warp-in again)
oh well.. can't really complain about this change, but i doubt that collosus king build is going anywhere...
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On April 24 2011 20:32 Minigun wrote:
I don't think it's that big of a deal, I don't 4 gate ever, unless they FE or go 1 gate robo , I do gas steal into defensive 3 gate most of the time
you're right... u just cannon rush me every game...
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i think it will make pvz openings more viable, as with pvt too.
pvp is just an added bonus, but who knows, maybe it will be worse than what we currently have.
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On April 24 2011 20:44 x6Paramore wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 20:32 Minigun wrote:
I don't think it's that big of a deal, I don't 4 gate ever, unless they FE or go 1 gate robo , I do gas steal into defensive 3 gate most of the time you're right... u just cannon rush me every game...
I don't take ladder seriously.
Find one cannon rush I do in a turny 
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People seem to really be missing the point of this change and the fact their are 2 parts too it namely the longer WG time is a PvP change ment to allow the anti 4gate build more time to prepare and increase the success rate while still allowing a good 4gate a chance to win.
The second part is related to PvZ and PvT and it allows a Protoss player to still get an army to defend any early attacks while WG is researched and this bit is actually a bit of a buff. The main concern is that a buff to Zealot build time would bring back 2gate proxy etc but i doubt that Zealot build time wil be decreased just sentry and stalker so that the 2 gates etc dont come back not unless 2 gate proxy sentries after cyber core is an imba strat.
This is a simple change that dosnt require changing how the game works or completly changing protoss in the middle of WoL which lets be honest will never happen any major race changes will come in the expansions.
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i think the idea of gateway build time being reduced is an awesome idea, we can finally move a little more freely around the map during the early stages, maybe have a timing as threatening as early pools, and since they're trading it for 4gate all ins, it will be less of any easy win, but some actual early pressure without having to proxy gate.
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I do really hate pvp and a change to the warp gate mechanic would be a good idea but I don't have faith that blizzard will do the right change. Personally and I'm speaking from not the most skilled perspective...I think the warp gates should be a mid game tool and not something to be rushed too. I think gateway units should build at a reduced rate and let's say warp gate requires a twilight council or something but warp gates no longer change the cool down for build times. That way it is not a necessary upgrade or tech path just a strong tool in the Protoss arsenal. I'd also like them to do something with colossi it is for the most part a necessary tech in all three match ups and I hate making them. Since you can no longer warp gate rush with this kind of change there could be a slight buff to gateway units and if our lower tier units are better a nerf to colossi might be possible and if colossi aren't as good maybe they'll give us Khaydarin Amulet back and put a cool down on storm instead.....probably not.
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Man I seriously laugh at these ~50 pages of theorycrafting.
I mean seriously, Blizzard hasn't actually even given any patch notes or anything yet, just "Yeah we are working on something to fix PvP."
I wish that mod that had originally posted this news would not have mentioned any details, because now we get this huge shitstorm of theorycrafting that happens before every single patch (OMG amulet, OMG roaches, OMG my bunker build time, OMG how will I have zealots out in time for cheese, OMG my reapers, OMG my rax at 6 supply, etc), when in reality people will still play the game no matter what Blizzard will fill their patch notes with.
EDIT: Unless of course I am an idiot and missed something from the thread, lol.
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On April 22 2011 17:39 Surreal wrote:
Hmm.. i have to think hard about this..
I understand that this might favor gateways in certain situations over warpgates.. but how does this "not affect" warpgates vs other races..?
I believe the idea is to make warpgate research long enough that, even with constant chrono boost, fast immortal/colossus tech would be able to stop a 4 gate or at least be even with micro involved. The reason it won't change other matchups significantly is because a 4gate is still a 4gate. With the gateway low tier build times reduced, you'd still be able to get the same amount of units by the time you want to do your 4gate push, you'll just have to make more while they're initially gateways.
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EPT
