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On April 24 2011 16:54 DragonDefonce wrote:
They certainly can alleviate the issue but it won't ever be fixed. If it is nerfed to the point where pvp doesn't end up being a 4 gate fest, then it will severly cripple pvt and pvz. Even the warpin to the high ground thing is necessary cause that sees interesting use in other matchups. Its and inherent problem in the warpin mechanic, and we will jsut have to deal with it.
What kind of interesting uses does warpin on high ground have except for retarded all-ins like VRay + 3/4gate?
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On April 25 2011 00:56 Mercury- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 16:54 DragonDefonce wrote:
They certainly can alleviate the issue but it won't ever be fixed. If it is nerfed to the point where pvp doesn't end up being a 4 gate fest, then it will severly cripple pvt and pvz. Even the warpin to the high ground thing is necessary cause that sees interesting use in other matchups. Its and inherent problem in the warpin mechanic, and we will jsut have to deal with it. What kind of interesting uses does warpin on high ground have except for retarded all-ins like VRay + 3/4gate?
Getting a DT in using Hallu or Obs to spot.
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What you suggested and what Blizzard is testing is totally different.
It's easy and brainless to just increase the WG research time. Blizzard acknowledges that just doing that will break the game. Note that Blizzard actually thinks and try to come up with a solution that does not heavily pressures Protoss before WG is done if the research time increases. Unfortunately, a lot of people (me included) think that it will break other things instead.
Fortunately, Blizzard said that it is one of the thing they are testing and they are exploring further options.
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The fact is that nobody even gave my idea a chance, or tried to work it out a little bit. It was instantly shut down because it wasn't directly from Blizzard. Hypocrites.
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On April 22 2011 17:46 Mailing wrote:
Suggested this weeks ago and people said it was a stupid idea =/
Gateways already SHOULD make units faster than warpgates.
Warpgates should make units SLOWER because it has instant reinforcements. This would allow protoss to even play a macro gateway style where they never even get warpgates because they build units faster off gateways and can defend easier, but cannot be super aggressive.
It's my belief those who propose this are confused. I suppose it's thought that if you make both gateways and warpgates viable then you create a choice for which one to use and therefore decision making becomes more important, and so on.
Actually, there are various problems with this, first of all that you can simply add choices to be made and that the game will be richer for it, when there is such a thing as unintuitive and painful choices to be made that aren't fun; and second that there isn't already a lot of choice in how you use warpgates. To compare, nobody builds an overlord purely for scouting purposes, rather, you have them for food and then you can also do other things with them. Similarly, you might get a medivac to make your army stronger and then also get use out of them by dropping your opponent. With warpgates Blizzard made them so strong you have to get them, but this doesn't remove choice, as now you can go a lot more in-depth on how you want to use your warpgate, where you want to build pylons and so on. By focusing protoss gameplay more, you could create deeper gameplay, rather than having people constantly be afraid to even use warpgates out of fear of lack of efficiency, so that you have even more of deathball-oriented gameplay.
Another issue is that warpgates are harder to use than gateways. You can't queue up units, so there will always be some additional time beyond the cooldown. This is the primary reason for why the build time is lower with warpgates, actually. Second, you can't remotely control warpgates through hotkeys as you can gateways; rather you need to devote screentime to warping something in.
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I do think there are severe problems with warpgates:
a) dropdefense becomes easy when you have a lot of warpgates
b) in PvP base defense through probes counts for nothing, as losing income means your opponent can reinforce more quickly than you
c) your opponent loses the defender's advantage from quicker reinforcements
To change this Blizzard really ought to so severely warpgate tech that using it in any kind of offensive (or defensive) manner becomes so hard as to make it a real decision whether you want to warp units right next to your army or whether you want to warp them merely nearby and move them over manually.
A couple of fixes could be to let warping units take additional damage, let destroying the pylon that provides power to units be meaningful (you don't get cost or cooldown back), make warping in take longer. Additionally, in order to prevent the effect where gateway units need to be less powerful to compensate for the removal of the defender's advantage, you can let warpgate tech come so late that it's expected your army's power doesn't lie solely with gateway units anymore. So perhaps, the warpgate morph time could be increased, or the research time and cost could also be increased.
Personally I think that warpgate is a crutch for many protosses and that if it was somewhat changed, that then there would be more room for some interesting design by Blizzard.
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On April 25 2011 01:58 Grumbels wrote:
[Personally I think that warpgate is a crutch for many protosses and that if it was somewhat changed, that then there would be more room for some interesting design by Blizzard.
I wouldn't descrbe warpgate tech as a crutch. Each race has built in mechanics that are very powerful. The ability to build as many mutalisks as you have larva as soon as the spire pops for Zerg is an amazing advantage (if you build a stargate, you can build exactly 1 void ray when it finishes, with a spire the number is limited only to resources and larva). The ability to drop down mules, scans, or supplies and build planetary fortresses is amazing too.
The point is, each race has weaknesses and strengths. We like to whine about the strengths, but we often don't look at the weaknesses. Protoss units in generally would need buffs and more mobility (Protoss units in general lack mobility except for the Stalker and Pheonix, and the Stalker is a "Ranged Support Unit" that lacks DPS, and the Pheonix has limited uses) if warpgate tech was taken away. Just like Terran units would need to cost less and detection would have to be more readily available in their tech tree if Terrans couldn't build Orbitals.
These could be described as crutches, but they are the strengths of each race, and naturally players lean on their strengths. And I think these strengths are what makes the game interesting.
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Increasing the WG time won't drastically break the matchup in other matches such as PvZ or PvT. (Taking into consideration that these are large maps.)
As long as it's handled right their shouldn't be any issues.
Making a toss player think more cautiously on what to chrono boost early game is important.
Do I chorno boost probes? -----> Economy
Should I chrono boost my first set off gateway units?-------> Safety
Do I need to bank my chrono boost to fully boost my WG research rate?-----> WG push
If WG time is increased it will create other paths that a toss might have to consider.
With the chrono boost ability I can't see how Toss can suffer with a WG time setback if, Toss still has the options to increase the rate in which his initial units are produced via chrono boost.
A lot of people were complaining about one base all ins, and demanding bigger maps, for more macro oriented style games. My question is why would only one race be allowed to be able to all in effectively on any map?
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So... we exchange 4gate cheese with 2gate cheese? Awesome.
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i think this is going to affect pvt SOO much. i may be entirely wrong but right now early game terran needs those extra units they can get over the toss to stay even with them with reduction to both stim and warp gate doesn't that mean that terrans going to be alot weaker vs toss early game if the gatewya build times are reduced 0.o. not to mention chrono boost already gives toss and extra unit or 2 if constantly boosting 1 gate
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On April 25 2011 02:26 lundell100 wrote:
So... we exchange 4gate cheese with 2gate cheese? Awesome.
Exactly. 2 gate would be so strong that it would be hard to stop. If the protoss chooses not to 2 gate then they would have to play defensively because they cant reinforce and their crappy gatway units would get slaughtered.
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On April 25 2011 02:40 us.insurgency wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 02:26 lundell100 wrote:
So... we exchange 4gate cheese with 2gate cheese? Awesome. Exactly. 2 gate would be so strong that it would be hard to stop. If the protoss chooses not to 2 gate then they would have to play defensively because they cant reinforce and their crappy gatway units would get slaughtered.
Ever played SC BW?
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On April 25 2011 02:09 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 01:58 Grumbels wrote:
[Personally I think that warpgate is a crutch for many protosses and that if it was somewhat changed, that then there would be more room for some interesting design by Blizzard. I wouldn't descrbe warpgate tech as a crutch. Each race has built in mechanics that are very powerful. The ability to build as many mutalisks as you have larva as soon as the spire pops for Zerg is an amazing advantage (if you build a stargate, you can build exactly 1 void ray when it finishes, with a spire the number is limited only to resources and larva). The ability to drop down mules, scans, or supplies and build planetary fortresses is amazing too. The point is, each race has weaknesses and strengths. We like to whine about the strengths, but we often don't look at the weaknesses. Protoss units in generally would need buffs and more mobility (Protoss units in general lack mobility except for the Stalker and Pheonix, and the Stalker is a "Ranged Support Unit" that lacks DPS, and the Pheonix has limited uses) if warpgate tech was taken away. Just like Terran units would need to cost less and detection would have to be more readily available in their tech tree if Terrans couldn't build Orbitals. These could be described as crutches, but they are the strengths of each race, and naturally players lean on their strengths. And I think these strengths are what makes the game interesting.
That's meaningless. You can call everything strong a race has a 'strength', that is a 'unique feature'. Warpgate could severely be nerfed, while still allowing you to use it for mobility. I call it a crutch because protoss is dependent on warpgates to make almost all of their offensive timings work, and they use it to make drop defense work too. These aspects could be weakened a bit, with other things designed to take their place, and this way protoss would ..certainly change, but I think for the best, since they would no longer be this dependent on a single mechanic.
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the problem is that Gateway Timings aren't balanced, every Minute your stay on Gateways you lose in the supply compared to your enemy.
PvP is just the most obvious because you can easily see how few units P gets until Warpgates kick in.
The whole Warpgate mechanic is what balances it.
you sure can decrease Gateway Unit Build times but this always has the risk of Proxy Gatebalance.
But if Warpgate Buildtimes aren't appliable to Gateways then, you can't force Protoss to stay on Gateways longer then necessary.
just compare what a Terran or Zerg can produce until the 5 minute mark, and compare that to what Protoss can get without Warpgates.
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As long as they tweak the numbers right, and I'm confident that they can with internal testing, I think this is a great change.
Always thought it was a little strange that there was absolutely no incentive to have Gateways once Warpgate finished researching, combined with the fact that Warpgate could be researched in the first 5 minutes of the game.
IMO it would be better for Protoss diversity and the game as a whole if Warpgate was more of a late-game research that improved map presence and mobility, while early-game Gateways are still the production of choice by producing a bit faster.
Again, it's up to Blizzard to get the balance right, ultimately.
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This might be interesting as it could lead to alot of switching back and forth between gateway and warpgates. Perhaps gateway when you're pumping units/defending, then switching to warpgates when you're on offense for better reinforce.
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Make sure to scout your bases, your expo, and even your third. Why? 2 gate proxy will have a huge spike in popularity. Chronoboosted zealots will change PvP. I have been facing more 2 gate zealot rushes more and more, maybe because they are anticipating the change? I don't know, but I think most of us will have to find a new PvP build because the 4 gate might go extinct. In the other match ups, the 4 gate is annoying and if you don't scout it properly, hard to stop.
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i just hope they don't go for the reaper approach, and do something along the lines of, Warp-gate tech now requires a Twilight Council.
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As someone suggested earlier, I would like to see a new upgrade next to warpgate research.
Something like Chronogate research, making possible to build T1/T1.5 units at faster rate than warpgate and without stacking with chronoboost (maybe lowering the extra % speed).
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Ok this thread is a joke all the comments are.
1. Protoss is easy to play
2. Zerg is Underpowered QQ
3. Protoss is IMBA QQ
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EPT
