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On April 24 2011 01:45 Disciple7 wrote:
I always thought it would be cool to just have opposing pylon fields cancel each other out so the offensive toss couldn't warp up onto the ramp. I'm kinda disappointed though, as PvP was my best MU =(.
Yeah, cuz that totally help Zerg and Terran, too.
If this game is ever going to have a real 'defenders' advantage' there needs to BE some advantage.
Right now, vs P, my only 'advantage' while defending is getting my ramp FF'd and having their army in my damn supply line killing my reinforcements piecemeal as they spawn.
It's not as bad against Terran because of their lack of mobility, but a squad of MMM stimming around my base and camping out on ramps pretty much negates any 'advantage' either. And if shit gets really bad for T? Load up the medivacs and GTFO. (Assuming they've killed off my AA already...which isn't hard)
There are so many ways the abilities, stats and types of units in Sc2, coupled with the map design combines to completely negate any defenders advantage that COULD exist.
DISCLAIMER: This gripe assume you ARE the defender, i.e: you've been pushed out of a forward/aggressive position and are somewhat on the back foot. So, any argument like "Well, just crush his push before it gets to that!" is not addressing the actual problem.
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On April 24 2011 01:57 Reithan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 01:45 Disciple7 wrote:
I always thought it would be cool to just have opposing pylon fields cancel each other out so the offensive toss couldn't warp up onto the ramp. I'm kinda disappointed though, as PvP was my best MU =(. Yeah, cuz that totally help Zerg and Terran, too. If this game is ever going to have a real 'defenders' advantage' there needs to BE some advantage. Right now, vs P, my only 'advantage' while defending is getting my ramp FF'd and having their army in my damn supply line killing my reinforcements piecemeal as they spawn. It's not as bad against Terran because of their lack of mobility, but a squad of MMM stimming around my base and camping out on ramps pretty much negates any 'advantage' either. And if shit gets really bad for T? Load up the medivacs and GTFO. (Assuming they've killed off my AA already...which isn't hard) There are so many ways the abilities, stats and types of units in Sc2, coupled with the map design combines to completely negate any defenders advantage that COULD exist. DISCLAIMER: This gripe assume you ARE the defender, i.e: you've been pushed out of a forward/aggressive position and are somewhat on the back foot. So, any argument like "Well, just crush his push before it gets to that!" is not addressing the actual problem.
Yeah, because 4gate is so hard to stop as T or Z....
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I don't really understand the complaints about PvP honestly... I just switched to random and I can say my PvP's have NOT been dominated by 4gates. In fact, 4gates have been rare. Instead I more often see defensive robo play.
Then people complain that PvP becomes a colossi spam fest, so I gave that a try. My opponent simply made a few phoenix and my colossi got crushed.
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On April 24 2011 01:57 Reithan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 01:45 Disciple7 wrote:
I always thought it would be cool to just have opposing pylon fields cancel each other out so the offensive toss couldn't warp up onto the ramp. I'm kinda disappointed though, as PvP was my best MU =(. Yeah, cuz that totally help Zerg and Terran, too. If this game is ever going to have a real 'defenders' advantage' there needs to BE some advantage. Right now, vs P, my only 'advantage' while defending is getting my ramp FF'd and having their army in my damn supply line killing my reinforcements piecemeal as they spawn. It's not as bad against Terran because of their lack of mobility, but a squad of MMM stimming around my base and camping out on ramps pretty much negates any 'advantage' either. And if shit gets really bad for T? Load up the medivacs and GTFO. (Assuming they've killed off my AA already...which isn't hard) There are so many ways the abilities, stats and types of units in Sc2, coupled with the map design combines to completely negate any defenders advantage that COULD exist. DISCLAIMER: This gripe assume you ARE the defender, i.e: you've been pushed out of a forward/aggressive position and are somewhat on the back foot. So, any argument like "Well, just crush his push before it gets to that!" is not addressing the actual problem.
Negates any defenders advantage? What are you on about? What is creep? Spine crawlers? queens? Bunkers? Harvesters? Spawning units attacking right away? Sieged tanks? Don't come tell that warp in negates defenders advantage, because that's not true.
That a lot of people here are more concerned about easier wins that better game balance is nothing new, but please, moderate yourselves.
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Poor Grubby, but Kas is just such a beast!
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On April 24 2011 02:35 jdseemoreglass wrote:
I don't really understand the complaints about PvP honestly... I just switched to random and I can say my PvP's have NOT been dominated by 4gates. In fact, 4gates have been rare. Instead I more often see defensive robo play.
Then people complain that PvP becomes a colossi spam fest, so I gave that a try. My opponent simply made a few phoenix and my colossi got crushed.
No offense, that would probably be because you're at a low level.
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On April 24 2011 02:35 jdseemoreglass wrote:
I don't really understand the complaints about PvP honestly... I just switched to random and I can say my PvP's have NOT been dominated by 4gates. In fact, 4gates have been rare. Instead I more often see defensive robo play.
Then people complain that PvP becomes a colossi spam fest, so I gave that a try. My opponent simply made a few phoenix and my colossi got crushed.
Perhaps PvP may not be a problem at lower levels, but it's a huge issue at high levels and even huger at the pro level, where 4gate is basically the standard PvP build in most major competitions.
People are tired of being guaranteed 4gate vs 4gate when watching their pro-level PvP matches. People are also tired of the people who abuse their way up the ladder by only pulling off crisply-timed 4gates.
It seems that this patch may be aimed at the upper levels and the pro scene more than at lower level PvP, especially since a well-practiced, well-timed 4gate is extremely difficult to defend even at high levels. Lower level players still have some sloppiness in their timings that make any tweaks irrelevant to their messy 4gates, though the exact timings of higher level 4gates will be severely impacted by whatever changes Blizzard is considering.
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Unfortunately, the idea where opponent pylon power canceled warping has been around since beta. If bliz wanted to do it, they would have by now.
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On April 24 2011 03:05 Two_DoWn wrote:
Unfortunately, the idea where opponent pylon power canceled warping has been around since beta. If bliz wanted to do it, they would have by now.
This applies to a great many things that are suggested CONSTANTLY.
Nerf Colossus, Add lurkers, Nerf 4gate, nerf warp-in, fix ultras, etc...
The thing is, there's an equally long list of things you could add to this list...except for the fact that Blizz has already implemented them. Blizz won't implement everything all at once, or YOUR pet nerf first. Just because they haven't done something "YET" doesn't mean they won't.
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not sure I like any change in numbers... the one thought that came to my head of why PvP is so volatile is because of the ability to warp into the base with vision. This is also a strat that affects the other matchups as well. My thought was change the warp in mechanic so you can only warp to where the pylon itself provides vision. So if you have a pylon on low ground you cant warp to high ground but on the contrary if you are able to get high ground then you can warp down. This would help protect the base from such a invasive ability but still remain very useful and strategical.
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If Blizzard overdoes the decreased build time of the units prior to warpgate this will inevitably lead to more frequent proxy gateways in all match-ups (including PvP). They dug themselves a hole with the warpgate functionality being introduced into the game period, and now resolving it for PvP without killing that match-up, and all others, is going to be a challenge to say the least. Good to see they're discussing it, but I don't think the answer is so simple.
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Let me sum this up:
[PvP] No more [unstoppable] 1-Gate-Proxy into 4-Gate
[PvP] No more [Zealot only] early 4/5-Horror-Gates
[PvP] No more basic 4-Gate "fear"
[PvP] "Real" Defenders-Advantage early game
[PvP] More potential for the better Player to win [Better early Macro/No overextending]
[PvX] Less Gateways to support same number of Units Early-Game
[PvT] Marauder-Rushes less scary
[PvT] Timing-Rushes are easier to defend, since you can have more Units Early-Game
[PvT] Easier for T and P to Early-Expand.
[PvZ] Easier to defend 6-Pool/10-Pool etc.
[PvZ] More potential for Early Aggression
[PvZ] Z does not have to prepare for a early 4-Gate and can get more Drones (which should be negated by the earlier aggression??)
Overall. I LOVE it!
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This is stupid how does this make it easier to defend 6pool and 10pools? We get units slower now meaning it will be much harder for early game cheeses
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I love that they're at least aware that 4gate is making the matchup less interesting than it could be (not necessarily broken, but that 1 build is dictating everything). I'll withhold judgment on the posted speculated changes until there's something concrete. I think the approach can work if they hit the right numbers on everything without causing too many issues in the other matchups.
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Yeay 2 gate proxy will own zerg once again!!!
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On April 24 2011 03:51 lunick wrote:
This is stupid how does this make it easier to defend 6pool and 10pools? We get units slower now meaning it will be much harder for early game cheeses
If you can get warpgates in time to defend 6 pool and 10 pool, please share your build order!
You will get your first few zealots/stalkers/sentries out sooner while you wait for warp gate to research.
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k nvm i misread it... I am going to love proxy gates now =) Good luck stopping like mass zealots now
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On April 24 2011 03:51 lunick wrote:
This is stupid how does this make it easier to defend 6pool and 10pools? We get units slower now meaning it will be much harder for early game cheeses
You do realise, that the building time of gateway-zealots will be decreased...
And even now, you can just defend a early-pool by chronoboosting 2 zealots (even without a wall-in).
Don't be stupid and read the OP before start hating.
Or do you fight a 6-pool with a early Warpgate?
If so, thumbs up. I wouldn't play anymore after losing so many games.
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On April 23 2011 19:26 FaZe wrote:
PvP isn't broken, it's just in a state right now where people haven't figured out a great response to the 4gate that doesn't involve making 4 gates yourself.
Hasn't it been that way since beta?
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On April 24 2011 04:01 Iatrik wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 03:51 lunick wrote:
This is stupid how does this make it easier to defend 6pool and 10pools? We get units slower now meaning it will be much harder for early game cheeses You do realise, that the building time of gateway-zealots will be decreased... And even now, you can just defend a early-pool by chronoboosting 2 zealots (even without a wall-in). Don't be stupid and read the OP before start hating. Or do you fight a 6-pool with a early Warpgate? If so, thumbs up. I wouldn't play anymore after losing so many games.
lol read the post above you dumbass. Assumptions make an ass out of you. So please, Don't be stupid and read the above post before start hating
User was warned for this post
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EPT
