EPTPvP is going to change in the next Patch ! - Page 17
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Existential
Australia2107 Posts
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On April 22 2011 22:35 TheAntZ wrote: Man, this thread turned into angsty terran crying fast considering its about PvP Indeed. Pretty much the entirety of their post can be summarized in the final sentence: We will address 4gate in the next patch. The perfect solution would give more variety to PvP without doing anything to the other matchups. Obviously, the fix they described was only an example of a possibility that they are looking into. Their final fix can be anything, possibly even utilizing the crazy ideas that people are throwing out in this thread and in other 4gate QQ threads. Even if it's ends up being a terrible idea, they will probably first test it on the PTR so that our whining has time to change stuff. | ||
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ihavetofartosis
1277 Posts
This nerf will further open up the viable strategies for every race, which is a very good thing. Took Blizzard forever, but at least it's finally here. | ||
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RedHelix
250 Posts
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On April 22 2011 22:32 Apolo wrote: @Huragius Only after Nani and Kiwi got to finals, and MC winning twice GSL, did complains start about Protoss. Before that it was seen as the weakest race. I ask you to think what change made that because for a lot of people seems like its clear that players have no merit for their wins. Was it the phoenix buff? Cheaper observer? Perhaps KA removal?  Protoss has never been considered the weakest race. The uber large maps probably have a lot to do with Toss currently being considered OP, since warpgates completely negate rush distance Toss has the option of doing all-ins as strong as on any other map or choose to lay back and build a deathball whilst profiting from Zerg and Terran still having to deal with the rush distance. Terran did fine against Toss before since their bio could be in their face early on, which is a lot harder on the current maps. Zerg doesn't really benefit from the larger maps because of the mentioned 0 rush distance and the fact that Toss' macro mechanics are good enough to not attack Zerg at all and just build an unbeatable ball of units. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
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DrNeon
United States5 Posts
I play Protoss occasionally in custom games (Though I ladder as Zerg), and everytime I ended up in a PvP I'd try to rush out an Immortal with 2gate sentries & early double gas. It felt like I could always get a reasonable amount of Zealots and Sentries out, but by the time the push hit, my second immortal was just about to finish. I've found that if the player executes the build well and attacks at the correct time, I'll generally barely fend off the initial push then die to the reinforcements. If, however, he is more than 25 seconds off, my odds of surviving dramatically increase by the second, After 25 seconds I can hold the push, after that I'm able to crush it, as immortals are actually somewhat effective against zealots in decent numbers, and definitely good against Stalkers in any case. I think delaying the 4gate is exactly what needs to be done, though it will make it a pretty bad build against Zerg and Terran. When a Z or T knows how to respond to it, they can hold it even at the standard time. With a delay being placed on it, it's reasonable to say that 4gate will no longer be a viable build in any reasonably high-level game. | ||
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Pelopidas
Canada225 Posts
I really hope that the same doesn't happen to the collosus, now that Zergs are starting to learn how to deal with new macro style Protoss, and + Show Spoiler + given the results of certain future tournaments. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On April 22 2011 22:42 ihavetofartosis wrote: Are people really crying about 4gate being nerfed? Really??? A skill-less build order which removes the opponents defender's advantage that can take ANYBODY to high diamond/low masters, is incredibly boring to watch, and has plagued PvP forever is finally being nerfed, shouldn't everyone be happy? I can't see anyone seriously upset about this unless it's their main build the majority of the time. This nerf will further open up the viable strategies for every race, which is a very good thing. Took Blizzard forever, but at least it's finally here. It's also a huge tool in the Protoss toolbox, and allows you to be a big threat and prevent players from playing as greedily, because they always have to be aware that you could 4 gate. Even if you don't actually 4 gate, the fact that you could is threatening. Taking that away is a pretty big nerf. | ||
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Striding Strider
United Kingdom787 Posts
On April 22 2011 22:37 Dingobloo wrote:And medivacs aren't useless without healing, but it crushes the synergy of the units with warp gates for the sake of a balance change that can be achieved in other ways (for instance by increasing the research time) Bio can be healed, gateway units can be warped in to replace, it adds flavor and utility to an otherwise boring unit in a way that is unique to the race and as a balance change would be the last resort. You can't really compare Warp Prisms to Medievacs like that. Warp Prisms cost less tech and less resources then Medievacs (gas being the limited resource in the game) and serve different purposes. Warp In would still be in the game, I don't understand what you're getting it. It would just be available in the mid game as opposed to early. If a Protoss player wants to utilise a warp prism heavy play then they will research warp gates. It's not like the Twilight Council is a dead end tech tree anyway, from there you have access to Charge, Blink, DTs, HT and level 2+ upgrades. | ||
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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
On April 22 2011 22:42 Saechiis wrote: Protoss has never been considered the weakest race. The uber large maps probably have a lot to do with Toss currently being considered OP, since warpgates completely negate rush distance Toss has the option of doing all-ins as strong as on any other map or choose to lay back and build a deathball whilst profiting from Zerg and Terran still having to deal with the rush distance. Between the roach buff and MC's first GSL championship, it was. | ||
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XothermeK
United Arab Emirates245 Posts
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jeefzors
United States120 Posts
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On April 22 2011 17:40 Telcontar wrote: Good to hear they're actively trying a find a solution but I have a feeling that old habits will die hard even with a nerf. just like the 2gate vs zerg strat? as it gets less effective it will get less popular, people do it because its easy and wins | ||
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vyyye
Sweden3917 Posts
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familyguy123
92 Posts
1) the first warpgate research happens in about the same time, and produces units in 5 seconds but at a limited distance from warpgate. this could be a radius around the warpgate, or a radius around the nexus, within the power of a pylon. 2) second increases the radius to anywhere on the map, 30 seconds later. moving any of these things to the 'twilight council' really messes up with the P timing, and i would hope to P players shouldn't have to re-learn the timings that they always knew all along. P is heavily dependent on WG finishing in time to get off the round of units that defends T/Z, this should solve it of course, there is a way that would make it much harder (decisions wise) for the Protoss, which is to make gateways produec stalkers/sentries (maybe zealots after a cyber core) as fast as/faster than their WG cooldowns, which complicates the game mightily. i think people want less dumbing down of the game, and this would definitely not do that. however it perturbs the game enough to make one wonder about balance. also, can we get a templar buff? for instance can we make it have a greater effect on shields, which would only affect PvP? generally templars are usable still (a modified khaydarin would be preferred, like max energy of 250 -> 63, but not necessary) | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
On April 22 2011 22:42 Saechiis wrote: Protoss has never been considered the weakest race. The uber large maps probably have a lot to do with Toss currently being considered OP, since warpgates completely negate rush distance Toss has the option of doing all-ins as strong as on any other map or choose to lay back and build a deathball whilst profiting from Zerg and Terran still having to deal with the rush distance. Terran did fine against Toss before since their bio could be in their face early on, which is a lot harder on the current maps. Zerg doesn't really benefit from the larger maps because of the mentioned 0 rush distance and the fact that Toss' macro mechanics are good enough to not attack Zerg at all and just build an unbeatable ball of units. 1) It was considered the weakest race. Go read the posts of that time, check playxp QQ, perhaps you were on another planet at the time; 2) Terran did more than fine. Protoss kept being obliterated by the early pushes; 3) Zerg is the one that gains most benefits from larger maps. They are the most mobile race of all 3, and don't come with warpgate BS. It's only for gate units, and except from early rushes / 2 base all ins, toss will have colossus which are fairly slow. 4) For you sayign that i get the sense that (don't attack the zerg at all and still win) you aren't good player at all or don't understand the Protoss perspective. That's just possible if the Zerg doesn't know how to macro otherwise he'll just get crushed like a puppy with 200 supply vs 130 and a much better economy. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On April 22 2011 22:11 Daralii wrote: People don't trust Blizzard, so they're making random suggestions. I say this as someone who has bought every Blizzard game except Lost Vikings, and absolutely cherished every one. They're great at designing games, but they have very often said things like "we're going to work on x, so that y isn't a problem anymore", and then they worked on x, put it in a patch, praised at the "solution to y" , only to find that y was still a problem, and that x created other issues that they didn't foresee. No disrespect to Blizzard here, it's just that in a game as complex as starcraft, the implications of even the smallest change are very difficult to forsee. | ||
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AcrossFiveJulys
United States3612 Posts
On April 22 2011 22:50 Whitewing wrote: It's also a huge tool in the Protoss toolbox, and allows you to be a big threat and prevent players from playing as greedily, because they always have to be aware that you could 4 gate. Even if you don't actually 4 gate, the fact that you could is threatening. Taking that away is a pretty big nerf. Agreed, but it's a needed nerf. Every non-cheese TvP build revolves around dealing with the ridiculous number of protoss allins. Right now protoss is strong in late game because their ability to turtle with FFs and get cost efficient tech (many colossi, full gateway upgrades) but they are ALSO strong with allins. No race should have super threatening offense while having insane turtle ability (FFs, warpin to stop drops). In other words, the builds terrans design to account for allins put them behind a safe economic protoss. so either terrans open safe and end up losing in the late game if protoss does not allin, or open risky and lose in early game if protoss allins. On the other side, protoss can *safely* take a fast expansion to be ahead/even with the terran (1 gate FE or 3 gate pressure) or allin to win the game outright if the terran is not super defensive. | ||
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Zaros
United Kingdom3692 Posts
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