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On April 22 2011 21:41 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 20:14 weaintmagical87 wrote:
bad bad bad idea increasing warp gate cooldown they re breaking pvt right there where p is alrdy by far the underdog In platinum ? Yeah. Higher than that - PvT is almost as a fucking joke as PvZ. No wonder so many Terrans switched to Protoss and even EmpireKas is laddering as Protoss now. No balance whine, but currently Protoss is favoured in all match-ups, and working on warp-gates is a good thing to begin with. But I think Proxy Gateway build in Terran's base will be too strong with this change.
oviously another terran that crys like a little baby if he can't kill everything in the game with stim+mmm how about we revert the Sp nerf before the Barracks then u can put 50% less effort into the game and still crush people.
What do you want? Marines+marauders to be able to easily deal with tier 3 units with ease? The problem is Terrans have been stuck in the same game style since beta and now other races are finding flaws with it so it's broken jesus christ try some new strats instead of bitching on Tl that it's a joke in leagues higher that plat. maybe you'r just a crap player
User was warned for this post
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On April 22 2011 17:45 dacthehork wrote:
The concept of early game warp technology was a flawed one
1. Warp Tech is required and happens at the beginning of the game
2. Warp Tech removes defenders advantage in terms of production timing / walk distance.
Who could have foreseen that Warp Gate would create rush imbalances
Warp Tech as a lategame upgrade just makes far more sense and fosters macro / skilled games (can't have that). Instead of moving warp gate to a much higher tier instead they have spent the last year balancing around having protoss able to eliminate map distance/size.
Only in one matchup though, and only on maps with wide ramp.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that warp gate rushes are imbalanced against terran, zerg, or a forcefielded protoss. Atleast not in highest level of play 
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Australia4865 Posts
On April 22 2011 21:51 Dingobloo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 21:48 Dommk wrote:On April 22 2011 21:41 Huragius wrote:On April 22 2011 20:14 weaintmagical87 wrote:
bad bad bad idea increasing warp gate cooldown they re breaking pvt right there where p is alrdy by far the underdog In platinum ? Yeah. Higher than that - PvT is almost as a fucking joke as PvZ. No wonder so many Terrans switched to Protoss and even EmpireKas is laddering as Protoss now. No balance whine, but currently Protoss is favoured in all match-ups, and working on warp-gates is a good thing to begin with. But I think Proxy Gateway build in Terran's base will be too strong with this change. Are you serious? Since when has the match been "almost as a joke as PvZ"? That is so absurd. Grass is always greener on the other side, whatever KaS is doing with Protoss, and however good he may be, he wont be switching, it is the same when Zergs "Switching to Terrans". I can't even fathom how anyone can consider the match up this bad when you have players like Bomber,MKP MVP and MMA just crushing Protoss so convincingly, even players just as good like San/MC. Bomber vs White-ra were sine if the most one sided games I've ever seen. Bomber is the only one crushing protoss according to TLPD, MKP and MVP are both around a 52% win rate which is their worst matchups.
Their most recent games are much more impressive. MVP had some awful streak where he played terribly and fell into Code A, I wouldn't count those losses as an actual loss considering how good he is. MMA's vs Protoss win rate may only be 63% but I'm fairly sure every knows him for his impressive TvT, yet that only has a 53% win ratio
Nada, Ryung , Polt, aLive, Rainbow, GuMiho , LiveForever, Ensnare all have a 66% win ratio or better against Protoss (Only two of them have 66% ratio, the rest have ratios varying from 70% to 100%)
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On April 22 2011 21:55 TrANCE, wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 21:41 Huragius wrote:On April 22 2011 20:14 weaintmagical87 wrote:
bad bad bad idea increasing warp gate cooldown they re breaking pvt right there where p is alrdy by far the underdog In platinum ? Yeah. Higher than that - PvT is almost as a fucking joke as PvZ. No wonder so many Terrans switched to Protoss and even EmpireKas is laddering as Protoss now. No balance whine, but currently Protoss is favoured in all match-ups, and working on warp-gates is a good thing to begin with. But I think Proxy Gateway build in Terran's base will be too strong with this change. oviously another terran that crys like a little baby if he can't kill everything in the game with stim+mmm how about we revert the Sp nerf before the Barracks then u can put 50% less effort into the game and still crush people. What do you want? Marines+marauders to be able to easily deal with tier 3 units with ease? The problem is Terrans have been stuck in the same game style since beta and now other races are finding flaws with it so it's broken jesus christ try some new strats instead of bitching on Tl that it's a joke in leagues higher that plat. maybe you'r just a crap player
tired of retarded protoss players telling terrans to buid other units, omg like your the first person to ever think of that. Any opening thats not bio will lose to 4gate / void rays / blink stalker and transitioning later means zero upgrades, zero production buildings, high likelyness of being runover by 6gate or 2base colossus or anything pretty much. Not to mention chargelots counter ALL mech.
User was warned for this post
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I'm bit worried about spanishiwa's build. Could you scout spanishiwa build AND make 2gate rush in time?
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I REALLY hope they make warp gate cooldown slightly longer than gateway cooldown. Gateway cooldown would be reduced to compensate for early game weakness. So many options, strategic variety, this idea just makes SO MUCH SENSE, PLEASE BLIZZARD!
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On April 22 2011 17:39 AndAgain wrote:
Wait a sec, so will gateways now have faster build times than warpgate cooldowns?
Probably not, I think they just want to make the gateways build fast enough so that people don't compain and so that it doesn't ruin the other MU's. I think when given the option to get warp gates, people will still opt for it. If the time is indeed that much quicker then I would definitely keep gateways over warpgates since it would allow a player to micro harder without having to go back to his base to make units. It would be like terran, you can micro while macroing at the same time. Definitely would be a good thing, but that is just if the build time is that much faster.
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Only on 2-Player maps or when you spawn close.
edit@spanishiwas build
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On April 22 2011 21:56 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 17:45 dacthehork wrote:
The concept of early game warp technology was a flawed one
1. Warp Tech is required and happens at the beginning of the game
2. Warp Tech removes defenders advantage in terms of production timing / walk distance.
Who could have foreseen that Warp Gate would create rush imbalances
Warp Tech as a lategame upgrade just makes far more sense and fosters macro / skilled games (can't have that). Instead of moving warp gate to a much higher tier instead they have spent the last year balancing around having protoss able to eliminate map distance/size.
Only in one matchup though, and only on maps with wide ramp. I wouldn't go so far as to say that warp gate rushes are imbalanced against terran, zerg, or a forcefielded protoss. Atleast not in highest level of play
For sure, there are other things that trivialize travel distance (close air position maps, faster units) and they're all balanced around these in order to increase unit variety, it's the same for warp gate units, zealots and stalkers are weaker then their other race counter parts unless sentries are present, sentries need to build energy which acts as a way to give defenders advantage because they can't just be reinforced.
Sometimes I get the impression that people would just like to play TvT all day, and while that would be a balanced game, it wouldn't necessarily be a fun or interesting game.
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On April 22 2011 21:48 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 21:41 Huragius wrote:On April 22 2011 20:14 weaintmagical87 wrote:
bad bad bad idea increasing warp gate cooldown they re breaking pvt right there where p is alrdy by far the underdog In platinum ? Yeah. Higher than that - PvT is almost as a fucking joke as PvZ. No wonder so many Terrans switched to Protoss and even EmpireKas is laddering as Protoss now. No balance whine, but currently Protoss is favoured in all match-ups, and working on warp-gates is a good thing to begin with. But I think Proxy Gateway build in Terran's base will be too strong with this change. Are you serious? Since when has the match been "almost as a joke as PvZ"? That is so absurd. Grass is always greener on the other side, whatever KaS is doing with Protoss, and however good he may be, he wont be switching, it is the same when Zergs "Switching to Terrans". I can't even fathom how anyone can consider the match up this bad when you have players like Bomber,MKP MVP and MMA just crushing Protoss so convincingly, even players just as good like San/MC. Bomber vs White-ra had some if the most one sided games I've ever seen. Not to mention the cognitive dissonance when you say "no balance whine" but call the match "as much as a joke as PvZ" the sentence before.
Mhm, MKP MVP and MMA crushing Protoss ? Doesn't seem so. And Bombers TvP is his best match-up. Actually, these four Terran are freaking good and in my eyes players like San is really far behind skill wise, but yet they still manage to take long macro games with 100 apm against Terrans like IMMVP whose APM triples his, I mean, how can this happen in such a late stage of the game ?
Yeah, there are games where Terran dominates protoss, but just because he opened with cheesy build and inflicted serious damage or did some sick drop play which was poorly defended by Protoss. If Protoss scouts and knows it's coming, you simply can't do a shit to him and without all this Terran's fancy stuff in TvP, they don't look so strong, it's even quite the opposite. Now, TvP relies on how much can you out-multitask protoss with cheesy stuff, but simply can't do this kind of play against equally skilled protoss, not even talking about a situation where protoss is more skilled.
And why to use Bomber vs WhiteRa as a example ? So lets take someone like Haypro vs IMMVP and draw conclusions from this Bo5 ?
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As a 50/50 % Protoss/ Terran player I'm very happy they're going to try and fix the PvP MU, it's absolutely awful and literally no-one likes it.
Decreasing build time for gateway units though, I'm curious how that is going to pan out. Zealot build time was already increased at Gateway since 2 Gate was deemed a bit too strong against Zerg. If I understand correctly they're just going to put Zealot build time were it was before at 32 seconds, Sentry and Stalker are going to be 38 probably.
All-in all, I think the 2-gates were easier to hold than all the unpredictable 4-gate builds that are currently floating around. Zergs may not particularly like they idea of pre-warpgate pressure but it's a lot easier to scout and respond to than a 4-gate expo cancel -_-'
On April 22 2011 21:30 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 19:00 Geo.Rion wrote:
why do i feel, this protoss nerf will end up as a buff? Because toss doesn't QQ as much. Toss deals with it and innovates. Zerg and Terran qq's and has to be dragged into changing their playstyle kicking and screaming. Kind of sad almost, but Brotoss has undergone the most nerfs of any race, and yet they are still chill and seem to find different ways to exploit their races abilities every other game. T and Z just QQ and whine about Protoss. And I say this as a die-hard Zerg fan. All this being said, I will again say I love Blizzard's approach to balance. Slow and careful, because they realize how big small changes can be.
You're probably the whiniest person I know on these forums, maybe you should keep your judgment to yourself.
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On April 22 2011 22:01 chrusher97 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 21:55 TrANCE, wrote:On April 22 2011 21:41 Huragius wrote:On April 22 2011 20:14 weaintmagical87 wrote:
bad bad bad idea increasing warp gate cooldown they re breaking pvt right there where p is alrdy by far the underdog In platinum ? Yeah. Higher than that - PvT is almost as a fucking joke as PvZ. No wonder so many Terrans switched to Protoss and even EmpireKas is laddering as Protoss now. No balance whine, but currently Protoss is favoured in all match-ups, and working on warp-gates is a good thing to begin with. But I think Proxy Gateway build in Terran's base will be too strong with this change. oviously another terran that crys like a little baby if he can't kill everything in the game with stim+mmm how about we revert the Sp nerf before the Barracks then u can put 50% less effort into the game and still crush people. What do you want? Marines+marauders to be able to easily deal with tier 3 units with ease? The problem is Terrans have been stuck in the same game style since beta and now other races are finding flaws with it so it's broken jesus christ try some new strats instead of bitching on Tl that it's a joke in leagues higher that plat. maybe you'r just a crap player tired of retarded protoss players telling terrans to buid other units, omg like your the first person to ever think of that. Any opening thats not bio will lose to 4gate / void rays / blink stalker and transitioning later means zero upgrades, zero production buildings, high likelyness of being runover by 6gate or 2base colossus or anything pretty much. Not to mention chargelots counter ALL mech.
If you're losing hellions to zealots then there are deeper problems with your play than just "chargelots counter ALL mech"...
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I think this would be really interesting to play with.
I one for support Blizzard in whatever they do when it comes to patching
and trying to balance out the game. I know they're doing all of this for the better.
I guess we'll have to see.
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Australia4865 Posts
On April 22 2011 22:02 Ryndika wrote:
I'm bit worried about spanishiwa's build. Could you scout spanishiwa build AND make 2gate rush in time?
Um, provided they only decent by a sane amount and not something like 20-30seconds off gateway unit built times, the difference in getting 2gate rushed from their base would be the difference between playing Close by air Meta and Close by ground Meta. If it can't be done now then the only hope it has in working post patch would be close by ground meta.
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On April 22 2011 21:10 eloist wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 21:08 HuHEN wrote:On April 22 2011 21:00 eloist wrote:On April 22 2011 20:58 KillerPlague wrote:
this is a terrible decision. warp gate timings affect protoss vs every race. now if you say a warp gate rush cannot come until 7 minutes (or w/e time it may be) zerg will be able to drone up and terran will not require a bunker until much later. plus all of my build orders are pretty well refined at the moment, revolving around warp gate tech to be safe. every one of my build orders now has to change. guess we'll have to wait and see :/ Why should terran have to get a bunker? Is there a terran opening that makes Protoss have to have a photon cannon? Is it the same? No but why is terran having to get a bunker presented as a necessity to game balance?
better question: whats wrong with terrans needing a bunker to balance out a specific build?
should blizzard buff other terran units because you insist on playing with a handicap where defensive bunkers dont exist?
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guess they wanted to get some feedback on this if people would miss the 4 gate etc and dislike changes in general.
And no proxy gates won't be stronger they nerved zealot build time already since it was an issue in late game and in early game in pvp, so i guess sentry and stalkers will be affected by this. But a longer tech time will probably not change anything and will result in longer one base play. (just my opinion on this idea as you will just pump stuff out of 2 gates and wait for the research to finish and at the end its the same, unless the reasearch time is 4 minutes so someone will have enough immortals or colossi by then xD)
But in general i used normal gates to defend the 4 gate (50 gas faster immortal  , start reasearch afterwards x3).
Since i consider 4 gate no problem in pvp (you can delay it so long that its no problem at all) i have no idea what you could change there though. I mean in pvp in bw you needed the same amount of gates as your opponent and if you couldn't scout you had to get as many as you could support. (though bw was 1 or 2 gates only hehe )
Also zvz is having the same issue you need the same amount of larva production almost and the pool timing must be almost the same or you are pretty much done. Its just normal. They could put a range upgrade for the stalker into the core, so the defender advantage will be higher if they don't go for warpgate first. (halluzination is something like this though, as a 4gater won't have detection, but i guess sentrys are a bit weak against stalkers)
I think they will just overdo it as it sounds and do an overfix.
PS: proxy gates aren't strong, but it will probably trigger a bunker build time change ! xD
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I really hope they do introduce a reason to ever use normal Gateways! That would make the race feel more complete and well-designed
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I didn't read the whole thread but why are people suddenly talking about longer WG cooldown, when OP only mentions longer WG research?
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On April 22 2011 22:10 ondik wrote:
I didn't read the whole thread but why are people suddenly talking about longer WG cooldown, when OP only mentions longer WG research?
People don't trust Blizzard, so they're making random suggestions.
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On April 22 2011 21:55 TrANCE, wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 21:41 Huragius wrote:On April 22 2011 20:14 weaintmagical87 wrote:
bad bad bad idea increasing warp gate cooldown they re breaking pvt right there where p is alrdy by far the underdog In platinum ? Yeah. Higher than that - PvT is almost as a fucking joke as PvZ. No wonder so many Terrans switched to Protoss and even EmpireKas is laddering as Protoss now. No balance whine, but currently Protoss is favoured in all match-ups, and working on warp-gates is a good thing to begin with. But I think Proxy Gateway build in Terran's base will be too strong with this change. oviously another terran that crys like a little baby if he can't kill everything in the game with stim+mmm how about we revert the Sp nerf before the Barracks then u can put 50% less effort into the game and still crush people. What do you want? Marines+marauders to be able to easily deal with tier 3 units with ease? The problem is Terrans have been stuck in the same game style since beta and now other races are finding flaws with it so it's broken jesus christ try some new strats instead of bitching on Tl that it's a joke in leagues higher that plat. maybe you'r just a crap player
To your shitty knowledge, I almost always open with FE and play with mech in TvP. And with this I win more games than with MMM because even in high Master's protoss decision making quite poor. They still let me to take third base, get 200/200 3/3 mech army with Ghosts and so on, while they are simply massing collo and playing Sim City. It's just a matter of time when mech will be solved as MMM is and I will have big lose streaks against protoss once again.
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EPT
