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On April 22 2011 21:00 eloist wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 20:58 KillerPlague wrote:
this is a terrible decision. warp gate timings affect protoss vs every race. now if you say a warp gate rush cannot come until 7 minutes (or w/e time it may be) zerg will be able to drone up and terran will not require a bunker until much later. plus all of my build orders are pretty well refined at the moment, revolving around warp gate tech to be safe. every one of my build orders now has to change. guess we'll have to wait and see :/ Why should terran have to get a bunker? Is there a terran opening that makes Protoss have to have a photon cannon?
Cannons' can't be salvaged, sentries are a much better analogy to the bunker, and almost every terran build forces them which delays tech.
I know it seems wierd, but cannons are a lot closer to missile turrets, they just happen to shoot ground as well, and it's the detection that forces those on both sides.
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On April 22 2011 21:00 eloist wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 20:58 KillerPlague wrote:
this is a terrible decision. warp gate timings affect protoss vs every race. now if you say a warp gate rush cannot come until 7 minutes (or w/e time it may be) zerg will be able to drone up and terran will not require a bunker until much later. plus all of my build orders are pretty well refined at the moment, revolving around warp gate tech to be safe. every one of my build orders now has to change. guess we'll have to wait and see :/ Why should terran have to get a bunker? Is there a terran opening that makes Protoss have to have a photon cannon?
Is it the same?
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On April 22 2011 21:00 eloist wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 20:58 KillerPlague wrote:
this is a terrible decision. warp gate timings affect protoss vs every race. now if you say a warp gate rush cannot come until 7 minutes (or w/e time it may be) zerg will be able to drone up and terran will not require a bunker until much later. plus all of my build orders are pretty well refined at the moment, revolving around warp gate tech to be safe. every one of my build orders now has to change. guess we'll have to wait and see :/ Why should terran have to get a bunker? Is there a terran opening that makes Protoss have to have a photon cannon?
technically you only need the bunker if you're fast expanding. but going banshee makes us require a a photon cannon OR robo even if you have no intention of getting cloak. but the bunker is not 100% required you're right.
edit: someone beat me to it, but sentries are bunker equivalents that are required for early pushes
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On April 22 2011 21:08 HuHEN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 21:00 eloist wrote:On April 22 2011 20:58 KillerPlague wrote:
this is a terrible decision. warp gate timings affect protoss vs every race. now if you say a warp gate rush cannot come until 7 minutes (or w/e time it may be) zerg will be able to drone up and terran will not require a bunker until much later. plus all of my build orders are pretty well refined at the moment, revolving around warp gate tech to be safe. every one of my build orders now has to change. guess we'll have to wait and see :/ Why should terran have to get a bunker? Is there a terran opening that makes Protoss have to have a photon cannon? Is it the same?
No but why is terran having to get a bunker presented as a necessity to game balance?
On April 22 2011 21:09 KillerPlague wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 21:00 eloist wrote:On April 22 2011 20:58 KillerPlague wrote:
this is a terrible decision. warp gate timings affect protoss vs every race. now if you say a warp gate rush cannot come until 7 minutes (or w/e time it may be) zerg will be able to drone up and terran will not require a bunker until much later. plus all of my build orders are pretty well refined at the moment, revolving around warp gate tech to be safe. every one of my build orders now has to change. guess we'll have to wait and see :/ Why should terran have to get a bunker? Is there a terran opening that makes Protoss have to have a photon cannon? technically you only need the bunker if you're fast expanding. but going banshee makes us require a a photon cannon OR robo even if you have no intention of getting cloak. but the bunker is not 100% required you're right.
What I am irritated by is that I find it still hard to defend a warp gate rush even when going 3 rax techlab/techlab/reactor with just one gas pumping units waiting for it to come.I think this is bad for the game.
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On April 22 2011 21:02 sickle wrote:
Tbh, i think this causes more trouble than good. Pvp is evolving right now, so many nice anti-4gate styles developing, so i think its better to just leave it in the players hands.
qft
I think they should just wait some more months.
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On April 22 2011 21:10 eloist wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 21:08 HuHEN wrote:On April 22 2011 21:00 eloist wrote:On April 22 2011 20:58 KillerPlague wrote:
this is a terrible decision. warp gate timings affect protoss vs every race. now if you say a warp gate rush cannot come until 7 minutes (or w/e time it may be) zerg will be able to drone up and terran will not require a bunker until much later. plus all of my build orders are pretty well refined at the moment, revolving around warp gate tech to be safe. every one of my build orders now has to change. guess we'll have to wait and see :/ Why should terran have to get a bunker? Is there a terran opening that makes Protoss have to have a photon cannon? Is it the same? No but why is terran having to get a bunker presented as a necessity to game balance?
It isn't a necessity. If you build is overly greedy then you need to compensate with static defense. Much like how Protoss like to do Nexus before Gateway expands with Cannons against Zerg. If you opened some super aggressive/safe build then there would be no need for a bunker at all. What he is getting at is the timing window to punish greedy Terrans will be small/non-existent, they can be much greedier now knowing there is no threat until much later
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On April 22 2011 21:10 Nynn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 21:02 sickle wrote:
Tbh, i think this causes more trouble than good. Pvp is evolving right now, so many nice anti-4gate styles developing, so i think its better to just leave it in the players hands. qft I think they should just wait some more months.
Not true. Fast expand in PvP is impossible at this stage of the game. As long as we have the 4 gate proxy pylon mechanic it will be very hard to pull off an early Nexus. No reason to explain why a fast expand will make PvP a bit more interesting and different from the usual 4 gate/blink or 3 gate/robo into mass colossus.
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sounds great, looking forward to seeing what changes they implement!
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The best change to Warp Gate would be to make it require (but not be researched at) the Twilight Council. Make it a tech choice that of course you will get in the mid-game, but has to be specifically chosen as your tech path if you want it in the early game. It'd still be available for powerful 2-base pushes (required to punish greedy opponents) but virtually useless as a 1-base opening.
This also makes 4-gate much easier to scout (good) and less powerful and delayed (also good).
Then you need to buff Stalkers (because they are not cost effective vs any other ground unit except hellions in small numbers) and I would also slightly buff Zealots (maybe +10HP?). Personally I'd also move Immortals to the gateway because they break even vs Roaches but lose to anything else (excluding Stalkers which they destroy) for cost.
Marauders would absolutely need a nerf however and 1-gate FE would be gone for sure.
3-Gate FE vs Zerg would still be viable (but you wouldn't be able to get as many sentries as you'd need more gas for the twilight council) but weakened (however probably only slightly with a buffed stalker/zealot) and deathball play would obviously be weakened with less sentries early and less powerful colossi earlier. Possibly 1-gate expo into 3-gates off 1 gas would need to replace the standard 3-gate sentry expand.
PvP without 4-gate and because Zealots are so slow means expanding becomes possible (zealot/sentry beats stalkers but can't attack). Weakened Colossi + buffed stalkers means it's easier to combat colossi, not to mention stargate openings are suddenly viable (although without worrying about 4-gates I guess DT rush is quite dangerous, possibly forcing canons if you don't go robo).
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Given that they reduced zealot build time in a prior patch to stop 2 gates I don't actually think they will reduce gateway build time.
It's more logical they will simply increase the cool down of warpgates.
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Reduce build time on gateway units?
Sure hope it's not zealots or playing on xel would suck.
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On April 22 2011 21:20 althaz wrote:
The best change to Warp Gate would be to make it require (but not be researched at) the Twilight Council. Make it a tech choice that of course you will get in the mid-game, but has to be specifically chosen as your tech path if you want it in the early game. It'd still be available for powerful 2-base pushes (required to punish greedy opponents) but virtually useless as a 1-base opening.
This also makes 4-gate much easier to scout (good) and less powerful and delayed (also good).
Then you need to buff Stalkers (because they are not cost effective vs any other ground unit except hellions in small numbers) and I would also slightly buff Zealots (maybe +10HP?). Personally I'd also move Immortals to the gateway because they break even vs Roaches but lose to anything else (excluding Stalkers which they destroy) for cost.
Marauders would absolutely need a nerf however and 1-gate FE would be gone for sure.
3-Gate FE vs Zerg would still be viable (but you wouldn't be able to get as many sentries as you'd need more gas for the twilight council) but weakened (however probably only slightly with a buffed stalker/zealot) and deathball play would obviously be weakened with less sentries early and less powerful colossi earlier. Possibly 1-gate expo into 3-gates off 1 gas would need to replace the standard 3-gate sentry expand.
PvP without 4-gate and because Zealots are so slow means expanding becomes possible (zealot/sentry beats stalkers but can't attack). Weakened Colossi + buffed stalkers means it's easier to combat colossi, not to mention stargate openings are suddenly viable (although without worrying about 4-gates I guess DT rush is quite dangerous, possibly forcing canons if you don't go robo).
Moving warp gates to twilight council would send warp prisms further into obscurity giving them no ability to regenerate harassment units until late mid game, it would be like making medivac heal an upgrade and putting it on the armory.
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Great, so why would anybody bother to make warpgates if they can make units faster using normal gates...
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On April 22 2011 21:26 Boyo wrote:
Great, so why would anybody bother to make warpgates if they can make units faster using normal gates...
The wording seems to imply that it wouldn't be faster than warp gates, just faster than the current gateway times. Currently warp gate cooldowns are 10 seconds faster than the gateway build time, they would likely reduce this penalty, so gateways would build faster then currently, but not faster then warpgates, and warpgate cooldowns would remain the same as they are now.
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On April 22 2011 19:00 Geo.Rion wrote:
why do i feel, this protoss nerf will end up as a buff?
Because toss doesn't QQ as much. Toss deals with it and innovates. Zerg and Terran qq's and has to be dragged into changing their playstyle kicking and screaming. Kind of sad almost, but Brotoss has undergone the most nerfs of any race, and yet they are still chill and seem to find different ways to exploit their races abilities every other game. T and Z just QQ and whine about Protoss.
And I say this as a die-hard Zerg fan.
All this being said, I will again say I love Blizzard's approach to balance. Slow and careful, because they realize how big small changes can be.
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On April 22 2011 21:26 Boyo wrote:
Great, so why would anybody bother to make warpgates if they can make units faster using normal gates...
My friend, the power to warp in units anywhere on the map is a very powerful ability that is a definite advantage even if Gateways make stuff a bit quicker.
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Exatly wtf are blizzard doing fucking changeing something ever patch this is getting beond a joke enough little bitches complain because they can't do something as 4 gate and now WG research is getting a nerf. They need to take a step back and leave the game to evolve instead of sticking their noses in and changeing the whole dynamics of the games every couple of months
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imo they should remove warpgate, Protoss already have warp prisms...
another option is to make warpgate researched at twilight council, something to make it not so strong at early stage.
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On April 22 2011 21:34 ilbh wrote:
imo they should remove warpgate, Protoss already have warp prisms...
another option is to make warpgate researched at twilight council, something to make it not so strong at early stage.
Whats warp prism got to do with Warpgates?? you serious?
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EPT
