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On April 22 2011 20:35 rale wrote:
Changing warpgate research time may weaken 4gate, but it's not going to fix the real problem with PvP. Right now, if both players 4gate, the game tends to stabilize with neither player really being able to attack after a while. Then you have the rock-paper-scissors problem, where you have to blindly pick between robo, stargate, and twilight.
If 4gate is no longer viable, then the blind tech choice will just happen sooner, which could make PvP even more volatile, if anything.
Bit soon to assume that this is the only change they'll be making, also by increasing the time it takes to get warp gate it might be possible to get things like early hallucination and not just die because you built a sentry.
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sounds like they found a fix to early game pvp.
but what about the COLOSSUS WARS!
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On April 22 2011 20:42 xza wrote:
sounds like they found a fix to early game pvp.
but what about the COLOSSUS WARS!
Up to the players to fix. :D
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On April 22 2011 20:38 frucisky wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 20:13 Ribbon wrote:On April 22 2011 20:09 JTheLakeT wrote:
Hope the fix towards PvP isn't the only big change this patch... Blizz has said Colo was OP, but KA made it hard to measure exactly what to change (their explanation for why it wasn't nerfed with 1.3). So prob. a Colo nerf or corrupter buff as well. Maybe a carrier buff since they never get used, but I could see Blizz not wanting to make too many changes at once. A corrupter buff to increase its DPS will be amazing. It will mean less corrupters and that the colossi go down faster so that the ground army actually survives long enough to fight. I think nerfing Colossus might make marauders a bit too powerful against P. But I'm not a Protoss player so I dunno..
Chargelots are already a soft counter to marauders, the problem is surviving that long without colossi. A lot of suggestions I see in this thread are ignoring the relative weakness of T1/1.5 units without overwhelming numbers or their respective twilight council upgrades, and if anything would result in most toss players just building a lot of sentries early and turtling off of 1 or 2 bases until they have the tech/units to survive.
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On April 22 2011 20:35 rale wrote:
Changing warpgate research time may weaken 4gate, but it's not going to fix the real problem with PvP. Right now, if both players 4gate, the game tends to stabilize with neither player really being able to attack after a while. Then you have the rock-paper-scissors problem, where you have to blindly pick between robo, stargate, and twilight.
If 4gate is no longer viable, then the blind tech choice will just happen sooner, which could make PvP even more volatile, if anything.
Yeah, unless your going Blink, the attacker is ALWAYS at the disadvantage, if it gets to the point where both sides can just rush to Colossus, then you get awful stalemate situations were both sides just turtle to 200/200 and whoever made the best army comp wins (or whoever gets caught out of position and get hit by 8 Colossus before attacking themselves)
The power differential between Colossus and Gateway units is far too great, something needs to be changed about that, but then it might make Immortals and Voidrays too weak. One massive headache
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Euch, and another massive Protoss nerf. For the mere sake of "well the other races have been talking about you behind your back and they think you're a bit boring" This race is slowly getting more and more diluted, not diversified.
This proposed change from the sounds of it will do something to the effect of removing one early production cycle out of the 4gate. What is that trying to solve?
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This buff is useless, there is gonna be so much proxygating then -.-
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On April 22 2011 20:43 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 20:35 rale wrote:
Changing warpgate research time may weaken 4gate, but it's not going to fix the real problem with PvP. Right now, if both players 4gate, the game tends to stabilize with neither player really being able to attack after a while. Then you have the rock-paper-scissors problem, where you have to blindly pick between robo, stargate, and twilight.
If 4gate is no longer viable, then the blind tech choice will just happen sooner, which could make PvP even more volatile, if anything. Yeah, unless your going Blink, the attacker is ALWAYS at the disadvantage, if it gets to the point where both sides can just rush to Colossus, then you get awful stalemate situations were both sides just turtle to 200/200 and whoever made the best army comp wins. The power differential between Colossus and Gateway units is far too much, something needs to be changed about that, but then it might make Immortals and Voidrays too weak. One massive headache
Blizz definitely put themselves in something of a hole with warpgates. To compensate for warpgates, gateway units have to be relatively weak on their own, but without overwhelmingly powerful lategame units the race would be gimp.
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On April 22 2011 20:05 robih wrote:
i will just keep 4gating cause none will expect it :D
I lol'd hard :D
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this doesn't say gates would make units faster than warpgates...theyre probably not gonna even reduce gate unit buildtime to the same time as warpgate cooldown ._.
you think they gonna lower the build time by over 10 seconds? yah right
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Terrible idea and fails to address the real problem behind warp gate.
It clearly shows Blizzard has no idea why PvP behaves the way it does, and why Protoss all-ins in every matchup in the majority of games.
Warp Gate means:
Protoss all-ins cannot be balanced through map size
Tiny defenders advantage (can warp above cliffs)
+1 extra cycle of units
Which is balanced through:
Weak gateway units
Super strong robo units
So
Changing:
Research times
Build times
Will not make any difference!!!
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On April 22 2011 20:15 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 20:03 Dommk wrote:On April 22 2011 19:41 Archvil3 wrote:On April 22 2011 19:35 Dommk wrote:On April 22 2011 19:26 Archvil3 wrote:
Why, proven with the power of math, gateway production time does not need to be buffed in order to rebalance the Protoss after warpgate research nerf.
Warpgates reduces the production time of all gateway units by 10 seconds. Zealot, sentry and stalkers are 38-42 seconds on gateways so a warpgate reduces it by roughly 25%. or in other words an incresed production capacity of 33%.
If you have 3 gateways and adds a fourth you are increasing your production capacity with 33% as well. Simple math right.
So basicly 3 warpgates = 4 gateways.
3 warpgates+research costs = 500 minerals+50 gas.
4 gateways= 600 minerals.
So basicly you are tradig 50 gas for 100 minerals, not that bad a tradeoff and certaintly not gamebreaking.
In order for warpgate research to be viable from a produciton standpoint you need 4 gates or more. A protoss is using 4 gates or when he:
1. is 4-gating. Which is what we are nerfing.
2. is on 2 bases. At this point warpgate should be researched so a nerf will not have any effect which is intended.
What this finally comes down to, if gateway production is unchanged while warpgate research time is increased, is that common Protoss builds like 3 gate robo or 3 gate expand becomes 4 gate robo and 4 gate expand, without warpgate and the only trade off being 100 minerals for 50 gas.
Production on all builds except 4 gates will remain unchanged. Not true. Warpgates tend to have some idle time as Protoss tech builds tend to use large sums of gas/minerals at once, so you cannot always produce out of your gateway every cooldown, thus the 10second build time increase is negligible when you start to tech. If Warpgate takes so long that you are on two bases by the time it finishes then there will be some serious balance issues. I am not sure how this will affect gateways but not warpgates. Production wise the only difference between 3 warpgates and 4 gateways is that warpgates warps in then gets a cooldown while gateways will have to produce the unit first. The end result is the same. Theoreticly you could say that the toss will be a round of warpins behind so up to 3 units will be delayed by 30 seconds, but I dont see how it could be any worse then that. TBH, It just depends how long it takes to research from now. My only gripe is that it kills 3gate aggression against Terran/Zerg, you generally proxy a pylon as you move out and reinforce that way, now you might be far too vulnerable when moving out. The timings now might be too late to bust down a greedy Terrans ramp too. You need that burst of units. You talk about 3gate aggression + expand against terran getting nerfed as if it's a bad thing. The multitude of sick options protoss has in the early game to put pressure on terran in combination with a strong lategame makes TvP SUCKKKKKKK right now.
Yeah, Protoss doesn't have to go 4 gate to make me sit at the top of my ramp with two bunkers and three barracks going 'oh shit oh shit'. Maybe I just suck though.
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I don't think this is such a good change. I like the idea of making the gateway build-time less than the warpgate cool-down but increasing the research time for warpgate will make it even harder for Protoss to expand in the early game against Terran.
I think the concept of making warp-ins powered by Nexuses is a better idea because it negates a lot of the early-game warpgate all-in builds. They could make the warp-in region the same size as a sensor tower's region and it would be pretty good to stop early rushes but allow for later pressure IMO.
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On April 22 2011 20:42 xza wrote:
sounds like they found a fix to early game pvp.
but what about the COLOSSUS WARS!
maybe with warpgate fix the pheonix might actually be a really strong thing to consider? idk
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this is a terrible decision. warp gate timings affect protoss vs every race. now if you say a warp gate rush cannot come until 7 minutes (or w/e time it may be) zerg will be able to drone up and terran will not require a bunker until much later. plus all of my build orders are pretty well refined at the moment, revolving around warp gate tech to be safe. every one of my build orders now has to change. guess we'll have to wait and see :/
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I like this change as i think it will make toss less brittle early game (oh i built too many/too few sentries etc) as they will be able to mass units faster out of gateways to stay alive then wen transitioning to attack the can switch all the gates to WG and get backup easily.
The only issue I can see and has been pointed out is proxygateing as if the build time is too fast it will be verry powerfull. Really dont think this is a nerf though.
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On April 22 2011 20:58 KillerPlague wrote:
this is a terrible decision. warp gate timings affect protoss vs every race. now if you say a warp gate rush cannot come until 7 minutes (or w/e time it may be) zerg will be able to drone up and terran will not require a bunker until much later. plus all of my build orders are pretty well refined at the moment, revolving around warp gate tech to be safe. every one of my build orders now has to change. guess we'll have to wait and see :/
Why should terran have to get a bunker? Is there a terran opening that makes Protoss have to have a photon cannon?
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Tbh, i think this causes more trouble than good. Pvp is evolving right now, so many nice anti-4gate styles developing, so i think its better to just leave it in the players hands.
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I bet it won't change the fact that expanding will be impossible because they won't reduce the build-time by that much, and the defender would lack warpgate too. So every game turns into 1base colossus instead, which is so much worse than 4gating.
Not to mention that it will weaken builds like 3-Gate FE or even 1-Gate FE.
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It's about goddamn time that other races will gain a defender's advantage against Protoss. The same defender's advantage that's a core element of every single RTS game ever created.
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EPT
