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PvP is going to change in the next Patch ! - Page 10

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syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
April 22 2011 10:45 GMT
#181
Well this pretty much kills 6 pool, not that it was viable before
Sernyl
Profile Joined March 2011
Lithuania113 Posts
April 22 2011 10:46 GMT
#182
Ohider proxy 2gate zealots.I missed 'thee so.
OK
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
April 22 2011 10:49 GMT
#183
Could make fast 1 gate proxies against T really good as well
Kyuki
Profile Joined February 2008
Sweden1867 Posts
April 22 2011 10:49 GMT
#184
People speak about 2-gate zealots vs zerg as if zerg are in the exact same state as they were when this was a popular build which is extremly ignorant...

I'm also amazed how people just jump the gun sooo fast. Let's just wait and see what happens, I'm very happy that they're extensively testing and doing something about the matchup and even just the issues with the warpgate mechanic in general.
Mada Mada Dane
trNimitz
Profile Joined October 2010
204 Posts
April 22 2011 10:52 GMT
#185
On April 22 2011 19:18 Ribbon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 22 2011 19:12 done wrote:
lol @ everybody saying it will break the other matchups. At least one of them (probably both) already IS broken, so what harm could it possibly do? Nerfing Protoss at this moment can only lead to a better balanced game, simple as that. I am not even whining or complaining here, but at this stage its pretty much obvious protoss is the strongest race atm.


The complaint about P at the pro level is that their 200/200 ball is too strong with Colos in it. Which is indeed a problem Blizz mentioned in the situation report for patch 1.3 (They want to see how P does without KA first).

The issue with 4gate PvP is thus.

1. If my opponent is 4gating me, I need 4 gates to win.
2. If my opponent doesn't 4gate, and I build 4gates, not only CAN I 4gate, I *have* to, because my build is so inefficient otherwise.

So PvP was ALWAYS 4gate on 4gate.

At the Pro Level, Terrans and Zerg aren't complaining about straight 4gates, though fake expo into 4gate is tricky for Zerg.

You're wrong. I can't be bothered to explain more but you could take a look at mrbitter's latest pvp session with socke (who basically summed up how pvp worked), or just play enough to get to a decent level with protoss.
Shadowcloak
Profile Joined March 2011
Netherlands194 Posts
April 22 2011 10:52 GMT
#186
This is a buff for the 4 gate vs 4 gate but at the same time we now will face ZEALOT RUSH every freaking game proxy 2 gate and lets roll those zealots in
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ SUPP SON
Piski
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Finland3461 Posts
April 22 2011 10:54 GMT
#187
On April 22 2011 19:52 Shadowcloak wrote:
This is a buff for the 4 gate vs 4 gate but at the same time we now will face ZEALOT RUSH every freaking game proxy 2 gate and lets roll those zealots in


Did anyone actually feel 2 gate zealot rushes was that op? It beat zergs that hatch fist in close spots and terrans that got greedy / didn't wall off. It was strong yes, but not even close to op. I would rather have this.
Battousai13
Profile Joined September 2010
United States638 Posts
April 22 2011 10:54 GMT
#188
This could make Protoss potentially much harder to play. Having to decide your unit composition ahead of time and restructuring build orders. Chronoboost is going to be a much bigger factor with this change. The decision on how to use it would border on difficulty of how Zerg decides to drone or make attacking units.

I would be happy to see this change. It opens the door up to a lot of 1-Gate and 2-Gate builds. For anyone used to the Protoss from Brood War, this will be a good amount of nostalgia.
Tyree
Profile Joined November 2010
1508 Posts
April 22 2011 10:56 GMT
#189
They increased the Zealot build time for the very same reason that people would 2gate.

I hope they do this nerf/buff switcharoonie right and it works out great for everyone in the end
★ Top Gun ★
FarbrorAbavna
Profile Joined July 2009
Sweden4856 Posts
April 22 2011 10:56 GMT
#190
On April 22 2011 19:45 syllogism wrote:
Well this pretty much kills 6 pool, not that it was viable before

doing a 6pool you might as well just gg and quit, saving both players time
Do you really want chat rooms?
Technique
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands1542 Posts
April 22 2011 10:57 GMT
#191
Sounds awesome to me.
If you think you're good, you suck. If you think you suck, you're getting better.
Eviltoast
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia166 Posts
April 22 2011 10:58 GMT
#192
Cant wait to see what happens from this, should shake the match up a lot as PvP has been 4 gate vs 4 gate for ever not leaving a lot of other builds and strategies to develop.
it's copacetic... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
DImported
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia149 Posts
April 22 2011 10:58 GMT
#193
If this change goes through, I can certainly see lower leagues having more proxy 2 gate zealot rushes.
Pwnographics
Profile Joined January 2011
New Zealand1097 Posts
April 22 2011 10:59 GMT
#194
On April 22 2011 19:16 beridoxy wrote:
Yeah PvP is boring, but ZvZ is broodwar was not the same ? Zergling then mutas ? 4 gate then Collosus wars ?

Why "fix" ? Only good thing would be all same but limit warping to a certain distance of the nexus. You use WARP PRISM to warp far. You could get a TC upgrade for far warp pylon. Oh man I'm already theocrating sorry.

"We will address 4gate in the next patch", really ?
Again removing a strategy from the game ?


ZvZ is zergling/baneling.

And you try to tech to roaches without dying.

If that succeeds.

Roach vs Roach wars.

Then you try tech to anything flying or infestors without dying.
infinity2k9
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United Kingdom2397 Posts
April 22 2011 11:01 GMT
#195
To the guy who says he hopes PvP will be as interesting as TvT: look at the units which make TvT interesting, and compare. With the tools given to us right now, PvP is never going to be like it. Even BW PvP wasn't that good apart from the reavers, because it's mainly just one mass army against another, with just a few other possibilities like DT openings thrown in as well. If you choose to expand early you had to defend it as best you could, if you succeeded you won pretty much and if not you lost.
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-22 11:07:37
April 22 2011 11:03 GMT
#196
On April 22 2011 19:41 Archvil3 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 22 2011 19:35 Dommk wrote:
On April 22 2011 19:26 Archvil3 wrote:
Why, proven with the power of math, gateway production time does not need to be buffed in order to rebalance the Protoss after warpgate research nerf.

Warpgates reduces the production time of all gateway units by 10 seconds. Zealot, sentry and stalkers are 38-42 seconds on gateways so a warpgate reduces it by roughly 25%. or in other words an incresed production capacity of 33%.

If you have 3 gateways and adds a fourth you are increasing your production capacity with 33% as well. Simple math right.

So basicly 3 warpgates = 4 gateways.

3 warpgates+research costs = 500 minerals+50 gas.

4 gateways= 600 minerals.

So basicly you are tradig 50 gas for 100 minerals, not that bad a tradeoff and certaintly not gamebreaking.

In order for warpgate research to be viable from a produciton standpoint you need 4 gates or more. A protoss is using 4 gates or when he:

1. is 4-gating. Which is what we are nerfing.

2. is on 2 bases. At this point warpgate should be researched so a nerf will not have any effect which is intended.

What this finally comes down to, if gateway production is unchanged while warpgate research time is increased, is that common Protoss builds like 3 gate robo or 3 gate expand becomes 4 gate robo and 4 gate expand, without warpgate and the only trade off being 100 minerals for 50 gas.

Production on all builds except 4 gates will remain unchanged.


Not true.

Warpgates tend to have some idle time as Protoss tech builds tend to use large sums of gas/minerals at once, so you cannot always produce out of your gateway every cooldown, thus the 10second build time increase is negligible when you start to tech.

If Warpgate takes so long that you are on two bases by the time it finishes then there will be some serious balance issues.


I am not sure how this will affect gateways but not warpgates. Production wise the only difference between 3 warpgates and 4 gateways is that warpgates warps in then gets a cooldown while gateways will have to produce the unit first. The end result is the same. Theoreticly you could say that the toss will be a round of warpins behind so up to 3 units will be delayed by 30 seconds, but I dont see how it could be any worse then that.

TBH, It just depends how long it takes to research from now.

My only gripe is that it kills 3gate aggression against Terran/Zerg, you generally proxy a pylon as you move out and reinforce that way, now you might be far too vulnerable when moving out. The timings now might be too late to bust down a greedy Terrans ramp too. You need that burst of units

Might make 1gate expanding harder too.

I don't think I'll worry too much about it until I see how much they changed it by, complaining about something I don't know yet seems kinda dumb.

This could make Protoss potentially much harder to play. Having to decide your unit composition ahead of time and restructuring build orders. Chronoboost is going to be a much bigger factor with this change. The decision on how to use it would border on difficulty of how Zerg decides to drone or make attacking units.


I was thinking that at first, but I think it comes down to how long they increase it by. If they increase it by 30seconds then it won't be too bad at all. It might just mean we will have to throw more chronos on it for non 4gate builds.

But if it is something absurd like 1-2min increase then there probably will be some big problems, I think we might see the inceptions of some early all-in aimed to take out the cybernetics core and just delay that warpgate tech as long as possible, who knows.
RogerChillingworth
Profile Joined March 2010
Chad3132 Posts
April 22 2011 11:03 GMT
#197
First few weeks = proxy gate bonanza
robih
Profile Joined September 2010
Austria1086 Posts
April 22 2011 11:05 GMT
#198
i will just keep 4gating cause none will expect it :D
Archvil3
Profile Joined September 2010
Denmark989 Posts
April 22 2011 11:08 GMT
#199
On April 22 2011 20:03 Dommk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 22 2011 19:41 Archvil3 wrote:
On April 22 2011 19:35 Dommk wrote:
On April 22 2011 19:26 Archvil3 wrote:
Why, proven with the power of math, gateway production time does not need to be buffed in order to rebalance the Protoss after warpgate research nerf.

Warpgates reduces the production time of all gateway units by 10 seconds. Zealot, sentry and stalkers are 38-42 seconds on gateways so a warpgate reduces it by roughly 25%. or in other words an incresed production capacity of 33%.

If you have 3 gateways and adds a fourth you are increasing your production capacity with 33% as well. Simple math right.

So basicly 3 warpgates = 4 gateways.

3 warpgates+research costs = 500 minerals+50 gas.

4 gateways= 600 minerals.

So basicly you are tradig 50 gas for 100 minerals, not that bad a tradeoff and certaintly not gamebreaking.

In order for warpgate research to be viable from a produciton standpoint you need 4 gates or more. A protoss is using 4 gates or when he:

1. is 4-gating. Which is what we are nerfing.

2. is on 2 bases. At this point warpgate should be researched so a nerf will not have any effect which is intended.

What this finally comes down to, if gateway production is unchanged while warpgate research time is increased, is that common Protoss builds like 3 gate robo or 3 gate expand becomes 4 gate robo and 4 gate expand, without warpgate and the only trade off being 100 minerals for 50 gas.

Production on all builds except 4 gates will remain unchanged.


Not true.

Warpgates tend to have some idle time as Protoss tech builds tend to use large sums of gas/minerals at once, so you cannot always produce out of your gateway every cooldown, thus the 10second build time increase is negligible when you start to tech.

If Warpgate takes so long that you are on two bases by the time it finishes then there will be some serious balance issues.


I am not sure how this will affect gateways but not warpgates. Production wise the only difference between 3 warpgates and 4 gateways is that warpgates warps in then gets a cooldown while gateways will have to produce the unit first. The end result is the same. Theoreticly you could say that the toss will be a round of warpins behind so up to 3 units will be delayed by 30 seconds, but I dont see how it could be any worse then that.

TBH, It just depends how long it takes to research from now.

My only gripe is that it kills 3gate aggression against Terran/Zerg, you generally proxy a pylon as you move out and reinforce that way, now you might be far too vulnerable when moving out. The timings now might be too late to bust down a greedy Terrans ramp too. You need that burst of units

Might make 1gate expanding harder too.

I don't think I'll worry too much about it until I see how much they changed it by, complaining about something I don't know yet seems kinda dumb.


I think you are right. My point really being is that while builds may have to be changed slightly the production capacity and economy of Protoss early game will remain unchanged if only warp gate research time is increased.
Let thy speech be better than silence, or be silent.
JTheLakeT
Profile Joined October 2010
United States38 Posts
April 22 2011 11:09 GMT
#200
Hope the fix towards PvP isn't the only big change this patch...
"Oh look at that, that's a carrier I've heard of those things" -Tasteless
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