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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On April 22 2011 19:03 Dommk wrote: They will _never_ do this. They made it pretty clear that Protoss are meant to use warpgates, the research is just there for balance reasons, Besides, Protoss will just get an extra warp-gate, so it wouldn't even be a choice except for in the early game (which the research time nerf would address anyway). | ||
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barth
Ireland1272 Posts
On April 22 2011 19:06 Anomandaris wrote: This is awful. Changing warpgate will break any other matchup. PvP is very fun at the moment (as a player). There is a defender advantage and 4 gates can even be held with 3 gates (with good micro tough). Blink stalkers and phoenix make this matchup very fun. Altough the games are often short, they are very intense and require a lot of skill. If any change is really needed, Blizzard should remove the warpin-on-highground mechanic. How would this break other match-ups? If gateway build times were reduced it would definitely make up for it. I can't see any potential problems it would cause PvZ or PvT, besides the 4gate itself being weaker. Ask any top protoss player and he will tell you PvP is his least favorite match-up for being so volatile. Ask any non-protoss spectator and he will tell you PvP is his least favorite match-up. So far there doesn't seem to be a solid solution to 4gate PvP despite so much effort from protoss players put into finding one. Let's wait and potentially give it a try before absolute judgments. I feel like reducing stalker and sentry build by 5-8 seconds while leaving the zealot build time as it is (not to fiddle with double proxy gate) and having a cooldown for warpgates before the first warp-in would be interesting. Or just having warpgate upgrade take a little more time. Still, I don't think this would make gateways a viable option opposed to warpgate for mid and late game. God, I feel guilty for theorycrafting. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On April 22 2011 19:16 Binabik wrote: I don't think you can change the warpgate research time without breaking the game. Things like RoachRush and 2Racks All Ins only become defendable by warping in a sentry as soon as the warpgate tech is finished. You don't have time to wait another 40 seconds for the sentry to produce, because your first Force Field will be timed out and heÄs going to destroy you. PvP is going to be retarded without a fast Warp Gate and here are the reasons: -ProxyGates will be played more often because of reduced unit cooldown and on maps like close Meta/Shattered a 3 Gate Opening without gas will become standard. -Without 4Gate you can't punish an opponent who's going for some ridiculous tech such as 1 Gate DT or Phoenix. It's going to become a coin flip because you have to blindly chose which tech you get. With 4Gate that's not a big problem because you can just go Robo and defend against everything. -FE builds which make the other 2 Mirror MatchUps more enjoyable won't be used anyways. Warp Gate tech will still finish before the expansion gives any benefits. I think the only change which would improve the matchup is a good way to use static defense. Just give the Photon Cannon 7 range and Protoss can defend a ForgeExpand in PvP. But I hope I'm mistaken and PvP is going to be as interesting as TvT after the next patch. (I'm Protoss btw) edit: I actually like playing PvP as much as I like PvT and PvZ. But I understand that it is boring from a spectator's perspective and therefore it should be changed. That's wrong,you could just go for 1 gate 1 cyber 1 gate then chrono sentries like 3stalker play in PvP and you will have enough sentries. Just because most of the protoss go for a fast warp gate tech then warp in sentries doesn't mean you can't have unit without warp gate. You just need to change your style of play. | ||
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theBullFrog
United States515 Posts
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gnutz
Germany666 Posts
On April 22 2011 19:12 done wrote: lol @ everybody saying it will break the other matchups. At least one of them (probably both) already IS broken, so what harm could it possibly do? Nerfing Protoss at this moment can only lead to a better balanced game, simple as that. I am not even whining or complaining here, but at this stage its pretty much obvious protoss is the strongest race atm. and lol @ the zergs who think this will break the matchup more or what. Don't you even think about what this change is? - You get NOT more units out as Protoss. - With warpgates, you get LESS units out. - Protoss strategy is more obvious. - Proxys are no problem. They are not. The people complaining (Zergs and Protosses) don't realize what the change is, what they said. It is no buff to gateway-units. It is no nerf to gateway units. As far as i understand, it will just be a switch between gateway buildtimes and warpgate "buildtimes". And if you realize, that the problem now is, that warpgates are superior to gateways in every way. So you basically need to rush to warpgates as Protoss in every matchup, because it is balanced around warpgate buildtimes. It WILL be a huge change in design. But if it is balanced or not, if there will be problems or not, we cannot say. And there could be more patches with tweaks. I just think, as a Protoss player, this is a needed change. For the viewers. For the Protoss. And for the other races. | ||
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Archvil3
Denmark989 Posts
Warpgates reduces the production time of all gateway units by 10 seconds. Zealot, sentry and stalkers are 38-42 seconds on gateways so a warpgate reduces it by roughly 25%. or in other words an incresed production capacity of 33%. If you have 3 gateways and adds a fourth you are increasing your production capacity with 33% as well. Simple math right. So basicly 3 warpgates = 4 gateways. 3 warpgates+research costs = 500 minerals+50 gas. 4 gateways= 600 minerals. So basicly you are tradig 50 gas for 100 minerals, not that bad a tradeoff and certaintly not gamebreaking. In order for warpgate research to be viable from a produciton standpoint you need 4 gates or more. A protoss is using 4 gates or when he: 1. is 4-gating. Which is what we are nerfing. 2. is on 2 bases. At this point warpgate should be researched so a nerf will not have any effect which is intended. What this finally comes down to, if gateway production is unchanged while warpgate research time is increased, is that common Protoss builds like 3 gate robo or 3 gate expand becomes 4 gate robo and 4 gate expand, without warpgate and the only trade off being 100 minerals for 50 gas. If production time on gateways remains unchanged, all builds except 4 gates will remain the same. If producition time on gateways is decreased all builds except 4 gates are being buffed. | ||
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hifriend
China7935 Posts
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insolentrus
Russian Federation304 Posts
fix it, not the wg | ||
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Pekkz
Norway1505 Posts
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Samhax
1054 Posts
On April 22 2011 17:45 dacthehork wrote: The concept of early game warp technology was a flawed one 1. Warp Tech is required and happens at the beginning of the game 2. Warp Tech removes defenders advantage in terms of production timing / walk distance. Who could have foreseen that Warp Gate would create rush imbalances Warp Tech as a lategame upgrade just makes far more sense and fosters macro / skilled games (can't have that). Instead of moving warp gate to a much higher tier instead they have spent the last year balancing around having protoss able to eliminate map distance/size. I would say that warp gate must be a mid game upgrade, and all the early game must be with normal gateway. They just have to balance the early game with normal gate, that's not that hard i think. | ||
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FarbrorAbavna
Sweden4856 Posts
I dont play protoss and enjoy the micro intensive games that happens, sometimes, when both players go 4gate but mostly watching pvp is just ridiculous and needs a change so it can evolve beyond having the failsafe that is 4gate. I am excite! | ||
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On April 22 2011 19:26 Archvil3 wrote: Why, proven with the power of math, gateway production time does not need to be buffed in order to rebalance the Protoss after warpgate research nerf. Warpgates reduces the production time of all gateway units by 10 seconds. Zealot, sentry and stalkers are 38-42 seconds on gateways so a warpgate reduces it by roughly 25%. or in other words an incresed production capacity of 33%. If you have 3 gateways and adds a fourth you are increasing your production capacity with 33% as well. Simple math right. So basicly 3 warpgates = 4 gateways. 3 warpgates+research costs = 500 minerals+50 gas. 4 gateways= 600 minerals. So basicly you are tradig 50 gas for 100 minerals, not that bad a tradeoff and certaintly not gamebreaking. In order for warpgate research to be viable from a produciton standpoint you need 4 gates or more. A protoss is using 4 gates or when he: 1. is 4-gating. Which is what we are nerfing. 2. is on 2 bases. At this point warpgate should be researched so a nerf will not have any effect which is intended. What this finally comes down to, if gateway production is unchanged while warpgate research time is increased, is that common Protoss builds like 3 gate robo or 3 gate expand becomes 4 gate robo and 4 gate expand, without warpgate and the only trade off being 100 minerals for 50 gas. Production on all builds except 4 gates will remain unchanged. If Warpgate takes so long that you are on two bases by the time it finishes then there will be some serious balance issues. Bah, need to reword this | ||
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barth
Ireland1272 Posts
On April 22 2011 19:26 Archvil3 wrote: Why, proven with the power of math, gateway production time does not need to be buffed in order to rebalance the Protoss after warpgate research nerf. Warpgates reduces the production time of all gateway units by 10 seconds. Zealot, sentry and stalkers are 38-42 seconds on gateways so a warpgate reduces it by roughly 25%. or in other words an incresed production capacity of 33%. If you have 3 gateways and adds a fourth you are increasing your production capacity with 33% as well. Simple math right. So basicly 3 warpgates = 4 gateways. 3 warpgates+research costs = 500 minerals+50 gas. 4 gateways= 600 minerals. So basicly you are tradig 50 gas for 100 minerals, not that bad a tradeoff and certaintly not gamebreaking. In order for warpgate research to be viable from a produciton standpoint you need 4 gates or more. A protoss is using 4 gates or when he: 1. is 4-gating. Which is what we are nerfing. 2. is on 2 bases. At this point warpgate should be researched so a nerf will not have any effect which is intended. What this finally comes down to, if gateway production is unchanged while warpgate research time is increased, is that common Protoss builds like 3 gate robo or 3 gate expand becomes 4 gate robo and 4 gate expand, without warpgate and the only trade off being 100 minerals for 50 gas. Production on all builds except 4 gates will remain unchanged. I can't say I entirely disagree but I don' think that's 100% true. Firstly you probably, depending how much time would be added to the warpgate upgrade, have to start researching warpgate fairly early for most builds which would add 50/50 to the 600 minerals. Either that or a 5th gate which is probably even worse, considering you probably want to expand if you go 3warpgate/4gateway. Secondly, warpgates are not only different from gateways because of the build time and the ability to warp-in anywhere. For warpgates you pay for the unit at the end of the production cycle so to say. For gateways you pay for it in the beginning of the production cycle, ~40 seconds before you get the unit. 40 seconds is a lot. Then again, if regular gateway production time is changed all I said is probably obsolete. | ||
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Ichobicho
Norway79 Posts
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Archvil3
Denmark989 Posts
On April 22 2011 19:35 Dommk wrote: Not true. Warpgates tend to have some idle time as Protoss tech builds tend to use large sums of gas/minerals at once, so you cannot always produce out of your gateway every cooldown, thus the 10second build time increase is negligible when you start to tech. If Warpgate takes so long that you are on two bases by the time it finishes then there will be some serious balance issues. I am not sure how this will affect gateways but not warpgates. Production wise the only difference between 3 warpgates and 4 gateways is that warpgates warps in then gets a cooldown while gateways will have to produce the unit first. The end result is the same. Theoreticly you could say that the toss will be a round of warpins behind so up to 3 units will be delayed by 30 seconds, but I dont see how it could be any worse then that. | ||
Mojar
Australia185 Posts
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Lotar
132 Posts
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PopoChampion
Australia91 Posts
PvP seems like a coin flip for protoss players, but if a master level protoss played MC, MC would roll him. PvP can be won with good mechanics and good unit control. However, unlike PvP, there seems to be a blatant flaw in the design of ZvP, so I'm not sure why Blizzard isn't addressing it. A coin flip is 50-50, but a lot of zergs would agree to say that ZvP has a smaller chance than that. Still, I'm glad that Blizzard is hearing that PvP is a bit of a boring match up. Protoss players are getting pretty good and we're going to see more PvP finals, and seeing that in the current patch is quite disgusting to look at. Hopefully we'll see some awesome stuff out of the next patch! | ||
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Archvil3
Denmark989 Posts
On April 22 2011 19:37 barth wrote: I can't say I entirely disagree but I don' think that's 100% true. Firstly you probably, depending how much time would be added to the warpgate upgrade, have to start researching warpgate fairly early for most builds which would add 50/50 to the 600 minerals. Either that or a 5th gate which is probably even worse, considering you probably want to expand if you go 3warpgate/4gateway. Secondly, warpgates are not only different from gateways because of the build time and the ability to warp-in anywhere. For warpgates you pay for the unit at the end of the production cycle so to say. For gateways you pay for it in the beginning of the production cycle, ~40 seconds before you get the unit. 40 seconds is a lot. Then again, if regular gateway production time is changed all I said is probably obsolete. You are correct in a way. 1 unit cycle of up to 3 units in any 3gate build will be delayed by up to 30 seconds. Past that it will remain the same. | ||
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