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On April 22 2011 22:07 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 21:48 Dommk wrote:On April 22 2011 21:41 Huragius wrote:On April 22 2011 20:14 weaintmagical87 wrote:
bad bad bad idea increasing warp gate cooldown they re breaking pvt right there where p is alrdy by far the underdog In platinum ? Yeah. Higher than that - PvT is almost as a fucking joke as PvZ. No wonder so many Terrans switched to Protoss and even EmpireKas is laddering as Protoss now. No balance whine, but currently Protoss is favoured in all match-ups, and working on warp-gates is a good thing to begin with. But I think Proxy Gateway build in Terran's base will be too strong with this change. Are you serious? Since when has the match been "almost as a joke as PvZ"? That is so absurd. Grass is always greener on the other side, whatever KaS is doing with Protoss, and however good he may be, he wont be switching, it is the same when Zergs "Switching to Terrans". I can't even fathom how anyone can consider the match up this bad when you have players like Bomber,MKP MVP and MMA just crushing Protoss so convincingly, even players just as good like San/MC. Bomber vs White-ra had some if the most one sided games I've ever seen. Not to mention the cognitive dissonance when you say "no balance whine" but call the match "as much as a joke as PvZ" the sentence before. Mhm, MKP MVP and MMA crushing Protoss ? Doesn't seem so. And Bombers TvP is his best match-up. Actually, these four Terran are freaking good and in my eyes players like San is really far behind skill wise, but yet they still manage to take long macro games with 100 apm against Terrans like IMMVP whose APM triples his, I mean, how can this happen in such a late stage of the game ? Yeah, there are games where Terran dominates protoss, but just because he opened with cheesy build and inflicted serious damage or did some sick drop play which was poorly defended by Protoss. If Protoss scouts and knows it's coming, you simply can't do a shit to him and without all this Terran's fancy stuff in TvP, they don't look so strong, it's even quite the opposite. Now, TvP relies on how much can you out-multitask protoss with cheesy stuff, but simply can't do this kind of play against equally skilled protoss, not even talking about a situation where protoss is more skilled. And why to use Bomber vs WhiteRa as a example ? So lets take someone like Haypro vs IMMVP and draw conclusions from this Bo5 ?
That is purely a subjective analysis from yourself. What about games like Boxer recent matches where just turtles just as much as Protoss, his drops barely do enough damage and he wins after getting a few EMPS.
Or MVP's match against San, where San opened DT's and did some serious damage, he was a head all game in army, workers and upgrade up until the point where MVP managed to get 3 EMPS on Sans army and roll it in less than 4seconds.
You have Ganzi playing some impressive PvT as well, the match up could have easily gone either way. Pretty ridiculous to say that the Terran has to either cheese or completely outclass the Protoss to win when there are a LOT of Terran beating Protoss still
I kinda get a kick out of people complaining about this match up considering there are so many Terrans that are still doing well and how long it had been favored towards Terran for the length of SC2.
I reference Bomber vs White-ra's game because Bomber played different styles every game and made it look so one sided, when someone can play that well and make someone like White-ra look like a scrub in a BO7 then you know that people have a lot of room to improve if they are doing poorly vs Protoss as Terran
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I'm not sure how they want to tweak numbers while leaving the other matchups intact.
I'd rather see changes to the warp-in mechanic. My suggestion would be having the warp-in process take a bit longer and the warping units being more vulnerable during that time. This would make it harder to warp in units very offensively up a cliff or generally directly in the opponent's face. For example, units could take a second longer to be warped in, and have no shields during the process.
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why are u talking about terrans, emp, balance in a thread about the future of pvp?
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Reducing the power of 4 gate can only be good for the game. Protoss has such cool units that we almost never see in PvP, hopefully if the 4 gate change is significant enough things like phoenix play will see some more action.
For other matchups I think it's also a nice change. Even though I don't think it was too strong, it was rather easy to 4 gate to master league.
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They're going in a good direction, and I'm happy to see a benefit to using gateways in the early game compared to Warp Gates.
However I think the fundamental problem with Warp Gates is that they come too fast for the benefit they bring. 0~ rush distance ~5 minutes into the game is just bad game design. Moving them over to the Twilight Council would reinstate the defenders advantage early game while giving Protoss a nice transition into them mid game.
It might also allow Blizzard to buff gateway units and balance the Protoss composition better.
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On April 22 2011 18:02 MapleLeafSirup wrote:
@ all people complaining:
How the hell do YOU want to know how the game will change after such a change ?
After EVERY patch people complain and go like
"oh no now this game will be this and that way"
"oh no this matchup will be broken"
"oh no blizzard doesn't know what they're doing"
In fact they know a lot more than you and your theorycrafting based on far too little knowledge won't be as near the truth as the deep researches of blizzard who created the most balanced RTS ever (BroodWar) and have gotten SC2 more and more balanced with the time
Remember when the roach range was buffed from 3 to 4? There were hundreds of pages people complaining about how the game will be broken and super-overpowered mass roaches will dominate every matchup... and now imagine roaches would still have a range of 3...
Just give it some time! I don't mean you should not theorycraft and make some assumptions but you should not just insta-critisize zhr new patch before it has even be released
This.
Nobody can understand how it will effect the game yet.
We don't even know what the exact change is.
Please relax.
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There'd be a nice and easy fix to prevent proxy-gate rushes from going overboard with that new change to gateways.
Simply have all the units coming out of non-upgraded gateways have the same build time, say: 37 game-time seconds.
Compared to the gateways we have right now, we would have that:
Zealots build 1 second faster (should not impact rushes whatsoever)
Stalkers and sentries build 5 seconds faster
Templars build 18 seconds faster
Compared to warpgates:
Zealots build 9 seconds slower
Stalkers and sentries build 5 seconds slower
Templars build 8 seconds faster
Now, this would be a buff to templars, of course, but I don't think that people would sacrifice the warp possibility in order to have 18% faster templars, except in very specific and odd cases.
It would not change DT rushes either, since when you do such a rush you warp the DTs as soon as the dark shrine completes, whilst with non-warping gateways you'd still have to wait for 37 seconds after the dark shrine.
In fact, my solution might be the only way to save the possibility of somewhat early DT rushes, because, if I understand Blizzard, it might now be impossible to have warp gate tech researched in time for your early DTs.
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9/9 on 2p maps if they like reduce zealot/stalker bo time is going to give even a bigger advantage than it does already when executed properly.
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On April 22 2011 22:18 Striding Strider wrote:
They're going in a good direction, and I'm happy to see a benefit to using gateways in the early game compared to Warp Gates.
However I think the fundamental problem with Warp Gates is that they come too fast for the benefit they bring. 0~ rush distance ~5 minutes into the game is just bad game design. Moving them over to the Twilight Council would reinstate the defenders advantage early game while giving Protoss a nice transition into them mid game.
It might also allow Blizzard to buff gateway units and balance the Protoss composition better.
This has been covered in the thread, but moving the upgrade to the twilight council would make warp prisms really bad as you'd need to span 2 different tech trees just to regenerate your harassing units in the early mid game. (like putting medivac heal as an upgrade on the armory)
Also gateway units are fine when sentries are present (force fields let zealots do their full dps and guardian shields let stalkers compete with other ranged) and the fact that they need to build energy makes them a lot harder to reinforce which evens out the rush distance, this is likely by design as their gas heavy nature puts them in direct competition for tech units (high templar, collosus, immortals) which fill other niches in the gateway army.
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On April 22 2011 22:11 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 22:10 ondik wrote:
I didn't read the whole thread but why are people suddenly talking about longer WG cooldown, when OP only mentions longer WG research? People don't trust Blizzard, so they're making random suggestions.
But..it doesn't even make any sense? I mean the change would be so big and basicly change the game..
As for this topic - I like that blizzard's looking into it. When I was thinking about it few months ago, my idea was to make WG upgrade 100/100, it would solve 4gating in PvP and wouldn't have any significant impact on other matchups. Plus such a key upgrade should be more expensive in my opinion. Let's hope blizz can find a way to buff gw, nerf wg and still maintaining the game balanced.
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tired of retarded protoss players telling terrans to buid other units, omg like your the first person to ever think of that. Any opening thats not bio will lose to 4gate / void rays / blink stalker and transitioning later means zero upgrades, zero production buildings, high likelyness of being runover by 6gate or 2base colossus or anything pretty much. Not to mention chargelots counter ALL mech.
And i'm tired of retarded Terran that don't kno fuckall saying the only way you can win is with mass bio then complaining when you get crushed by Collossus or Hts or even double forge openings.
Don't even pretend like you know everything T can do nobody does it's way to early in the game for that and why has Terran been stuck in this rutt with mass bio play?? because it's the only viable teck path? NO it's that it's the path thats the easiest to play and the most explored since it's been around since beta
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If 4gate won't be a standart, wouldn't we see only collosuss? That would be pretty boring to watch unless they do something with this too.
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this is like saying we're seeing too much roach in zvz so roach warren is now tier 2. roach now builds faster. -___-
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On April 22 2011 22:27 TrANCE, wrote:Show nested quote +tired of retarded protoss players telling terrans to buid other units, omg like your the first person to ever think of that. Any opening thats not bio will lose to 4gate / void rays / blink stalker and transitioning later means zero upgrades, zero production buildings, high likelyness of being runover by 6gate or 2base colossus or anything pretty much. Not to mention chargelots counter ALL mech. And i'm tired of retarded Terran that don't kno fuckall saying the only way you can win is with mass bio then complaining when you get crushed by Collossus or Hts or even double forge openings. Don't even pretend like you know everything T can do nobody does it's way to early in the game for that and why has Terran been stuck in this rutt with mass bio play?? because it's the only viable teck path? NO it's that it's the path thats the easiest to play and the most explored since it's been around since beta
In beta mech was standard in TvP, until tanks got nerfed twice, try again. Also, plenty of Terrans are playing mech or biomech nowadays, making your rant sound pretty uninformed.
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@Huragius Only after Nani and Kiwi got to finals, and MC winning twice GSL, did complains start about Protoss. Before that it was seen as the weakest race. I ask you to think what change made that because for a lot of people seems like its clear that players have no merit for their wins. Was it the phoenix buff? Cheaper observer? Perhaps KA removal? 
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On April 22 2011 22:23 Dingobloo wrote:
This has been covered in the thread, but moving the upgrade to the twilight council would make warp prisms really bad as you'd need to span 2 different tech trees just to regenerate your harassing units in the early mid game.
I disagree. It's not like Warp Prisms are entirely useless without Warp Gates, they can still load up troops and drop like Medievacs. All you would need to do is move your troops to a forward position to reload. Nothing terribly complicated.
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I really don't like the expample they gave us, if they reduce gateway time people are just gonna start double proxy gateway rushing.
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If 4gate won't be a standart, wouldn't we see only collosuss? That would be pretty boring to watch unless they do something with this too.
If everyone starts rushing for collosuss im betting we are gonna start se some people start going mass Pheonix.
The point is, there are counters to Collosus. But right now there are no good alternativs to 4gate in PvP (yeah yeah, 3 gate stalkers works IF you find the pylon)
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Man, this thread turned into angsty terran crying fast considering its about PvP
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On April 22 2011 22:32 Striding Strider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 22:23 Dingobloo wrote:
This has been covered in the thread, but moving the upgrade to the twilight council would make warp prisms really bad as you'd need to span 2 different tech trees just to regenerate your harassing units in the early mid game. I disagree. It's not like Warp Prisms are entirely useless without Warp Gates, they can still load up troops and drop like Medievacs. All you would need to do is move your troops to a forward position to reload. Nothing terribly complicated.
And medivacs aren't useless without healing, but it crushes the synergy of the units with warp gates for the sake of a balance change that can be achieved in other ways (for instance by increasing the research time)
Bio can be healed, gateway units can be warped in to replace, it adds flavor and utility to an otherwise boring unit in a way that is unique to the race and as a balance change would be the last resort.
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EPT
