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Starcraft is dying out in popularity, both broodwar and sc2. People get bored of stuff and move on. in 5 years time both brood war, and sc2 will only have minor competitions. Like what wc3 is now haha. If blizzard actually bothered to make a game that was actually original and not just a update of bw, people would have a reason to switch over and watch it.
Also, blizzard have no idea what they are doing.
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GSL right now...almost every game under 10 minutes..
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On January 07 2011 21:08 kwkwookw wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 20:59 rasers wrote:On January 07 2011 20:09 G3nXsiS wrote:
I really don't understand why koreans don't wanna watch sc2. Aside from the fact sc1 is broadcasted on TV, theres no reason not to watch sc2. I really dont understand why koreans should watch SCII. its terrible. BW is better. so why should they watch SCII?. not just koreans, but anyone.
They watch it cause it's new. Normal thing.
That's why i really don't think time will help sc2, unless there are some major changes done (which is pretty unlikely, if you ask me).
As long as it goes, more and more people will realize bw keeps being better, and players will grow tired of the not so new game.
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On January 07 2011 21:14 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 10:41 Thetan wrote:
It all really comes down to the fact that the matches aren't interesting in the GSL. Foreigner games, on the other hand, are much more enjoyable - so you can't completely blame the shitty maps or balance.
I think a big issue is that Koreans are playing SC2 like it's SC1. You could become a decent SC1 pro just by having good mechanics and memorizing some strict build orders - even if you don't know why the build orders you do are good. In SC1, where certain people really understood the game, you didn't need to understand the game to be good, you just had to copy the ppl who do.
In SC2, the koreans all do the same cheesy flavor of the month build. They don't try to learn the game, they just try to learn builds. Which is why we see little innovation out of most of the Korean players, which makes watching Korean games boring.
What I noticed in a few games during the GSL is that strategically sound players (fruitdealer, Ret) got beat because their opponents responded the *wrong* way to what they saw while fruitdeal/Ret planned ahead to counter the *right* response.
I remember a story about how Roger Clemens hated rehabbing in the minor leagues, because the small mind games with pitch selection and location that gave Clemens an advantage over experienced major league players didn't work on minor leaguers who just swung at everything.
I feel the same thing is happening in SC2 right now. Truly strong, awe-inspiring play and strategy cannot emerge until all the players have an advanced understanding of the game. And right now, we are nowhere close to that. You cannot play a strategy game if even one of the sides doesn't understand the strategy of the game. Apologies if it's already been addressed, but i must ask.... what in the world is this trash?
if im not mistaken even artosis once said that
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Studio seems packed, I guess sc2 must have had some kind of resurgence since milkis wrote his piece. Whatever GOM is doing theyre doing it right now. Gonna pull some big numbers as well, doesnt matter from where, and out of my ass I can prove a point that sc2 is winning and bw is gonna die. So sc2 is gonna pwn the world and overshadow regular sports. Is this thread worthy? surely it must be otherwise this thread would be closed by now.
Boy it feels good to contribute to the community....but wait here's a hint: I'm not. Just contributing to trolls like these instead:
On January 07 2011 20:59 rasers wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 20:09 G3nXsiS wrote:
I really don't understand why koreans don't wanna watch sc2. Aside from the fact sc1 is broadcasted on TV, theres no reason not to watch sc2. I really dont understand why koreans should watch SCII. its terrible. BW is better. so why should they watch SCII?.
On January 07 2011 21:08 kwkwookw wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 20:59 rasers wrote:On January 07 2011 20:09 G3nXsiS wrote:
I really don't understand why koreans don't wanna watch sc2. Aside from the fact sc1 is broadcasted on TV, theres no reason not to watch sc2. I really dont understand why koreans should watch SCII. its terrible. BW is better. so why should they watch SCII?. not just koreans, but anyone.
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On January 07 2011 21:25 FarbrorAbavna wrote:Studio seems packed, I guess sc2 must have had some kind of resurgence since milkis wrote his piece. Whatever GOM is doing theyre doing it right now. Gonna pull some big numbers as well, doesnt matter from where, and out of my ass I can prove a point that sc2 is winning and bw is gonna die. So sc2 is gonna pwn the world and overshadow regular sports. Is this thread worthy? surely it must be otherwise this thread would be closed by now. Boy it feels good to contribute to the community....but wait here's a hint: I'm not. Just contributing to trolls like these instead: Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 20:59 rasers wrote:On January 07 2011 20:09 G3nXsiS wrote:
I really don't understand why koreans don't wanna watch sc2. Aside from the fact sc1 is broadcasted on TV, theres no reason not to watch sc2. I really dont understand why koreans should watch SCII. its terrible. BW is better. so why should they watch SCII?. Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 21:08 kwkwookw wrote:On January 07 2011 20:59 rasers wrote:On January 07 2011 20:09 G3nXsiS wrote:
I really don't understand why koreans don't wanna watch sc2. Aside from the fact sc1 is broadcasted on TV, theres no reason not to watch sc2. I really dont understand why koreans should watch SCII. its terrible. BW is better. so why should they watch SCII?. not just koreans, but anyone.
post date is labeled on every post....
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If only GSL was as popular as this thread 
Just think about this, how many times does the korean casters go AAAAAAAAAW!! in an average SC2 game compares to BW? My estimation is like 5:1 in BW's favor. That's what the audience wants. The games are played to boring, we need more people like TLO and crazy shit like Boxers mass OC build
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On January 07 2011 21:24 imperator-xy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 21:14 ShadeR wrote:On January 07 2011 10:41 Thetan wrote:
It all really comes down to the fact that the matches aren't interesting in the GSL. Foreigner games, on the other hand, are much more enjoyable - so you can't completely blame the shitty maps or balance.
I think a big issue is that Koreans are playing SC2 like it's SC1. You could become a decent SC1 pro just by having good mechanics and memorizing some strict build orders - even if you don't know why the build orders you do are good. In SC1, where certain people really understood the game, you didn't need to understand the game to be good, you just had to copy the ppl who do.
In SC2, the koreans all do the same cheesy flavor of the month build. They don't try to learn the game, they just try to learn builds. Which is why we see little innovation out of most of the Korean players, which makes watching Korean games boring.
What I noticed in a few games during the GSL is that strategically sound players (fruitdealer, Ret) got beat because their opponents responded the *wrong* way to what they saw while fruitdeal/Ret planned ahead to counter the *right* response.
I remember a story about how Roger Clemens hated rehabbing in the minor leagues, because the small mind games with pitch selection and location that gave Clemens an advantage over experienced major league players didn't work on minor leaguers who just swung at everything.
I feel the same thing is happening in SC2 right now. Truly strong, awe-inspiring play and strategy cannot emerge until all the players have an advanced understanding of the game. And right now, we are nowhere close to that. You cannot play a strategy game if even one of the sides doesn't understand the strategy of the game. Apologies if it's already been addressed, but i must ask.... what in the world is this trash? if im not mistaken even artosis once said that
Yes and Artosis has a stake in SC2's success so i don't really blame him...his livelihood depends on it.
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Blizzard should have used the popularity of Brood War as a buffer. They damn well should have known that Starcraft II wasn't going to be perfect out of the box. No amount of game design can anticipate the breaking-and-bending phase that comes with just about every popular competitive game. I guess that legal pissing match with KeSPA precluded them from giving the greenlight to a Brood War scene that coexists with their new child.
On January 07 2011 21:15 stroggos wrote:
Starcraft is dying out in popularity, both broodwar and sc2. People get bored of stuff and move on. in 5 years time both brood war, and sc2 will only have minor competitions. Like what wc3 is now haha.
What "minor competitions. Like what wc3 is now" may look like:
Chinese government has announced that biggest WarCraft 3 league in history will kick-off on January 2010. Called CEPL (Chine E-Sports Premier league), this league will feature best WC3 teams fighting each other for the solid prize pot. All players will live in Bejing permanently during the whole tournament and it will be featured on all major Chinese TV channels, as long as on radio and in newspapers.
http://www.rage-esports.com/news/warcraft-3-news-163/
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On January 07 2011 21:46 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 21:24 imperator-xy wrote:On January 07 2011 21:14 ShadeR wrote:On January 07 2011 10:41 Thetan wrote:
It all really comes down to the fact that the matches aren't interesting in the GSL. Foreigner games, on the other hand, are much more enjoyable - so you can't completely blame the shitty maps or balance.
I think a big issue is that Koreans are playing SC2 like it's SC1. You could become a decent SC1 pro just by having good mechanics and memorizing some strict build orders - even if you don't know why the build orders you do are good. In SC1, where certain people really understood the game, you didn't need to understand the game to be good, you just had to copy the ppl who do.
In SC2, the koreans all do the same cheesy flavor of the month build. They don't try to learn the game, they just try to learn builds. Which is why we see little innovation out of most of the Korean players, which makes watching Korean games boring.
What I noticed in a few games during the GSL is that strategically sound players (fruitdealer, Ret) got beat because their opponents responded the *wrong* way to what they saw while fruitdeal/Ret planned ahead to counter the *right* response.
I remember a story about how Roger Clemens hated rehabbing in the minor leagues, because the small mind games with pitch selection and location that gave Clemens an advantage over experienced major league players didn't work on minor leaguers who just swung at everything.
I feel the same thing is happening in SC2 right now. Truly strong, awe-inspiring play and strategy cannot emerge until all the players have an advanced understanding of the game. And right now, we are nowhere close to that. You cannot play a strategy game if even one of the sides doesn't understand the strategy of the game. Apologies if it's already been addressed, but i must ask.... what in the world is this trash? if im not mistaken even artosis once said that Yes and Artosis has a stake in SC2's success so i don't really blame him...his livelihood depends on it.
Artosis also moved to Korea to try to become a BW pro and failed, so...
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On January 07 2011 12:49 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 12:37 SubtleArt wrote:On January 07 2011 10:29 HunterStarcraft wrote:
These stats surprised me a lot. GSL is the only SC2 I watch religiously because the total talent pool is way larger than any other event. Their online base + subsbriber revenue must be very significant compared to live attendance. I'm sure popularity overall will grow a lot as more Korean players (and viewers) switch over. The talent pool is a joke lol. ogsMC's illustrious brood war was him going 1-9 and NesTea was a horrible ~30% Zerg. Until we get real plers in GSL it's gonna be stale. Also you see so many better players getting knocked out by worse players cause the worse player decided to do a 50/50 all in thats ridiculously strong on a map (like 4 warps on delta) and takes skill completely out of the equation. Maps dont help obviously, and shakuras and metal are the only maps i've seen that can consistently deliver interesting games but still, GSL is going to be boring as long as its filled with nothing but brood war rejects and war3 players  SlayerS_BoxeR was a god in BW and he hasn't achieved anything great in SC2, same goes for NaDa, July is in Code A for christ's sake. Talent in BW does not translate directly into talent in SC2. Don't know the real reasons for this, but I'd dare say that even current top BW players would have some difficulties adapting to the game at the beginning. Except jaedong he's too good haha.
Boxer and Nada had both been irrelevant in brood war for years. Boxer was something like rank 230 in kespa when he quit for sc2 lol
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On January 07 2011 13:13 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 13:01 baubo wrote:On January 07 2011 12:49 mordk wrote:On January 07 2011 12:37 SubtleArt wrote:On January 07 2011 10:29 HunterStarcraft wrote:
These stats surprised me a lot. GSL is the only SC2 I watch religiously because the total talent pool is way larger than any other event. Their online base + subsbriber revenue must be very significant compared to live attendance. I'm sure popularity overall will grow a lot as more Korean players (and viewers) switch over. The talent pool is a joke lol. ogsMC's illustrious brood war was him going 1-9 and NesTea was a horrible ~30% Zerg. Until we get real plers in GSL it's gonna be stale. Also you see so many better players getting knocked out by worse players cause the worse player decided to do a 50/50 all in thats ridiculously strong on a map (like 4 warps on delta) and takes skill completely out of the equation. Maps dont help obviously, and shakuras and metal are the only maps i've seen that can consistently deliver interesting games but still, GSL is going to be boring as long as its filled with nothing but brood war rejects and war3 players SlayerS_BoxeR was a god in BW and he hasn't achieved anything great in SC2, same goes for NaDa, July is in Code A for christ's sake. Talent in BW does not translate directly into talent in SC2. Don't know the real reasons for this, but I'd dare say that even current top BW players would have some difficulties adapting to the game at the beginning. Except jaedong he's too good haha. Umm... Boxer/Nada/July at this point aren't capable of top level BW games anymore. If there's any indication of the lack of talent in SC2, it would be that MVP looks like fucking Flash in SC2. SERIOUSLY, MVP. To be fair, MVP had a few decent games in scbw - and c ompare his competition versus SC2 opponents to what he was playing against as a pro in SCBW.I want to emphasize few though. Very very few.
That's what we're saying, the competition is awful
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On January 07 2011 21:52 aru wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 21:46 ShadeR wrote:On January 07 2011 21:24 imperator-xy wrote:On January 07 2011 21:14 ShadeR wrote:On January 07 2011 10:41 Thetan wrote:
It all really comes down to the fact that the matches aren't interesting in the GSL. Foreigner games, on the other hand, are much more enjoyable - so you can't completely blame the shitty maps or balance.
I think a big issue is that Koreans are playing SC2 like it's SC1. You could become a decent SC1 pro just by having good mechanics and memorizing some strict build orders - even if you don't know why the build orders you do are good. In SC1, where certain people really understood the game, you didn't need to understand the game to be good, you just had to copy the ppl who do.
In SC2, the koreans all do the same cheesy flavor of the month build. They don't try to learn the game, they just try to learn builds. Which is why we see little innovation out of most of the Korean players, which makes watching Korean games boring.
What I noticed in a few games during the GSL is that strategically sound players (fruitdealer, Ret) got beat because their opponents responded the *wrong* way to what they saw while fruitdeal/Ret planned ahead to counter the *right* response.
I remember a story about how Roger Clemens hated rehabbing in the minor leagues, because the small mind games with pitch selection and location that gave Clemens an advantage over experienced major league players didn't work on minor leaguers who just swung at everything.
I feel the same thing is happening in SC2 right now. Truly strong, awe-inspiring play and strategy cannot emerge until all the players have an advanced understanding of the game. And right now, we are nowhere close to that. You cannot play a strategy game if even one of the sides doesn't understand the strategy of the game. Apologies if it's already been addressed, but i must ask.... what in the world is this trash? if im not mistaken even artosis once said that Yes and Artosis has a stake in SC2's success so i don't really blame him...his livelihood depends on it. Artosis also moved to Korea to try to become a BW pro and failed, so...
That might be the most stupid argument I've ever seen. How many foreigners succeeded in doing that? Very few.
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On January 07 2011 21:50 MichaelJLowell wrote:Chinese government has announced that biggest WarCraft 3 league in history will kick-off on January 2010. Called CEPL (Chine E-Sports Premier league), this league will feature best WC3 teams fighting each other for the solid prize pot. All players will live in Bejing permanently during the whole tournament and it will be featured on all major Chinese TV channels, as long as on radio and in newspapers. http://www.rage-esports.com/news/warcraft-3-news-163/
Holy mother of god! Love to everyone in China, you guys are awesome!
EDIT:
On January 07 2011 21:57 nkr wrote:
That might be the most stupid argument I've ever seen. How many foreigners succeeded in doing that? Very few.
Two-  Grrrr.... and  ElkY
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After a while, SC2 just becomes boring to watch. The most entertaining thing about GSL is Tastosis.
The games, however, are lacking. Many, micro-encouraging units like the Reaper and the Lurker were removed and had bland replacements. Most games now boil down to either
a) rushes/early game cheese which exploit racial imbalances (each race being close to 50% wins doesn't automatically mean all races are balanced at all states of the game)
b) A-moving unit ball A vs unit ball B.
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On January 07 2011 21:55 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 13:13 Comeh wrote:On January 07 2011 13:01 baubo wrote:On January 07 2011 12:49 mordk wrote:On January 07 2011 12:37 SubtleArt wrote:On January 07 2011 10:29 HunterStarcraft wrote:
These stats surprised me a lot. GSL is the only SC2 I watch religiously because the total talent pool is way larger than any other event. Their online base + subsbriber revenue must be very significant compared to live attendance. I'm sure popularity overall will grow a lot as more Korean players (and viewers) switch over. The talent pool is a joke lol. ogsMC's illustrious brood war was him going 1-9 and NesTea was a horrible ~30% Zerg. Until we get real plers in GSL it's gonna be stale. Also you see so many better players getting knocked out by worse players cause the worse player decided to do a 50/50 all in thats ridiculously strong on a map (like 4 warps on delta) and takes skill completely out of the equation. Maps dont help obviously, and shakuras and metal are the only maps i've seen that can consistently deliver interesting games but still, GSL is going to be boring as long as its filled with nothing but brood war rejects and war3 players SlayerS_BoxeR was a god in BW and he hasn't achieved anything great in SC2, same goes for NaDa, July is in Code A for christ's sake. Talent in BW does not translate directly into talent in SC2. Don't know the real reasons for this, but I'd dare say that even current top BW players would have some difficulties adapting to the game at the beginning. Except jaedong he's too good haha. Umm... Boxer/Nada/July at this point aren't capable of top level BW games anymore. If there's any indication of the lack of talent in SC2, it would be that MVP looks like fucking Flash in SC2. SERIOUSLY, MVP. To be fair, MVP had a few decent games in scbw - and c ompare his competition versus SC2 opponents to what he was playing against as a pro in SCBW.I want to emphasize few though. Very very few. That's what we're saying, the competition is awful
I just don't seem to understand why anybody is surprised by this. No amount of Brood War training was going to save the Brood War community from Starcraft II's feeling-out phase.
On January 07 2011 21:58 sqrt wrote:
Holy mother of god! Love to everyone in China, you guys are awesome!
I don't get why everyone badmouths the Chinese government.[/snark]
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On  January 07 2011 21:58 sqrt wrote: Holy mother of god! Love to everyone in China, you guys are awesome! EDIT: Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 21:57 nkr wrote:That might be the most stupid argument I've ever seen. How many foreigners succeeded in doing that? Very few. Two- Grrrr.... and ElkY
Legionnaire Also he all killed and untill recently held the record for most kills on a single reaver =] His record is even more impressive when you take into account it was PvP.
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just finished watching gsl and really liked it .. i think many of you take that way to seriuos. tastosis are really funny and entertaining to watch  games were entertaining also. BW pro games are quite similar most of the times .. e.g. TvZ : 2 hatch or 3 hatch mutas .. marine rush or defense, build turrets just in time .. muta harass .. game finished/decided 90 % of the time then.
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As many have mentioned a lot of the problems stem from the small maps which favor quick rushes instead of macro games. The ladder maps will never get bigger since these are shared over all leagues, so it's all up to the GSL to introduce bigger maps. Now that we have code S tournaments without open qualifiers it will hopefully be easier for them to change the maps.
I even recall a Blizzard employee saying that they expected tournaments to use custom maps. This is the only way to go and would greatly improve the entertainment value.
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EPT
