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On January 07 2011 21:19 Deadlyhazard wrote:
GSL right now...almost every game under 10 minutes..
Take off your rose colored glasses, plenty of Brood War matches last less than 10 minutes in the Proleague and OSL/MSL.
The following are just a few vods of the last few weeks of Brood War pro games that I'll assemble quicky, each under 10 minutes of game length...
OSL Ro8, Hiya vs Stork (played two days ago)
+ Show Spoiler +
OSL Ro16, Calm vs Hogil
+ Show Spoiler +
OSL Ro16, Paralyze vs Kal
+ Show Spoiler +
OSL Ro16, Hiya vs Calm
+ Show Spoiler +
OSL Ro16, Shine vs Stork
+ Show Spoiler +
OSL Ro16, Hydra vs Modesty
+ Show Spoiler +
OSL Ro16, Jaedong vs Calm
+ Show Spoiler +
The oldest video from this set is from the last week of December, 2010. These are not all of the games lasting less than 10 minutes; just what I could recall offhand and what I found quickly while browsing through the OSL threads.
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People, especially new users seem to really miss what the Korean Brood War scene is all about. It's about the players and the months and years of history the fans have with them.
The koreans and for us foreigners teamliquid (coverage, translations and the community in general) always made sure to build up the players. Take OGN's and MBC's opening ceremony for instance. Koreans love their talk-show setup and the pre-hype it creates for the up and coming games simply cannot be compared to what GSL is doing with their players.
For two season GOM did nothing...nothing but throw games after games at us hoping that the game itself would suffice to provide entertainment. They can be really glad that old school icons like Boxer, Nada, July and Rainbow are in the scene. If you're new you may not realise the magnitude of a player like Boxer and Nada. The sheer history they have with the game and korean fans goes beyond what westerners have ever experienced with their own E-Sports players.
Some of you might say "Yeah we had that in Counter-Strike and then later on CoDMW aswel". No you didnt. You simply cannot compare. Boxer did not become famous because he just won many games in his prime. That is not the point. When the fourth Bonjwa rised to the top the media (luckily for sAviOr he had CJ behind his back) did their utmost best to push him to the top. The Superfights, a series of huge ass show matches put him in the spotlight. And what was once one of the most hated players on Teamliquid became over time one of the most beloved Zergs of all times.
While everything changed after sAviOr it stills holds true that if you beat a Bonjwa in a final in his prime, you will get famous. Flash & Jaedong both have the fortune and misfortune to have each other. They continued the tradition of creating a rivalry for the history books, but it's no secret that for a long time they stood in each others way for one of them to hit Bonjwa status.
What does all of this tell us? For one it's easy for anyone who followed the Broodwar scene over time to reminisce about history, but it's about way more. Everyone has their favorite players. It goes beyond what team they're in and race they play.
Once you become a fan of someone you dont care how they win, you will sit at the edge of your seat regardless. Every move makes you nervous. Having your favorite player, who you've been a fan for so long, reach the finals and then win it? Pow! Fist in the air. No greater feeling for a spectator. And that is why people go to live games. To root and shout for their player in unison.
We're still at the stage where many root for a race and not specific players. Right now oGsMC has it in his hands, I even want to go as far as to say it's his responsibility, for the sake of his status and Starcraft2 to stay on the very top. Because that is what the people want. They want their heros and villans. Tragic stories and cute little sidenotes. And around the players this mass, this cluster of communities, reporters, coverage and hype forms. That is what it's all about. And NOT about Blizzard and KeSpa and this shitstorm of noise. That does not help E-Sports whatsoever.
It's all about the players.
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On January 07 2011 16:45 phosphorylation wrote:
And people who say that live audience is NOT important is missing on a huge point.
Do you know why BW was and is such a phenomenon in korea? Of course, it IS a miraculously good game. But besides that, the audience has developed a close and PERSONAL bond with individual players and teams. They go to live events, interact directly with players, and become hardcore fangirl/fanboys for players and teams. Just watch any recent proleague matches to see what i mean. They have formed a CULTURE of their own -- and this cannot be created by online setting alone. This is one of the major reasons for BW's longetivity and strength.
I also think this is of huge importance, many seem to miss on that.
It's not so much the game itself, but the actual PLAYERS behind it. People don't go to the stadium to see some random pro playing a game, they go to the stadium seeing JAE-FRICKIN-DONG and cheering for him no matter how bad he plays or how crazy his strats are. Same holds true for the teams themsevles to some extent.
It's exactly the same with real life sports. You don't care what "strategy" your favourite sports-team uses, you go to the stadium to just "see" them, to cheer them on because you want them to win. This aspect misses completely in SC2, SC2 hasn't managed to develop those "characters" yet - it has definitly started to some extent with players like Tester, Fruitdealer and recently MC.
My core point being: let's just suppose for one second, that all the great current BW-pros would start playing SC2 tomorrow, out of some random reason. I can guarantee you, no matter if they got stomped hard, people would come to cheer them on.
EDIT: funnily it seems as if I've been Ninja'd on this one lol
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Well lets look at the situation here. You Have:
Starcraft: Brood War, one of the biggest PC games of all time, broadcast on TV and easily one of the biggest games in Korea even after all these years. Many people have got good at the game, learned how it is played, and have grown attatched to it. More mechanically focused and arguably requires more skill.
Against
Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty. 1/3rd of the full Starcraft II. Not fully balanced. 2 expansions still to be released. Only a handful of big names switching over. Bigger in the west than it is in Korea. More strategic and requires a bit more creativity but less mechanical skill. Better to watch but no one wants to watch it yet.
If you ask me we just need to give it time. Once Legacy of the Void is released after the second coming of Jesus Christ then the pros will start to switch over (Flash has already confirmed he will in about 5 years, claims that he and Jaedong will run this bitch again, which heavily implies that Jaedong will be making a switch too) and with them comes the general audience. It just needs to grow. But as it stands Brood War is the better option.
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On January 07 2011 22:09 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:just finished watching gsl and really liked it .. i think many of you take that way to seriuos. tastosis are really funny and entertaining to watch  games were entertaining also. BW pro games are quite similar most of the times .. e.g. TvZ : 2 hatch or 3 hatch mutas .. marine rush or defense, build turrets just in time .. muta harass .. game finished/decided 90 % of the time then.
Currently watching OSL games. I have to vehemently disagree.
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On January 07 2011 22:11 Hikko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 21:19 Deadlyhazard wrote:
GSL right now...almost every game under 10 minutes.. Take off your rose colored glasses, plenty of Brood War matches last less than 10 minutes in the Proleague and OSL/MSL. The following are just a few vods of the last few weeks of Brood War pro games that I'll assemble quicky, each under 10 minutes of game length... ... The oldest video from this set is from the last week of December, 2010. These are not all of the games lasting less than 10 minutes; just what I could recall offhand and what I found quickly while browsing through the OSL threads.
While I won't attest to the quality of the games listed, it certainly takes a hell of a lot more hand-waving to maneuver your way around an opponent's defense in the current Brood War scene. That's not a knock on Starcraft II as a game, it just means players have had a hell of a lot more time to beat up on Brood War's game mechanics. The level of play is simply more complex
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On January 07 2011 22:13 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 16:45 phosphorylation wrote:
And people who say that live audience is NOT important is missing on a huge point.
Do you know why BW was and is such a phenomenon in korea? Of course, it IS a miraculously good game. But besides that, the audience has developed a close and PERSONAL bond with individual players and teams. They go to live events, interact directly with players, and become hardcore fangirl/fanboys for players and teams. Just watch any recent proleague matches to see what i mean. They have formed a CULTURE of their own -- and this cannot be created by online setting alone. This is one of the major reasons for BW's longetivity and strength. It's not so much the game itself, but the actual PLAYERS behind it. People don't go to the stadium to see some random pro playing a game, they go to the stadium seeing JAE-FRICKIN-DONG and cheering for him no matter how bad he plays or how crazy his strats are. Same holds true for the teams themsevles to some extent.
Do you really watch pro Brood War games aside from the Ro8 onwards/the finals? In plenty of Jaedong's Ro32 videos, nobody is cheering at all and there isn't a single crowd shot to be found. This is the same situation If you're going to go to a soccer match, would you go to the final playoff or the group stage if you were given the opportunity to go to both for just the travel cost?
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I remember watching the first two GSL seasons regularly, but I can't be bothered to watch the current one. Just look at the Code S matches a few days ago (Rain, Tester, HongUn and Kyrix). Even Tastosis had nothing really interesting to say. GSL Spoiler: + Show Spoiler +When Kyrix got cheesed by HongUN, Artosis wasn't even impressed, it was like he was watching SCVs gathering minerals
Blizz should just fix the map pool and if they are so concerned for their casual players, let them play on the smaller or novice versions of these maps. Playing on Steppes of War doesn't feel like playing a game of Starcraft.
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On January 07 2011 22:16 DominicxD wrote:
Well lets look at the situation here. You Have:
If you ask me we just need to give it time. Once Legacy of the Void is released after the second coming of Jesus Christ then the pros will start to switch over (Flash has already confirmed he will in about 5 years, claims that he and Jaedong will run this bitch again, which heavily implies that Jaedong will be making a switch too) and with them comes the general audience. It just needs to grow. But as it stands Brood War is the better option.
Blizzard's legal wrangling has put the product's mainstream popularity in flux. They absolutely shouldn't have thrown blows at KeSPA, even if that meant forfeiting any chance at securing their "intellectual property". Casual viewers aren't going to be interested in "giving [Starcraft II] time". Communities like these? Sure, we can wait. We'll just play the hell out of the game in the meantime. And we can understand the circumstances that lead to the disappointing level of play in the GSL. But "communities like these" aren't what made Korean Brood War so popular. "Sixteen-year-old schoolgirls who thought Boxer was cute" did a lot of the heavy lifting in forming the success of Starcraft in Korea.
On January 07 2011 22:23 Inex wrote:
Blizz should just fix the map pool and if they are so concerned for their casual players, let them play on the smaller or novice versions of these maps. Playing on Steppes of War doesn't feel like playing a game of Starcraft.
The money question is: Did Blizzard code this game so the map pool can be adjusted on a per-league basis? Just because they can do it with the Practice League doesn't necessarily mean they can make a shift between the Diamond and Platinum League. If they didn't, even assuming we could convince the company to make such a change, it's gonna be a long time before it actually happens. Look how long it took them to code chat channels back into Battle.net.
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On January 07 2011 22:11 Hikko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 21:19 Deadlyhazard wrote:
GSL right now...almost every game under 10 minutes.. Take off your rose colored glasses, plenty of Brood War matches last less than 10 minutes in the Proleague and OSL/MSL. The following are just a few vods of the last few weeks of Brood War pro games that I'll assemble quicky, each under 10 minutes of game length... OSL Ro8, Hiya vs Stork (played two days ago) + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IK6rECL3Qc OSL Ro16, Calm vs Hogil + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoALIl62DnQ OSL Ro16, Paralyze vs Kal + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_5uJJPA6Tc OSL Ro16, Hiya vs Calm + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPExLIWIgQw OSL Ro16, Shine vs Stork + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMchZYaPQzE OSL Ro16, Hydra vs Modesty + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7qEiMmlXgM OSL Ro16, Jaedong vs Calm + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy1LUtH6TGo The oldest video from this set is from the last week of December, 2010. These are not all of the games lasting less than 10 minutes; just what I could recall offhand and what I found quickly while browsing through the OSL threads.
Thanks for this. Someone actually pointing out Broodwar isn't the godlike perfection people would have you believe.
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Its because people haven't switched over from BW. Also with BW tournaments running 24/7 365 days in the year I think there is a bit too much starcraft in Korea right now.
Between proleague, OSL, MSL and GSL there is just too much Starcraft going to around and its too saturated and draining the interest of people. When there are champions announced every month its hard for people to root and cheer for someone.
If Starcraft and SC2 were more like soccer broadcasts. With this I mean a team based 9 months long tournament with matches in Saturday and Sunday and than one top individual league (champions league) for the top players and one minor individual league (Europa league) it would be great.
There won't be any saturation of the games, there will be only 1 team based champion in the year, 1 top champion in the year and 1 lesser champion in the year. People will have favorites, idols and there would be much more fans.
That being said GOMTV has its work cut out, because people are still much more inclined to watch games on TV rather than on the PC over the internet and required to install gomTV player.
If it was a HTML5 video player or flash player along the lines of justintv and youtube people would much rather watch, instead of being forced to install the gomtv player.
Whats more the stream quality is of real question for the free broadcast and paid one as well. You are watching a 450kpbs stream for free and 650kbps stream for paid, both are way too low quality.
A high quality stream is something over 1400kbps, a medium quality stream is around 600-1000kbps and everything bellow 600 is considered low.
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On January 07 2011 22:11 Hikko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 21:19 Deadlyhazard wrote:
GSL right now...almost every game under 10 minutes.. Take off your rose colored glasses, plenty of Brood War matches last less than 10 minutes in the Proleague and OSL/MSL. The following are just a few vods of the last few weeks of Brood War pro games that I'll assemble quicky, each under 10 minutes of game length... OSL Ro8, Hiya vs Stork (played two days ago) + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IK6rECL3Qc OSL Ro16, Calm vs Hogil + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoALIl62DnQ OSL Ro16, Paralyze vs Kal + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_5uJJPA6Tc OSL Ro16, Hiya vs Calm + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPExLIWIgQw OSL Ro16, Shine vs Stork + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMchZYaPQzE OSL Ro16, Hydra vs Modesty + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7qEiMmlXgM OSL Ro16, Jaedong vs Calm + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy1LUtH6TGo The oldest video from this set is from the last week of December, 2010. These are not all of the games lasting less than 10 minutes; just what I could recall offhand and what I found quickly while browsing through the OSL threads.
the thing is that the show around the games is like 10000 times better.
edit: jayson x post is really really good. i dont think theres too much starcraft...the broodwar setup that was created works great and you have individual leagues as well as the proleague which runs forever.
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On January 07 2011 22:11 Hikko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 21:19 Deadlyhazard wrote:
GSL right now...almost every game under 10 minutes.. Take off your rose colored glasses, plenty of Brood War matches last less than 10 minutes in the Proleague and OSL/MSL. The following are just a few vods of the last few weeks of Brood War pro games that I'll assemble quicky, each under 10 minutes of game length... OSL Ro8, Hiya vs Stork (played two days ago) + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IK6rECL3Qc OSL Ro16, Calm vs Hogil + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoALIl62DnQ OSL Ro16, Paralyze vs Kal + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_5uJJPA6Tc OSL Ro16, Hiya vs Calm + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPExLIWIgQw OSL Ro16, Shine vs Stork + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMchZYaPQzE OSL Ro16, Hydra vs Modesty + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7qEiMmlXgM OSL Ro16, Jaedong vs Calm + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy1LUtH6TGo The oldest video from this set is from the last week of December, 2010. These are not all of the games lasting less than 10 minutes; just what I could recall offhand and what I found quickly while browsing through the OSL threads.
Thing is, EVERY gsl game pretty much lasts under 10 minutes sometimes even under 6. Most OSL and MSL games last much longer on average and are more exciting.
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The problem is the quality of SC2 games is low. There are too many strategies which are luck based cheeses that are very strong.
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On January 07 2011 22:17 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 22:09 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:just finished watching gsl and really liked it .. i think many of you take that way to seriuos. tastosis are really funny and entertaining to watch games were entertaining also. BW pro games are quite similar most of the times .. e.g. TvZ : 2 hatch or 3 hatch mutas .. marine rush or defense, build turrets just in time .. muta harass .. game finished/decided 90 % of the time then. Currently watching OSL games. I have to vehemently disagree.
I watched BW for some years. Players tend to play the same builds over and over (with some cheese inbetween). Once in a while a new build arises (a slight deviation of an existing one). BW has become a mechanically driven clickfest, that's why >2006 BW is increasingly dominated by 14-18 years old click practice maniacs, executing pre-arranged strategies, which have been developed in most often by elder pros, which are not capable to execute them mechanically. It is not by random, that zergbong moved from beeing a very succesful BW coach to a very good SC2 player. He is cabable to apply his strategic excellence in person. i like that.
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On January 07 2011 22:24 nathangonmad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 22:11 Hikko wrote:On January 07 2011 21:19 Deadlyhazard wrote:
GSL right now...almost every game under 10 minutes.. Take off your rose colored glasses, plenty of Brood War matches last less than 10 minutes in the Proleague and OSL/MSL. The following are just a few vods of the last few weeks of Brood War pro games that I'll assemble quicky, each under 10 minutes of game length... OSL Ro8, Hiya vs Stork (played two days ago) + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IK6rECL3Qc OSL Ro16, Calm vs Hogil + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoALIl62DnQ OSL Ro16, Paralyze vs Kal + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_5uJJPA6Tc OSL Ro16, Hiya vs Calm + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPExLIWIgQw OSL Ro16, Shine vs Stork + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMchZYaPQzE OSL Ro16, Hydra vs Modesty + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7qEiMmlXgM OSL Ro16, Jaedong vs Calm + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy1LUtH6TGo The oldest video from this set is from the last week of December, 2010. These are not all of the games lasting less than 10 minutes; just what I could recall offhand and what I found quickly while browsing through the OSL threads. Thanks for this. Someone actually pointing out Broodwar isn't the godlike perfection people would have you believe.
Thing is i watched both Stork games and they were good. for those two games at least his post does nothing to refute the contention that most of GSL games and SnS ie: Short and Shit.
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On January 07 2011 22:24 nathangonmad wrote:
Thanks for this. Someone actually pointing out Broodwar isn't the godlike perfection people would have you believe.
No it's actually a strong point for Brood War because the game allows both a balanced early- mid- and lategame, thus creating way more room for the players and a good tension build up.
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and here i am watching one of the most amazing sets i've ever seen in OSL.
i watched GSL for july and until OSL started and was dissapoint. annoyed and frustrated as usual. then watched OSL and had my mind blown.
made my night less of a waste.
that is until the fucking moron with the vuvazela that i want to murder with my own bare hands
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On January 07 2011 22:24 nathangonmad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 22:11 Hikko wrote:On January 07 2011 21:19 Deadlyhazard wrote:
GSL right now...almost every game under 10 minutes.. Take off your rose colored glasses, plenty of Brood War matches last less than 10 minutes in the Proleague and OSL/MSL. The following are just a few vods of the last few weeks of Brood War pro games that I'll assemble quicky, each under 10 minutes of game length... OSL Ro8, Hiya vs Stork (played two days ago) + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IK6rECL3Qc OSL Ro16, Calm vs Hogil + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoALIl62DnQ OSL Ro16, Paralyze vs Kal + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_5uJJPA6Tc OSL Ro16, Hiya vs Calm + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPExLIWIgQw OSL Ro16, Shine vs Stork + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMchZYaPQzE OSL Ro16, Hydra vs Modesty + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7qEiMmlXgM OSL Ro16, Jaedong vs Calm + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy1LUtH6TGo The oldest video from this set is from the last week of December, 2010. These are not all of the games lasting less than 10 minutes; just what I could recall offhand and what I found quickly while browsing through the OSL threads. Thanks for this. Someone actually pointing out Broodwar isn't the godlike perfection people would have you believe.
so i wonder why OSL started earlier but is still running and GSL is already over?.
no one said there are no 10min games.
but 3 games out of the games that u posted are ZvZ... mirrors are over fast TT.
and then u also post some rapes.
GSL games are over that fast because its a fucking cheese.
just watch todays OSL games again... doubt u will say that shit again.
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