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I would agree that what is really at the the core of whether or not sc2 will be exciting in the future is the players. It is a good point to bring up. But what is also important Is that those players show us amazing games for them to really stand out to us as pros.
+ Show Spoiler [GSL Day5] +
I feel that a big part of the problem for the popularity of the SC2 pro scene, is that the balance of who's winning and who's losing is on a knifes edge. The GSL game tonight between NaDa and oGsMC was awesome in a few ways: We got to see the game get to 3 bases (omg), we got to see MC transition beautifully from colossus into templar tech and win. ( I was rooting for MC)
Yet, I was still a little disappointed in the game, because it felt like NaDa, who is an awesome player just got beaten without a proper struggle. It didn't feel like an epic battle of wills between these 2 starcraft heroes. oGsMC played beautifully, got an advantage and expanded upon it and rode it to the end. That is really cool, but i just don't feel like there is enough wiggle room in this game for NaDa to try and even it out.
These pro players are fighting on the edge of a knife and any step towards the wrong side and the other player can just push you down so hard, its just not entertaining to watch. I mean obviously that is the best move for a pro to make because there is so much money on the line, but its just not a good show. I feel like its blizzards responsibility to make the games less volatile, so that the players real skill and force of mind can show through.
All the match ups have the potential to reach really exciting levels, but some of them just never do. TvT is perfect for what is it and PvZ, TvZ and PvT can be really exciting, but too often they become fast push over games. PvP and ZvZ I have rarely seen become very exciting. This is of course based on the average GSL games that i have seen.
If blizzard wants to make sc2 a popular esport, they need to figure out a way to balance the game such that the best players in the world do not rush to sucker punch the other player first, or at least make the sucker punches hurt less, no matter how the battle turns out.
User was warned for this post
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On January 07 2011 23:00 frodoguy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 22:55 Faze. wrote:On January 07 2011 08:10 nkr wrote:
Give it some time, you cant expect Sc2 to take down the biggest esports game in 6 months. Pretty much this. It also depends on what's going on in general, maybe there was something else going on in korea and less people were attracted by SC2. Maybe the new system is just too weird and people don't like it, a real BO3 of Boxer VS whoever could probably be more interesting than what the Code S gives them atm. Personally I kinda like the Code S system but maybe koreans dont. They're gonna need some time to adapt as well, and I'm guessing with HotS and LotV, more and more will switch over as SC2 stars to look more and more like BW and better. Right now they just feel like they're losing units they use everyday and get new ones they don't even know what to do with, but instead of learning that and play a better game they'd rather stick to the same old thing. Yes SC:BW is good, probably more balanced than SC2 atm but not by a large amount, but god damn is it ugly. I just went back on SC:BW the other day after a bunch of years not playing it at all, and I gotta tell you from a SC2 poin of view, SC:BW looks like shit. Hell zerglings are almost as big as hydralisk, the morphing building animation takes like 1/4 of the game screen and SCVs look like some kind of HUGE undersea exploration suit or something, they're huge. Anyways, yeah they're used to it and they'll need more than 6 months to switch over I guess but eventually that's gonna happen. Oh and I just realised, I dunno what it's like in korea during xmas but over here people are pretty busy or in vacation or visiting family and whatnot, I'm pretty sure if we had something similar here the outcome would have been quite similar. I reakon acti-blizz is approaching the business in the same manner as apple : give something worthwhile but with a bit of something missing (sc2 in its current state) and leave the missing stuff for later (the expansions that will fix the problem).
They did this in SC1 too, they left out the desert map for the expansion (it was fully done in beta).
Blizzard has always been a bit greedy it seems ^^
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 07 2011 23:05 sqrt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 22:54 Boonbag wrote:
MVP not turning gsl into a rape fest *COULD* be a hint that SC2 is too newbie friendly.
In sc1, people shoke and lose to a worst player skillwise. However, in optimal conditions, an inferior player won't almost ever win.
In sc2, aside a few cases, it seems everyone is about on the same foot and games can just go one way or another, no matter whos playing.
Now I remember back in pre Korea BW era, players such as Grrrr..., Maynard or Fredrik wouldn't lose a single game to a very inferior player.
I think sc2 lacks that unforgiving violence sc1 had. Sc2 is soft, sc1 was harsh. I would atribute this to units and not mechancis. Look at BW, what are your top tier units? Tanks, Arbiters, Defilers, Reavers. What are your top units in SC2? Ultras, Broodlords, Thors and Colossi. In the end you are a-moving, no matter how good you are, your ability to micro can do so much to help a ball that is design to move forward and kill. Even in the mid tier the units in BW require micro, while in SC2 they are a-moving balls. And the short distances aren't helping either. Put the same mechanics SC2 has in BW and the game won't lose much (probably ugly balls, but that's the worst it can get, well be watching pro-gamers splitting units instead of clumping them). The units in SC2 are just not rewarding high level play, it's not about simplified mechanics.
Sounds right. I didn't adress mechanics specifically. Units kind of suck you're right.
edit : I was just watching today's OSL, atmosphere is pumped up. Would be sweet to have tastosis cast this instead of gsl.
edit 2 : maybe sc2 leagues should act like an amateur esports thing as sc2 is easier to play, and sc would just be the pro circuit, like karting and f1.
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Lol whos watching the crazy crowd at the OSL right now? Thats what a proscene is about
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On the topic of adding another map pool for grand masters' league: I want to play on the macro maps. So because I'm not good enough to be in the Masters'/Grand-Masters' league, I have to play on the uber-aggro, mindless maps we have today instead of getting to play on the pro maps? Also, what happens with Cheesy McCheeserton gets his way in the top 200 by 6-pooling and then that doesn't work?
Also, say you get a commentator who isn't really at the top of their game, since I don't know the maps and can't play on them, the commentator doesn't know the maps and can't play on them, who the heck is going to explain to me the nuances of the map? I mean, I can make some generic guesses as to favoritism, but I don't really know which one is better. Half the fun of watching Day9 or someone else is having them build suspense about how the vast expanse at the back of Shakuras Plateau changes your scouting because you know that the Terran could drop there at any time.
Half the fun of the iccup league was that you got to play on the Korean maps.
On January 07 2011 22:30 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 22:24 nathangonmad wrote:On January 07 2011 22:11 Hikko wrote:On January 07 2011 21:19 Deadlyhazard wrote:
GSL right now...almost every game under 10 minutes.. Take off your rose colored glasses, plenty of Brood War matches last less than 10 minutes in the Proleague and OSL/MSL. The following are just a few vods of the last few weeks of Brood War pro games that I'll assemble quicky, each under 10 minutes of game length... OSL Ro8, Hiya vs Stork (played two days ago) + Show Spoiler +OSL Ro16, Calm vs Hogil + Show Spoiler +OSL Ro16, Paralyze vs Kal + Show Spoiler +OSL Ro16, Hiya vs Calm + Show Spoiler +OSL Ro16, Shine vs Stork + Show Spoiler +OSL Ro16, Hydra vs Modesty + Show Spoiler +OSL Ro16, Jaedong vs Calm + Show Spoiler +The oldest video from this set is from the last week of December, 2010. These are not all of the games lasting less than 10 minutes; just what I could recall offhand and what I found quickly while browsing through the OSL threads. Thanks for this. Someone actually pointing out Broodwar isn't the godlike perfection people would have you believe. Thing is i watched both Stork games and they were good. for those two games at least his post does nothing to refute the contention that most of GSL games and SnS ie: Short and Shit.
Well, I spent this morning doing some generic analysis of the groups A, B, and C for the GSL's current season. I think you'll be surprised how many games there are that go longer than 10 minutes:
+ Show Spoiler +
Group A
Games over 10 minutes: 3
Games under 10 minutes: 2
Game 1 37:27 - 51:07
Game 2 0:00 - 8:41
Game 3 21:11 - 43:07
Game 4 7:17 - 15:10
Game 5 4:27 - 22:37
Group B
Games over 10 minutes: 5
Games under 10 minutes: 2
Game 1 14:49 - 19:15
Game 2 0:00 - 16:18
Game 3 3:30 - 10:22
Game 4 0:00 - 11:45
Game 5 0:00 - 12:31
Game 6 0:00 - 10:21
Group C
Games over 10 minutes: 4
Games under 10 minutes: 1
Game 1 12:43 - 27:16
Game 2 0:00 - 23:07
Game 3 5:24 - 22:51
Game 4 0:00 - 17:25
Game 5 5:03 - 13:16
Basically, at least up to those groups, twice as many over-10 minute games as under. I haven't finished watching Group D or onward yet, so maybe this gets refuted later, but I think the point stands.
A lot of GSL 3 was all-in and cheese, and some people take whatever happens last as gospel. It's also difficult to compare BW with SC2 because builds simply take longer to get off the ground in BW, so a 10 minute BW game is probably equal to an 8 or 9 minute SC2 game.
I'm not saying BW is better or worse - it's inarguable that the level of competition and skill in BW is higher than SC2. There's also a lot of nonsense and misinformation, too. SC2 is growing fast in terms of player skill, but there's still a long way to go. People who think that strategies and games are anywhere near as good as they will be are fooling themselves.
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On January 07 2011 19:22 Highways wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I personally think if OGN and MBC had the rights SC2 would be so much better. I do agree though that watching SC2 is losing its appeal due to: - The game is too fast, one mistake and there are 50 lings in your base or 20 stalkers warping in. I think they need to slow down the macro mechanics somehow, especially warpgate and larvae inject. - Average game length is 5 minutes, cheese is so strong in this game that we are now at the point where the players aren't to blame. The other contributing factor is the absolute shithouse maps. Not only are they tiny but on larger maps close positions means a 5 minute game is coming up. - Lack of chat channels, everyday that passes is killing the community. I would imagine that alot of people don't play this game anymore because Bnet feels so empty. - Crap custom games search interface, when you are not in the mood for a competitive game you want to relax with custom games. But in it's current state it's so hard to find good new games because the system is so bad. It's always the same games on the list and remakes of BW and WC3 maps. Where are all the original games that this editor was going to show? Well you won't see it with this stupid popularity system. My suggestions to slow the game down: 1)BIGGER MAPS 2) Protoss - can only warp in units around your nexus, this stops all the BS warpgate cheeses and proxy allins. It also makes warp prisms more useful. 2) Zerg - for larvae injection: hatch = 2 larva lair = 3 larva hive = 4 larva 3) Terran - cooldown on mules. + Show Spoiler +Also Marauders are so OP in TvP
I totally agree with every point that you said. It's a pity that most of the problems SC2 are having could have been fixed rather simply as you pointed out.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On January 07 2011 22:54 Kafkaesk wrote:
Uh, weren't there over 1,000,000 viewers on the GOMTV stream, as Boxer was playing in GSL2?
Actually no, I think you are talking about Boxer vs Nada, which attraced 1 million vieuwers in a matter of days when it comes to Vods, however these were most likely purely based upon the appeal that both these players have. Nada and Boxer are BW legends, they are players everyone loves, that is the reason alot of people watched those games.
I just finished OSL, which reminded me of something. In every single game at the start they show the starting screen with 5-4-3-2-1.
And everytime it is 1 2 3 X PLAYER FIGHTING, it gets you pumped about the player, this does not happen in SC2 where you just see a loading screen basically. this attributes to the scene as a whole, because you encourage the player to win like this.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On January 07 2011 22:54 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 22:43 don_kyuhote wrote:
Just watched OSL modesty vs Kal game 3. Not a macro game, but damn, I don't see stuff like that in SC2 yet....of course the fact that we have bunch of no-names playing in GSL doesn't help... Problem is that bunch of no names were hardcore pros or b pros of bw, meaning they kind of have a sick practice level. MVP not turning gsl into a rape fest *COULD* be a hint that SC2 is too newbie friendly. In sc1, people shoke and lose to a worst player skillwise. However, in optimal conditions, an inferior player won't almost ever win. In sc2, aside a few cases, it seems everyone is about on the same foot and games can just go one way or another, no matter whos playing. Now I remember back in pre Korea BW era, players such as Grrrr..., Maynard or Fredrik wouldn't lose a single game to a very inferior player. I think sc2 lacks that unforgiving violence sc1 had. Sc2 is soft, sc1 was harsh.
Actually I think it's the other way around. SC2 is too harsh. A pro in BW can make a mistake but because he is such a better player can overcome that mistake and still win. In SC2 if that pro makes a mistake he loses to the other guy. There's almost no fighting back through superior micro/multitasking/macro.
BW is harsher on mechanics and speed but in reality I think it's more forgiving of mistakes because there are ways of coming back from disadvantages through superior micro/multitasking etc. You don't have to rely on your opponent making a mistake to allow you to come back.
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On January 07 2011 08:10 nkr wrote:
Give it some time, you cant expect Sc2 to take down the biggest esports game in 6 months.
The dumb format isn't helping, hard to get excited about players moving between codes and an indecipherable bracket system
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BW is on TV, SC2 currently is not. That basically accounts for the difference right there.
Perhaps once KeSPA and Blizzard resolve their differences and SC2 gets on TV the GSL will be more popular.
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I feel like if every matchup worked like TvT, SC2 would just be so much better. Like, an early advantage isnt that much in TvT, much like in scbw.
Obviously, TvT is not that good, but that's because it is a mirror match.
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On January 07 2011 23:25 bonifaceviii wrote:
BW is on TV, SC2 currently is not. That basically accounts for the difference right there.
Perhaps once KeSPA and Blizzard resolve their differences and SC2 gets on TV the GSL will be more popular.
u really think that will happen ?
In ufc there is a clausule in case of divergence the 2 brothers (owners) can resolve issues fighting jiu jitsu, winner is right ...
perhaps kespa director + blizzard sc2 person should just do a bo7 in bw + sc2 ....
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Too many factors as to why the GSL audiance is suffering.
1. Stream is definitly solid in my opinion you must have a reallllllllly crappy connection to not be able to stream on LQ.
2. BW season is going on and not only could it be the last couple tournaments, but the matches are so awesome compared to a lot of the GSL games that are terrible (there are many good ones, but so many terrible ones).
3. Location of the event can factor in as well as the time it takes place.
Now the external issues are solved lets look at the game.
Maps - Too small too clear cut. Rush distance is close, so if you have the larger army it won't lose nearly as much value as a BW army would. Pushing lanes are so few in number there isn't a reason to ever branch off your army you can just guard the one path to your base and be safe.
Games - 10minutes plus of seeing whos ball of units can beat the other ball of units. Minimal harass. (also a bit due to map size).
No amazing harass - marine drops are not as cool - muta harrass isn't the same - no reavers - DT's actually shouldn't work - no mines - no erasing just not cool to watch.
New schedule is...laughable lol. The only reason to do the group phase the way they do is if they think some of the players they have in code S are terrible and want them out.
But SC1 probably wouldn't have had excellent matches either. It was only after BW was released that matches were any good. Hopefully with some new units and hopefully after killing/modifying certain units this game will provide better matches.
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As has been said before , SC2 units are just not as interesting as BW units.
People are turning off , blizzard took the 'safe' route with SC2 , looks like that was a bad move.
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I agree on this: SC2 is boring to watch right now. Its not fully balanced and "all-ins" or whatever you call them are too powerful.
Casters can make everything enjoyable though, which Tastosis stand proof to. But when it comes to just watching replays, watching from my game of youth (Wc3) is faaaaar more entertaining than watching SC2 replays overall. I guess one just have to grow used to it, everything needs time when things are changing.
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Not really surprised that people are likely still more into BW than SC2 seeing as it's been a mainstay for over a decade now. So far as SC2 is concerned, perhaps the other problem is the lack of quality games in Seasons 1, 2, and to some extent, 3 and the Korean audience is fearing the same in Code S.
Even having the prem. package at GOM, I stopped watching a lot of games last season because I got tired of all in rushes by Terran players (only really looked forward to Jinro's games and I'm a Terran player), PvP is worse than watching paint dry while stuck in a corner (4 gate or cannons...edge of your seat excitement), and ZvZ was usually guaranteed to be a Ling/BLing fest every single time (and while I can appreciate the unit control, it's still horribly boring). Predictable and boring doesn't make for exciting audience viewing.
The numbers may seem alarming right now, but perhaps the game also needs time to mature and it may take some time to catch on. Guess only time will tell.
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My oppinion on this discussion:
Expectations
They were way to high. I remember before and during the beta, people were literally going crazy because of their hope of SC2 making eSport EXPLODE! all over the world.
Well, it kinda did in the western world. There are so many tournaments all over the place, most of them with such high price money, DreamHack, IEM, MLG, EPS there are so many that it might even be a bit too much, and people are getting bored of all these top players competing nearly every week against each other.
In Korea otherwise, SC2 is not even close to BW, which is not surprising. I repeat. IT IS NOT SURPRISING!
Broodwar is like a national sport for Koreans. It just won't happen that easily, that a new game will come and grab this title. It's like you're bringing out Soccer2 or Football2 with even more balls and more exciting stuff, it just won't work.
Maybe in the next 2-3 years, when people are more familiar with this new game, and the 2 expansion packs have been released, then it can rise up to be an big sport in Korea too.
But till then, be happy with what we got here in Europe and the USA.
Addons
I'm sure that the game will change dramaticly when the first (and second) expansion pack will come out.
It was the case with ALL blizzard games this far. Blizzard games have in common that they are "very nice" when they are released in their vanilla version. But everytime there are some design and/or balance flaws in the original game, that can't be patched because they lie deep in the core mechanics of the game.
Those flaws in design and mechanics even can't be seen in a beta, it just takes some time to find out what works with that game, and what doesn't.
Blizzard has a great talent in finding those flaws in design/balance and change them in future Addons. It was the same for Diablo, Starcraft, most of all Warcraft3, which seems to be a total diffrent game with frozen throne, compared to the original game.
To sum it up. Wait for the Expansion packs to arrive, it will change ALOT.
Be glad we got such a huge competetive SC2 scene here in the western world, there are more tournaments and events that I could ever watch in my free time,
Don't judge the succes of the game game, by its popularity in South Korea. If you thought SC2 would simply stomp Broodwar into the ground over there, it just won't happen.
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The game is only 6 months old, the mechanics are slightly different to BW, and as such even the Pro's make mistakes still at this level, but as we've had it thrust into the limelight from day one, instead of these mistakes being made in the practice houses they're being broadcast to everyone. (Ret's droning yesterday for example.?)
Map changes will help,
LAN would help the scene grow ..as much as Blizzard won't allow it.
Maybe less matches.. (over-saturation.. how about the code S is the league.. and the code A players qualify for a knock-out later.. like the FA Cup system in the UK. or hell just still Kespa's way and have the teams pick their own players)
Clearer brackets.. just a simple round robin would suffice guys.. or hell just one big league where everyone plays 2-3 games a week
Bo1? WTF! So code A the lesser players get a Bo3? but Code S gets Bo1's? wtf that makes no sense. Bo3 should be the least amount of games ever played in comps. Bo1's is like playing a ladder game, no mind games, no fakes, nothing.
More effort into getting on Tv also? pretty self explanatory.
How I wish this game had LAN, I'd be hosting local tournaments every opportunity. I love this game, I love watching it, I love playing it, despite my terrible actual skill level.
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SC2 cannot survive very long without good Korean support. I think if Gom doesn't fix their strategies, like Milkis said, then SC2 will only last a short period of time in the foreign scene. RTS games don't seem to do very hot if they are not supported well by Korea.
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EPT
