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Am i the only one who thinks that times have changed too much for SC2 to really take off? SC1 was a very special thing that happened. There were many factors that contributed to it's incredible and long lasting success.
But since then the gaming market has changed. Games and gamers are way more casual now and AAA games these days come out a lot more frequent. People tend to go through a game in a month or less before they lose interest and move on to the next thing. Outside of the MMO market there are very few exceptions to this rule. And even though SC2 is one of these exceptions it's not gonna last as long as SC1.
In my circle of friends there were quite a few avid SC2 players and even GSL watchers, but everyone including me have lost interest in the game after a few months. It just gets very repetative at some point and theres too much high quality competition.
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On January 07 2011 22:36 rasers wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 22:24 nathangonmad wrote:On January 07 2011 22:11 Hikko wrote:On January 07 2011 21:19 Deadlyhazard wrote:
GSL right now...almost every game under 10 minutes.. Take off your rose colored glasses, plenty of Brood War matches last less than 10 minutes in the Proleague and OSL/MSL. The following are just a few vods of the last few weeks of Brood War pro games that I'll assemble quicky, each under 10 minutes of game length... OSL Ro8, Hiya vs Stork (played two days ago) + Show Spoiler +OSL Ro16, Calm vs Hogil + Show Spoiler +OSL Ro16, Paralyze vs Kal + Show Spoiler +OSL Ro16, Hiya vs Calm + Show Spoiler +OSL Ro16, Shine vs Stork + Show Spoiler +OSL Ro16, Hydra vs Modesty + Show Spoiler +OSL Ro16, Jaedong vs Calm + Show Spoiler +The oldest video from this set is from the last week of December, 2010. These are not all of the games lasting less than 10 minutes; just what I could recall offhand and what I found quickly while browsing through the OSL threads. Thanks for this. Someone actually pointing out Broodwar isn't the godlike perfection people would have you believe. so i wonder why OSL started earlier but is still running and GSL is already over?.
Perhaps you forgot the part where you spend about two thirds of your time "watching OSL streams" by watching terrible lip-synced KPop waiting for the next game 
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On January 07 2011 22:28 Deadlyhazard wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 22:11 Hikko wrote:On January 07 2011 21:19 Deadlyhazard wrote:
GSL right now...almost every game under 10 minutes.. Take off your rose colored glasses, plenty of Brood War matches last less than 10 minutes in the Proleague and OSL/MSL. The following are just a few vods of the last few weeks of Brood War pro games that I'll assemble quicky, each under 10 minutes of game length... OSL Ro8, Hiya vs Stork (played two days ago) + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IK6rECL3Qc OSL Ro16, Calm vs Hogil + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoALIl62DnQ OSL Ro16, Paralyze vs Kal + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_5uJJPA6Tc OSL Ro16, Hiya vs Calm + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPExLIWIgQw OSL Ro16, Shine vs Stork + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMchZYaPQzE OSL Ro16, Hydra vs Modesty + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7qEiMmlXgM OSL Ro16, Jaedong vs Calm + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy1LUtH6TGo The oldest video from this set is from the last week of December, 2010. These are not all of the games lasting less than 10 minutes; just what I could recall offhand and what I found quickly while browsing through the OSL threads. Thing is, EVERY gsl game pretty much lasts under 10 minutes sometimes even under 6. Most OSL and MSL games last much longer on average and are more exciting.
So what. I don't care if the games are short. Just would like to see more BO3,5,7 to make up for that. Large scale games are often boring to watch, most spectators are not willing to watch a 10 minute build up followed by a large scaled army clash. The strategic dificilities of a macro game are beyond the level of most spectators. Ever asked yourself why people enjoy watching TLO, RootCatz, actionjesus more than LiquidRet, EGIdra, EGMachine ?
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BW is still far superior than sc2. Unless Blizz can fix and make sc2 a better game than BW, why would anyone watch an inferior game?
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Just watched OSL modesty vs Kal game 3. Not a macro game, but damn, I don't see stuff like that in SC2 yet....of course the fact that we have bunch of no-names playing in GSL doesn't help...
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On January 07 2011 22:36 Phos wrote:
Am i the only one who thinks that times have changed too much for SC2 to really take off? SC1 was a very special thing that happened. There were many factors that contributed to it's incredible and long lasting success.
It was/is a good game. Look at Broodwar, the graphics aren't bad, the games are still fun and it's entertaining to watch. The only other games that is fun after a decade are Quake 3 and CS. It's hard to make a game of that quality. Everything else is based on local issues, not universal trends in the gaming industry.
But since then the gaming market has changed. Games and gamers are way more casual now and AAA games these days come out a lot more frequent.
Casual gamers are the heart of e-sports, not the hardcore. Hardcore gamers were and always will be, small part of the demographic.
On January 07 2011 22:36 Phos wrote:People tend to go through a game in a month or less before they lose interest and move on to the next thing.
And 1998 was different?
Hint: No, it wasn't.
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On January 07 2011 22:42 Shana wrote:
BW is still far superior than sc2. Unless Blizz can fix and make sc2 a better game than BW, why would anyone watch an inferior game?
Same reason people watch college sports over the professional game: I have absolutely no idea.
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On January 07 2011 22:42 Shana wrote:
BW is still far superior than sc2. Unless Blizz can fix and make sc2 a better game than BW, why would anyone watch an inferior game?
SC2 games on youtube have way more views than BW games..
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On January 07 2011 22:44 MichaelJLowell wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 22:42 Shana wrote:
BW is still far superior than sc2. Unless Blizz can fix and make sc2 a better game than BW, why would anyone watch an inferior game? Same reason people watch college sports over the professional game: I have absolutely no idea.
I guess you are refering to football or basketball? College football and basketballs have rivalries and histories that SC2 doesn't have...yet... Plus, year in and year out, there are influx of incoming freshman who identify themselves with their school which increases the fanbase of the school team...not the case in SC2.
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On January 07 2011 22:47 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 22:42 Shana wrote:
BW is still far superior than sc2. Unless Blizz can fix and make sc2 a better game than BW, why would anyone watch an inferior game? SC2 games on youtube have way more views than BW games..
We're talking about Korean audience mainly. Youtube not exactly relevant.
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On January 07 2011 22:49 don_kyuhote wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 22:44 MichaelJLowell wrote:On January 07 2011 22:42 Shana wrote:
BW is still far superior than sc2. Unless Blizz can fix and make sc2 a better game than BW, why would anyone watch an inferior game? Same reason people watch college sports over the professional game: I have absolutely no idea. I guess you are refering to football or basketball? College football and basketballs have rivalries and histories that SC2 doesn't have. Plus, year in and year out, there are influx of incoming freshman who identify themselves with their school..not the case in SC2.
Yeah, I probably should have just said it without going for the easy joke. <3
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I haven't watched any SCBW progames of late only mass SC 2 games, but my god, I am currently watching Stork vs Hiya in the RO8 of OSL. I've never seen a SC 2 game as exciting by far ever!
StarCraft 2 can't deliver the same intensity probably due to the perfect pathing and weird unit movement, makes it feel less human and more machine'ish.
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On January 07 2011 22:49 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 22:47 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On January 07 2011 22:42 Shana wrote:
BW is still far superior than sc2. Unless Blizz can fix and make sc2 a better game than BW, why would anyone watch an inferior game? SC2 games on youtube have way more views than BW games.. We're talking about Korean audience mainly. Youtube not exactly relevant.
Youtube is very relevant. You see sc2 on front page of reddit and youtube all the time. Its already bigger than BW global. Just attract them international sponsors and we're gold. Cant tell much from the live audience at GSL. Need to know how many are actually watching it on a global scale.
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On January 07 2011 22:47 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 22:42 Shana wrote:
BW is still far superior than sc2. Unless Blizz can fix and make sc2 a better game than BW, why would anyone watch an inferior game? SC2 games on youtube have way more views than BW games..
Husky and HD each both have more views/subscribers than day9, so am i to believe that they are better than him? Obviously not.
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Uh, weren't there over 1,000,000 viewers on the GOMTV stream, as Boxer was playing in GSL2?
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On January 07 2011 22:52 Armsved wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 22:49 Boonbag wrote:On January 07 2011 22:47 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On January 07 2011 22:42 Shana wrote:
BW is still far superior than sc2. Unless Blizz can fix and make sc2 a better game than BW, why would anyone watch an inferior game? SC2 games on youtube have way more views than BW games.. We're talking about Korean audience mainly. Youtube not exactly relevant. Youtube is very relevant. You see sc2 on front page of reddit and youtube all the time. Its already bigger than BW global. Just attract them international sponsors and we're gold. Cant tell much from the live audience at GSL. Need to know how many are actually watching it on a global scale.
I would also like to know of those who are watching, how many are satisfied with quality of the gameplay.
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On January 07 2011 22:43 don_kyuhote wrote:
Just watched OSL modesty vs Kal game 3. Not a macro game, but damn, I don't see stuff like that in SC2 yet....of course the fact that we have bunch of no-names playing in GSL doesn't help...
Problem is that bunch of no names were hardcore pros or b pros of bw, meaning they kind of have a sick practice level.
MVP not turning gsl into a rape fest *COULD* be a hint that SC2 is too newbie friendly.
In sc1, people shoke and lose to a worst player skillwise. However, in optimal conditions, an inferior player won't almost ever win.
In sc2, aside a few cases, it seems everyone is about on the same foot and games can just go one way or another, no matter whos playing.
Now I remember back in pre Korea BW era, players such as Grrrr..., Maynard or Fredrik wouldn't lose a single game to a very inferior player.
I think sc2 lacks that unforgiving violence sc1 had. Sc2 is soft, sc1 was harsh.
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On January 07 2011 08:10 nkr wrote:
Give it some time, you cant expect Sc2 to take down the biggest esports game in 6 months.
Pretty much this.
It also depends on what's going on in general, maybe there was something else going on in korea and less people were attracted by SC2. Maybe the new system is just too weird and people don't like it, a real BO3 of Boxer VS whoever could probably be more interesting than what the Code S gives them atm. Personally I kinda like the Code S system but maybe koreans dont.
They're gonna need some time to adapt as well, and I'm guessing with HotS and LotV, more and more will switch over as SC2 stars to look more and more like BW and better. Right now they just feel like they're losing units they use everyday and get new ones they don't even know what to do with, but instead of learning that and play a better game they'd rather stick to the same old thing. Yes SC:BW is good, probably more balanced than SC2 atm but not by a large amount, but god damn is it ugly. I just went back on SC:BW the other day after a bunch of years not playing it at all, and I gotta tell you from a SC2 poin of view, SC:BW looks like shit. Hell zerglings are almost as big as hydralisk, the morphing building animation takes like 1/4 of the game screen and SCVs look like some kind of HUGE undersea exploration suit or something, they're huge. Anyways, yeah they're used to it and they'll need more than 6 months to switch over I guess but eventually that's gonna happen.
Oh and I just realised, I dunno what it's like in korea during xmas but over here people are pretty busy or in vacation or visiting family and whatnot, I'm pretty sure if we had something similar here the outcome would have been quite similar.
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On January 07 2011 22:55 Faze. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 08:10 nkr wrote:
Give it some time, you cant expect Sc2 to take down the biggest esports game in 6 months. Pretty much this. It also depends on what's going on in general, maybe there was something else going on in korea and less people were attracted by SC2. Maybe the new system is just too weird and people don't like it, a real BO3 of Boxer VS whoever could probably be more interesting than what the Code S gives them atm. Personally I kinda like the Code S system but maybe koreans dont. They're gonna need some time to adapt as well, and I'm guessing with HotS and LotV, more and more will switch over as SC2 stars to look more and more like BW and better. Right now they just feel like they're losing units they use everyday and get new ones they don't even know what to do with, but instead of learning that and play a better game they'd rather stick to the same old thing. Yes SC:BW is good, probably more balanced than SC2 atm but not by a large amount, but god damn is it ugly. I just went back on SC:BW the other day after a bunch of years not playing it at all, and I gotta tell you from a SC2 poin of view, SC:BW looks like shit. Hell zerglings are almost as big as hydralisk, the morphing building animation takes like 1/4 of the game screen and SCVs look like some kind of HUGE undersea exploration suit or something, they're huge. Anyways, yeah they're used to it and they'll need more than 6 months to switch over I guess but eventually that's gonna happen. Oh and I just realised, I dunno what it's like in korea during xmas but over here people are pretty busy or in vacation or visiting family and whatnot, I'm pretty sure if we had something similar here the outcome would have been quite similar.
I reakon acti-blizz is approaching the business in the same manner as apple : give something worthwhile but with a bit of something missing (sc2 in its current state) and leave the missing stuff for later (the expansions that will fix the problem).
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On January 07 2011 22:54 Boonbag wrote:
MVP not turning gsl into a rape fest *COULD* be a hint that SC2 is too newbie friendly.
In sc1, people shoke and lose to a worst player skillwise. However, in optimal conditions, an inferior player won't almost ever win.
In sc2, aside a few cases, it seems everyone is about on the same foot and games can just go one way or another, no matter whos playing.
Now I remember back in pre Korea BW era, players such as Grrrr..., Maynard or Fredrik wouldn't lose a single game to a very inferior player.
I think sc2 lacks that unforgiving violence sc1 had. Sc2 is soft, sc1 was harsh.
I would atribute this to units and not mechancis.
Look at BW, what are your top tier units? Tanks, Arbiters, Defilers, Reavers.
What are your top units in SC2? Ultras, Broodlords, Thors and Colossi.
In the end you are a-moving, no matter how good you are, your ability to micro can do so much to help a ball that is design to move forward and kill.
Even in the mid tier the units in BW require micro, while in SC2 they are a-moving balls. And the short distances aren't helping either.
Put the same mechanics SC2 has in BW and the game won't lose much (probably ugly balls, but that's the worst it can get, well be watching pro-gamers splitting units instead of clumping them). The units in SC2 are just not rewarding high level play, it's not about simplified mechanics.
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EPT
