Ban/Eliminate "Cheese" - Page 5

On July 23 2010 17:30 virgozero wrote:

the problem?
1.) its useless, why have a useless word?
2.) it promotes people calling other people strategies inadequate by using the term cheese.

On July 23 2010 17:34 TheOracle wrote:
Honestly Virgozero, I'm this close to giving up on this, not because you are making a logical argument that I'll be bowing to, but because you keep ignoring what I'm saying.

Here's what's getting me. Firstly you are saying that my example of Cheese by intotherainbow is not cheese because it isn't 'early' enough, yet you yourself began the argument by saying that we could draw a line about what consisted early/not early. Yet what are you doing? Drawing a line. Funny how that works, isn't it.

I see the problem here though. You are dealing in absolutes, and obviously don't like the concept of non-absolutes. You said that 'fastey' had no meaning. Yet there is. I'll use a text graphic to demonstrate. Lets take fast to be faster than normal. Using absolutes we get;
Normal-Fast
Yet in the real world this doesn't exist, as absolutes are hard to find. Here is how 'Normal' and 'Fast' exist in the real world.
Normal ------------------------------------------- Fast
See in reality there's a whole slew of variations to 'fast', some of which lie between normal and fast. 'Fastey' is similar to 'Fastish' which I have actually used, when something wasn't 'Fast', nor was it 'Normal' speed. It may be something like thus;
Normal ------------------ Fastey ------------- Fast

A similar situation occurs when using rough numbers. Numbers are absolute, but sometimes we need non-absolutes. We use words like 'Some', 'Lots', 'A few' etc. We may be told to make 'Some' Zealots, 'A couple' of Zealots, and many more variations. These are not absolutes, but have a relation to each other. As shown;
None-----A Couple------Some-------Lots

And thus we arrive back at Cheesy. Using the same format;
Normal Strategy-----------Cheesy Strategy-------------A Cheese Strategy

But when you have put 0 into gas, and have built 5-6 pylons in the other players main, then have warped units directly there, it is an all in, at least at that level of play. Unless you do significant damage (in which case the cheesy play has succeeded, and therefore we ignore this option), you are down at least 500 minerals for the pylons, as well as being supply blocked, as well as whatever minerals lost for the units. Therefore it is Cheesy play. It doesn't lose him the game outright if it fails (He still has 4 warpgates and quite a few probes at his main), but it certainly isn't a standard normal attack as it has significantly MORE risk than just losing a battle (Which you compared it to later in your post)

On July 23 2010 17:38 DiTH wrote:
I agree that the term is used too much but it certainly is not useless,if you want to use a term that includes all of cannon rushes or proxy gating or 7pooling or anything you need to have a word and Cheese is that.

The big problem with the word Cheese is since there is a big difference in skill level and in the strategic view of the game among the players there cant be a concensus to which strategy is Cheese or isnt.

So ultimately IMO the word Cheese has as much power as the Person's knowledge of the game,skill level and strategic mind using it.

On July 23 2010 17:37 azotic wrote:
I'd like to offer a couple thoughts here:

What defines a "cheese" strategy isn't any objective description but instead the feeling of frustration on the receiving end that it's qualitatively unfair. "If he'd played fairly I would have beaten him."

All the other definitions are chasing what makes experienced players feel that a strategy is unfair.

As for arguing that "we don't need the term," well, as long as people use it, we're stuck with it.

On July 23 2010 17:49 ReachTheSky wrote:
I agree that the term can give certain things a negative 'ring' to whatever is being mentioned. I personally would like to see commentators use this in better context and less to paint a negative picture of a player. A commentator says that X's 4 warp gate build is cheesy. Y does the same thing in the same tournament but the same commentator does not label it as cheese. The commentator just gave a negative connotation to viewers about one player but not the other. Is the commentator bias about the players? If so, thats totally fine. We all have our own favorites. What i don't like when the commentator is letting it leak into the casting which can directly affect a player's image due to the amount of influence caster's have in the community. Promote a player all you want, just don't give another a bad ring.

On July 23 2010 17:53 virgozero wrote:


Attero once said on the stream (vTgaming) " 4 warp gate is not all in, all in is when u put "ALL" that you have "IN" the last atk. Meaning you bring your probes everything. All-in is it works, you win, it doesn't, you GG.

On July 23 2010 17:37 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:


1. why is it useless? if it was useless why is it used often since 10+ years? maybe you dont know mr "i registered may 2010 and now tell evryone which words to use about the game!" but its not some weird new term.

2. so if those guys would call a strat "easy noobluckshit strat!" or whatever instead of "cheese" it would be better?

and i still dont see a "problem". i just see a guy who doesnt like one thing and makes a huge buzz out of it.

1.) if a strategy is all in aka I either win or GG, then call the strategy an "all-in strategy"
There is NO NEED to call it cheese
2.) if a strategy is early agression taking advantage of the lack of serious resistance, then just call the strategy an "early agression strategy"
There is NO NEED to call it cheese

What results from this is people go " Oh ! he says its kinda cheesey which must mean its kinda noobish, I guess HuK isn't that great of a player after all" and believe me when you read the comments, you can DEFINITELY see people getting that kind of negative(i'd say) understanding.

last but not least, not to be picky but I really dislike how Day[9] called HuK's 4 warp gate kinda "cheesey". WTF DOES THAT MEAN?
Why do you need to say that even? There is literally 0 accurate meaning that comes with that sentence.
Your strategy is "cheesey". Wtf?
Its either "an all-in strategy that relies on surprise to win a game early without serious resistance" or its not. How can a strategy be "kinda cheesey".

On July 23 2010 17:59 Shatter wrote:
the strategy will create a situation that will not be a traditional demonstration of "starcraft skill" between the players and where the cheeser introduces a more random element to the outcome of the game.

On July 23 2010 18:05 virgozero wrote:

I am not sure what ladder you are in but I am in diamond and NOBODY cheeses.

On July 23 2010 16:37 FC.Strike wrote:
Zatic made a thread about Cheese and All-Ins that I believe many of us have come to accept:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=123613

Cheese: A strategy that relies overwhelmingly or entirely on secrecy. If scouted, the strategy fails and puts the executing player at a severe disadvantage, or right out costs him the game.

All-In: An aggressive strategy aimed at killing the opponent off completely in one attack. All available resources are put into this one attack and no follow-up is being considered. Should the attack fail and the opponent live through it, the game is almost certainly lost to a counter or to superior enemy tech/economy.

The Liquipedia should probably be updated to reflect this more modern view.

P.S. The people who care enough about linguistics enough to argue about it are different from the total noobs who use the word in a way not to your liking. I'm not usually irritated by threads, but this and the latest metagame post come across as highly snobby and elitist. I would put in my own 2 cents about my take on this issue, but I don't have the mental energy to argue for or against such a completely meaningless concept.

Good luck with your movement to educate the masses or form a cult of followers who will never use the word cheese or whatever. I for one will be drinking a very tall glass of wine.

On July 23 2010 16:18 virgozero wrote:
From a recent tournament that shall remain nameless so I don't have to use spoiler tags