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On July 23 2010 18:05 virgozero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 17:59 Shatter wrote:
the strategy will create a situation that will not be a traditional demonstration of "starcraft skill" between the players and where the cheeser introduces a more random element to the outcome of the game. proxy gate does not demonstrate skill? sitting at your own base macroing up demonstrate skill? can i lol? I am not sure what ladder you are in but I am in diamond and NOBODY cheeses. Why? Because its so easy to defend.(and that every1 scouts their base) The fact that someone can have the balls (whitera) to pull off these strategies at the highest level of tournament is really amazing. I dare you to play poker for $3000, don't even look at your cards and just go all in. You wouldn't do it. Yah on the surface it looks like some easy sh1t, but I bet if you were in the players position you'd be sweating your a$$ off making that decision.
I said "traditional starcraft skill." If you watched a game where someone proxy gates and win, could you honestly say how good at starcraft as a whole they are? Even Jaedong and Flash cheese sometimes, not because they are playing against better players but as a strategic move. But it would be weird to say "Jaedong played so well" if you just watched him 5 pool a 14 cc. Good players use cheese too but you act like people only use the word cheese for bad players.
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perhaps the etymology of the word cheese sheds light to its definition as well.
CHEESE! find it! must find cheese! if u find cheese you win!
this connection illustrates the idea that the other person scouts you, or "finds the cheese" he is pretty likely to win and you lose.
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completely agree. cheese is such a stupid name, and is used way way to much. what ever happened to just rushing someone?
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"So like, the word 'fuck' actually means to have sex. But lots of people don't really use the word 'fuck' in the right context. You know like people will say 'fuck' in bad ways which de-values the word, I mean lots of people would say 'TLO got fucked by Tester' but that's not how you use it! Clearly since the meaning of the word got warped and turned into something else we should ban/eliminate it."
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On July 23 2010 17:47 virgozero wrote:Show nested quote +
I see the problem here though. You are dealing in absolutes, and obviously don't like the concept of non-absolutes. You said that 'fastey' had no meaning. Yet there is. I'll use a text graphic to demonstrate. Lets take fast to be faster than normal. Using absolutes we get;
Normal-Fast
Yet in the real world this doesn't exist, as absolutes are hard to find. Here is how 'Normal' and 'Fast' exist in the real world.
Normal ------------------------------------------- Fast
See in reality there's a whole slew of variations to 'fast', some of which lie between normal and fast. 'Fastey' is similar to 'Fastish' which I have actually used, when something wasn't 'Fast', nor was it 'Normal' speed. It may be something like thus;
Normal ------------------ Fastey ------------- Fast
Sigh do I really have to do this >.> Normal : normal Fast : fast Between normal and fast : BETWEEN NORMAL AND FAST *gasp* fastey suggests that something is "partially" fast. When its not. If you say something is "partially fast" then you are assuming that
Right, now it's my turn. Do I really need to do this?
Fastey inhibits the gap between Normal and Fast. Your still trying to deal in absolutes. YES fastey suggests that something is partially fast. That's the point. We are giving a word to that space BETWEEN NORMAL AND FAST as you put it. Say Im telling a story, and its about a guy running. He was running at a speed in the space BETWEEN NORMAL AND FAST. Do I say that? No, because its cumbersome speech. So I say he was moving 'Fastey' or more appropriately 'Fastish'. This is why we need non-absolutes, to identify this gap.
My mistake to put a solid Fastey on the graphic when you are still being so technical.
Normal ------------ ( F-a-s-t-e-y) --- Fast.
There. Its a rage of values, between Normal and Fast, towards the fast end.
when something is partially fast it means it CONTAINS "fast". But if that speed is not yet fast how can it contain fast?
Now I really am confused. You can't understand how something that is not fast can contain fast?
A soup is partially water. It contains water. Yet it is not water.
Megabyte contains byte, but it is not a byte.
This sort of language is a basis for out language in the modern world, if you can't fathom how it works, I'm not sure what to say.
Cheese does not work like that. Cheese is cheese firmly defined by liquidpedia.
It's firmly defined, but not in absolutes, (again the problem) and therein lies your problem.
lol okay so if I put my pylon within his base = cheesey
if i put the pylon on the door of his base = its not?
Nope, not what I said. Never said that a door pylon isn't cheesy. Infact I never said ANYTHING about door pylons. Go back and read it and come back with a response that's based on what I said. I said it's all in because he is committing 500+Minerals worth of pylons, plus the lack of gas, plus the lack of pylons in his main (and so supply), plus the units he is warping in. Nothing about Door pylons there.
"where do we draw the line, which shows the weakness of the definition and the weakness of the term all together"
This doesn't change my point at all. My point is still that you are trying to deal in absolutes, which is why it doesn't work. Here you are saying that the definition should contain absolutes, or else it's a bad definition. It doesn't need to. Since almost nothing is absolutes in nature, then trying to define things with absolutes fails. Soup is quite adequately defined by my computer as
"A liquid dish, typically made by boiling meat, fish or vegetables in stock or water."
Sure it contains an absolute that it must contain liquid, but the rest is non-absolute, because soup isn't an absolute itself.
Cheese isn't an absolute, what it is can vary, and so you define it by using non-absolutes.
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On July 23 2010 17:37 azotic wrote:
I'd like to offer a couple thoughts here:
What defines a "cheese" strategy isn't any objective description but instead the feeling of frustration on the receiving end that it's qualitatively unfair. "If he'd played fairly I would have beaten him."
All the other definitions are chasing what makes experienced players feel that a strategy is unfair.
As for arguing that "we don't need the term," well, as long as people use it, we're stuck with it.
Exactly! (+ fix)
just another form of whining, experience has nothing to do with it - well, using slang word help whiners feel better i guess
And yeah, were stuck with it, nothing bad tho, always make me smile when i hear it.
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United States11637 Posts
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5673 Posts
![[image loading]](https://theinnerdoor.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/cheese-pizza.jpg)
Yum.
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Katowice25012 Posts
I like pizza cheese, but hate cheese pizza. Where does put me? I don't know where I stand, help me out TL!
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5673 Posts
That is a very fair cheese rank btw. Totally correct to put swiss above cheddar. Very unbiased rank, and no one is going to argue about this except blind, rabid fanboys.
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5673 Posts
See what I mean? Here come the haters. These guys just don't get that the Cheese Rank is much more than just each cheese's current status. It's about so much more than that. If you just want to see which cheese has a better ELO atm just go to the supermarket. Seriously, you kids.
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Katowice25012 Posts
Swiss is great but you're all overvaluing it. Cheddar vs Swiss bo5 cheddar comes out on top (though it would take all 5).
I don't even know what to say about Brie #1.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
I'm sorry but nothing touches Danish double Cream Brie. Nothing gets close rofl.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.wisconsincheesemart.com/images/4295CheddarWheelWeb.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/may2009/6/9/edam-cheese-pic-rex-features-862302803.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.igourmet.com/images/productsLG/mozzarella.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.foodsubs.com/Photos/swisscheese.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://shop.hotscot.net/customer_images/E5EF3591-DC95-4F40-86AC-F4B558D092A6/large/mull%20brie%20plate-large.jpg)
