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I honestly cannot find room for this term. I doubt many of you can once you've logically dissect this term.
We will start by assuming Liquidpedia holds the correct definitions. In this particular topic I must ask that we do not alter the definition in any way in pursuit of a clear and rational discussion.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Cheese
Cheese generally refers to an all-in strategy that relies on surprise to win a game early without serious resistance.
Now the problem I have with this term, is WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE.
So in order for a "strategy" to be considered a "cheese-strategy" it must be one that relies on
- All In (what is considered all in? it works you win, it doesn't you gg?)
- Suprise (Is the game not revolving around suprise? its a strategy game. your not going to TELL the opponent your strategy, even if you are going 3 gate into expand are you going to TELL your opponent, hey I am going to 3 gate and expand, rush me)
- Early (how early?)
- Serious resistance (how serious?)
So what I dont see is why do we even need this term.
1.) if a strategy is all in aka I either win or GG, then call the strategy an "all-in strategy"
There is NO NEED to call it cheese
2.) if a strategy is early agression taking advantage of the lack of serious resistance, then just call the strategy an "early agression strategy"
There is NO NEED to call it cheese
3.) if a strategy is based on surprise.. wait a minute there are strategies that aren't based on suprise?
Then of course many would ask, well "cheese" is simply a classification, there is no harm in having it. It allows for much easier communication.
My answer is that, unfortunately there are MANY people out there, by many I mean literally 90% of the people, have a DIFFERENT definition for cheese. So the idea of using the word cheese for ease of converse is actually back firing.
If a game consisted of a cannon rush then just say, blabla won with a cannon rush
If a game consisted of a 6 warp gate stalker all in then just say, blabla won with a all-in 6 warp gate
If a game consisted of a all in reaper then just say, blabla won with all-in reaper
If a game consisted of a proxy barracks/gateway then just say, blabla won with proxy baracks/gateway
WHY do we need to put a LABEL on it and call it cheesE?
There is "NO" reason to do so.
Well you must now be thinking, well f'k it, who cares, someone guy came up with the term and now its popular, why does it matter, just let it be.
My answer is that this term actually devalues many strategies because people lack the understanding of cheese.
From a recent tournament that shall remain nameless so I don't have to use spoiler tags, Tester a popular korean player went faster voidray againts TLO. Many people BOO'd and said wow tester won with a voidray cheese. Its not this statement that bugs me, its the implication of this statement.
The way people talk about cheese they imply it is
1.) easy
2.) nearly unstoppable
3.) for noobs
when that is CLEARLY not the case. A cheese is NONE of those. Refer back to the liquidpedia cheese definition I wrote down at the very beginning of this post.
On top of all this, people are afraid to (unless your TLO in which case its not cheese, its "creativity") experiment with more bizarre strategies that will truly advance the game.
last but not least, not to be picky but I really dislike how Day[9] called HuK's 4 warp gate kinda "cheesey". WTF DOES THAT MEAN?
Why do you need to say that even? There is literally 0 accurate meaning that comes with that sentence.
Your strategy is "cheesey". Wtf?
Its either "an all-in strategy that relies on surprise to win a game early without serious resistance" or its not. How can a strategy be "kinda cheesey".
What results from this is people go " Oh ! he says its kinda cheesey which must mean its kinda noobish, I guess HuK isn't that great of a player after all" and believe me when you read the comments, you can DEFINITELY see people getting that kind of negative(i'd say) understanding.
People continue on to absurd things like HuK can't play macro games because he has to cheese all the time. Like wth?
So who else wishes to eliminate this term?
(keeping in mind that it will not be but this is a discussion forum meant for discussion)
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i guess you have my vote.
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No I don't think we need to eliminate the term, since we would just replace it with a different term meaning the same thing. Nor do we need to redefine the term. It's fine as it is, we know what it means.
On your analysis of Cheesy, how can you not understand what Cheesy means? It means that a strategy is partly reliant on not being scouted and is semi-all-in. It doesn't insta-win, but neither is it an instant loss if it doesn't work. You can argue that that applies to all strategies, but its just more for cheesy strategies.
Edit: Oh, and on cheese being easy/noobish. Ok some people may misuse it this way, but for instance; (KotB tourny spoiler)
+ Show Spoiler +Tester did a 4warpgate rush against HuK to warp units into his main. It was clearly a cheese, but it wasn't noobish by any means. Intotherainbow also utilized some highly effective cheese (or semi cheese) and this provides a good example of semi cheese. He pushed with some marines/marauders and at the same time floated his proxy factory into his main to divert forces. Definitely 'cheesy', as it relies on the proxy fac not being scouted, and is a clear attempt to end the game early. It is also semi all-in, as if it was to fail it would put him at a rather severe disadvantage. However it is not clean cut cheese, as should it fail he hasn't lost the game completely. Hence cheesy.
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I agree and I keep hearing it on streams over and over (even when it's obviously not an all-in strategy, but simply aggressive play).
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you're way overthinking things, and at the same time perpetuating the negative stigma attached to "cheese"
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I don't think we need to eliminate the term either. I just think people need to be intelligent when applying the term to someone's play. As it stands now, just about every strategy in SC2 is "cheese" in some person's mind. It's getting to the point where one player in every King of the Beta match is supposedly cheesing. I really just prefer to avoid the term as it usually just comes up when someone is complaining about a quick game that isn't as exciting as a super long intense macro fest or a strategy they lost too.
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Nothing wrong with the term. If you take it as a negative or derogatory term that is a self issue. No different then terms like A-Move, Massing, Turtle, Bulldog, etc....It is just a strat or play style term. If its used wrong - don't listen to those streams, obviously the casters don't do their homework or run to easy terms when casting.
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On July 23 2010 16:23 TheOracle wrote:
No I don't think we need to eliminate the term, since we would just replace it with a different term meaning the same thing.
and if you've read my entire post you'd see that cheese is a classification of a bunch of strats
there is no need for it. people will not come up with something they do not need. Do you see someone coming up with a word that defines watering plants and bringing them outside?
Nor do we need to redefine the term. It's fine as it is, we know what it means.
if you've read I told you specifically not to alter its definition. you must be illiterate or just skipped that part, im hoping on the latter.
On your analysis of Cheesy, how can you not understand what Cheesy means?
It means that a strategy is partly reliant on not being scouted and is semi-all-in.
except that is not what cheese means at all. So let me ask YOU how YOU cannot understand what Cheese means when its clearly stated in the liquidpedia dictionary.
It doesn't insta-win, but neither is it an instant loss if it doesn't work. You can argue that that applies to all strategies, but its just more for cheesy strategies.
this doesn't make sense. this is like saying
an apple can also be called a wapple because its more like a wapple anyways.
I don't exactly know the name of that particular logical fallacy but its error is obvious.
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It depends on the person.. to me cheese is the strategy used to win a game early or at least inflict a lot of early damage leading to an easy win.. like building gateways in the corner of the enemy's base. I don't see it in a negative light at all. Honestly, if you are complaining about cheese and losing to cheese constantly.. then mostly likely you are a weak player with a bad build or lack basic scouting.
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"3.) if a strategy is based on surprise.. wait a minute there are strategies that aren't based on suprise?"
Pretty much everyones standard game plan should rely on something that's NOT surprising just very well executed/well managed/well timed that'll set you up for a strong midgame. So yes, strategies that aren't based on surprise are, and should be, very common.
I personally believe that cheese still is a valueable term as there actually are strategies and probably always will be, that are harder to defend rather than execute and the gain/loss is much better for the person cheesing.
That being said, what differs the bad and good players when cheesing is that good players often have a follow through plan if their so called "cheese" is not very successful whereas bad players often cheese and either straight up win or lose by doing so.
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haha, nice read ^^ I have to agree, people overuse the term.
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and if you've read my entire post you'd see that cheese is a classification of a bunch of strats
there is no need for it. people will not come up with something they do not need. Do you see someone coming up with a word that defines watering plants and bringing them outside?
Yes, its called gardening. In fact, gardening "is a classification of bunch of strategies" in which to grow plants, so...Whats your point?
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On July 23 2010 16:28 Railz wrote:
Nothing wrong with the term. If you take it as a negative or derogatory term that is a self issue. No different then terms like A-Move, Massing, Turtle, Bulldog, etc....It is just a strat or play style term. If its used wrong - don't listen to those streams, obviously the casters don't do their homework or run to easy terms when casting.
exceltl a-move means a-move
turtling means turtling
cheese is a classification. its not needed.
Its like saying
turtling, defending, sieging up at your own base on high ground, walling yourself in
should all be called BLABLA
BLABLA is equal to what cheese is. Theres no need to have this BLABLA.
If someone is turtling THEN JUST SAY THEY ARE TURTLING.
If someone is cannon rushing THEN JUST SAY THEY ARE CANNON RUSHING.
Get my point? Excuse my caps its to emphasize  Im not shouting !
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10387 Posts
Just do it like the Koreans and call it "Strategic Play" then. Koreans don't use the term Cheese at all.. just foreigners, probably invented by somebody like Artosis or Idra after they got abused by Protoss too much.
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On July 23 2010 16:30 Railz wrote:Show nested quote +and if you've read my entire post you'd see that cheese is a classification of a bunch of strats
there is no need for it. people will not come up with something they do not need. Do you see someone coming up with a word that defines watering plants and bringing them outside?
Yes, its called gardening. In fact, gardening "is a classification of bunch of strategies" in which to grow plants, so...Whats your point?
no its not called gardening. gardening consists on a variety of actions not specifically watering plants and bringing them outside.
You are obviously missing the point to where your just trying to demote this argument by atking my horrible on-the-go examples, so I would kindly suggest you to either re-read this topic another day when your feeling a bit more open minded or just leave the discussion. that again is my "suggestion"
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On July 23 2010 16:31 ArvickHero wrote:
Just do it like the Koreans and call it "Strategic Play" then. Koreans don't use the term Cheese at all.. just foreigners, probably invented by somebody like Artosis or Idra after they got abused by Protoss too much.
see, even the most starcraft dominant community in the world does NEED this term, why do we ?
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Cheese is a fun label and it creates drama, if we outlaw the word Cheese then Idra can't say "You cheesy noob" anymore. Why remove the fun?
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Meh cheese is just a slang word for a stupid strategy i could be perfectly economic and still be considered cheese (14cc in SC1 for example). Its just a foreign starcraft cultural word for people to define something they hate or think is stupid. You mind as well try to eliminate people using gay as a derogative word than us to stop using cheese. It doesn't hurt anyone and people like it why remove it?
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Thing is, saying 'all-in strategy', 'early aggression', etc., all don't have the negative connotation that the word 'cheese' does. When someone say cheese, you know they're not exactly pleased with the person's strategy.
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On July 23 2010 16:35 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
Cheese is a fun label and it creates drama, if we outlaw the word Cheese then Idra can't say "You cheesy noob" anymore. Why remove the fun?
funny how hypocritical idra can be.
He respects Tester so much saying hes far above everyone else (in the Artosis ask idra interview) yet even Tester does early voidray and strategies alike.
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EPT
