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On July 23 2010 16:43 virgozero wrote:
and "highly snobby and elitist" wtf?
so everytime someone comes up with a discussion that many people go "hmm?"
its considered snobby and elitist? You should reflect on that.
LOLLLLL
Okay man, I wasn't actually going to respond to this thread at all, but this response literally made me laugh out loud. Literally.
You want to know why this thread is snobby and elitist? Here's a linguistics lesson for you.
Definition: Elitism
Elitism is the belief or attitude that some individuals, who supposedly form an elite — a select group of people with, intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes — are those whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight
Definition: Snobby
A snob is someone who adopts the worldview of snobbery — that some people are inherently inferior to him or her for any one of a variety of reasons, including real or supposed intellect, wealth, education, ancestry, taste, beauty, et cetera. Often, the form of snobbery reflects the snob's personal attributes. For example, a common snobbery of the affluent is the belief that wealth is either the cause or result of superiority, or both, and a common snobbery of the physically attractive is that beauty is paramount.
These threads are completely ridiculous because they postulate that there's a superior way to speak which we should all adopt. You're defending a highly logical definition of language, and that's fine.
However you (and many others) completely neglect the social aspect of language, which is driven by intent and delivering meaning between different people. As it stands, cheese does have a very specific connotation in the community. That connotation is as you mentioned negative and underhanded.
Because you decide to entirely ignore the social aspect of language and instead try to abolish this word based on your presumed superior logical arguments, I call you both snobby and elitist (and rightfully so).
I'm done with this thread. I cannot believe I spent five minutes of my life writing this post up. Enjoy your completely pointless discussion, and I hope it ends in the way you want it to. If you can't see why you're being completely ridiculous then we have nothing more to talk about.
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On July 23 2010 16:44 TheOracle wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 16:28 virgozero wrote:
and if you've read my entire post you'd see that cheese is a classification of a bunch of strats
there is no need for it. people will not come up with something they do not need. Do you see someone coming up with a word that defines watering plants and bringing them outside?
No, because that's a combination of two things, where as cheese is just one. It is a broad term meant to encompass a variety of strategies that share common ground. We do see people coming up with terms for going out into the wilderness and walking around. Hiking. This is a better comparison, (despite being random) as like cheese Hiking can encompass lots of things, you could walk up a mountain, you could walk along a river, whatever. Its the same broad strokes of an activity, with varying specifics.
Okay I'll admit that is a horrible example.
On July 23 2010 16:28 virgozero wrote:
if you've read I told you specifically not to alter its definition. you must be illiterate or just skipped that part, im hoping on the latter.
Ok lets avoid insults. I thought it relevant to include that part, as changing the definition is the logical followthough to having a term which is thought to be pointless. I probably should have included my reasoning there. [/quote]
so your saying we should follow your reasoning to what cheese should be. This is weird because if you have a completely different definition then why don't you use use a completely different word altogether? You can call yours MILK.
On July 23 2010 16:28 virgozero wrote:Show nested quote +On your analysis of Cheesy, how can you not understand what Cheesy means?
It means that a strategy is partly reliant on not being scouted and is semi-all-in. except that is not what cheese means at all. So let me ask YOU how YOU cannot understand what Cheese means when its clearly stated in the liquidpedia dictionary.
Ah what? I do understand what Cheese means. Let me re-state what I was trying to say originally, a little clearer, as you didn't get it. Cheesy is similar to Cheese, however it is only partially all-in, and only partially relies on surprise. However it still tries to end the game early, and still tries to do so without serious opposition.
Please example the following:
Partially all-in
Partially relies on suprise
an all-in is called an all-in because its guess what !!??!?! ALL-IN ?
so plesae tell me how something can be"partially" all-in.
Its like saying someone is partially drinking water.
Your either DRINKING water OR YOUR NOT. How can something be cheesey. Its either a cheese or its not.
Its like saying something is Fastey. Its either fast or its not theres no "fastey".
On July 23 2010 16:28 virgozero wrote:Show nested quote +
It doesn't insta-win, but neither is it an instant loss if it doesn't work. You can argue that that applies to all strategies, but its just more for cheesy strategies.
this doesn't make sense. this is like saying an apple can also be called a wapple because its more like a wapple anyways. I don't exactly know the name of that particular logical fallacy but its error is obvious.
Ok I'll admit that that was very badly worded. However your comparison doesn't really work either. What I'm saying is, firstly, see above for what exactly Cheesy is. If we then add onto this that Cheese either works, or loses the game for the person doing it (Since it is all-in), then Cheesy is almost all in. [/quote]
again.. wtf is "almost all-in" if its almost-all in meaning its not all-in... THEN JUST SAY ITS NOT ALL-IN. Aka if its not cheese but its almost like a cheese then just say ITS NOT CHEESE.
Also i'll add in my edit to the previous post, since it gives a good example of what im talking about. Oh, and on cheese being easy/noobish. Ok some people may misuse it this way, but for instance; (KotB tourny spoiler) + Show Spoiler +
Tester did a 4warpgate rush against HuK to warp units into his main. It was clearly a cheese, but it wasn't noobish by any means.
it was clearly a cheese?
1.) it wasn't all in, if the guy kills the pylon.. boohoo he lost a pylon......
2.) it wasnt early
Intotherainbow also utilized some highly effective cheese (or semi cheese)
agian wtf is semi-cheese. Its either cheese or its not -.-
and this provides a good example of semi cheese. He pushed with some marines/marauders and at the same time floated his proxy factory into his main to divert forces. Definitely 'cheesy', as it relies on the proxy fac not being scouted, and is a clear attempt to end the game early.
1.) it wasn't all in
2.) it wasnt early
so nope
It is also semi all-in,
aka not all-in -.-
as if it was to fail it would put him at a rather severe disadvantage.
ffsakes your overthinking things. If you engange in a battle and you loose NO SHIT YOUR AT A DISADVANTAGE -.-
However it is not clean cut cheese, as should it fail he hasn't lost the game completely. Hence cheesy.
hence this word is stupid and useless and fabricated upon other meaningless terms.
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I will join you in not referring to cats as cats because after all there is no such thing as a cat.
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Standard strategies do not rely on surprise. Sure, if I go 3 warpgate expand I'd prefer it if my opponent didn't know that, but even if he does, I'm still perfectly able to win the game. If however I go for a baneling bust against terran, my strategy relies entirely on not being scouted, because if the terran sees it in time, he will have an unbustable wall and I might as well type out.
In standard strategies, not being scouted is a nice thing to have, in cheese strategies, its absolutely essential.
Also, spoiling a game that was streamed a few hours ago? Wtf? You know, people in Europe who weren't up last night at 4 am didn't have a chance to see those games yet.
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If you win you win, if you lose you can call it whatever you want to console yourself, but that doesn't change a thing within the game.
The term is pretty silly, but people use it for the same reason they use any of the other terms: because it's part of the community's jargon. I don't think labels will change anyone's gameplay. Any effective strategy will be used no matter how many people complain it's "unfair" or "bm."
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
I wanted to close this thread because I think it is a stupid fad right now to "call out" every overly used term in SC2 but there was so much damn effort and people seem to want to talk about this terminology.
You are safe for now 
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On July 23 2010 16:51 virgozero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 16:39 Crahptacular wrote:
"Cheese" as a term is more specific than any of the suggestions you give, and as such isn't useless.
i said at the very beginning we are assuming liquidpedia is correct. Show nested quote +You're also plain wrong at parts (e.g. as mentioned, most 'standard' strategies don't rely at all on surprise). Lol okay. So what exactly is the point of scouting? You won't be suprised right? everythings going to happen exactly as you wish. why send that lonely scv out there to scout, you know whats coming. Show nested quote +
Personally I think most people have similar enough ideas of what "cheese" means so that when it's used, others understand what's being conveyed. Sure it's misused (a fast void ray with a stable transition planned out is not cheese, obviously), but you have to blame the people misusing the term, not the term itself.
again this is because you have a diff. defintion with cheese but like I said we're assuming liquidpedia is the dictionary.
You misunderstood every part of my post you quoted.
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I do think it's overused but we can't remove it since the word is definitely practical.
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Oh boy another thread about the cheese. This should be moved to blog.
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On July 23 2010 17:01 FC.Strike wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 16:43 virgozero wrote:
and "highly snobby and elitist" wtf?
so everytime someone comes up with a discussion that many people go "hmm?"
its considered snobby and elitist? You should reflect on that. LOLLLLL Okay man, I wasn't actually going to respond to this thread at all, but this response literally made me laugh out loud. Literally.
really O_o..
You want to know why this thread is snobby and elitist? Here's a linguistics lesson for you.
sweet how much do you charge an hour? whats your degree? are you famous?
AKA GET TO THE F-ING POINT AND STOP SAYING OFFTOPIC/USELESS STUFF
-.-
Definition: Elitism
Elitism is the belief or attitude that some individuals, who supposedly form an elite — a select group of people with, intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes — are those whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight
and where in my post does it demonstrate any of this lol?
Definition: Snobby
A snob is someone who adopts the worldview of snobbery — that some people are inherently inferior to him or her for any one of a variety of reasons, including real or supposed intellect, wealth, education, ancestry, taste, beauty, et cetera. Often, the form of snobbery reflects the snob's personal attributes. For example, a common snobbery of the affluent is the belief that wealth is either the cause or result of superiority, or both, and a common snobbery of the physically attractive is that beauty is paramount.
oh so me saying some people are dumb = snobby?
Great because snobby is EXACTLY what I am. i think loads of people are dumb. in fact I think every single person is relatively dumb.
These threads are completely ridiculous because they postulate that there's a superior way to speak which we should all adopt. You're defending a highly logical definition of language, and that's fine.
lol wut? I thought we were talking about cheese with the english language?
However you (and many others) completely neglect the social aspect of language, which is driven by intent and delivering meaning between different people. As it stands, cheese does have a very specific connotation in the community. That connotation is as you mentioned negative and underhanded.
so your saying the liquidpedia is wrong? What makes your definition more "right" then person XYZ ?
Because you decide to entirely ignore the social aspect of language and instead try to abolish this word based on your presumed superior logical arguments, I call you both snobby and elitist (and rightfully so).
so thats like saying because 10 people one day decided to call cows horses , despite what the dictionary says, cows are now called horses. Wohoo !! Hey you disagree? GOD YOU MUST BE A SNOBBY ELITIST !
I'm done with this thread. I cannot believe I spent five minutes of my life writing this post up. Enjoy your completely pointless discussion, and I hope it ends in the way you want it to. If you can't see why you're being completely ridiculous then we have nothing more to talk about.
thanks for the info bro we totally cared.
and if you bothered to read
So who else wishes to eliminate this term?
(keeping in mind that it will not be but this is a discussion forum meant for discussion)
there I bolded it for.
easier on the eye i hope.
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On July 23 2010 17:10 nttea wrote:
I do think it's overused but we can't remove it since the word is definitely practical.
im arguing its not though.
cause look.
if a strategy is all-in, just call it all-in.
if a strategy is cannon-rush, just call it cannon-rush
if a strategy was proxy gate, just cal it proxy gate.
Why add another classification for nothing?
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Lots of threads these days with folks thinking they have a better take on modern SC vernacular. They don't.
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People gotta complain about something, if you take that away they will find something else. Clearly there's nothing wrong with "cheese" it's just another way to play. I always believed that since everyone is different there is no "standard" and you play to your own standard. Therefore, if you are a macro player, you go with macro builds. Similarly, if you are a micro player, you should do intricate harass/rush plays to suit your micro skills. If everyone played this non existent "standard", the person with the best play style to suit what became that "standard" will always have the edge. It's not that their mechanics are better, it's just that that play style has been adopted as acceptable so others are trying to mimic a style that doesn't match themselves and thus playing at a handicap.
-Play how you want, no style is wrong and the winner is generally the better player  [Over a period of games though]
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Cheese kinda sucks because if it fails, it's a complete disappointment for the audience outside of some epic micro battles. Either way, you usually feel cheated from an epic game.
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I just re-read the OP and have come to the conclusion that what you are arguing against is NOT the term Cheese. You are arguing against the Human Condition. People are GOING be stupid. They are going to believe what they are told without looking in to it themselves. They are going to misunderstand things. They are going to mislabel things. They are going to spread misinformation. They are going to call everything that beats them cheesy and are going to call all of their own cheese creative or clever.
You're trying to treat a symptom instead of the disease. I wish the problem were that simple, but until we start teaching Critical Thinking and Rationality in schools, the problem isn't going to go away.
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On July 23 2010 17:01 Zerksys wrote:
Wow I'd just like to say virgozero you are mean. Everyone is trying to explain to you that they still wish to have the word cheese in their vocabulary and you lash out like a wolf cornered by hunters.
WTF? how am i mean >.> I just wanted to discuss and I offered my opinion and am trying my best to help people realize my reasoning.
Let me give you another example. The word "epic" is the perfect example of this particular situation. Now I do not like this word. Do I use it? Sure I use it plenty of times in my daily vocabulary. Now the reason I do not like this word is not because I dislike the sound or its meaning. I dislike this word because it is overused and often in cases where I do not approve. This is exactly your argument against the word cheese.
no actually. my argument is that cheese is not needed. where as an epic game is needed.
how else are you going to say that game was epic?? i mean its.. epic lol you cant sub another word.
if a came was cannon rushed then why not just say cannon rush.
You believe it is overused and in some cases where people use it, you do not agree. Because I dislike the word epic, do I go around saying to people you should not use the word because it is used so incorrectly all the time? No I do not. Do I go around telling people to stop using the word because there are other suitable replacements? No I do not. It is a word that people have come to know and to accept. This is the word cheese. Sure, cheese can have a negative connotation as I've pointed out in my last post, but it is also a positive thing in some cases. Take it how you will.
so i am not allowed to tell people my opinions? wtfs the point of this forum?
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On July 23 2010 17:12 sk` wrote:
Lots of threads these days with folks thinking they have a better take on modern SC vernacular. They don't.
Hi ! your so smart, are you willing to enlighten us?
honestly if you have something to say, SAY IT. Dont give this "snobby elitism" bs
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On July 23 2010 17:07 Drunken.Jedi wrote:
Standard strategies do not rely on surprise. Sure, if I go 3 warpgate expand I'd prefer it if my opponent didn't know that, but even if he does, I'm still perfectly able to win the game. If however I go for a baneling bust against terran, my strategy relies entirely on not being scouted, because if the terran sees it in time, he will have an unbustable wall and I might as well type out.
In standard strategies, not being scouted is a nice thing to have, in cheese strategies, its absolutely essential.
Also, spoiling a game that was streamed a few hours ago? Wtf? You know, people in Europe who weren't up last night at 4 am didn't have a chance to see those games yet.
Okay, now we're running into trouble, the whole point of the strategy game is to conceal your build, even if you play standard... I don't get what you guys have done to your brains, but everything is BEST with surprise, your game SHOULD rely on your surprise, people just watch replays and copy without thinking. Even if you play as "standard/safe" as you guys are, you should give the impression you are doing an all in so they waste thoughts on defending, and resources on things they might not need.
Play every game the same, they shouldn't know if you are all-in or not.
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No, I don't want it to be removed and I don't even cheese ever.
It's just somthing extra for the game. It's fun
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Cheese is just slang for a stupid gimmicky strategy that usually doesn't take much skill at all to pull off.
i.e. photon rushing... any 5 year old can pull this off as long as he doesn't get scouted. It's a really stupid strategy that takes little to no skill but can be an easy win if you pull it off right.
wiktionary definition: (informal) of a solution to a problem, inelegant, showing no skill
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