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I honestly cannot find room for this term. I doubt many of you can once you've logically dissect this term.
We will start by assuming Liquidpedia holds the correct definitions. In this particular topic I must ask that we do not alter the definition in any way in pursuit of a clear and rational discussion.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Cheese
Cheese generally refers to an all-in strategy that relies on surprise to win a game early without serious resistance.
Now the problem I have with this term, is WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE.
So in order for a "strategy" to be considered a "cheese-strategy" it must be one that relies on
- All In (what is considered all in? it works you win, it doesn't you gg?)
- Suprise (Is the game not revolving around suprise? its a strategy game. your not going to TELL the opponent your strategy, even if you are going 3 gate into expand are you going to TELL your opponent, hey I am going to 3 gate and expand, rush me)
- Early (how early?)
- Serious resistance (how serious?)
So what I dont see is why do we even need this term.
1.) if a strategy is all in aka I either win or GG, then call the strategy an "all-in strategy"
There is NO NEED to call it cheese
2.) if a strategy is early agression taking advantage of the lack of serious resistance, then just call the strategy an "early agression strategy"
There is NO NEED to call it cheese
3.) if a strategy is based on surprise.. wait a minute there are strategies that aren't based on suprise?
Then of course many would ask, well "cheese" is simply a classification, there is no harm in having it. It allows for much easier communication.
My answer is that, unfortunately there are MANY people out there, by many I mean literally 90% of the people, have a DIFFERENT definition for cheese. So the idea of using the word cheese for ease of converse is actually back firing.
If a game consisted of a cannon rush then just say, blabla won with a cannon rush
If a game consisted of a 6 warp gate stalker all in then just say, blabla won with a all-in 6 warp gate
If a game consisted of a all in reaper then just say, blabla won with all-in reaper
If a game consisted of a proxy barracks/gateway then just say, blabla won with proxy baracks/gateway
WHY do we need to put a LABEL on it and call it cheesE?
There is "NO" reason to do so.
Well you must now be thinking, well f'k it, who cares, someone guy came up with the term and now its popular, why does it matter, just let it be.
My answer is that this term actually devalues many strategies because people lack the understanding of cheese.
From a recent tournament that shall remain nameless so I don't have to use spoiler tags, Tester a popular korean player went faster voidray againts TLO. Many people BOO'd and said wow tester won with a voidray cheese. Its not this statement that bugs me, its the implication of this statement.
The way people talk about cheese they imply it is
1.) easy
2.) nearly unstoppable
3.) for noobs
when that is CLEARLY not the case. A cheese is NONE of those. Refer back to the liquidpedia cheese definition I wrote down at the very beginning of this post.
On top of all this, people are afraid to (unless your TLO in which case its not cheese, its "creativity") experiment with more bizarre strategies that will truly advance the game.
last but not least, not to be picky but I really dislike how Day[9] called HuK's 4 warp gate kinda "cheesey". WTF DOES THAT MEAN?
Why do you need to say that even? There is literally 0 accurate meaning that comes with that sentence.
Your strategy is "cheesey". Wtf?
Its either "an all-in strategy that relies on surprise to win a game early without serious resistance" or its not. How can a strategy be "kinda cheesey".
What results from this is people go " Oh ! he says its kinda cheesey which must mean its kinda noobish, I guess HuK isn't that great of a player after all" and believe me when you read the comments, you can DEFINITELY see people getting that kind of negative(i'd say) understanding.
People continue on to absurd things like HuK can't play macro games because he has to cheese all the time. Like wth?
So who else wishes to eliminate this term?
(keeping in mind that it will not be but this is a discussion forum meant for discussion)
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i guess you have my vote.
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No I don't think we need to eliminate the term, since we would just replace it with a different term meaning the same thing. Nor do we need to redefine the term. It's fine as it is, we know what it means.
On your analysis of Cheesy, how can you not understand what Cheesy means? It means that a strategy is partly reliant on not being scouted and is semi-all-in. It doesn't insta-win, but neither is it an instant loss if it doesn't work. You can argue that that applies to all strategies, but its just more for cheesy strategies.
Edit: Oh, and on cheese being easy/noobish. Ok some people may misuse it this way, but for instance; (KotB tourny spoiler)
+ Show Spoiler +Tester did a 4warpgate rush against HuK to warp units into his main. It was clearly a cheese, but it wasn't noobish by any means. Intotherainbow also utilized some highly effective cheese (or semi cheese) and this provides a good example of semi cheese. He pushed with some marines/marauders and at the same time floated his proxy factory into his main to divert forces. Definitely 'cheesy', as it relies on the proxy fac not being scouted, and is a clear attempt to end the game early. It is also semi all-in, as if it was to fail it would put him at a rather severe disadvantage. However it is not clean cut cheese, as should it fail he hasn't lost the game completely. Hence cheesy.
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I agree and I keep hearing it on streams over and over (even when it's obviously not an all-in strategy, but simply aggressive play).
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you're way overthinking things, and at the same time perpetuating the negative stigma attached to "cheese"
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I don't think we need to eliminate the term either. I just think people need to be intelligent when applying the term to someone's play. As it stands now, just about every strategy in SC2 is "cheese" in some person's mind. It's getting to the point where one player in every King of the Beta match is supposedly cheesing. I really just prefer to avoid the term as it usually just comes up when someone is complaining about a quick game that isn't as exciting as a super long intense macro fest or a strategy they lost too.
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Nothing wrong with the term. If you take it as a negative or derogatory term that is a self issue. No different then terms like A-Move, Massing, Turtle, Bulldog, etc....It is just a strat or play style term. If its used wrong - don't listen to those streams, obviously the casters don't do their homework or run to easy terms when casting.
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On July 23 2010 16:23 TheOracle wrote:
No I don't think we need to eliminate the term, since we would just replace it with a different term meaning the same thing.
and if you've read my entire post you'd see that cheese is a classification of a bunch of strats
there is no need for it. people will not come up with something they do not need. Do you see someone coming up with a word that defines watering plants and bringing them outside?
Nor do we need to redefine the term. It's fine as it is, we know what it means.
if you've read I told you specifically not to alter its definition. you must be illiterate or just skipped that part, im hoping on the latter.
On your analysis of Cheesy, how can you not understand what Cheesy means?
It means that a strategy is partly reliant on not being scouted and is semi-all-in.
except that is not what cheese means at all. So let me ask YOU how YOU cannot understand what Cheese means when its clearly stated in the liquidpedia dictionary.
It doesn't insta-win, but neither is it an instant loss if it doesn't work. You can argue that that applies to all strategies, but its just more for cheesy strategies.
this doesn't make sense. this is like saying
an apple can also be called a wapple because its more like a wapple anyways.
I don't exactly know the name of that particular logical fallacy but its error is obvious.
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It depends on the person.. to me cheese is the strategy used to win a game early or at least inflict a lot of early damage leading to an easy win.. like building gateways in the corner of the enemy's base. I don't see it in a negative light at all. Honestly, if you are complaining about cheese and losing to cheese constantly.. then mostly likely you are a weak player with a bad build or lack basic scouting.
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"3.) if a strategy is based on surprise.. wait a minute there are strategies that aren't based on suprise?"
Pretty much everyones standard game plan should rely on something that's NOT surprising just very well executed/well managed/well timed that'll set you up for a strong midgame. So yes, strategies that aren't based on surprise are, and should be, very common.
I personally believe that cheese still is a valueable term as there actually are strategies and probably always will be, that are harder to defend rather than execute and the gain/loss is much better for the person cheesing.
That being said, what differs the bad and good players when cheesing is that good players often have a follow through plan if their so called "cheese" is not very successful whereas bad players often cheese and either straight up win or lose by doing so.
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haha, nice read ^^ I have to agree, people overuse the term.
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and if you've read my entire post you'd see that cheese is a classification of a bunch of strats
there is no need for it. people will not come up with something they do not need. Do you see someone coming up with a word that defines watering plants and bringing them outside?
Yes, its called gardening. In fact, gardening "is a classification of bunch of strategies" in which to grow plants, so...Whats your point?
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On July 23 2010 16:28 Railz wrote:
Nothing wrong with the term. If you take it as a negative or derogatory term that is a self issue. No different then terms like A-Move, Massing, Turtle, Bulldog, etc....It is just a strat or play style term. If its used wrong - don't listen to those streams, obviously the casters don't do their homework or run to easy terms when casting.
exceltl a-move means a-move
turtling means turtling
cheese is a classification. its not needed.
Its like saying
turtling, defending, sieging up at your own base on high ground, walling yourself in
should all be called BLABLA
BLABLA is equal to what cheese is. Theres no need to have this BLABLA.
If someone is turtling THEN JUST SAY THEY ARE TURTLING.
If someone is cannon rushing THEN JUST SAY THEY ARE CANNON RUSHING.
Get my point? Excuse my caps its to emphasize  Im not shouting !
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10387 Posts
Just do it like the Koreans and call it "Strategic Play" then. Koreans don't use the term Cheese at all.. just foreigners, probably invented by somebody like Artosis or Idra after they got abused by Protoss too much.
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On July 23 2010 16:30 Railz wrote:Show nested quote +and if you've read my entire post you'd see that cheese is a classification of a bunch of strats
there is no need for it. people will not come up with something they do not need. Do you see someone coming up with a word that defines watering plants and bringing them outside?
Yes, its called gardening. In fact, gardening "is a classification of bunch of strategies" in which to grow plants, so...Whats your point?
no its not called gardening. gardening consists on a variety of actions not specifically watering plants and bringing them outside.
You are obviously missing the point to where your just trying to demote this argument by atking my horrible on-the-go examples, so I would kindly suggest you to either re-read this topic another day when your feeling a bit more open minded or just leave the discussion. that again is my "suggestion"
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On July 23 2010 16:31 ArvickHero wrote:
Just do it like the Koreans and call it "Strategic Play" then. Koreans don't use the term Cheese at all.. just foreigners, probably invented by somebody like Artosis or Idra after they got abused by Protoss too much.
see, even the most starcraft dominant community in the world does NEED this term, why do we ?
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Cheese is a fun label and it creates drama, if we outlaw the word Cheese then Idra can't say "You cheesy noob" anymore. Why remove the fun?
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Meh cheese is just a slang word for a stupid strategy i could be perfectly economic and still be considered cheese (14cc in SC1 for example). Its just a foreign starcraft cultural word for people to define something they hate or think is stupid. You mind as well try to eliminate people using gay as a derogative word than us to stop using cheese. It doesn't hurt anyone and people like it why remove it?
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Thing is, saying 'all-in strategy', 'early aggression', etc., all don't have the negative connotation that the word 'cheese' does. When someone say cheese, you know they're not exactly pleased with the person's strategy.
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On July 23 2010 16:35 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
Cheese is a fun label and it creates drama, if we outlaw the word Cheese then Idra can't say "You cheesy noob" anymore. Why remove the fun?
funny how hypocritical idra can be.
He respects Tester so much saying hes far above everyone else (in the Artosis ask idra interview) yet even Tester does early voidray and strategies alike.
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Zatic made a thread about Cheese and All-Ins that I believe many of us have come to accept:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=123613
Cheese: A strategy that relies overwhelmingly or entirely on secrecy. If scouted, the strategy fails and puts the executing player at a severe disadvantage, or right out costs him the game.
All-In: An aggressive strategy aimed at killing the opponent off completely in one attack. All available resources are put into this one attack and no follow-up is being considered. Should the attack fail and the opponent live through it, the game is almost certainly lost to a counter or to superior enemy tech/economy.
The Liquipedia should probably be updated to reflect this more modern view.
P.S. The people who care enough about linguistics enough to argue about it are different from the total noobs who use the word in a way not to your liking. I'm not usually irritated by threads, but this and the latest metagame post come across as highly snobby and elitist. I would put in my own 2 cents about my take on this issue, but I don't have the mental energy to argue for or against such a completely meaningless concept.
Good luck with your movement to educate the masses or form a cult of followers who will never use the word cheese or whatever. I for one will be drinking a very tall glass of wine.
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Where did all these starcraft term nazis come from? Chill bro.
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On July 23 2010 16:34 virgozero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 16:30 Railz wrote:and if you've read my entire post you'd see that cheese is a classification of a bunch of strats
there is no need for it. people will not come up with something they do not need. Do you see someone coming up with a word that defines watering plants and bringing them outside?
Yes, its called gardening. In fact, gardening "is a classification of bunch of strategies" in which to grow plants, so...Whats your point? no its not called gardening. gardening consists on a variety of actions not specifically watering plants and bringing them outside. You are obviously missing the point to where your just trying to demote this argument by atking my horrible on-the-go examples, so I would kindly suggest you to either re-read this topic another day when your feeling a bit more open minded or just leave the discussion. that again is my "suggestion"
Yes, but if a passer-by can say the person watering plants is gardening, then in common language - it can mean just that.
And I didn't miss the point of your post. I posted early in the thread regarding my feeling about it. Calm down there sparky. Here, I'll find it again just to save you the hassle.
Nothing wrong with the term. If you take it as a negative or derogatory term that is a self issue. No different then terms like A-Move, Massing, Turtle, Bulldog, etc....It is just a strat or play style term. If its used wrong - don't listen to those streams, obviously the casters don't do their homework or run to easy terms when casting.
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calm down. it's not like you're calling someone a n*gger or something.
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if a strategy is based on surprise.. wait a minute there are strategies that aren't based on suprrise? Yes, of course.
I think there's a very easy line to draw here: would this strategy be at all viable if you were playing the game with shared vision? If the strategy would be an auto-loss if the opponent saw you doing it, it's cheese.
edit: FC.strike's post above sums it up nicely (wasn't there when I was writing this).
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Ban/Eliminate "Square"
I honestly cannot find room for this term. Wikipedia defines a square as "a regular quadrilateral. This means that it has four equal sides and four equal angles (90 degree angles, or right angles)."
So what I don't see is why we even need this term.
1) If a polygon has four sides, just call it a quadrilateral.
There is NO NEED to call it a square.
2) If a polygon has equal sides, just call it equilateral.
There is NO NEED to call it a square.
3) If a polygon has equal angles, just call it equiangular.
There is NO NEED to call it a square.
We could just say "regular quadrilateral" or "regular tetragon" instead!
WHY do we need to put a LABEL on it and call it a squarE?
There is "NO" reason to do so.
"Cheese" as a term is more specific than any of the suggestions you give, and as such isn't useless. The latter part of your argument that talks about people misusing the term is a legitimate complaint, but the first part is just silly. You're also plain wrong at parts (e.g. as mentioned, most 'standard' strategies don't rely at all on surprise).
Personally I think most people have similar enough ideas of what "cheese" means so that when it's used, others understand what's being conveyed. Sure it's misused (a fast void ray with a stable transition planned out is not cheese, obviously), but you have to blame the people misusing the term, not the term itself.
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On July 23 2010 16:31 ArvickHero wrote:
Just do it like the Koreans and call it "Strategic Play" then. Koreans don't use the term Cheese at all.. just foreigners, probably invented by somebody like Artosis or Idra after they got abused by Protoss too much.
Koreans coined the term a long time ago and still use it whenever someone bunker rushes with additional scvs
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Sorry, but your point is basically that we have no need for the word. Well, that's not good enough for me.
A cheese build is one that is highly risky. No, your goal isn't to surprise an enemy in a strategy game, it is to have the better strategy and tactics. Some of these can be surprising, but surprising is something you don't expect. Sure, I can go for a Robo or Council, neither are unexpected for a Protoss to do. Typically, you don't expect me to plant a Pylon in some tactically genius location and rush Warpgates.
All-in means that everything goes in and that you devote all of what you have to it. While there are always exceptions, you will probably have no way of following up an all-in. Yes, people misidentify these things because people don't really have a consensus definition of cheese, but that doesn't mean much for the word itself and whether we should use it.
Early is probably referring to the early game stage, before mid-game begins. I don't know exactly what changes early game from late game, but most, if not all, cheese builds end the game before mid-game goes into effect, before expansions start moving production.
Serious resistance is just what it means, there isn't any serious resistance where you just can steamroll whatever your opponent has, maybe with some micro, maybe not. Yes, they are typically considered noobish for this reason, because you don't need the multitasking skills, although micro skills vary. A 2 Gate proxy is so early that if it isn't expected, there won't be a lot of units to defend and you can just demolish with constant Zealot production.
The word you ignored was relied, in that a cheese build NEEDS these to work. Without them, cheese builds will fail.
I will say luck plays a factor too.
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For a guy who really dislikes the term "cheese" you sure do use it a lot haha. I do admit that the term "cheese" has been quite overused lately. My question is this: is your post just a rant about how you dislike this term or do you seriously think that people should just stop using it? If you are serious about this then let me ask you this: how do you think your post is going to help this? You went on a page long rant attacking players and casters alike. Bad rhetoric if you ask me. Also (I'm not trying to be mean seriously) I had trouble reading your post due to its poor organization.
The second thing is that the definition of cheese CAN indeed fit many types of strategies this is true, but what you are referring to is a the connotation of the word cheese meaning noobish or easy to execute. Let me ask you this though. When I say Huk pulled cheese to win against virgozero vs when I say Huk pulled the PERFECT cheese to win against virgozero suddenly the term cheese has taken on two meanings hasn't it? The word cheese doesn't always have a bad connotation as you think. For example if I used cheese to refer to boxer's bunker rushes immediately the word takes on a positive tone; however, if I say it with a bad tone then of course it's going to take on a bad meaning. It's all in how you say the word that indicates its meaning.
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On July 23 2010 16:37 FC.Strike wrote:Zatic made a thread about Cheese and All-Ins that I believe many of us have come to accept: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=123613Cheese: A strategy that relies overwhelmingly or entirely on secrecy. If scouted, the strategy fails and puts the executing player at a severe disadvantage, or right out costs him the game. All-In: An aggressive strategy aimed at killing the opponent off completely in one attack. All available resources are put into this one attack and no follow-up is being considered. Should the attack fail and the opponent live through it, the game is almost certainly lost to a counter or to superior enemy tech/economy. The Liquipedia should probably be updated to reflect this more modern view. P.S. The people who care enough about linguistics enough to argue about it are different from the total noobs who use the word in a way not to your liking. I'm not usually irritated by threads, but this and the latest metagame post come across as highly snobby and elitist. I would put in my own 2 cents about my take on this issue, but I don't have the mental energy to argue for or against such a completely meaningless concept. Good luck with your movement to educate the masses or form a cult of followers who will never use the word cheese or whatever. I for one will be drinking a very tall glass of wine.
I understand your philosophy and I am on the same boat. But hey this a forum? Why not? Its not like im serous about this, OMG I MUST LET EVERYONE KNOW THAT THEY'VE BEEN USING THE WORD CHEESE WRONG !!!!
I am in this as much as you are in this to reply.
no. its not. Its just a discussion. and what makes your definition of cheese more accurate than liquidpedias? what makes anyone's defintion of cheese more accurate than liquidpedias?
We have to start somewhere.
We can either assume liquidpedia is right and talk from there or assume you and a certain amount of people are right and talk from there. Where do we start, I dont know. But frankly it doesn't matter. The point is out there I am sure.
and "highly snobby and elitist" wtf?
so everytime someone comes up with a discussion that many people go "hmm?"
its considered snobby and elitist? You should reflect on that.
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On July 23 2010 16:28 virgozero wrote:
and if you've read my entire post you'd see that cheese is a classification of a bunch of strats
there is no need for it. people will not come up with something they do not need. Do you see someone coming up with a word that defines watering plants and bringing them outside?
No, because that's a combination of two things, where as cheese is just one. It is a broad term meant to encompass a variety of strategies that share common ground. We do see people coming up with terms for going out into the wilderness and walking around. Hiking. This is a better comparison, (despite being random) as like cheese Hiking can encompass lots of things, you could walk up a mountain, you could walk along a river, whatever. Its the same broad strokes of an activity, with varying specifics.
On July 23 2010 16:28 virgozero wrote:
if you've read I told you specifically not to alter its definition. you must be illiterate or just skipped that part, im hoping on the latter.
Ok lets avoid insults. I thought it relevant to include that part, as changing the definition is the logical followthough to having a term which is thought to be pointless. I probably should have included my reasoning there.
On July 23 2010 16:28 virgozero wrote:Show nested quote +On your analysis of Cheesy, how can you not understand what Cheesy means?
It means that a strategy is partly reliant on not being scouted and is semi-all-in. except that is not what cheese means at all. So let me ask YOU how YOU cannot understand what Cheese means when its clearly stated in the liquidpedia dictionary.
Ah what? I do understand what Cheese means. Let me re-state what I was trying to say originally, a little clearer, as you didn't get it. Cheesy is similar to Cheese, however it is only partially all-in, and only partially relies on surprise. However it still tries to end the game early, and still tries to do so without serious opposition.
On July 23 2010 16:28 virgozero wrote:Show nested quote +
It doesn't insta-win, but neither is it an instant loss if it doesn't work. You can argue that that applies to all strategies, but its just more for cheesy strategies.
this doesn't make sense. this is like saying an apple can also be called a wapple because its more like a wapple anyways. I don't exactly know the name of that particular logical fallacy but its error is obvious.
Ok I'll admit that that was very badly worded. However your comparison doesn't really work either. What I'm saying is, firstly, see above for what exactly Cheesy is. If we then add onto this that Cheese either works, or loses the game for the person doing it (Since it is all-in), then Cheesy is almost all in. If it works, great, if it doesn't, then it doesn't mean a instant loss for the person trying it. It has some followthrough. The tradeoff is that a Cheesy strategy usually is less effective than a Cheese if it works perfectly.
Also i'll add in my edit to the previous post, since it gives a good example of what im talking about.
Oh, and on cheese being easy/noobish. Ok some people may misuse it this way, but for instance; (KotB tourny spoiler)+ Show Spoiler +
Tester did a 4warpgate rush against HuK to warp units into his main. It was clearly a cheese, but it wasn't noobish by any means. Intotherainbow also utilized some highly effective cheese (or semi cheese) and this provides a good example of semi cheese. He pushed with some marines/marauders and at the same time floated his proxy factory into his main to divert forces. Definitely 'cheesy', as it relies on the proxy fac not being scouted, and is a clear attempt to end the game early. It is also semi all-in, as if it was to fail it would put him at a rather severe disadvantage. However it is not clean cut cheese, as should it fail he hasn't lost the game completely. Hence cheesy.
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got my popcorn ready, now lets see how fast this turns into a rage fest.
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One mans cheese is another mans "strategic play" its all about perspective.
For example you get 5 pooled and go whine on the forums about cheesy D level zergs ruining your stats on iccup. Or you could go make a brag blog about how awesome you are 5 pooling everyone.
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=137731
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The fact that liquipedia defines the word should be a godsend for you. The fact that it is defined mean we can stick to a definition for it, even if it doesn't suit your needs (not sure how long you've been following PL or whatever but the term is definitely there and was coined by the Koreans) If its banned from liquipedia then it means whatever joe schmoe wants it to be. "You're going mass carriers? Cheesy" "Do I smell mech? Cheesy". Remember, acknowledging as negative only gives it more power. Just use the term and move on.
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On July 23 2010 16:39 Crahptacular wrote:
"Cheese" as a term is more specific than any of the suggestions you give, and as such isn't useless.
i said at the very beginning we are assuming liquidpedia is correct.
You're also plain wrong at parts (e.g. as mentioned, most 'standard' strategies don't rely at all on surprise).
Lol okay. So what exactly is the point of scouting? You won't be suprised right? everythings going to happen exactly as you wish. why send that lonely scv out there to scout, you know whats coming.
Personally I think most people have similar enough ideas of what "cheese" means so that when it's used, others understand what's being conveyed. Sure it's misused (a fast void ray with a stable transition planned out is not cheese, obviously), but you have to blame the people misusing the term, not the term itself.
again this is because you have a diff. defintion with cheese but like I said we're assuming liquidpedia is the dictionary.
On July 23 2010 16:40 RageOverdose wrote:
Sorry, but your point is basically that we have no need for the word. Well, that's not good enough for me.
I am sorry I'll make sure the next time I post it will be good enough for you.
A cheese build is one that is highly risky. No, your goal isn't to surprise an enemy in a strategy game, it is to have the better strategy and tactics. Some of these can be surprising, but surprising is something you don't expect. Sure, I can go for a Robo or Council, neither are unexpected for a Protoss to do. Typically, you don't expect me to plant a Pylon in some tactically genius location and rush Warpgates.
again your coming up with your own defintion. I've said, were following liquidpedia. Why choose your defintion over Crahptacular's? (the above poster)
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On July 23 2010 16:18 virgozero wrote:
Its either "an all-in strategy that relies on surprise to win a game early without serious resistance" or its not. How can a strategy be "kinda cheesey". "kinda cheesy" = relatively high risk, with relatively low chance of transitioning out of it, if it doesn't work.
The term depends a lot on the metagame, or the current trends of the game. For example, on the Asia server people play a lot more cheesy when players from other servers look at it, but they actually pull through it, often even if it fails - so, in their current trends of the game, the risk of the same strat is not that high. Hence, on their server the same thing is not cheese.
Cheese is fine, but is looked a little down upon, because it is usually with lower winning percentage than a more macro-oriented game, and it allows players with inferior experience/mechanics to sometimes beat better players. "Better" here means - in case of a large league or public ladder, where all games are known, the players who rank the highest. Because then if someone takes too many risks, it will cost them on the long run (and people may even learn about them and counter their cheeses), and they will not have as good ranking as someone who uses solid well polished long-term builds.
Nevertheless it's part of the game, just because if one would only play macro and never cheese, then they would be too predictable and get losing to cheese. So the really good player has to be able to do both, but usually the best players do not over-cheese (cannot afford such low %). Hope that helps.
I'd say that cheese has better application in tournament schemes than public league schemes. Because in direct elimination the solid macro players have high chance of being sniped along the way by at least one right cheese (risk), well suited for ruining their strat. While eventually one of all the "cheesers" (the risk-oriented players) is more likely to reach the final and win. Look at it as a multi-tournament strategy: if you play 10 tournaments with very risky plays, at least a couple of times you will get extraordinarily lucky streaks and win a couple of tournaments. While if you play the strat which would total the highest winning % of this amount of games, you still may end up without winning any tournament. But in a league, especially a public league, playing so risky will not get you good enough ranking.
Since leagues are usually the most respected, the risky play is not as highly regarded as the more boring solid play. However the risky players will be more likely to win tournaments, and so the public often loves those players, even if they perform worse in large leagues. Same principles apply to other sports and games, so I guess this wall of text should be pretty clear. 
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Cheese (in a negative sense) is just a word used by people that want to play the game in a certain way.
There is no wrong way to win.
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Fucking hell, can we not get away from all of these pointless semantics arguments? Go read a book or go on a Wiki-spree on Linguistics and you'll quickly learn that it doesn't really matter what people call something. It's the context that is important, not the terminology- especially in an informal setting like a video game forum.
Language (and just about everything else outside of mathematics) is subjective, and none more so than the English language. Dictionaries, encyclopedias, and thesauruses report the current usage of words, they do not dictate it. This is why we have new editions every X number of years.
At the moment, the definition of Cheese as used with SC2 seems to be anything unorthodox or unexpected. Something outside of the bounds of (are you ready for this?) the metagame. At any given time, any strategy could shift from Cheese to Standard and hardly anyone would even notice.
Hell, the only time I get angry at the usage of the word is when people use it as an excuse for why they lost, or when people bitch about the usage of the word!
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Nowadays, a "cheesy strategy" is just something that does not promote a long macro game. It's obviously not true, but it's just how the term has become popularized. It seems like people called anything that's not a FE in PvZ a "cheesy strategy", but obviously, it's just a deviation from the "standard build".
Basically, if it ain't standard, it's some kind of cheese.
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Wow I'd just like to say virgozero you are mean. Everyone is trying to explain to you that they still wish to have the word cheese in their vocabulary and you lash out like a wolf cornered by hunters.
Let me give you another example. The word "epic" is the perfect example of this particular situation. Now I do not like this word. Do I use it? Sure I use it plenty of times in my daily vocabulary. Now the reason I do not like this word is not because I dislike the sound or its meaning. I dislike this word because it is overused and often in cases where I do not approve. This is exactly your argument against the word cheese. You believe it is overused and in some cases where people use it, you do not agree. Because I dislike the word epic, do I go around saying to people you should not use the word because it is used so incorrectly all the time? No I do not. Do I go around telling people to stop using the word because there are other suitable replacements? No I do not. It is a word that people have come to know and to accept. This is the word cheese. Sure, cheese can have a negative connotation as I've pointed out in my last post, but it is also a positive thing in some cases. Take it how you will.
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On July 23 2010 16:43 virgozero wrote:
and "highly snobby and elitist" wtf?
so everytime someone comes up with a discussion that many people go "hmm?"
its considered snobby and elitist? You should reflect on that.
LOLLLLL
Okay man, I wasn't actually going to respond to this thread at all, but this response literally made me laugh out loud. Literally.
You want to know why this thread is snobby and elitist? Here's a linguistics lesson for you.
Definition: Elitism
Elitism is the belief or attitude that some individuals, who supposedly form an elite — a select group of people with, intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes — are those whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight
Definition: Snobby
A snob is someone who adopts the worldview of snobbery — that some people are inherently inferior to him or her for any one of a variety of reasons, including real or supposed intellect, wealth, education, ancestry, taste, beauty, et cetera. Often, the form of snobbery reflects the snob's personal attributes. For example, a common snobbery of the affluent is the belief that wealth is either the cause or result of superiority, or both, and a common snobbery of the physically attractive is that beauty is paramount.
These threads are completely ridiculous because they postulate that there's a superior way to speak which we should all adopt. You're defending a highly logical definition of language, and that's fine.
However you (and many others) completely neglect the social aspect of language, which is driven by intent and delivering meaning between different people. As it stands, cheese does have a very specific connotation in the community. That connotation is as you mentioned negative and underhanded.
Because you decide to entirely ignore the social aspect of language and instead try to abolish this word based on your presumed superior logical arguments, I call you both snobby and elitist (and rightfully so).
I'm done with this thread. I cannot believe I spent five minutes of my life writing this post up. Enjoy your completely pointless discussion, and I hope it ends in the way you want it to. If you can't see why you're being completely ridiculous then we have nothing more to talk about.
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On July 23 2010 16:44 TheOracle wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 16:28 virgozero wrote:
and if you've read my entire post you'd see that cheese is a classification of a bunch of strats
there is no need for it. people will not come up with something they do not need. Do you see someone coming up with a word that defines watering plants and bringing them outside?
No, because that's a combination of two things, where as cheese is just one. It is a broad term meant to encompass a variety of strategies that share common ground. We do see people coming up with terms for going out into the wilderness and walking around. Hiking. This is a better comparison, (despite being random) as like cheese Hiking can encompass lots of things, you could walk up a mountain, you could walk along a river, whatever. Its the same broad strokes of an activity, with varying specifics.
Okay I'll admit that is a horrible example.
On July 23 2010 16:28 virgozero wrote:
if you've read I told you specifically not to alter its definition. you must be illiterate or just skipped that part, im hoping on the latter.
Ok lets avoid insults. I thought it relevant to include that part, as changing the definition is the logical followthough to having a term which is thought to be pointless. I probably should have included my reasoning there. [/quote]
so your saying we should follow your reasoning to what cheese should be. This is weird because if you have a completely different definition then why don't you use use a completely different word altogether? You can call yours MILK.
On July 23 2010 16:28 virgozero wrote:Show nested quote +On your analysis of Cheesy, how can you not understand what Cheesy means?
It means that a strategy is partly reliant on not being scouted and is semi-all-in. except that is not what cheese means at all. So let me ask YOU how YOU cannot understand what Cheese means when its clearly stated in the liquidpedia dictionary.
Ah what? I do understand what Cheese means. Let me re-state what I was trying to say originally, a little clearer, as you didn't get it. Cheesy is similar to Cheese, however it is only partially all-in, and only partially relies on surprise. However it still tries to end the game early, and still tries to do so without serious opposition.
Please example the following:
Partially all-in
Partially relies on suprise
an all-in is called an all-in because its guess what !!??!?! ALL-IN ?
so plesae tell me how something can be"partially" all-in.
Its like saying someone is partially drinking water.
Your either DRINKING water OR YOUR NOT. How can something be cheesey. Its either a cheese or its not.
Its like saying something is Fastey. Its either fast or its not theres no "fastey".
On July 23 2010 16:28 virgozero wrote:Show nested quote +
It doesn't insta-win, but neither is it an instant loss if it doesn't work. You can argue that that applies to all strategies, but its just more for cheesy strategies.
this doesn't make sense. this is like saying an apple can also be called a wapple because its more like a wapple anyways. I don't exactly know the name of that particular logical fallacy but its error is obvious.
Ok I'll admit that that was very badly worded. However your comparison doesn't really work either. What I'm saying is, firstly, see above for what exactly Cheesy is. If we then add onto this that Cheese either works, or loses the game for the person doing it (Since it is all-in), then Cheesy is almost all in. [/quote]
again.. wtf is "almost all-in" if its almost-all in meaning its not all-in... THEN JUST SAY ITS NOT ALL-IN. Aka if its not cheese but its almost like a cheese then just say ITS NOT CHEESE.
Also i'll add in my edit to the previous post, since it gives a good example of what im talking about. Oh, and on cheese being easy/noobish. Ok some people may misuse it this way, but for instance; (KotB tourny spoiler) + Show Spoiler +
Tester did a 4warpgate rush against HuK to warp units into his main. It was clearly a cheese, but it wasn't noobish by any means.
it was clearly a cheese?
1.) it wasn't all in, if the guy kills the pylon.. boohoo he lost a pylon......
2.) it wasnt early
Intotherainbow also utilized some highly effective cheese (or semi cheese)
agian wtf is semi-cheese. Its either cheese or its not -.-
and this provides a good example of semi cheese. He pushed with some marines/marauders and at the same time floated his proxy factory into his main to divert forces. Definitely 'cheesy', as it relies on the proxy fac not being scouted, and is a clear attempt to end the game early.
1.) it wasn't all in
2.) it wasnt early
so nope
It is also semi all-in,
aka not all-in -.-
as if it was to fail it would put him at a rather severe disadvantage.
ffsakes your overthinking things. If you engange in a battle and you loose NO SHIT YOUR AT A DISADVANTAGE -.-
However it is not clean cut cheese, as should it fail he hasn't lost the game completely. Hence cheesy.
hence this word is stupid and useless and fabricated upon other meaningless terms.
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I will join you in not referring to cats as cats because after all there is no such thing as a cat.
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Standard strategies do not rely on surprise. Sure, if I go 3 warpgate expand I'd prefer it if my opponent didn't know that, but even if he does, I'm still perfectly able to win the game. If however I go for a baneling bust against terran, my strategy relies entirely on not being scouted, because if the terran sees it in time, he will have an unbustable wall and I might as well type out.
In standard strategies, not being scouted is a nice thing to have, in cheese strategies, its absolutely essential.
Also, spoiling a game that was streamed a few hours ago? Wtf? You know, people in Europe who weren't up last night at 4 am didn't have a chance to see those games yet.
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If you win you win, if you lose you can call it whatever you want to console yourself, but that doesn't change a thing within the game.
The term is pretty silly, but people use it for the same reason they use any of the other terms: because it's part of the community's jargon. I don't think labels will change anyone's gameplay. Any effective strategy will be used no matter how many people complain it's "unfair" or "bm."
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
I wanted to close this thread because I think it is a stupid fad right now to "call out" every overly used term in SC2 but there was so much damn effort and people seem to want to talk about this terminology.
You are safe for now
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On July 23 2010 16:51 virgozero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 16:39 Crahptacular wrote:
"Cheese" as a term is more specific than any of the suggestions you give, and as such isn't useless.
i said at the very beginning we are assuming liquidpedia is correct. Show nested quote +You're also plain wrong at parts (e.g. as mentioned, most 'standard' strategies don't rely at all on surprise). Lol okay. So what exactly is the point of scouting? You won't be suprised right? everythings going to happen exactly as you wish. why send that lonely scv out there to scout, you know whats coming. Show nested quote +
Personally I think most people have similar enough ideas of what "cheese" means so that when it's used, others understand what's being conveyed. Sure it's misused (a fast void ray with a stable transition planned out is not cheese, obviously), but you have to blame the people misusing the term, not the term itself.
again this is because you have a diff. defintion with cheese but like I said we're assuming liquidpedia is the dictionary.
You misunderstood every part of my post you quoted.
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I do think it's overused but we can't remove it since the word is definitely practical.
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Oh boy another thread about the cheese. This should be moved to blog.
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On July 23 2010 17:01 FC.Strike wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 16:43 virgozero wrote:
and "highly snobby and elitist" wtf?
so everytime someone comes up with a discussion that many people go "hmm?"
its considered snobby and elitist? You should reflect on that. LOLLLLL Okay man, I wasn't actually going to respond to this thread at all, but this response literally made me laugh out loud. Literally.
really O_o..
You want to know why this thread is snobby and elitist? Here's a linguistics lesson for you.
sweet how much do you charge an hour? whats your degree? are you famous?
AKA GET TO THE F-ING POINT AND STOP SAYING OFFTOPIC/USELESS STUFF
-.-
Definition: Elitism
Elitism is the belief or attitude that some individuals, who supposedly form an elite — a select group of people with, intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes — are those whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight
and where in my post does it demonstrate any of this lol?
Definition: Snobby
A snob is someone who adopts the worldview of snobbery — that some people are inherently inferior to him or her for any one of a variety of reasons, including real or supposed intellect, wealth, education, ancestry, taste, beauty, et cetera. Often, the form of snobbery reflects the snob's personal attributes. For example, a common snobbery of the affluent is the belief that wealth is either the cause or result of superiority, or both, and a common snobbery of the physically attractive is that beauty is paramount.
oh so me saying some people are dumb = snobby?
Great because snobby is EXACTLY what I am. i think loads of people are dumb. in fact I think every single person is relatively dumb.
These threads are completely ridiculous because they postulate that there's a superior way to speak which we should all adopt. You're defending a highly logical definition of language, and that's fine.
lol wut? I thought we were talking about cheese with the english language?
However you (and many others) completely neglect the social aspect of language, which is driven by intent and delivering meaning between different people. As it stands, cheese does have a very specific connotation in the community. That connotation is as you mentioned negative and underhanded.
so your saying the liquidpedia is wrong? What makes your definition more "right" then person XYZ ?
Because you decide to entirely ignore the social aspect of language and instead try to abolish this word based on your presumed superior logical arguments, I call you both snobby and elitist (and rightfully so).
so thats like saying because 10 people one day decided to call cows horses , despite what the dictionary says, cows are now called horses. Wohoo !! Hey you disagree? GOD YOU MUST BE A SNOBBY ELITIST !
I'm done with this thread. I cannot believe I spent five minutes of my life writing this post up. Enjoy your completely pointless discussion, and I hope it ends in the way you want it to. If you can't see why you're being completely ridiculous then we have nothing more to talk about.
thanks for the info bro we totally cared.
and if you bothered to read
So who else wishes to eliminate this term?
(keeping in mind that it will not be but this is a discussion forum meant for discussion)
there I bolded it for.
easier on the eye i hope.
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On July 23 2010 17:10 nttea wrote:
I do think it's overused but we can't remove it since the word is definitely practical.
im arguing its not though.
cause look.
if a strategy is all-in, just call it all-in.
if a strategy is cannon-rush, just call it cannon-rush
if a strategy was proxy gate, just cal it proxy gate.
Why add another classification for nothing?
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Lots of threads these days with folks thinking they have a better take on modern SC vernacular. They don't.
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People gotta complain about something, if you take that away they will find something else. Clearly there's nothing wrong with "cheese" it's just another way to play. I always believed that since everyone is different there is no "standard" and you play to your own standard. Therefore, if you are a macro player, you go with macro builds. Similarly, if you are a micro player, you should do intricate harass/rush plays to suit your micro skills. If everyone played this non existent "standard", the person with the best play style to suit what became that "standard" will always have the edge. It's not that their mechanics are better, it's just that that play style has been adopted as acceptable so others are trying to mimic a style that doesn't match themselves and thus playing at a handicap.
-Play how you want, no style is wrong and the winner is generally the better player  [Over a period of games though]
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Cheese kinda sucks because if it fails, it's a complete disappointment for the audience outside of some epic micro battles. Either way, you usually feel cheated from an epic game.
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I just re-read the OP and have come to the conclusion that what you are arguing against is NOT the term Cheese. You are arguing against the Human Condition. People are GOING be stupid. They are going to believe what they are told without looking in to it themselves. They are going to misunderstand things. They are going to mislabel things. They are going to spread misinformation. They are going to call everything that beats them cheesy and are going to call all of their own cheese creative or clever.
You're trying to treat a symptom instead of the disease. I wish the problem were that simple, but until we start teaching Critical Thinking and Rationality in schools, the problem isn't going to go away.
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On July 23 2010 17:01 Zerksys wrote:
Wow I'd just like to say virgozero you are mean. Everyone is trying to explain to you that they still wish to have the word cheese in their vocabulary and you lash out like a wolf cornered by hunters.
WTF? how am i mean >.> I just wanted to discuss and I offered my opinion and am trying my best to help people realize my reasoning.
Let me give you another example. The word "epic" is the perfect example of this particular situation. Now I do not like this word. Do I use it? Sure I use it plenty of times in my daily vocabulary. Now the reason I do not like this word is not because I dislike the sound or its meaning. I dislike this word because it is overused and often in cases where I do not approve. This is exactly your argument against the word cheese.
no actually. my argument is that cheese is not needed. where as an epic game is needed.
how else are you going to say that game was epic?? i mean its.. epic lol you cant sub another word.
if a came was cannon rushed then why not just say cannon rush.
You believe it is overused and in some cases where people use it, you do not agree. Because I dislike the word epic, do I go around saying to people you should not use the word because it is used so incorrectly all the time? No I do not. Do I go around telling people to stop using the word because there are other suitable replacements? No I do not. It is a word that people have come to know and to accept. This is the word cheese. Sure, cheese can have a negative connotation as I've pointed out in my last post, but it is also a positive thing in some cases. Take it how you will.
so i am not allowed to tell people my opinions? wtfs the point of this forum?
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On July 23 2010 17:12 sk` wrote:
Lots of threads these days with folks thinking they have a better take on modern SC vernacular. They don't.
Hi ! your so smart, are you willing to enlighten us?
honestly if you have something to say, SAY IT. Dont give this "snobby elitism" bs
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On July 23 2010 17:07 Drunken.Jedi wrote:
Standard strategies do not rely on surprise. Sure, if I go 3 warpgate expand I'd prefer it if my opponent didn't know that, but even if he does, I'm still perfectly able to win the game. If however I go for a baneling bust against terran, my strategy relies entirely on not being scouted, because if the terran sees it in time, he will have an unbustable wall and I might as well type out.
In standard strategies, not being scouted is a nice thing to have, in cheese strategies, its absolutely essential.
Also, spoiling a game that was streamed a few hours ago? Wtf? You know, people in Europe who weren't up last night at 4 am didn't have a chance to see those games yet.
Okay, now we're running into trouble, the whole point of the strategy game is to conceal your build, even if you play standard... I don't get what you guys have done to your brains, but everything is BEST with surprise, your game SHOULD rely on your surprise, people just watch replays and copy without thinking. Even if you play as "standard/safe" as you guys are, you should give the impression you are doing an all in so they waste thoughts on defending, and resources on things they might not need.
Play every game the same, they shouldn't know if you are all-in or not.
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No, I don't want it to be removed and I don't even cheese ever.
It's just somthing extra for the game. It's fun
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Cheese is just slang for a stupid gimmicky strategy that usually doesn't take much skill at all to pull off.
i.e. photon rushing... any 5 year old can pull this off as long as he doesn't get scouted. It's a really stupid strategy that takes little to no skill but can be an easy win if you pull it off right.
wiktionary definition: (informal) of a solution to a problem, inelegant, showing no skill
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Agreed, seriously. Anytime someone wins and they don't like it they just scream cheese.
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just a friendly sign.
there is no cheese level (at least not in 1v1; there are situations in 2v2, 3v3 or 4v4 where my mouth tends to form the word cheese (4 terran reaper rush using the high ground in the base) though it might not be cheese.
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Virgozero take a psychology class some time. The reason that he said you were snobby and elitist was because you are doing exactly what the elite class in the past would do. They would promote the way in which they speak as "proper" in order to assert their superiority over other groups who spoke the same language. Even today this is seen in such places as the United States with words such as "ain't" and "y'all" which are deemed improper ways to contract the words "are not" and "you all." Slang or vernacular as you would be taught in a psychology class is one of the ways the counterculture rebels against the elitists. Basically in this situation you are the elitist trying to say that certain words we use are not proper and there are other replacements for it.
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On July 23 2010 17:12 virgozero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 17:10 nttea wrote:
I do think it's overused but we can't remove it since the word is definitely practical. im arguing its not though. cause look. if a strategy is all-in, just call it all-in. if a strategy is cannon-rush, just call it cannon-rush if a strategy was proxy gate, just cal it proxy gate. Why add another classification for nothing?
This is the English Language dude... We have entire books dedicated to different words with the same meanings, and most of our words have multiple meanings.
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On July 23 2010 17:18 Blackhawk13 wrote:
Cheese is just slang for a stupid gimmicky strategy that usually doesn't take much skill at all to pull off.
i.e. photon rushing... any 5 year old can pull this off as long as he doesn't get scouted. It's a really stupid strategy that takes little to no skill but can be an easy win if you pull it off right.
^ example of why we should elminate the term. because people like blackhawk (no offense bro your not the only one ! and its easy to jump on the bandwagon + it may not be entirely your fault, just the community)
please elaborate on the "stupid strategy" part. And not to mention most people cannot do a photon rush effectively.
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I agree with u, but why make such a big deal out of a word?
So what if people think its "cheese"? let them think, let them be naieve!
If it works it works, i won with these good strategies alot to, and i defended from them also. Its just another aspect that will make the game more fun and unpredictable.
I dont think the word cheese should be understood as a negative thing, and ofcourse you will always have people who see it negative but only because they lose to them and dont know how to defend against them yet.
Like i said, i agree with u. but its just a word, its not a big deal.
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personally I can't define 'cheese' but I know it when I see it. The term's subjective -- baddies call anything besides massing an army and throwing it in a giant ball against theirs in mid "cheese". It becomes an excuse for losing. The game of starcraft (1 and 2) is deep and profound and when your opponent beats you then you need to be man enough to take a loss.
The reality is 'cheese' is another word for strategy. If someone somehow manages to pull off some kind of all in cannon rush on you and you can't defend it then frankly you have been out-strategized.
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On July 23 2010 17:20 Zerksys wrote:
Virgozero take a psychology class some time. The reason that he said you were snobby and elitist was because you are doing exactly what the elite class in the past would do. They would promote the way in which they speak as "proper" in order to assert their superiority over other groups who spoke the same language.
wait wtf? so I told someone in here that the way they spoke was "in proper" huh???
quote me pls?
Even today this is seen in such places as the United States with words such as "ain't" and "y'all" which are deemed improper ways to contract the words "are not" and "you all." Slang or vernacular as you would be taught in a psychology class is one of the ways the counterculture rebels against the elitists. Basically in this situation you are the elitist trying to say that certain words we use are not proper and there are other replacements for it.
I am saying that a certain word is useless and I'd suggest it not be used.
thats all. i am not into this "proper" or not bs.
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the term cheese is from a stinky strat. its just a word to desribe a bm nonstanderd opening. You can call it w/e u like but its still called cheese in my books. =D
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OKAY EVERy1 THATS TELLING ME TO CALM DOWN, OR WHY BE SO SERIOUS ETC ETC
I AM NOT ! This is a DISCUSSION THREAD >.< ! Its meant for discussing. I am sorry that my english sux and I unable to write in a more "calmly mood" but this is all I can manage.
Thanks !
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On July 23 2010 17:16 virgozero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 17:01 Zerksys wrote:
Wow I'd just like to say virgozero you are mean. Everyone is trying to explain to you that they still wish to have the word cheese in their vocabulary and you lash out like a wolf cornered by hunters. WTF? how am i mean >.> I just wanted to discuss and I offered my opinion and am trying my best to help people realize my reasoning. Show nested quote +
Let me give you another example. The word "epic" is the perfect example of this particular situation. Now I do not like this word. Do I use it? Sure I use it plenty of times in my daily vocabulary. Now the reason I do not like this word is not because I dislike the sound or its meaning. I dislike this word because it is overused and often in cases where I do not approve. This is exactly your argument against the word cheese.
no actually. my argument is that cheese is not needed. where as an epic game is needed. how else are you going to say that game was epic?? i mean its.. epic lol you cant sub another word. if a came was cannon rushed then why not just say cannon rush. Show nested quote +
You believe it is overused and in some cases where people use it, you do not agree. Because I dislike the word epic, do I go around saying to people you should not use the word because it is used so incorrectly all the time? No I do not. Do I go around telling people to stop using the word because there are other suitable replacements? No I do not. It is a word that people have come to know and to accept. This is the word cheese. Sure, cheese can have a negative connotation as I've pointed out in my last post, but it is also a positive thing in some cases. Take it how you will.
so i am not allowed to tell people my opinions? wtfs the point of this forum?
It's the way you lash out at people that makes it seem as if you're mean. You might not be trying to do so, but some of the things you are saying to other people on this thread were very insulting such as calling some of us illiterate because we failed to understand the underlying meaning of your post.
There are plenty of suitable replacements for the word epic. Awesome, cool, gnarly, groovy, the bees knees. I'm just using an example to illustrate that there are words to replace others, but it doesn't mean we stop using them.
Yes it is your opinion I apologize for saying that you shouldn't tell people. I agree that it is overused and often misused by the way.
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term has been used for years and years and years. it has a meaning and just because its sometimes overused doesnt mean it should go away.
i dont see the problem in any way and actually think your OP is one of the worst threads in the recent time that got more then 2 pages.
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On July 23 2010 17:17 virgozero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 17:12 sk` wrote:
Lots of threads these days with folks thinking they have a better take on modern SC vernacular. They don't. Hi ! your so smart, are you willing to enlighten us?honestly if you have something to say, SAY IT. Dont give this "snobby elitism" bs
A bad cause requires many words.
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On July 23 2010 17:27 Zerksys wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 17:16 virgozero wrote:On July 23 2010 17:01 Zerksys wrote:
Wow I'd just like to say virgozero you are mean. Everyone is trying to explain to you that they still wish to have the word cheese in their vocabulary and you lash out like a wolf cornered by hunters. WTF? how am i mean >.> I just wanted to discuss and I offered my opinion and am trying my best to help people realize my reasoning.
Let me give you another example. The word "epic" is the perfect example of this particular situation. Now I do not like this word. Do I use it? Sure I use it plenty of times in my daily vocabulary. Now the reason I do not like this word is not because I dislike the sound or its meaning. I dislike this word because it is overused and often in cases where I do not approve. This is exactly your argument against the word cheese.
no actually. my argument is that cheese is not needed. where as an epic game is needed. how else are you going to say that game was epic?? i mean its.. epic lol you cant sub another word. if a came was cannon rushed then why not just say cannon rush.
You believe it is overused and in some cases where people use it, you do not agree. Because I dislike the word epic, do I go around saying to people you should not use the word because it is used so incorrectly all the time? No I do not. Do I go around telling people to stop using the word because there are other suitable replacements? No I do not. It is a word that people have come to know and to accept. This is the word cheese. Sure, cheese can have a negative connotation as I've pointed out in my last post, but it is also a positive thing in some cases. Take it how you will.
so i am not allowed to tell people my opinions? wtfs the point of this forum? It's the way you lash out at people that makes it seem as if you're mean.
when people respond to me meanly I do the same. Just so were talking on the same level.
when people don't read and respond with offotpic/non sense, i will make some sarcastic jokes or wut not about them.
Yes it is your opinion I apologize for saying that you shouldn't tell people. I agree that it is overused and often misused by the way.
<3 !
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On July 23 2010 17:28 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
term has been used for years and years and years. it has a meaning and just because its sometimes overused doesnt mean it should go away.
i dont see the problem in any way and actually think your OP is one of the worst threads in the recent time that got more then 2 pages.
the problem?
1.) its useless, why have a useless word?
2.) it promotes people calling other people strategies inadequate by using the term cheese.
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Most people probably can't do a photo cannon rush effectively anymore because its not a new thing, that was just an example. Back when it first came out it probably worked for the first 50 times that someone did it.
But anyways.... I don't know why you are getting so riled up over a word. I just told you the meaning of it, I didn't invent it, that's just what it means.
People who get beat by a really stupid strategy that anyone could pull off are generally upset and label it as "cheese". People also tend to agree that these types of strategies make for very boring games to watch, or play.
However, you're right in that a lot of these people are just angry over losing. And you're right that anything you can do in the game without cheating is a legitimate strategy and fair game.
I edited this into my last post but here it is again:
Wikitionary definition of "Cheesy"
4. (informal) of a solution to a problem, inelegant, showing no skill
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cheesy
Edit: I also think that you're right that the term is being way overused nowadays. But I don't think it will be going away anytime soon.
Double Edit: I guess I should replace the term "stupid strategy" with "no skill strategy" if i want to be consistent. I suppose it isn't "stupid" if it works.
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Honestly Virgozero, I'm this close to giving up on this, not because you are making a logical argument that I'll be bowing to, but because you keep ignoring what I'm saying. Here's what's getting me. Firstly you are saying that my example of Cheese by intotherainbow is not cheese because it isn't 'early' enough, yet you yourself began the argument by saying that we could draw a line about what consisted early/not early. Yet what are you doing? Drawing a line. Funny how that works, isn't it.
I see the problem here though. You are dealing in absolutes, and obviously don't like the concept of non-absolutes. You said that 'fastey' had no meaning. Yet there is. I'll use a text graphic to demonstrate. Lets take fast to be faster than normal. Using absolutes we get;
Normal-Fast
Yet in the real world this doesn't exist, as absolutes are hard to find. Here is how 'Normal' and 'Fast' exist in the real world.
Normal ------------------------------------------- Fast
See in reality there's a whole slew of variations to 'fast', some of which lie between normal and fast. 'Fastey' is similar to 'Fastish' which I have actually used, when something wasn't 'Fast', nor was it 'Normal' speed. It may be something like thus;
Normal ------------------ Fastey ------------- Fast
A similar situation occurs when using rough numbers. Numbers are absolute, but sometimes we need non-absolutes. We use words like 'Some', 'Lots', 'A few' etc. We may be told to make 'Some' Zealots, 'A couple' of Zealots, and many more variations. These are not absolutes, but have a relation to each other. As shown;
None-----A Couple------Some-------Lots
And thus we arrive back at Cheesy. Using the same format;
Normal Strategy-----------Cheesy Strategy-------------A Cheese Strategy
So you see it lies somewhere between Normal strats and Cheese strats, exhibiting characteristics of both, while being neither. In maths we could say it Cheesy Tends Towards Cheese, if maths is your thing rather than english.
However to respond to some individual points you made.
it was clearly a cheese?
1.) it wasn't all in, if the guy kills the pylon.. boohoo he lost a pylon......
2.) it wasnt early
For the early part see above.
But when you have put 0 into gas, and have built 5-6 pylons in the other players main, then have warped units directly there, it is an all in, at least at that level of play. Unless you do significant damage (in which case the cheesy play has succeeded, and therefore we ignore this option), you are down at least 500 minerals for the pylons, as well as being supply blocked, as well as whatever minerals lost for the units. Therefore it is Cheesy play. It doesn't lose him the game outright if it fails (He still has 4 warpgates and quite a few probes at his main), but it certainly isn't a standard normal attack as it has significantly MORE risk than just losing a battle (Which you compared it to later in your post)
But to summarize. You said there is no Cheesy as there is no Fastey. I say there is, as humans find it very difficult to deal in absolutes. This was the premise for your original post I realize. You want there to be absolute definitions for Cheese, where infact any absolutes are arbitrary, as SC2 is a dynamic and evolving game.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
mixed feelings about this one. i do agree that a lot of people are misusing the term but that doesnt mean it has to disappear all together. give it 6 months and lets see where the community takes the definition.
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On July 23 2010 16:34 virgozero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 16:30 Railz wrote:and if you've read my entire post you'd see that cheese is a classification of a bunch of strats
there is no need for it. people will not come up with something they do not need. Do you see someone coming up with a word that defines watering plants and bringing them outside?
Yes, its called gardening. In fact, gardening "is a classification of bunch of strategies" in which to grow plants, so...Whats your point? no its not called gardening. gardening consists on a variety of actions not specifically watering plants and bringing them outside. You are obviously missing the point to where your just trying to demote this argument by atking my horrible on-the-go examples, so I would kindly suggest you to either re-read this topic another day when your feeling a bit more open minded or just leave the discussion. that again is my "suggestion"
BRO I DNOt think u know what gardening is. u water the motherfucking plants, and bring themoutside.
also, keep in mind that gardening inviolves both teh actions he stated.
peace. this entire thread is pointless.
semantics about cheese? who cares. if u dont like the term dont use it. stop fucking arguing semantics.....should have better ways to use ur time I AM DISSAPOINT OP.
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Lets just ban free thinking as well , pull some cables through our asses and been robot happy woot.
ps i love the - i cant do it , you shouldnt been doing it - mentality .
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we know what it means basically.
sometimes people are a little too liberal with the term, but so what?
everybody pretty much knows what it means.
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On July 23 2010 17:30 virgozero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 17:28 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
term has been used for years and years and years. it has a meaning and just because its sometimes overused doesnt mean it should go away.
i dont see the problem in any way and actually think your OP is one of the worst threads in the recent time that got more then 2 pages. the problem? 1.) its useless, why have a useless word? 2.) it promotes people calling other people strategies inadequate by using the term cheese.
1. why is it useless? if it was useless why is it used often since 10+ years? maybe you dont know mr "i registered may 2010 and now tell evryone which words to use about the game!" but its not some weird new term.
2. so if those guys would call a strat "easy noobluckshit strat!" or whatever instead of "cheese" it would be better?
and i still dont see a "problem". i just see a guy who doesnt like one thing and makes a huge buzz out of it.
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I'd like to offer a couple thoughts here:
What defines a "cheese" strategy isn't any objective description but instead the feeling of frustration on the receiving end that it's qualitatively unfair. "If he'd played fairly I would have beaten him."
All the other definitions are chasing what makes experienced players feel that a strategy is unfair.
As for arguing that "we don't need the term," well, as long as people use it, we're stuck with it.
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I agree that the term is used too much but it certainly is not useless,if you want to use a term that includes all of cannon rushes or proxy gating or 7pooling or anything you need to have a word and Cheese is that.
The big problem with the word Cheese is since there is a big difference in skill level and in the strategic view of the game among the players there cant be a concensus to which strategy is Cheese or isnt.
So ultimately IMO the word Cheese has as much power as the Person's knowledge of the game,skill level and strategic mind using it.
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I too wish for this word (that people apply to anything that is not a standard build) to be forgotten.
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On July 23 2010 17:34 TheOracle wrote:
Honestly Virgozero, I'm this close to giving up on this, not because you are making a logical argument that I'll be bowing to, but because you keep ignoring what I'm saying.
I am not but your simply making all you arguments based off of YOUR definition for cheese when I said lets stick to the liquidpedia definiton of cheese. You have yet to explain why we should follow your definition over some other guys definition.
Here's what's getting me. Firstly you are saying that my example of Cheese by intotherainbow is not cheese because it isn't 'early' enough, yet you yourself began the argument by saying that we could draw a line about what consisted early/not early. Yet what are you doing? Drawing a line. Funny how that works, isn't it.
funny how you misread, isn't it? I said "where do we draw the line, which shows the weakness of the definition and the weakness of the term all together"
I see the problem here though. You are dealing in absolutes, and obviously don't like the concept of non-absolutes. You said that 'fastey' had no meaning. Yet there is. I'll use a text graphic to demonstrate. Lets take fast to be faster than normal. Using absolutes we get;
Normal-Fast
Yet in the real world this doesn't exist, as absolutes are hard to find. Here is how 'Normal' and 'Fast' exist in the real world.
Normal ------------------------------------------- Fast
See in reality there's a whole slew of variations to 'fast', some of which lie between normal and fast. 'Fastey' is similar to 'Fastish' which I have actually used, when something wasn't 'Fast', nor was it 'Normal' speed. It may be something like thus;
Normal ------------------ Fastey ------------- Fast
Sigh do I really have to do this >.>
Normal : normal
Fast : fast
Between normal and fast : BETWEEN NORMAL AND FAST *gasp*
fastey suggests that something is "partially" fast. When its not.
If you say something is "partially fast" then you are assuming that
Normal ------------------------------------------ FAST
the entire underlined part is considered fast when its not
the only part that is considered fast is
Normal ------------------------------------------- FAST
when something is partially fast it means it CONTAINS "fast". But if that speed is not yet fast how can it contain fast?
Get what I am saying?
A similar situation occurs when using rough numbers. Numbers are absolute, but sometimes we need non-absolutes. We use words like 'Some', 'Lots', 'A few' etc. We may be told to make 'Some' Zealots, 'A couple' of Zealots, and many more variations. These are not absolutes, but have a relation to each other. As shown;
None-----A Couple------Some-------Lots
And thus we arrive back at Cheesy. Using the same format;
Normal Strategy-----------Cheesy Strategy-------------A Cheese Strategy
very different.
The different beetween None and Lots is that Lots is quite simply more Nones.
Where is a Cheese Strategy is a term completely independant.
What your actually refering to is
Normal Strategy----------Risky strategy-------------High risk strategy
Cheese does not work like that. Cheese is cheese firmly defined by liquidpedia.
But when you have put 0 into gas, and have built 5-6 pylons in the other players main, then have warped units directly there, it is an all in, at least at that level of play. Unless you do significant damage (in which case the cheesy play has succeeded, and therefore we ignore this option), you are down at least 500 minerals for the pylons, as well as being supply blocked, as well as whatever minerals lost for the units. Therefore it is Cheesy play. It doesn't lose him the game outright if it fails (He still has 4 warpgates and quite a few probes at his main), but it certainly isn't a standard normal attack as it has significantly MORE risk than just losing a battle (Which you compared it to later in your post)
lol okay so if I put my pylon within his base = cheesey
if i put the pylon on the door of his base = its not?
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On July 23 2010 17:38 DiTH wrote:
I agree that the term is used too much but it certainly is not useless,if you want to use a term that includes all of cannon rushes or proxy gating or 7pooling or anything you need to have a word and Cheese is that.
The big problem with the word Cheese is since there is a big difference in skill level and in the strategic view of the game among the players there cant be a concensus to which strategy is Cheese or isnt.
So ultimately IMO the word Cheese has as much power as the Person's knowledge of the game,skill level and strategic mind using it.
except where do we draw the line for what goes into the category cheese an what doesn't? Who decides?
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I agree that the term can give certain things a negative 'ring' to whatever is being mentioned. I personally would like to see commentators use this in better context and less to paint a negative picture of a player. A commentator says that X's 4 warp gate build is cheesy. Y does the same thing in the same tournament but the same commentator does not label it as cheese. The commentator just gave a negative connotation to viewers about one player but not the other. Is the commentator bias about the players? If so, thats totally fine. We all have our own favorites. What i don't like when the commentator is letting it leak into the casting which can directly affect a player's image due to the amount of influence caster's have in the community. Promote a player all you want, just don't give another a bad ring.
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On July 23 2010 17:37 azotic wrote:
I'd like to offer a couple thoughts here:
What defines a "cheese" strategy isn't any objective description but instead the feeling of frustration on the receiving end that it's qualitatively unfair. "If he'd played fairly I would have beaten him."
All the other definitions are chasing what makes experienced players feel that a strategy is unfair.
another definition of cheese.
told you there were lots out there.
As for arguing that "we don't need the term," well, as long as people use it, we're stuck with it.
pretty much >.>
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On July 23 2010 17:49 ReachTheSky wrote:
I agree that the term can give certain things a negative 'ring' to whatever is being mentioned. I personally would like to see commentators use this in better context and less to paint a negative picture of a player. A commentator says that X's 4 warp gate build is cheesy. Y does the same thing in the same tournament but the same commentator does not label it as cheese. The commentator just gave a negative connotation to viewers about one player but not the other. Is the commentator bias about the players? If so, thats totally fine. We all have our own favorites. What i don't like when the commentator is letting it leak into the casting which can directly affect a player's image due to the amount of influence caster's have in the community. Promote a player all you want, just don't give another a bad ring.
Exactly ! considering how many people watch day9 and learn from him... it just sucks that all these people will from now on find 4 warp gate cheesey.
Attero once said on the stream (vTgaming) " 4 warp gate is not all in, all in is when u put "ALL" that you have "IN" the last atk. Meaning you bring your probes everything. All-in is it works, you win, it doesn't, you GG.
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Because you can't clearly draw the line between what is and isn't cheese no one should use the word? It's a popular word because it is more fun to use than generic terms like "high risk early strategy" and has a certain connotation with it, not that it is "noobish" but that the strategy will create a situation that will not be a traditional demonstration of "starcraft skill" between the players and where the cheeser introduces a more random element to the outcome of the game. So it is definitely not a useless word. It might get overused for starcraft 2 where it gets attached with single unit centric strategies or mid game minor gambles but I'm sure once strategies become more standardized and regular , the word "cheese" will be used in its more traditional sense as in starcraft 1.
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On July 23 2010 17:53 virgozero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 17:49 ReachTheSky wrote:
I agree that the term can give certain things a negative 'ring' to whatever is being mentioned. I personally would like to see commentators use this in better context and less to paint a negative picture of a player. A commentator says that X's 4 warp gate build is cheesy. Y does the same thing in the same tournament but the same commentator does not label it as cheese. The commentator just gave a negative connotation to viewers about one player but not the other. Is the commentator bias about the players? If so, thats totally fine. We all have our own favorites. What i don't like when the commentator is letting it leak into the casting which can directly affect a player's image due to the amount of influence caster's have in the community. Promote a player all you want, just don't give another a bad ring.
Attero once said on the stream (vTgaming) " 4 warp gate is not all in, all in is when u put "ALL" that you have "IN" the last atk. Meaning you bring your probes everything. All-in is it works, you win, it doesn't, you GG.
doesnt need any probes or whatever. if you rely on a single move to win you the game/deal big dmg or else you are in a unwinnable situation its a allin. this can have many forms.
dimagas baneling bust vs whitera was a allin in evry way. he didnt bring any drones. if he fails to break the wall he has no units left,has no tech,no eco and is a base behind -> unwinnable. he put evrything on one card. thats a allin.
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On July 23 2010 17:37 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 17:30 virgozero wrote:On July 23 2010 17:28 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
term has been used for years and years and years. it has a meaning and just because its sometimes overused doesnt mean it should go away.
i dont see the problem in any way and actually think your OP is one of the worst threads in the recent time that got more then 2 pages. the problem? 1.) its useless, why have a useless word? 2.) it promotes people calling other people strategies inadequate by using the term cheese. 1. why is it useless? if it was useless why is it used often since 10+ years? maybe you dont know mr "i registered may 2010 and now tell evryone which words to use about the game!" but its not some weird new term. read before you respond please, thanks.
2. so if those guys would call a strat "easy noobluckshit strat!" or whatever instead of "cheese" it would be better?
yes.
and i still dont see a "problem". i just see a guy who doesnt like one thing and makes a huge buzz out of it.
you mean I see a problem, and I discuss it.
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i was never comfortable with the word, and always had trouble defining it. now that you eloquently eloquated it, i agree.
among the strongest points i think are:
1.) if a strategy is all in aka I either win or GG, then call the strategy an "all-in strategy"
There is NO NEED to call it cheese
2.) if a strategy is early agression taking advantage of the lack of serious resistance, then just call the strategy an "early agression strategy"
There is NO NEED to call it cheese
What results from this is people go " Oh ! he says its kinda cheesey which must mean its kinda noobish, I guess HuK isn't that great of a player after all" and believe me when you read the comments, you can DEFINITELY see people getting that kind of negative(i'd say) understanding.
yeah, there is a definite negative connotation with the word that implies skill-less, and "gimmicky".
revelation: i suppose gimmicky is a better word. at the very least, it sets a clearer definition of what is meant by "cheese"
last but not least, not to be picky but I really dislike how Day[9] called HuK's 4 warp gate kinda "cheesey". WTF DOES THAT MEAN?
Why do you need to say that even? There is literally 0 accurate meaning that comes with that sentence.
Your strategy is "cheesey". Wtf?
Its either "an all-in strategy that relies on surprise to win a game early without serious resistance" or its not. How can a strategy be "kinda cheesey".
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There won't ever be an exact definition for this term, the word is open to interpretation.
In my own opinion Tester going for a void ray against TLO tonight wasn't "Cheese". Others may think differently, as you said.
I think the main reason people would call this "cheese" is after an extremely epic game 2, people were disappointed with how "lame" game 3 was in comparison.
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On July 23 2010 17:59 Shatter wrote:
the strategy will create a situation that will not be a traditional demonstration of "starcraft skill" between the players and where the cheeser introduces a more random element to the outcome of the game.
proxy gate does not demonstrate skill?
sitting at your own base macroing up demonstrate skill?
can i lol?
I am not sure what ladder you are in but I am in diamond and NOBODY cheeses. Why? Because its so easy to defend.(and that every1 scouts their base) The fact that someone can have the balls (whitera) to pull off these strategies at the highest level of tournament is really amazing.
I dare you to play poker for $3000, don't even look at your cards and just go all in.
You wouldn't do it.
Yah on the surface it looks like some easy sh1t, but I bet if you were in the players position you'd be sweating your a$$ off making that decision.
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On July 23 2010 18:05 virgozero wrote:
I am not sure what ladder you are in but I am in diamond and NOBODY cheeses.
You just used the word yourself so I guess it does have a use :D. Case closed ^.^ lols
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On July 23 2010 16:37 FC.Strike wrote:Zatic made a thread about Cheese and All-Ins that I believe many of us have come to accept: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=123613Cheese: A strategy that relies overwhelmingly or entirely on secrecy. If scouted, the strategy fails and puts the executing player at a severe disadvantage, or right out costs him the game. All-In: An aggressive strategy aimed at killing the opponent off completely in one attack. All available resources are put into this one attack and no follow-up is being considered. Should the attack fail and the opponent live through it, the game is almost certainly lost to a counter or to superior enemy tech/economy. The Liquipedia should probably be updated to reflect this more modern view. P.S. The people who care enough about linguistics enough to argue about it are different from the total noobs who use the word in a way not to your liking. I'm not usually irritated by threads, but this and the latest metagame post come across as highly snobby and elitist. I would put in my own 2 cents about my take on this issue, but I don't have the mental energy to argue for or against such a completely meaningless concept. Good luck with your movement to educate the masses or form a cult of followers who will never use the word cheese or whatever. I for one will be drinking a very tall glass of wine.
I admire you so much right now  respect!! 
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On July 23 2010 16:18 virgozero wrote:
From a recent tournament that shall remain nameless so I don't have to use spoiler tags
You should have used them, or at least remove the names.
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i think the real thing common to all "cheeses"
is that it is easily blockable at competent level of play so long as it is scouted.
The reason it is cheese and not standard is exactly that.
This is another way of saying that a cheese "relies of surprise." the other side of the coin is that if it is scouted, then it easily crumbles.
the other side of the saying that that it is "all in ish" is that doing a cheese means you are sacrificing all future viability. "all in' is fine, i don't see a problem with that term.
all in certainly =/= cheese. you can all in at any point in the game, choosing to amass all towards military asap, sacrificing any future economy, getting you into a situation where, if ur attack fails, u pretty much are in a very behind, losing position.
i suppose cheese can be otherwise defined as going all in very early.
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On July 23 2010 18:05 virgozero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 17:59 Shatter wrote:
the strategy will create a situation that will not be a traditional demonstration of "starcraft skill" between the players and where the cheeser introduces a more random element to the outcome of the game. proxy gate does not demonstrate skill? sitting at your own base macroing up demonstrate skill? can i lol? I am not sure what ladder you are in but I am in diamond and NOBODY cheeses. Why? Because its so easy to defend.(and that every1 scouts their base) The fact that someone can have the balls (whitera) to pull off these strategies at the highest level of tournament is really amazing. I dare you to play poker for $3000, don't even look at your cards and just go all in. You wouldn't do it. Yah on the surface it looks like some easy sh1t, but I bet if you were in the players position you'd be sweating your a$$ off making that decision.
I said "traditional starcraft skill." If you watched a game where someone proxy gates and win, could you honestly say how good at starcraft as a whole they are? Even Jaedong and Flash cheese sometimes, not because they are playing against better players but as a strategic move. But it would be weird to say "Jaedong played so well" if you just watched him 5 pool a 14 cc. Good players use cheese too but you act like people only use the word cheese for bad players.
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perhaps the etymology of the word cheese sheds light to its definition as well.
CHEESE! find it! must find cheese! if u find cheese you win!
this connection illustrates the idea that the other person scouts you, or "finds the cheese" he is pretty likely to win and you lose.
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completely agree. cheese is such a stupid name, and is used way way to much. what ever happened to just rushing someone?
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"So like, the word 'fuck' actually means to have sex. But lots of people don't really use the word 'fuck' in the right context. You know like people will say 'fuck' in bad ways which de-values the word, I mean lots of people would say 'TLO got fucked by Tester' but that's not how you use it! Clearly since the meaning of the word got warped and turned into something else we should ban/eliminate it."
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On July 23 2010 17:47 virgozero wrote:Show nested quote +
I see the problem here though. You are dealing in absolutes, and obviously don't like the concept of non-absolutes. You said that 'fastey' had no meaning. Yet there is. I'll use a text graphic to demonstrate. Lets take fast to be faster than normal. Using absolutes we get;
Normal-Fast
Yet in the real world this doesn't exist, as absolutes are hard to find. Here is how 'Normal' and 'Fast' exist in the real world.
Normal ------------------------------------------- Fast
See in reality there's a whole slew of variations to 'fast', some of which lie between normal and fast. 'Fastey' is similar to 'Fastish' which I have actually used, when something wasn't 'Fast', nor was it 'Normal' speed. It may be something like thus;
Normal ------------------ Fastey ------------- Fast
Sigh do I really have to do this >.> Normal : normal Fast : fast Between normal and fast : BETWEEN NORMAL AND FAST *gasp* fastey suggests that something is "partially" fast. When its not. If you say something is "partially fast" then you are assuming that
Right, now it's my turn. Do I really need to do this?
Fastey inhibits the gap between Normal and Fast. Your still trying to deal in absolutes. YES fastey suggests that something is partially fast. That's the point. We are giving a word to that space BETWEEN NORMAL AND FAST as you put it. Say Im telling a story, and its about a guy running. He was running at a speed in the space BETWEEN NORMAL AND FAST. Do I say that? No, because its cumbersome speech. So I say he was moving 'Fastey' or more appropriately 'Fastish'. This is why we need non-absolutes, to identify this gap.
My mistake to put a solid Fastey on the graphic when you are still being so technical.
Normal ------------ ( F-a-s-t-e-y) --- Fast.
There. Its a rage of values, between Normal and Fast, towards the fast end.
when something is partially fast it means it CONTAINS "fast". But if that speed is not yet fast how can it contain fast?
Now I really am confused. You can't understand how something that is not fast can contain fast?
A soup is partially water. It contains water. Yet it is not water.
Megabyte contains byte, but it is not a byte.
This sort of language is a basis for out language in the modern world, if you can't fathom how it works, I'm not sure what to say.
Cheese does not work like that. Cheese is cheese firmly defined by liquidpedia.
It's firmly defined, but not in absolutes, (again the problem) and therein lies your problem.
lol okay so if I put my pylon within his base = cheesey
if i put the pylon on the door of his base = its not?
Nope, not what I said. Never said that a door pylon isn't cheesy. Infact I never said ANYTHING about door pylons. Go back and read it and come back with a response that's based on what I said. I said it's all in because he is committing 500+Minerals worth of pylons, plus the lack of gas, plus the lack of pylons in his main (and so supply), plus the units he is warping in. Nothing about Door pylons there.
"where do we draw the line, which shows the weakness of the definition and the weakness of the term all together"
This doesn't change my point at all. My point is still that you are trying to deal in absolutes, which is why it doesn't work. Here you are saying that the definition should contain absolutes, or else it's a bad definition. It doesn't need to. Since almost nothing is absolutes in nature, then trying to define things with absolutes fails. Soup is quite adequately defined by my computer as
"A liquid dish, typically made by boiling meat, fish or vegetables in stock or water."
Sure it contains an absolute that it must contain liquid, but the rest is non-absolute, because soup isn't an absolute itself.
Cheese isn't an absolute, what it is can vary, and so you define it by using non-absolutes.
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On July 23 2010 17:37 azotic wrote:
I'd like to offer a couple thoughts here:
What defines a "cheese" strategy isn't any objective description but instead the feeling of frustration on the receiving end that it's qualitatively unfair. "If he'd played fairly I would have beaten him."
All the other definitions are chasing what makes experienced players feel that a strategy is unfair.
As for arguing that "we don't need the term," well, as long as people use it, we're stuck with it.
Exactly! (+ fix)
just another form of whining, experience has nothing to do with it - well, using slang word help whiners feel better i guess
And yeah, were stuck with it, nothing bad tho, always make me smile when i hear it.
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United States11637 Posts
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5673 Posts
![[image loading]](https://theinnerdoor.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/cheese-pizza.jpg)
Yum.
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Katowice25012 Posts
I like pizza cheese, but hate cheese pizza. Where does put me? I don't know where I stand, help me out TL!
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5673 Posts
That is a very fair cheese rank btw. Totally correct to put swiss above cheddar. Very unbiased rank, and no one is going to argue about this except blind, rabid fanboys.
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5673 Posts
See what I mean? Here come the haters. These guys just don't get that the Cheese Rank is much more than just each cheese's current status. It's about so much more than that. If you just want to see which cheese has a better ELO atm just go to the supermarket. Seriously, you kids.
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Katowice25012 Posts
Swiss is great but you're all overvaluing it. Cheddar vs Swiss bo5 cheddar comes out on top (though it would take all 5).
I don't even know what to say about Brie #1.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
I'm sorry but nothing touches Danish double Cream Brie. Nothing gets close rofl.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.wisconsincheesemart.com/images/4295CheddarWheelWeb.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/may2009/6/9/edam-cheese-pic-rex-features-862302803.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.igourmet.com/images/productsLG/mozzarella.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.foodsubs.com/Photos/swisscheese.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://shop.hotscot.net/customer_images/E5EF3591-DC95-4F40-86AC-F4B558D092A6/large/mull%20brie%20plate-large.jpg)
