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On June 16 2010 02:09 GG.Win wrote:
Randi is an idiot.
While I'm skeptical myself on Homeopathy, but theres no reason to not give it a try. It's relatively safe and actually has some validity in it. Placebo effect is great anyway.
There is a reason not to give it a try, it's simply diluted water, the science behind it shows that. There is evidence to show that it doesn't work and is simply quackery. You're really going to say that a placebo effect is a good reason to take it?
On June 16 2010 02:30 GG.Win wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2010 02:20 Djzapz wrote:
Yeah dude you're right, there's no reason not to try something disproven by science... What were we thinking? Of course it's relatively safe, seeing how it's water.
If you have too much money you can even fill your water dispenser with homeopathic "medicine" that does absolutely nothing. Sure you pay an incredible amount of money for water but whatever, right? You should also try voodoo and crystals. No reason not to try it right?
Randi is an idiot and screw science, what has it ever done for us?
Seriously, think logically. You should seriously think logically
Hahahahahahaha
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Netherlands13554 Posts
As far as I know, homeopathy is based on using toxins or virusses that actually are cause of certain infections but in such a small dose that your body can build up anti-bodies over time. Therefore treatments take a long time to show any sort of effect. I have had a long history with homeopathy, mainly because I had a lot of allergies in my body (dust, house animals, easy to get a cold, stuff like that) from when I was a baby.
I'm not sure if the homeopathy ever helped against my allergies, but I do know that it cured me of one thing: warts. In specific waterwarts (not sure if it's translated like that in English). The usual cure for that is liquid nitrogen which freezes them off with a temperature of -220 degrees Celcius, but that didn't work. I had them on my nose (big confidence issues back when I was like 16-17 years old) and later on on my hands. Docs tried cutting them off, tried burning them off with an electro torch (most painful experience in my life) and even more liquid nitrogen treatments at a dermatologist. They came back every time. So I went to see a homeopath (same one that 'treated' my allergies) and he gave me Thuja which is a pretty common homeopathic medicin against warts. He told me that it would take 6 months before any effect was shown. In the next 6 months nothing really happened, as he said. But right after about 6 months, I suddenly saw black spots in the warts and they started dying off. 3 days later every wart was gone and I definitely had about 20. I didn't give it much hope from the start, I didn't know how long I was taking them when they started dying so I doubt it's a placebo. I'm confident that Thuja was the reason why they died. Nothing else worked.
One of the happiest days of my life when they started dying. You wouldn't believe how bad it looks to have it look like snot is coming out of your nose the whole time. Every time someone would kindly say 'hey you should whipe your nose' only for me to reply that they're warts and I couldn't do anything about em.
So yeah, pretty sure most homeopathic medicine doesn't work as well, but I'm certain that there is some truth to the method.
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On June 16 2010 03:09 Krolinkos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2010 02:09 travis wrote:On June 16 2010 01:44 Krolinkos wrote:For a good resource on quackery and pseudo-medicine, I would suggest sciencebasedmedicine.org, and all the respective blogs run by the contributors. I have nothing but the highest praise for both the editors (Novella and Gorski), their efforts over the last few years fighting to somewhat combat the endless bullshit on the internet have been outstanding. They also have a reference section for factual overviews of common quackery topics, along with indexed posts by topic and links to good outside resources. Quick links for you: http://sciencebasedmedicine.orghttp://sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/homeopathy/ This site is obviously massively biased. I'll get into it with you if you want to. It's seriously like a gigantic slap in the face to eastern medicine, which has a very rich history and while it may contain "quackery", it also contains proven methods of healing. It's clear the editors have already made up their minds about many of these topics. Have they actually studied them their whole lives? Or did they study western medicine? First off: there is no such thing as "eastern" medicine or "western" medicine. There is just medicine, period, defined as a treatment that works.
We are not allowed to classify things anymore? There's no kung fu or karate, there's just martial arts? If you think there is no difference between the medicine styles of the east and of the west - well, you're entirely wrong. Sure, with globalization and modernization that line is becoming increasingly blurred, but even in today's society it is still very evident.
The health industry searches far and wide for potential cures, and the easiest place to start is with "traditional" remedies.
what health industry are you talking about? most of the money in today's health industry, at least here in the U.S.A, is based in pharmaceuticals. are you trying to tell me that the pharmaceutical industry is interested in traditional remedies? that's B.S. they are interested in making money, as are most western doctors. which is exactly why you see so many commercials for drugs with a million side effects and then 1 month later you hear about class action lawsuits against that company because the drug was causing so many problems. it's to the benefit of these companies to discredit alternative healing as much as possible.
If it works, find why it works, and then put the active ingredient in a pill, balm, or solution and dispense accordingly. If it's a physiological treatment (as opposed to pharmaceutical) then, again, find out why and repeat. This is where all your "proven methods of healing" have gone - into our pills, splints and IV drips!
I was referring more to acupuncture, reflexology, yoga, fasting, etc. Though I have no doubt there are still many traditional chinese techniques using herbs and other shit that aren't being utilized.
A great outcome of the scientific method is that we can find out whether the candles, the incense, the herb rubbed on the wound, or the chanting by a priest in the ancient ritual is what causes patients to heal. Spoiler alert: EVERY treatment found to test above placebo level so far, in the entire fucking scientific literature, has been found to have a proper cause which has been reproduced and used on patients.
This isn't true. There is a lot about acupuncture, yoga, fasting, reflexology, that science doesn't understand at all. And there are many documented cases of said techniques working to heal various ailments.
With regard to the above, I don't want to hear anything about science "not working" for certain treatments, or "not being appropriate" to investigate a particular cure of your liking. Science is the only tool we have to look at the cause/effect relationship in an unbiased manner, and deals with all natural phenomena. Even if the treatment caused realignment of your inner energy flow (although undecectable by any instrument, funnily enough), we would still be able to see the results in patient health outcomes.
yes, exactly. which is why some of these alternative medicine techniques have followings of billions of people.
Also: I pose to you - if I can't detect something, and you can't show me how to detect it, why should I believe something exists?
Part of what I argue is that many of these alternative techniques have not been adequately tested. And often, when they are tested, there is a prior agenda to discredit the technique in the first place.
Yes, it's clear that the authors have 'made up their minds' about these topics. However, taking acupuncture as an example, if a proper study was released tomorrow that detailed:
- a physiological mechanism for health benefits, including chemicals/receptors if appropriate
- an explanation thereby of the "connections" between needles in one place and relieving pain in unconnected regions
- a double-blind trail showing that some connection was significantly significant
- a reason why modern medical investigations has missed the effect up until now
then I and the rest of the world will sit up and take notice. And, when further studies are done, and the effect is confirmed, then we will reverse our position right away and look for what we were doing wrong in all our previous studies, and incorporate it into professional treatment. Until then, we'll stick with the current evidence. This isn't being closed-minded, we're completely open to the evidence that's never been provided.
Who is this "we" you are talking about? Where are these rigorous studies on alternative medicine being performed? I haven't read about them.
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On June 16 2010 03:21 Slunk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2010 03:02 Djzapz wrote:On June 16 2010 02:57 Slunk wrote:
It's obviously only placebo (everything else is not an opinion, just bullshit), but maybe it's the best to market it as actual medicine. No placebo will work if it has placebo written right on it, that is not how it works. And based on a lot of tests and statistics, the placebo effect is very strong, so it is actually not that easy to invent some medicine that works better than a placebo.
So, I am aware of the fact that homeopathy is bullshit, but I don't get angry over this as long as there are people who get better using this "meds" to get the placebo effect going. The thing is they would get better without it too... Or with western medicine which is often cheaper... If only they knew. No, they wouldn't. In order for the placebo effect to work, people have to believe that they get help. It does not matter if it helps or not, they have to get some pills or something.
The placebo effect works with real medicine too - it works on top of the actual effect of the medicine. Also the placebo effect helps you "feel better". You *GET* better without the placebo effect. Getting and feeling better are very different.
If you use homeopathy because of an upset stomach of a cold or because your carpal tunnel and you believe it works, I could also give you an aspirin and tell you it's magical stuff made off off unicorns and if you believed it you'd feel even better. It might fail to cure the underlying problem if there's one.
In the case of the upset tummy or the cold, maybe you'll feel better until it passes because your body handles it; good for you. You benefit from your ignorance in this case.
In the case of the carpal tunnel, perhaps you lower the pain instead of fighting the cause of the pain, which is a bad thing and bad medicine.
If you have a rash because you're dying of whatever disease, and you hate real medicine so you resort to a "homeopath" with no medical training, he may give you diluted poison ivy. And then you'll black out, he'll give you something else that's diluted until he realizes that it's not really working. Then perhaps he'll have the decency to send you to a real doctor who's going to determine the underlying cause of your symptoms, at which point you'll either sign the paper or keep drinking magical water until you die.
I mean it's pretty hard to gauge. Is it good to keep people ignorant so they feel better when they take your rubbish medicine? Is lying to people fine because it makes them feel fuzzy inside? If so then there is a heaven waiting for you brother you just have to believe, have faith.
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On June 16 2010 03:36 Twisted wrote:
As far as I know, homeopathy is based on using toxins or virusses that actually are cause of certain infections but in such a small dose that your body can build up anti-bodies over time. Therefore treatments take a long time to show any sort of effect. I have had a long history with homeopathy, mainly because I had a lot of allergies in my body (dust, house animals, easy to get a cold, stuff like that) from when I was a baby.
I'm not sure if the homeopathy ever helped against my allergies, but I do know that it cured me of one thing: warts. In specific waterwarts (not sure if it's translated like that in English). The usual cure for that is liquid nitrogen which freezes them off with a temperature of -220 degrees Celcius, but that didn't work. I had them on my nose (big confidence issues back when I was like 16-17 years old) and later on on my hands. Docs tried cutting them off, tried burning them off with an electro torch (most painful experience in my life) and even more liquid nitrogen treatments at a dermatologist. They came back every time. So I went to see a homeopath (same one that 'treated' my allergies) and he gave me Thuja which is a pretty common homeopathic medicin against warts. He told me that it would take 6 months before any effect was shown. In the next 6 months nothing really happened, as he said. But right after about 6 months, I suddenly saw black spots in the warts and they started dying off. 3 days later every wart was gone and I definitely had about 20. I didn't give it much hope from the start, I didn't know how long I was taking them when they started dying so I doubt it's a placebo. I'm confident that Thuja was the reason why they died. Nothing else worked.
One of the happiest days of my life when they started dying. You wouldn't believe how bad it looks to have it look like snot is coming out of your nose the whole time. Every time someone would kindly say 'hey you should whipe your nose' only for me to reply that they're warts and I couldn't do anything about em.
So yeah, pretty sure most homeopathic medicine doesn't work as well, but I'm certain that there is some truth to the method.
Unfortunately, nothing you said can be taken seriously. None of it has any evidence to support it at all, only subjective stories from people that support homeopathy. The principles of homeopathy are extremely illogical and are contradicted by science.
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fffffuuuuu
quote instead of edit
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If anyone thinks homepathy is harmless please read this.
http://www.badscience.net/2007/09/homeopathy-gives-you-aids/#more-531
The title is of course a joke but matter discussed is not. While sometimes homepathy might by helpfull (via placebo effect), its usually harmless. But there are some instances, not rare unfortunetly when homeopathy is actually causing harm.
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On June 16 2010 03:36 Twisted wrote:So yeah, pretty sure most homeopathic medicine doesn't work as well, but I'm certain that there is some truth to the method.
Twisted, consider the possibility that the part of the solution that cured you was the rest of what was in it. Like I said earlier in the thread, homeopathy is often mixed with other stuff which is sometimes legitimate and effective.
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warts are a virus, usually removing them does remove the effected area but its fully possibly for them to continue to grow. The issue i have with this, is that it makes no sense as to why you would assume it was the homeopathy that fixed your warts. The way you described homeopathy, it would be like putting out a bonfire with a candle? You also described the immunization process that has been adopted by modern medicine... but thats entirely pre-emptive.
I don't know why you ruled out the possibility of your body removing the virus itself, and jump to the conclusion it was diluted water that had a 6month triggering time. (???)
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Homeopathy is pure bullshit, and has been proven to be as much time and time again. Good to see most people here are logical-thinking people who realize it's bullshit through and through.
Also, James Randi is awesome.
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Netherlands13554 Posts
On June 16 2010 03:40 Lefnui wrote:
Unfortunately, nothing you said can be taken seriously. None of it has any evidence to support it at all, only subjective stories from people that support homeopathy. The principles of homeopathy are extremely illogical and are contradicted by science.
I do not support homeopathy fully, just saying that that medicine has definitely worked for me and that other medicine might also work. I'm a pretty rational person who doesn't believe in ghost stories or any type of religion. I believe in evolution/fact. In this case, the medicine worked 100%, even though I can't 'scientifically' prove it.
Just want to point out that it shouldn't be shot down instantly because 'science' told us so. Lots of oriental medicine from people living in the jungle from plants or whatever would probably receive the same response from established doctors who believe in their education.
This is a longshot, but: has "science" proven that it *doesn't* work?
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United States43063 Posts
On June 16 2010 03:36 Twisted wrote:
As far as I know, homeopathy is based on using toxins or virusses that actually are cause of certain infections but in such a small dose that your body can build up anti-bodies over time. Therefore treatments take a long time to show any sort of effect.
1 molecule in 30 tons of water isn't just a small dose. It's a non existent dose unless you buy 30 tons of medicine. In the six months you had homeopathic medicine the chance of you having any of whatever toxin they think causes warts is low. You were drinking water.
If you'd like to make a scientific case for pure water having health benefits then please do but don't think for a moment there was anything but pure water in the medicine. It's mathematically unlikely.
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8751 Posts
On June 16 2010 03:11 Roe wrote:
Although I think Homeopathy is quite the fraud, the amount of fanaticism and lack of scientific method on the part of Randi made him seem more like a comedian playing to the crowd than scientist trying to disprove a theory.
He's not trying to be a scientist disproving a theory while giving a short talk to an audience. There aren't any scientists that conduct the scientific method in such a setting. Randi is aware of proper science and the fact that it reveals vendors of homeopathic medicine as the fraudulent merchants they really are. He's spreading the message, hoping to put a stop to them.
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In this case, the medicine worked 100%, even though I can't 'scientifically' prove it.
What was the active ingredient that worked?
This is a longshot, but: has "science" proven that it *doesn't* work?
Yes.
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Arsenous acid is a part of the medicine?
Arsenous acid is present in tap water....
To make homeopathic medicine you have to:
Clean water of arsenous acid
Put arsenous acid into clean water sample
Dilute water sample to the point where arsenous acid is no longer present.
Why not just dilute tap water?
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Netherlands13554 Posts
On June 16 2010 03:44 Destro wrote:
warts are a virus, usually removing them does remove the effected area but its fully possibly for them to continue to grow. The issue i have with this, is that it makes no sense as to why you would assume it was the homeopathy that fixed your warts. The way you described homeopathy, it would be like putting out a bonfire with a candle? You also described the immunization process that has been adopted by modern medicine... but thats entirely pre-emptive.
I don't know why you ruled out the possibility of your body removing the virus itself, and jump to the conclusion it was diluted water that had a 6month triggering time. (???)
Why wouldn't it be? I just have an open mind about it. Maybe it is true that the medicine is mixed with something that works but why would they call it homeopathic then?
And of course I have thought about the possibility of my body removing the virus itself. I was walking around with em for what.. 2-3 years or whatever. Tried various treatments as written in my original post which didn't work. So what, just coincidentally 6 months (as described with the treatment method) after I started using it they die in less than 3 days?
There are also doctors here that have followed a regular education of 10 years to become normal house-call doctors and after that picked up a course in homeopathy. Why would they do that if they don't believe in it? They are doctors after all that have learned to cure people the conventional way.
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On June 16 2010 03:45 Twisted wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2010 03:40 Lefnui wrote:
Unfortunately, nothing you said can be taken seriously. None of it has any evidence to support it at all, only subjective stories from people that support homeopathy. The principles of homeopathy are extremely illogical and are contradicted by science. I do not support homeopathy fully, just saying that that medicine has definitely worked for me and that other medicine might also work. I'm a pretty rational person who doesn't believe in ghost stories or any type of religion. I believe in evolution/fact. In this case, the medicine worked 100%, even though I can't 'scientifically' prove it. Just want to point out that it shouldn't be shot down instantly because 'science' told us so. Lots of oriental medicine from people living in the jungle from plants or whatever would probably receive the same response from established doctors who believe in their education. This is a longshot, but: has "science" proven that it *doesn't* work?
No science hasn't proven it doesn't work but science couldn't possibly prove that Santa doesn't exist... Proving a negative is too much to ask  .
Also read what I said above if you haven't.
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On June 16 2010 03:45 Twisted wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2010 03:40 Lefnui wrote:
Unfortunately, nothing you said can be taken seriously. None of it has any evidence to support it at all, only subjective stories from people that support homeopathy. The principles of homeopathy are extremely illogical and are contradicted by science. I do not support homeopathy fully, just saying that I believe the medicine has definitely worked for me and that other medicine might also work. I'm a pretty rational person who doesn't believe in ghost stories or any type of religion. I believe in evolution/fact. In this case, I believe that the medicine worked 100%, even though I can't 'scientifically' prove it. Just want to point out that it shouldn't be shot down instantly because 'science' told us so. Lots of oriental medicine from people living in the jungle from plants or whatever would probably receive the same response from established doctors who believe in their education. This is a longshot, but: has "science" proven that it *doesn't* work?
Fixed this for you. There are more plausible explanations for why your warts cleared up (assuming what you said is entirely accurate) than it was all because of diluted water. Here is a story that I feel is similar to your example here.
My mother swears that she has had an experience with a ghost. My father and her owned a house years ago and they had a piano, one day she said was outside and heard the piano being played. When she would come inside, it would sound like it was being played right from the piano in the house, and when she was outside, it sounded like it was inside the house. No one was there playing it, so it must have been a ghost.
I've argued with my mother over this, because there are many other more plausible reasons for this rather than it was a ghost. Also, because she believes it was, and it was so long ago, I'm not convinced that the story she tells is entirely what happened either, that would seem impossible. To her though, ghosts have been proven real.
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United States43063 Posts
On June 16 2010 03:37 travis wrote:Show nested quote +
The health industry searches far and wide for potential cures, and the easiest place to start is with "traditional" remedies.
what health industry are you talking about? most of the money in today's health industry, at least here in the U.S.A, is based in pharmaceuticals. are you trying to tell me that the pharmaceutical industry is interested in traditional remedies? that's B.S. they are interested in making money, as are most western doctors. which is exactly why you see so many commercials for drugs with a million side effects and then 1 month later you hear about class action lawsuits against that company because the drug was causing so many problems. it's to the benefit of these companies to discredit alternative healing as much as possible.
You're completely wrong here. It's a huge time saver to start with a natural remedy that works and break it down until you can find the thing that makes it work. Way better than just experimenting with chemicals at random until something does something. What the pharmaceutical gives you isn't a natural remedy, they don't give you willow bark extract, they give you asprin. But you're an idiot if you think they ignore willow bark extract.
If they heard some random amazonian tribe used a unique natural remedy only they had access to they'd be on that in a second. They'd test the natural remedy to see if it worked, then test the chemicals within it to see which of them worked, then synthesise the drug.
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EPT
