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On June 08 2010 13:55 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2010 13:43 RogerChillingworth wrote:On June 08 2010 13:33 kryto wrote:I voted zerg strongest and protoss weakest, but I think it is by a very small margin. I believe the majority of people voting zerg weakest are doing so because they fail to abuse all the insane lategame tactics zerg has available to them and in doing so assume that their race must clearly be weakest. Show me someone who utilizes nydus worms to link spread out expansions and uses broodlords whenever they have the opportunity and STILL thinks that zerg is the weakest, and i'll eat my words  . And yes, TvZ is my best matchup, but I still believe that zerg has so much untapped potential. Terran are probably the easiest to abuse and as such recieve a disproportionate amount of the strongest votes. I think that Protoss is completely capable of beating any race but since they are so limited in their tech choices (that are actually viable) i voted them weakest. hahaahahahahahahahahhhaahhaahahahahahahaahahhaahahahahHHAAHAHHAHAHAHH Laughing at someone who actually tries to reason and support his opinion is the saddest thing of all. Especially considering your lack of any reasoning-capability whatsoever. I hope you get banhammered and I'm not usually that guy. Same goes for the guy beneath you.
Or maybe you should scroll back to previous posts in this thread.
And excuse me for having to laugh at someone whose perspective is 100% backwards. I mean that's a feat. He even announces that he's a Terran player.
Jesus dude, go back to riding bikes and smoking weed.
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On June 08 2010 13:22 DooMDash wrote:
Tournament results argue Terran is the worst.
maka won an asm and the gom invitational immediately after patch 12 came out, i think morrow won something big-ish, there were like 5 of 8 terrans in the esl finals, terrans started doing very very well in all the little us things, i know the gosucoaching right after patch 12 was top 2 terrans at least.
so no, in the most recent patches terrans have been doing just fine in tournaments
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Laughing at someone who actually tries to reason and support his opinion is the saddest thing of all. Especially considering your lack of any reasoning-capability whatsoever. I hope you get banhammered and I'm not usually that guy.
Same goes for the guy beneath you.
Well I was serious about my question. In my opinion this must be a joke because every race has untapped potential which is obvious and out of question. To vote zerg as the strongest after admitting that you rape em as Terran seems like a strange reasoning to me.
Reductio ad absurdum may not be the most productive way to state it but it may let the guy realize that the things he stated are on the one hand obvious, on the other wrong.
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My troubles are ZvT. To me, I have to scout the Terran, while he knows I will get zerglings, roach/hydra and maybe muta, and fast expand; ALL countered my Terran mech. My builds are WAAAAY to confined as Zerg I feel. Compared to Protoss and Terran, creativity is at my fingertips.
All of this is just minor, for I like the game,
monitor
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On June 08 2010 08:29 Zurles wrote:
I'm a terran player always have been and always will, And Terran is by far the strongest race in my opinion. Like tester said, if all the Korean pros were playing terran would be dominating. I think the terran style has the built in advantage, because of you defend everything properly it's like an unstoppable force coming at you, and the better people get at defending all sorts of builds the more powerful it becomes. But in sc2 now terran have much more options and the general disadvantages of mobility and lack of early game control/options no longer exist for them.
Most people in this thread think terran is the strongest for the wrong reasons...
this is the only pro "terran is the strongest race" post I can support. but still. there is no such as a "strongest race". there are matchups there are maps and there are spawning locations.
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On June 08 2010 14:08 monitor wrote:
My troubles are ZvT. To me, I have to scout the Terran, while he knows I will get zerglings, roach/hydra, and fast expand. My builds are WAAAAY to confined as Zerg I feel like compared to Protoss and Terran, where creativity is at my fingertips.
All of this is just minor, for I like the game,
monitor
how does he know that you get this composition? and why would you make this against mech for example which counters it? and when you do this composition anyway then why do you have to scout the terran?
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Why does it even matter how well Terran is doing in tournaments? Why is this always the fall back argument? Even if no Terran players won any tournaments in the whole of Beta, why would it then mean that Terran is inferior? So TLO, coming in 2nd in like 4/5 of the most recent 'cups', represents the awfulness of Terran? Or Protoss? Or Zerg? What the fuck?
You have to look at things on a grander scale. The roach nerf was the biggest hit to a race since the opening of a beta for many reasons--reasons that could be gone into in a different thread or later on in this thread if need be. But it's unarguably the biggest change since the game's inception. Conversely, Terran has received numerous buffs to mech. Coupled with their excellent 2-base play, it's extremely difficult to break. It takes significantly more sweat and APM and cleverness and, even then, it's a dart-throw. I've seen dozens of top-tier games wherein the zerg tries drops, nydus worms, burrow-move with roaches, and speedlings to bust mech. It just doesn't work. Or, in the rare successful circumstances, it works but isn't at all cost-effective.
People forget that, in Brood War, dark swarm could be utilized to engage these mech lines. And the game is considered almost perfectly balanced.
Overlord drop capabilities still exist in Brood War. What do you think would happen to the game if dark swarm were removed? It's kind of a silly argument.
And people saying that Protoss is the weakest race or doesn't have viable tech options are just retarded. Like jesus fucking christ, are you even playing this game?
I'm at a loss for words.
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On June 08 2010 14:08 monitor wrote:
My troubles are ZvT. To me, I have to scout the Terran, while he knows I will get zerglings, roach/hydra, and fast expand. My builds are WAAAAY to confined as Zerg I feel like compared to Protoss and Terran, where creativity is at my fingertips.
All of this is just minor, for I like the game,
monitor
how does he know that you get this composition? and why would you make this against mech for example which counters it? and when you do this composition anyway then why do you have to scout the terran?
1) This is the only unit composition that Zerg can go. (banelings I suppose)
2) There is no counter for Terran mech, just plainly outplaying the Terran.
As Roger said, Dark Swarm needs to be added back to SC2 BADLY. Something needs to be done for Zerg, any different ideas?
monitor
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On June 08 2010 14:14 monitor wrote:
2) There is no counter for Terran mech, just plainly outplaying the Terran.
Play more SC2 when second phase comes okay?
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Wow people of every race (faction?) are really getting whiny here.
The game is quite balanced guys, people use stats like "zerg loses 51% of the time vs terran" to evidence an imbalance.
Come on, 49% win? Thats effing balanced as far as I'm concerned.
People always say, oh well a "same skill" zerg player will use to a "same skill" terran player. So zerg player, step it up 1/10th of a notch and take that win, every race has the very similar potential to win any given matchup.
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lolaloc please explain what "counters" Terran mech as Zerg. I consider Terran mech to be:
-siege tanks
-helions
-marines
-thors
-ravens
-vikings
Also, bunkers and missle turrets are also common. Now, for zerg, explain what counters that in Mid game. (ultras are considered late game for me).
Honestly, tell me because my friend keeps wooping my ass :-(.
monitor
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On June 08 2010 14:00 RogerChillingworth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2010 13:55 Saechiis wrote:On June 08 2010 13:43 RogerChillingworth wrote:On June 08 2010 13:33 kryto wrote:I voted zerg strongest and protoss weakest, but I think it is by a very small margin. I believe the majority of people voting zerg weakest are doing so because they fail to abuse all the insane lategame tactics zerg has available to them and in doing so assume that their race must clearly be weakest. Show me someone who utilizes nydus worms to link spread out expansions and uses broodlords whenever they have the opportunity and STILL thinks that zerg is the weakest, and i'll eat my words . And yes, TvZ is my best matchup, but I still believe that zerg has so much untapped potential. Terran are probably the easiest to abuse and as such recieve a disproportionate amount of the strongest votes. I think that Protoss is completely capable of beating any race but since they are so limited in their tech choices (that are actually viable) i voted them weakest. hahaahahahahahahahahhhaahhaahahahahahahaahahhaahahahahHHAAHAHHAHAHAHH Laughing at someone who actually tries to reason and support his opinion is the saddest thing of all. Especially considering your lack of any reasoning-capability whatsoever. I hope you get banhammered and I'm not usually that guy. Same goes for the guy beneath you. Or maybe you should scroll back to previous posts in this thread. And excuse me for having to laugh at someone whose perspective is 100% backwards. I mean that's a feat. He even announces that he's a Terran player. Jesus dude, go back to riding bikes and smoking weed.
It's funny how some people think they are center of the universe and that their opinion is THE opinion. Saying someone's perspective is "100% backwards" is admitting that you think your opinion is what counts, and that others forms of thought are apparently laughable ...
And what is weird about him mentioning he is Terran? You're acting like it's wrong to play Terran. He actually admits he might be biased because he plays Terran, you however are a (biased) Zerg player that rejects the possiblity of being biased.
And ending your continually degrading, no-reasoning whatsoever rants, with insults on a personal level proves once again you have nothing objective to say.
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You can't even base trade with nydus worms because they'll just fucking float away.
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On June 08 2010 14:18 monitor wrote:
lolaloc please explain what "counters" Terran mech as Zerg. I consider Terran mech to be:
-siege tanks
-helions
-marines
-thors
-ravens
-vikings
Also, bunkers and missle turrets are also common. Now, for zerg, explain what counters that in Mid game. (ultras are considered late game for me).
Honestly, tell me because my friend keeps wooping my ass :-(.
monitor
lol. so he is simultaneously countering roaches/ultras/lings (the tanks & marines), mutas (thors), hydras (ravens, marines) , and broodlords/corruptors (vikings)
are you stupid or something? thats a ridiculous amount of gas. if you let a terran sit on 3 base of course he will stomp you. also a pure macro roach build would stomp any build consisting of a bunch of marines vikings and ravens... you can only get so many tanks if you are getting all that other shit
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On June 08 2010 14:14 monitor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2010 14:08 monitor wrote:
My troubles are ZvT. To me, I have to scout the Terran, while he knows I will get zerglings, roach/hydra, and fast expand. My builds are WAAAAY to confined as Zerg I feel like compared to Protoss and Terran, where creativity is at my fingertips.
All of this is just minor, for I like the game,
monitor
how does he know that you get this composition? and why would you make this against mech for example which counters it? and when you do this composition anyway then why do you have to scout the terran? 1) This is the only unit composition that Zerg can go. (banelings I suppose) 2) There is no counter for Terran mech, just plainly outplaying the Terran. As Roger said, Dark Swarm needs to be added back to SC2 BADLY. Something needs to be done for Zerg, any different ideas? monitor
dunno why people want dark swarm back so badly
it was a fucking awful spell that made for horrible games in sc1 and doesnt even really address the problem. swarm wasnt what made mech beatable, at all. swarm raped bio, cuz there you could focus on lurkers and lurker+swarm was invincible. vs mech you didnt want lurkers, and tank splash means that regular units under swarm still get raped. obviously it would help, but really it would mostly serve to make bio even worse vs zerg and wouldnt help vs mech all that much. stop asking for swarm.
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Hmmm...I sort of agree with the poll now. It said Zerg was the weakest and strongest earlier. Seems to have been drastically updated with the popularity of T mech. Terran mech upgraded 3/3 in mass seems very unstoppable especially in the hands of a very good player. However, as a Zerg players, its our job to exploit this build for what it is. Harass and use our early game tactics to full potential before they can build up such a force. I have no comments for Protoss, as I believe they are the best all around race as of now.
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On June 08 2010 14:22 Soel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2010 14:18 monitor wrote:
lolaloc please explain what "counters" Terran mech as Zerg. I consider Terran mech to be:
-siege tanks
-helions
-marines
-thors
-ravens
-vikings
Also, bunkers and missle turrets are also common. Now, for zerg, explain what counters that in Mid game. (ultras are considered late game for me).
Honestly, tell me because my friend keeps wooping my ass :-(.
monitor lol. so he is simultaneously countering roaches/ultras/lings (the tanks & marines), mutas (thors), hydras (ravens, marines) , and broodlords/corruptors (vikings) are you stupid or something? thats a ridiculous amount of gas. if you let a terran sit on 3 base of course he will stomp you. also a pure macro roach build would stomp any build consisting of a bunch of marines vikings and ravens... you can only get so many tanks if you are getting all that other shit
it only takes a couple thors to be safe vs muta switches, 1 raven for pdd once they get to corruptors, the marines are totally unnecessary. its not impractical at all to go hellion/tank/viking with a handful of support units. obviously you're not making 10 of each unit.
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On June 08 2010 14:19 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2010 14:00 RogerChillingworth wrote:On June 08 2010 13:55 Saechiis wrote:On June 08 2010 13:43 RogerChillingworth wrote:On June 08 2010 13:33 kryto wrote:I voted zerg strongest and protoss weakest, but I think it is by a very small margin. I believe the majority of people voting zerg weakest are doing so because they fail to abuse all the insane lategame tactics zerg has available to them and in doing so assume that their race must clearly be weakest. Show me someone who utilizes nydus worms to link spread out expansions and uses broodlords whenever they have the opportunity and STILL thinks that zerg is the weakest, and i'll eat my words . And yes, TvZ is my best matchup, but I still believe that zerg has so much untapped potential. Terran are probably the easiest to abuse and as such recieve a disproportionate amount of the strongest votes. I think that Protoss is completely capable of beating any race but since they are so limited in their tech choices (that are actually viable) i voted them weakest. hahaahahahahahahahahhhaahhaahahahahahahaahahhaahahahahHHAAHAHHAHAHAHH Laughing at someone who actually tries to reason and support his opinion is the saddest thing of all. Especially considering your lack of any reasoning-capability whatsoever. I hope you get banhammered and I'm not usually that guy. Same goes for the guy beneath you. Or maybe you should scroll back to previous posts in this thread. And excuse me for having to laugh at someone whose perspective is 100% backwards. I mean that's a feat. He even announces that he's a Terran player. Jesus dude, go back to riding bikes and smoking weed. It's funny how some people think they are center of the universe and that their opinion is THE opinion. Saying someone's perspective is "100% backwards" is admitting that you think your opinion is what counts, and that others forms of thought are apparently laughable ... And what is weird about him mentioning he is Terran? You're acting like it's wrong to play Terran. He actually admits he might be biased because he plays Terran, you however are a (biased) Zerg player that rejects the possiblity of being biased. And ending your continually degrading, no-reasoning whatsoever rants, with insults on a personal level proves once again you have nothing objective to say.
Arguing that Protoss is the weakest race and Zerg is the strongest and all the LOLs and asininity in between? Excuse me, again, for being beside myself at such a valid opinion.
Sincerely.
There are just a few glaring factoids that get in the way of everyone being right and having something rational to say. Such as logically examining games wherein there is a conflict (TvZ, PvAnything) and drawing conclusions.
Yes, I play Zerg. Booya. I also played random for probably 60% of my games. I just feel more like a zerg player. I also feel like I'm being objective, even though I'm slamming someone for having a contrary opinion. That's just how it goes in the world of argument. It's a tough game.
By the way I love your country, bicycles and weed. I was just lobbing a gentle tease.
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On June 08 2010 14:06 Turbo.Tactics wrote:Show nested quote +
Laughing at someone who actually tries to reason and support his opinion is the saddest thing of all. Especially considering your lack of any reasoning-capability whatsoever. I hope you get banhammered and I'm not usually that guy.
Same goes for the guy beneath you.
Well I was serious about my question. In my opinion this must be a joke because every race has untapped potential which is obvious and out of question. To vote zerg as the strongest after admitting that you rape em as Terran seems like a strange reasoning to me. Reductio ad absurdum may not be the most productive way to state it but it may let the guy realize that the things he stated are on the one hand obvious, on the other wrong.
Well, he explains why he voted Zerg as strongest (most Zerg late-game trickery remains un(der)used). Whether you find it hilarious or not, he supported his opinion ... that's leagues ahead of: "OMG MECH IMBA!" ... Why? ... "Idra and Artosis say so and my cookiecutter 1a build loses to it too!".
My second favorite is when people start naming hardcounters to prove they can't build anything that can't be countered. hint: It's the same for all races!
@Roger: Clearly your view of Dutch people as cycling weed-smokers is as objective as the clogs on my feet.
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Again, it was a joke. Like "haha". You know..iNcontroL style. It's O.K. Saechiis, most of the time jokes consist of these stereotypes. It doesn't mean they're true.
I was just teasing.
On a related note:
P
T
Z
O.K.
Edit:
Or whatever, I don't even care. Terran could be better. I'm just of the opinion that Zerg has overwhelmingly more difficulty dealing with P and T than P and T have dealing with Zerg or each other. And maybe that's how it's supposed to be. But with the food cost of Zerg units as well as the extraordinary 1 and 2-base play, the quickness of games, the ease of warp-in, the all-ins P and T are capable of, it just seems silly to hoist Zerg #1. That's all. And I think I have the "diamond level" experience to say such a thing.
But call me biased.
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EPT
