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Oh, and for all this Roach talk... Protoss fill up much of their supply with Zealots, which aren't any more cost effective than Roaches. (Similar durability. Roach has range and suffers less from armor, but has mildly lower DPS. Roach has burrow heal/move. Equal move speed unupgraded, Speed Roaches faster than Speed Zealots but lack Charge. Roaches get creep bonus move speed. Roaches cost a bit of gas instead of minerals.)
There's nothing wrong with Roaches, except maybe the way they don't fit stylistically into a Zerg army. If Terran's ball is too strong for any Zerg army to approach, or if for whatever reason Zerg needs an exceptionally supply-efficient unit to win their matches, that's a separate issue, and may have more to do with the Viking/Thor's ridiculous anti-air than anything else.
By the by, does splash damage still applied to burrowed units? If not, burrowed roaches would seem like a shoo-in to attack tanks, although the slow burrowed move speed might ruin it.
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This whole "pro players don't play Terran" argument is ridicules. For one, its directly insulting all the top Terran players on the scene. As if the only reason players like DeMusliM, TLO,
QXC, and CauthonLuck, aren't winning every tourney, is because the're same caliber as players like HuK, NonY, and IdrA. Maybe these aren't the best examples (just players off the top of my head), my point is, its strikes me as generically stupid to assume there wouldn't players of equally high skill as top zerg and toss player, playing Terran.
Tester's comment was based exclusively on the korean pro scene, and it is quite possible that it applies there only (where T is getting destroyed on asia ladder), but there is simply no real evidence of this is EU/NA. Even if tester is correct his reasoning about lack of asia T players, His assertion that a "real" pro T player would just dominate the scene, is as of now, unproven.
In short, ill believe it when I see it. First of all, any TvP complaints id say are just toss jumping on the "T is too strong" bandwagon while they can get away with it. I think the main issue with TvZ, is the mass macro big rouch/hydra style of play that is extremely strong overall, is blaringly weak vs tank/thor lines. Plain simple time will probably solve the "problem," just like allot of the "problems" BR strats that temporarily dominated (like Bisu's "unbeatable" DT rush pvz). Zerg constantly beat terran with:
a) intelligent tech switches
b) contain/macro dominace mid game
c) getting a good attack off while tanks are moving
e) uber harassment
There are many ways to win, and Zerg do win A LOT. Even if there's some small imbalance, many of you posters are blowing it way out of proportion. As If every scrub T player is just wreaking artosis or something. Rest assured, if you lost to a T player, there is something you could have done to win.
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Thread title is a little misleading, I thought he meant whats your best and worst race. The polls ask which race is the weakest and strongest O_o.
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They cost more but you can still slow push with turrets as Terran. Haven't seen it from any other player besides myself but I see no reason not to. You are safe against burrowed roaches...save up scans...and even the suggestion of "Ultraliskdrops on tanks" that i heard from a terran in one of their "defend-a-perfectly-balanced-race-outrages" would be much harder making sure that at least one Ovi dies to an unupgraded tower upon arrival. Of course there is less reason to build turrets because of thors/viking.....but i still felt kinda oldschool doing the good old turret/tank with whatever support you need and you have the minerals anyways if you don't have to scan.
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Ultralisk+cracklings+infestors rape T mech as long as you dont engage them on choke points.. There just wasn't enough beta time since patch 14(ultra buff) for many zerg players to discover this. Just my 2 cents.. low diamond zerg.
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On June 08 2010 16:23 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2010 15:57 Geo.Rion wrote:[B]
Roach: A 75 Minerals , 25 gas armored unit with 145HP, 16 Attack and 27sec build time ... and it used to be 1 supply. Easily massed.
Let's compare it to the Terran counter, the Marauder:
A 100 mineral, 25 gas armored unit with 125HP, 10 Attack and 30 sec build time and 2 supply.
Wow, a counter that's 25 minerals more expensive, has 20 HP less, 6 Attack less, Takes 3 sec. longer to build and is double the supply cost ... only thing it has going for it is it's superior range/ slightly faster cooldown.
This is the text book example of a terrible post. You make it seem like Marauder have less DMG than roaches which is ridiculous, you just ignore the attack bonus they have against armor, not to mention that D/S wise marauders do even better, not to mention they are faster with stim then speed upgraded roaches, not to mention they have slow, which allows that 3-4 marauders if microed properly can kill off infinite ammount of roaches. Arent you ashamed of making a post based on units stats and ignoring the part which actually demolishes your pitiful argument? It's like saying Thors are terrible defensive units against Mutas and coming up with the stats ignoring the +dmg vs Light of the Thor, and the fact that it s repairable. Or this is a weak and not funny joke, which i do not get? I suppose it depends on your definition of a terrible post. Posting unit stats as an illustration of your point is surely better than outright claiming something is IMBA and OP? Or is it all about who shouts the loudest? Also you seem to ignore my claim that 5 Roaches in a straight up battle beat 4 marauders, I've never claimed Marauders don't beat Roaches ... I'm clarifying why the 2 supply roaches are justified (since in superior numbers they still beat their supposed hardcounter in cost-effectiveness). Also Concussive and Stim are upgrades which are not present by default, but to counter I could say your Roaches could have Burrow and Tunneling Claws which makes them even better against Marauders since they can burrow and regen while the Marauders continually lose 20HP stimming. You seem to handily overlook that Stim is temporary while Roach speed is permanent, making them faster overall. And yes I forgot the +Armor which makes them do 11 damage instead of 10, my bad even though it really isn't THAT significant in outcome. Am I ashamed? No, not really  ... why would I care about your judgement when there are clearly far worse posts in this thread which you don't bombard? Making it clear you are a Zerg player also (or have only read the last page).
Listen, tell me how good you are at this game. As far as i can see, you have no clue. Marauders demolish roaches, so you really shouldnt try to prove the opposing. 5 roaches in a straight up battle demolish 4 Marauders?
Why i absolutely doubt this, i canot say it s not true, because i ve never played a terran who was bad enough to let his marauders die to roaches, when he could just do some really simple micro and win the battle without casualities.
Also, you count dmg, not D/S which is bad. Even if we do not count micro, which is ridiculous, marauders kill raoches / cost.
without any upgrades marauders demolish roaches, with full upgrades marauders demolish roaches even more.
And what you say about supply, no, roaches arent suppoused to be 2 supply. maybe they are a bit too strong for 1 supply, but terribly bad for 2.
I played so many games when my 200/200 mid-late game army with better upgrades gets destroyed by P or T mid-late game armies, without doing serious demage to them, so i lose the game right after, even though i have more resources and i stream reinforcement.
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On June 08 2010 18:05 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2010 16:23 Saechiis wrote:On June 08 2010 15:57 Geo.Rion wrote:[B]
Roach: A 75 Minerals , 25 gas armored unit with 145HP, 16 Attack and 27sec build time ... and it used to be 1 supply. Easily massed.
Let's compare it to the Terran counter, the Marauder:
A 100 mineral, 25 gas armored unit with 125HP, 10 Attack and 30 sec build time and 2 supply.
Wow, a counter that's 25 minerals more expensive, has 20 HP less, 6 Attack less, Takes 3 sec. longer to build and is double the supply cost ... only thing it has going for it is it's superior range/ slightly faster cooldown.
This is the text book example of a terrible post. You make it seem like Marauder have less DMG than roaches which is ridiculous, you just ignore the attack bonus they have against armor, not to mention that D/S wise marauders do even better, not to mention they are faster with stim then speed upgraded roaches, not to mention they have slow, which allows that 3-4 marauders if microed properly can kill off infinite ammount of roaches. Arent you ashamed of making a post based on units stats and ignoring the part which actually demolishes your pitiful argument? It's like saying Thors are terrible defensive units against Mutas and coming up with the stats ignoring the +dmg vs Light of the Thor, and the fact that it s repairable. Or this is a weak and not funny joke, which i do not get? I suppose it depends on your definition of a terrible post. Posting unit stats as an illustration of your point is surely better than outright claiming something is IMBA and OP? Or is it all about who shouts the loudest? Also you seem to ignore my claim that 5 Roaches in a straight up battle beat 4 marauders, I've never claimed Marauders don't beat Roaches ... I'm clarifying why the 2 supply roaches are justified (since in superior numbers they still beat their supposed hardcounter in cost-effectiveness). Also Concussive and Stim are upgrades which are not present by default, but to counter I could say your Roaches could have Burrow and Tunneling Claws which makes them even better against Marauders since they can burrow and regen while the Marauders continually lose 20HP stimming. You seem to handily overlook that Stim is temporary while Roach speed is permanent, making them faster overall. And yes I forgot the +Armor which makes them do 11 damage instead of 10, my bad even though it really isn't THAT significant in outcome. Am I ashamed? No, not really ... why would I care about your judgement when there are clearly far worse posts in this thread which you don't bombard? Making it clear you are a Zerg player also (or have only read the last page). without any upgrades marauders demolish roaches, with full upgrades marauders demolish roaches even more. And what you say about supply, no, roaches arent suppoused to be 2 supply. maybe they are a bit too strong for 1 supply, but terribly bad for 2. I played so many games when my 200/200 mid-late game army with better upgrades gets destroyed by P or T mid-late game armies, without doing serious demage to them, so i lose the game right after, even though i have more resources and i stream reinforcement.
A Zealot is 2 supply, which is about as strong as a rouch. A marine is 1 supply, to give you an idea of what the strength of a 1 supply unit should look like. Obviously a marauder will kill a rouch, they do bonus damage to them. 4 lings (2 supply) on the other hand, would murder a marauder.
Keep in mind a 200/200 zerg army isnt supposed to kill a 200/200 Terran or Protoss army, unless it counter comps it really hard. In case you didn't notice in all those 200/200 late games you played, zerg get their faster, and replenish units quicker. weaker more expendable units are the whole philosophy behind the race.
I think it is really too early to tell whether rouch supply is wrong or not. The bottomline is zerg are still performing really well on a competitive level, using rouchs.
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On June 08 2010 12:43 Lithose wrote:Show nested quote +
I think the cheaper hatcheries is a misconception. Not only do hatcheries cost 300 minerals, they also cost a drone and an overlord of supply ~ 450 minerals. Zerg can drone up faster than other races, but dones don't mine less efficiently than scvs, and only slightly less than probes.
The main reason that zergs in pro games try to take more bases, imho, is that zergs have that early game aggression bonus of 6 lings in case of trouble. In addition, zerg armies tend to be less cost effective than terrans ones so pro zergs take more bases, but less workers per base, so it doesn't boil down to a war of attrition where the zerg loses. Now in starcraft 2, I can't really say anything about cost effectiveness.
The reason Zerg takes more bases is because their production is tied directly to the number of bases, since their CC is also their main production building. No other race works like that, for every other race, there is only an economic link to production (More money, more structures, more production.)...For the zerg, there is a direct link...More bases, more production. The zerg mechanics, like creep expansion/movement bonuses, all point to aggressive expansion. This is why I say zerg definitely have a macro advantage...I can't say if its enough of one to balance the game but it is there. (Just clarifying the last part, because I don't want people to think the word "advantage"=OP...It doesn't  )
You could also just get more hatcheries in your existing bases and not expand if you needed production though.
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what this thread proves is that, ironically enough, unless you play random or are a top (actual top) player, you are NEVER qualified to speak of balance issues pertaining to your own race.
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As much as we Zerg all hate Mech, I think we're missing ZvT with 4+ Collosus + Gateway units.
"lulz if you let him get that many collosus you should have lost" <--- That is not an acceptable answer. This Protoss army is incredibly more mobile than Mech, with 6 or so Sentries can split your army in half and demolish it immediately, the ever present Observer negates any burrowing offensive, and the fact most maps are made of chokes is heaven for the Collosus.
Once the 'Toss army reaches 4 Collosus, there is very little the Zerg can do. Brood Lords do work, but that requires AT LEAST 3 bases minimum, and by that time the Protoss is already pushing.
The 1 supply Roach made fighting that composition possible, but as of now it is incredibly difficult. What are some options of countering a late-game Protoss army?
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A colossus-heavy army? Overrun it with Corrupters, or flank. The only way Protoss units can match hydra DPS is with big splash damage.
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Thing is ZVP by the time he has 4+ collossi, the zerg has corruptors and they own collossi (and any other protoss air).
They are expensive, but zerg is so strong midgame they can take map control to pay for it all.
Neural parasite is a bit hit and miss though. If it was easier to use it might be OP, but at the same time it's a bit stupid such an important ability can be so fickle in its success.
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On June 08 2010 16:01 Shiladie wrote:
I fully support the current results of the poll terran is the most powerfull, and will continue to have the revelations that happened with mech. Where terran finds a new build and rolls everything with it. The fact is terran is currently the hardest race to master, but blizzard is balancing around the fact people have it 75% figured out, vs the people who are sitting at 95% figured out on zerg or protoss (numbers out of my ass, but you get the picture.)
I believe he nailed it right in the head right there.
Due to its complexity and total synergy Terran has the best transitions and by far the most potential.
It is a race worthy of a 2010 RTS game, while the other 2 races seem like something pretty silly from the black and white era of video-games.
The main issue is the sheer linearity of Zerg and Protoss that will sooner or later cap them at a mediocre stage, while brilliant terran players will have so many things to explore.
The problem is not whether Terran is OP or not. The problem is as a whole Terran performs beautifully in terms of unit roles, comps and transitions while Zerg and Protoss feel very uni-dimensional
I believe this issue will have an impact in about 5-6 months after the release when a train of Terran nerfs will start coming into play. Not because Terran are overpowered but most likely because Zerg and Protoss wont be able to keep up with the ingenuity and unpredictability of Terran builds.
The solutions: diversify those other two races more. A bit too late for it at this stage, sadly.
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I agree, I really hope they don't nerf Terran, but rather workout how to make Protoss/Zerg more flexible in the midgame onwards. Protoss is great up until about the 12min mark. Protoss need to commit to a tech tree and from there if you get it wrong it's gg. Not immediately, but it's mostly inevitable.
With Zerg, they start off on the back foot, dominate the midgame, and they just hit a brick wall in the late game. I think a couple small tweaks could fix protoss, but Zerg require a lot more work and probably a new unit (or in my opinion, switching hydra to t1.5 and roach to t2, and making it über).
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Strongest: Terran
Upgraded Bioball is brutal, and Mech vs Zerg is ridiculous. You can't fight a Terran player head on, you have to burrow (and if the Terran player is smart and scans or brings a Raven you're SOL).
Sensor towers are ridiculous. For such a low cost and build time you're able to practically see the entire map. I get that Zerg can kind of do the same thing with creep, but they have to actually get out there and do it. A terran can just turtle and add a tower in their main and natural and see 50% of the map.
Weakest: Zerg
Lack of diverse units makes it a generic fight most of the time. Terran gets so many bonuses vs all of our units it's nuts... Thors destroy Mutas. Tanks destroy Hydras, Zerglings, Banelings, and to some extent Roaches.
I love the fast tech switches, but a Terran player builds a starport and can build Banshees, Ravens, Vikings, Medivacs or Battlecruisers. A Zerg player builds a spire and you know he is going for Mutas (Unless you have Air or Collosus).
I guess what it comes down to is, you know exactly what a Zerg player is going to do before he does it if you scout his buildings (and with scan, a Terran player can do it from the safety of his base). See roach den? He's going roaches. See gas and spawning pool? He's going speedings. See a baneling nest? He's going baneling bust. It's too predictable and easy to tell exactly what they are doing and be able to counter that as Protoss or Terran.
On the other side of the coin, Terran builds a Barracks with a Tech lab.. is he going Reaper, Murader or Stimmed marines? Or is he going seige tanks and is going to lift off the barracks? The diverseness of any building, any add on, is nuts and you can't tell what he is doing until he's already begun building units.
Not to mention the fact that scouting ZvT is nearly impossible early game, the only time you can do it is after Lair with either Overseer or Mutas. So every ZvT game is either fast expand and rush to Mutas or 1 base baneling bust which is no fun after a while.
I agree with okrane, Zerg isn't diverse enough and doesn't have enough units to make it a fun, viable race at the moment. It's unfortunate that our strongest and coolest units are either the Roach or Baneling... and Banelings are so ineffective 90% of the time, it's no wonder some Zergs just spam roaches (and no wonder they nerfed them).
Oh and don't forget the fact that our Tier 3 units suck. Ultras are a joke 90% of the time (ok, 98% of the time), and Broodlords are decent vs ground but against anyone with air (or a Terran with Vikings and Thors) you're screwed. How can such a huge investment and time sink be so useless? (Also, Broodlords animations are soooo effing boring. Spend a day and make some cool animation or something.)
I don't know how to fix Zerg. Maybe bring back Lurkers, give Zerg burrow at Hatchery level, let burrowed units go past buildings (which just makes sense, or give burrowed movable units like the roach or infestor the ability to go past cliffs like a Reaper.. which also just makes sense.. because if I was underground burrowing and I hit a cliff.. I wouldnt care, I'd keep moving forward and then burrow up... the fact that a cliff wall or a building on top of ground matters to a burrowed unit is beyond my comprehension), or make it harder for a Terran player to just faceroll a zerg.
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On June 08 2010 17:32 Brokengamer wrote:
Ultralisk+cracklings+infestors rape T mech as long as you dont engage them on choke points.. There just wasn't enough beta time since patch 14(ultra buff) for many zerg players to discover this. Just my 2 cents.. low diamond zerg.
Wtf are you talking about. What mech have you been playing.
4 or 5 hellions with ignitors protect the thors completely from cracklings. Not to mention siege tanks with uber intelligent ai targeting. Unsieged tanks and thors will rape your ultras.
Mech hard counters the fuck out of everything zerg if its done right, and its not hard to do right
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I think debating why a race is the best/worst is rather silly because its probably a bit different for everyone.
That said, Terran kicks my ass more often and in more ways than the other races. As a poll is simply a collection of subjective opinions.. I voted Terran as the strongest.
But I think debating the issue is mostly worthless.
A better poll would be "Which race do you lose too most often" and "Which race is the easiest for you to defeat"
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I used to feel somewhat hopeless against terran but if you scout starports or a factory a nydus with cracklings roaches or hydras can easily take out a terran early game, which is the only way to succeed in defeating them if they have any skill. Midgame/late game terran is out of control strong,
Most people reply with "expand your zerg, expand, expand!"
Terran have scans and marauders which make map control easy. A small group of marauders with stim can destroy a hatch before my units can destroy them.
So for those of you that are losing to terran mid and late game, prevent them from gaining an unbeatable force. You can nydus out of tank range and rip through a terran base, their block in reassures them safety wise
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@above:
Now I understand why so many people think why Zerg is the "weakest race"! Its because they compare the units.
But the thing is: Zerg isnt about units. Zerg is about Zerg!
yes, the zerg race doesnt have strong counter units (besides the corruptor!). but they arent designed at all to do that!
most of the zerg units have one or more purposes:
zerglings, roaches, mutas, banelings are designed to harrass. fast/stealthy cheap units that can quickly dispatch any kind of weak defense and destroy groups of workers in seconds by just swarming them. the masses of overlords allows for permanent dropping all over the place and nydus worms can stream whole armies behind enemy defenses.
hydras, queens, crawlers overlords are very effective defensive units that either love and or generate creep. everyone of them is mobile so you are not stuck with their positioning.
infestors and corruptors are the nightmare of any mid/lategame army that uses big units. infestors might be tricky but they are 1A harassers at the same time if they manage to burrow move into the enemy mineral lines.
ultras and broodlords are designed to distract enemy fire and to destroy buildings and static defenses with ease.
all this is very different from the terrans. terran units are designed to support eachother and to fight in a certain tactical way. they are about positioning and controling the battlefield much more defensively. If they commit too much to drops/pushes/harassing then the Zerg can send some cheap and fast units all over the terrans base.
protoss are somewhat in between the others. they have not quite as much AoE and counterunits as the terrans and not quite as much mobility as the Zerg. most of the protoss units are very offensive but they must commit to pushes to be effective.
think about it.
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On June 09 2010 01:24 Dremic wrote:
I used to feel somewhat hopeless against terran but if you scout starports or a factory a nydus with cracklings roaches or hydras can easily take out a terran early game, which is the only way to succeed in defeating them if they have any skill. Midgame/late game terran is out of control strong,
Most people reply with "expand your zerg, expand, expand!"
Terran have scans and marauders which make map control easy. A small group of marauders with stim can destroy a hatch before my units can destroy them.
So for those of you that are losing to terran mid and late game, prevent them from gaining an unbeatable force. You can nydus out of tank range and rip through a terran base, their block in reassures them safety wise
I find it funny that people always say "expand more" to zerg players, as if expanding was something you could do any time for no cost. Lolz. Expanding takes resources and time and makes you very very vulnerable. Plus, as zerg your not done with just the expansion itself, you must construct your creep highway as well. Terrans simply build ther CC in base and fly out when ready, Protoss warp in Nexus, Gas and a Pylon at the same time. Maybe Pylon plus cannons first. While Terran and Protoss can do pretty much anything from one base early on, Zerg are almost forced to expand. Thats predictable beyond measure and a huge weakness.
I hope Blizz will fix that or someone proves me wrong by creating more 1 base builds for zerg that last until the mid game and don't suck.
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EPT
