• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
TeamLiquid Liquipedia LiquidDota LiquidLegends
EDT 06:58
CEST 12:58
KST 19:58
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL14] Ro24 Preview Pt2: Speedrunning1WTL 2022 Summer - Playoffs Preview4Farewell CCL: Season 4 Recap1WTL 2022 Summer - Regular Season Awards + Week 119[ASL14] Ro24 Preview Pt1: Long Awaited15
Community News
ESL Open Cup #135: ByuN, MaxPax, Solar win0Code Season 3 (2022) - RO20 groups announced61GSL S3 2022 Qualifier Cast (AfreecaTV)2Team NV to disband after WTL 2022 Summer26[TSL 9] Live finals update - Neeb, TIME, Barcrafts16
StarCraft 2
General
Post WTL 2022 Summer Transfer Season Code Season 3 (2022) - RO20 groups announced Team NV to disband after WTL 2022 Summer 2022 GSL S2 Chatting Event ESL Open Cup #135: ByuN, MaxPax, Solar win
Tourneys
ITaX Trovo Series#26 - ByuN, Rogue, soO & Cure AfreecaTV Theatre of Dreams ($5,600) Announcing $5,000 G-FUEL Gladiators' Cup [WTL 2022] Summer - Playoffs LTK Invitational Team League
Strategy
PvT macro builds Terran Mule Timing wankery What should I try to work on to improve my TvZ Maru Offensive Widow Mine Drop
Custom Maps
StarLance | Extension Mod – Multiplayer LotV [M](4) Typhoon [A] SC Real Scale
External Content
Mutation # 330 Ulnar New Year Mutation # 329 Attrition Warfare Mutation # 328 Overclocked Mutation # 327 Temple of Rebirth
Brood War
General
[ASL14] Ro24 Preview Pt2: Speedrunning The future of starcraft broodwar BSL Season 15 - Continental Championships [ASL14] Ro24 Preview Pt1: Long Awaited BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[ASL14] Ro24 Group D [RCG 2021] Final Bracket - August 13 & 14 6pm CEST [CPL8] Coach Pupil League-End Of Season Statistics [ASL14] Ro24 Group C
Strategy
PvT advise for noobs Battery control [PvP] How to defend vs. 2 gate zealot into nexus Project: Strat Update
Other Games
General Games
Diablo IV Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Final Fantasy XIV Total War: Warhammer III
Dota 2
Official Dota and Chess General Discussion PGL Arlington Major [DPC 21-22] Tour 3 Discussion/LR TL.net migration megathread + LiquidDota archive
League of Legends
[Summer Split] LoL Esports General Discussion [Patch Notes] Release General Discussion
Heroes of the Storm
HotS: WP and Funny Moments Farewell CCL: Season 4 Recap Time of the Season: X-Cup Summer Preview The New Kings of Paris: MCC Finals Recap
Hearthstone
TL Mafia
Chezinu streak(s) Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread British Empire Mini Mafia II
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Coronavirus and You NASA and the Private Sector YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
The Flash Fan Club The herO Fan Club! INnoVation Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion Anime Discussion Thread [TV] HBO's Westworld
Sports
2022 - 2023 Football Thread NBA General Discussion Formula 1 Discussion McBoner: A hockey love story 2021 - 2022 Football Thread
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread The Ultimate Mouse Thread Windows won't boot from cloned SSD
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Namkraft's ASL 14 ENG casts…
namkraft
Regarding teenagers and …
mantequilla
New EG Roster
cmsimon
Programming Without Addera…
codonbyte
Royal Tyrell Museum in Drumhe…
JimmiC
Great mix of RTS and tu…
AiHEADHUNTER
Chicken shit
Starlightsun
Montenegro Tower Construction …
Tak3r
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1276 users

Blizzard vs. KeSPA

Forum Index > Closed
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 8 9 10 Next All
johnlee
Profile Joined June 2009
United States242 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-18 06:18:51
February 18 2010 05:32 GMT
#1
*First post!* edit: It says I have 3 posts.. so I guess comments count... didn't know.. so noob. sorry
Hey everyone! And yay for SC2 BETA! I'm extremely excited and anticipate a lot from this new game. I've played SC since 1999 but I didn't get a beta invite so I was pretty sad Felt betrayed.

Nonetheless, I'm still very excited. But I'm worried at the same time. How well will SC2 adapt in Korea where SCBW has already established such a dominant position in eSPORTS?

I've been hearing many rumours of how Blizzard was looking to get fees from KeSPA for airing SC2 on TV.

So, I decided to start a post and ask what YOU guys think: Is it alright for Blizzard to be asking for fees from KeSPA? (Aside from all the copyrights, actual games bought to be installed in computers)

My opinion is that Blizzard is being a bit greedy here. They’ve seen the extent to which Korea has expanded BW’s popularity and see a huge possibility of even more profit by taking advantage of the fact that KeSPA is "mass handling" their product.

IMHO, to expect Korea to pay fees to put SC2 on TV, is like expecting to be paid for your own advertisements. KeSPA is not the only one benefitting when popularizing SC – Blizzard gets a NATIONWIDE (and even more so by close follow ups by organizations like TL) advertisement of their game for FREE every day. Had it not been for KeSPA's usage of SC, Blizzard would never have been able to popularize SCBW to such an extent we have now.

Also, if KeSPA is forced to pay, the free uploaded KeSPA VODs that we enjoy from generous uploaders will cease to exist. That's.. omg... bad..

Blizzard should be careful and try not to bite off more than it can chew… they may end up losing KeSPA’s support of SC2 – and that would never be good for them.

Anyway, these are just my opinions, and I want to hear yours!
----------------------------------

EDIT:

So... this is pretty cool... it's only been a few minutes since the post and I'm getting an influx of replies... LOL I have nothing to do so I'm just reading the comments..........
Bore
DanceDance
Profile Joined November 2008
226 Posts
February 18 2010 05:38 GMT
#2
Blizzard spent years and years of hard work creating this game and they should get some kind of royalties.
Jonoman92
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
United States9030 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-18 05:43:49
February 18 2010 05:41 GMT
#3
I was amazed upon hearing Blizzard doesn't get anything from the progaming scene in Korea. Of course they should get paid if KeSPA is making money off of their product.

On February 18 2010 14:32 johnlee wrote:
My opinion is that Blizzard is being a bit greedy here. They’ve seen the extent to which Korea has expanded BW’s popularity and see a huge possibility of even more profit by taking advantage of the fact that KeSPA is "mass handling" their product.

I don't get what is greedy about it. If KeSPA can make money off of someone else's game then they should give a cut to the developers.
Deleted User 47542
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
1484 Posts
February 18 2010 05:44 GMT
#4
I think blizzard already earns enough money and should encourage the free televised broadcast of their game which increases the fan base and overall product awareness. Basically, the amount of money Kespa makes is not even a fraction of what blizzard makes.
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
February 18 2010 05:44 GMT
#5
On February 18 2010 14:41 Jonoman92 wrote:
I was amazed upon hearing Blizzard doesn't get anything from the progaming scene in Korea. Of course they should get paid if KeSPA is making money off of their product.

Show nested quote +
On February 18 2010 14:32 johnlee wrote:
My opinion is that Blizzard is being a bit greedy here. They’ve seen the extent to which Korea has expanded BW’s popularity and see a huge possibility of even more profit by taking advantage of the fact that KeSPA is "mass handling" their product.

I don't get what is greedy about it. If KeSPA can make money off of someone else's game then they should give a cut to the developers.


does the Naismith estate get royalties from the NBA?
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
alexanderzero
Profile Joined June 2008
United States659 Posts
February 18 2010 05:47 GMT
#6
It's kind of a hard call. Pro gaming is somewhat analogous to pro sports, but not exactly. For one thing you don't really have to worry about who created most sports like football or basketball, they're just well known games that have been around for so long. I don't really blame Blizzard for wanting a cut, but at the same time the free ads will probably convince a lot of people to buy the game. Blizzard should just run their own tournaments if they want to sell the footage.
I am a tournament organizazer.
Pyrrhuloxia
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States6700 Posts
February 18 2010 05:50 GMT
#7
On February 18 2010 14:44 Mindcrime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2010 14:41 Jonoman92 wrote:
I was amazed upon hearing Blizzard doesn't get anything from the progaming scene in Korea. Of course they should get paid if KeSPA is making money off of their product.

On February 18 2010 14:32 johnlee wrote:
My opinion is that Blizzard is being a bit greedy here. They’ve seen the extent to which Korea has expanded BW’s popularity and see a huge possibility of even more profit by taking advantage of the fact that KeSPA is "mass handling" their product.

I don't get what is greedy about it. If KeSPA can make money off of someone else's game then they should give a cut to the developers.


does the Naismith estate get royalties from the NBA?

That's a good case to bring up, but I think Starcraft is a bit different because its not just a basic ruleset that the nba has changed considerably, its a game with voice acting, and copyrighted art assets and much more. In the NBA's case, Naismith's game is quite a bit different. It originally didn't have dribbling and had wicker baskets with no holes in the bottom, for instance. About as different as Command and Conquer from Starcraft. If Kespa made their own rts, there wouldn't be any problem.
Pyrrhuloxia
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States6700 Posts
February 18 2010 05:51 GMT
#8
On February 18 2010 14:47 alexanderzero wrote:
Blizzard should just run their own tournaments if they want to sell the footage.

Hopefully they plan to expand their GOM partnership and do that...
lostshard
Profile Joined July 2009
United States95 Posts
February 18 2010 05:52 GMT
#9
On February 18 2010 14:44 superbabosheki wrote:
I think blizzard already earns enough money and should encourage the free televised broadcast of their game which increases the fan base and overall product awareness. Basically, the amount of money Kespa makes is not even a fraction of what blizzard makes.


So if a small start up that had a game that rose to e-sport's fame should not get any compensation either? How about one person who made a super awesome jingle... but someone else profits off of it in a commercial?

Just because Kespa might not make a fraction of what Blizzard makes is irrelevant. They are just flexing their rights in owning the IP. How that might affect the sport or the exposure is different ball all together.
The Insane
chobopeon
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
United States7342 Posts
February 18 2010 05:53 GMT
#10
I don't really have a good enough grasp of the discussions to make a call either way but -Artosis thinks KeSPA should pay.

I probably should have asked him to go more indepth on the problem but it was like 9am and he was at work ;p
:O
Jonoman92
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
United States9030 Posts
February 18 2010 05:54 GMT
#11
On February 18 2010 14:50 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2010 14:44 Mindcrime wrote:
On February 18 2010 14:41 Jonoman92 wrote:
I was amazed upon hearing Blizzard doesn't get anything from the progaming scene in Korea. Of course they should get paid if KeSPA is making money off of their product.

On February 18 2010 14:32 johnlee wrote:
My opinion is that Blizzard is being a bit greedy here. They’ve seen the extent to which Korea has expanded BW’s popularity and see a huge possibility of even more profit by taking advantage of the fact that KeSPA is "mass handling" their product.

I don't get what is greedy about it. If KeSPA can make money off of someone else's game then they should give a cut to the developers.


does the Naismith estate get royalties from the NBA?

That's a good case to bring up, but I think Starcraft is a bit different because its not just a basic ruleset that the nba has changed considerably, its a game with voice acting, and copyrighted art assets and much more. In the NBA's case, Naismith's game is quite a bit different. It originally didn't have dribbling and had wicker baskets with no holes in the bottom, for instance. About as different as Command and Conquer from Starcraft. If Kespa made their own rts, there wouldn't be any problem.


agreed
Go0g3n
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Russian Federation410 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-18 06:10:42
February 18 2010 05:54 GMT
#12
You got it wrong. KeSPA is a ruling agency (body) it doesn't pay anything to anybody. It's run by representative of Pro Teams and one each from OGN and MBC channels. They are the ones who will have to pay royalties for every single commercial broadcast involving StarCraft II, let alone all the sub-media that goes with it.

In US Blizzard would be entitled to a huge amount of royalties payments, in Korea it's enough to own a legal copy of the game to broadcast. Blizzard already tried to deal with relevant Korean authorities, but they were sent to "deal with KeSPA". They also tried to deal with MBC/OGN separately, failed there as well. But, and it's a big but, they can't broadcast games played over the web, i.e. on Battle.net, as it requires a completely different international license, which they won't get. Since there's no Lan - no broadcasts for now.

KeSPA answered by killing GOM. Blizzard was heavily sponsoring it, as it was getting more and more popular, probably aiming to build a platform for future SC2 broadcasts, leagues etc, they were shut down by decision of the majority KeSPA teams to not participate in GOM.

As said by artosis in a recent interview - it's a dead end with a lot of money at stake.

I covered all this in three KeSPA/Blizzard articles on GG.net

Another thing that's important is that Blizzard did absolutely nothing for StarCraft in terms of it's promotion and huge Korean and e-Sports success. They've even stopped supporting it after WC3 came out. It was KeSPA (at the time KPGA) who built the billion dollar industry of Korean StarCraft gaming and broadcasting.

On the other hand you have to realize that StarCraft broadcast is immensely profitable in Korea, be it on OGN, MBC, GOM, whatever. It costs next to nothing to create a 2+ hour broadcast that beats everything in 18-34 ratings - the most valued by advertisers. The costs are so low they can be only compared with a cheap-ass 30min/week game show, rather than 15hr/week of StarCraft broadcasts.
Adeeler
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United Kingdom764 Posts
February 18 2010 05:56 GMT
#13
To help globalise SC2 Blizzard should retain overall control and just take a royalty fee for broadcasting on television/cable/or any not for free service.
InToTheWannaB
Profile Joined September 2002
United States4770 Posts
February 18 2010 05:57 GMT
#14
If I was a Judge i'd back blizzard in terms of letter of the law. On moral grounds however I feel for Kespa. You build something from nothing you feel ownership of it. I rather Blizzard just let Kespa do there thing, but I understand Blizzard postion.
When the spirit is not altogether slain, great loss teaches men and women to desire greatly, both for themselves and for others.
jaawshh
Profile Joined February 2010
United States2 Posts
February 18 2010 05:57 GMT
#15
I agree. Blizzard should be lucky that KeSPA even revolutionized their game. Sure it's been popular since it's debut, but it was completely revolutionized after being handled by a professional organization. People had players to look up to, professional strategies to examine, and the ability to see their favorite game played on a massive scale. Hell, I bought the game because of KeSPA. After hearing my friends talk about it for so long, I figured there must be some worth in this game.

All of this to say, Blizzard should be thankful that there is even such a huge market that already exists for SC2. Without KeSPA, SCBW would never have reached its peak in popularity, and SC2 would not have such a marketable base already.

Requiring fees for airing SC2 on television is not only a greedy move by Blizzard, but may also hurt relations with such a valuable partner. KeSPA may be making money off of SC2, but consider how much Blizzard gains from this.

Business is all about trade-offs. Is it really worth it to risk a relationship with such an important asset? And is it worth it to start commotion with an organization that's benefits could never match your own?
Tazan_0
Profile Joined May 2009
United States63 Posts
February 18 2010 05:58 GMT
#16
If it wasn't for Kespa, I wouldn't be buying sc2 when it comes out, and im not even korean or anything like that. I like blizzard, but on this they need to just shut the fuck up.
pwnd?
Gedrah
Profile Joined February 2010
465 Posts
February 18 2010 05:59 GMT
#17
If Blizzard manages to take a cut from Korean eSports that cut will come out of your pocket. You currently don't pay to watch VODs and that's seemingly because someone out there is paying for them and then uploading them across imaginary copyright "boundaries" and that Kespa doesn't care enough to put a stop to it. If Kespa has to pay Blizzard to have these tournaments then I'm sure Blizzard will crack down on every form of free VOD distribution (at least with regard to games that they're getting a cut from) unless, as many of you idealists are keen to believe, they choose to support or at least turn a blind eye on free VOD distribution for the sake of the fans. I'd hope that as well. But if the plans Blizzard announced at Blizzcon 09 are any indication, they intend to continue involving real-world currency micro-transaction in their games from now on and that probably includes in-UI pay-per-view VODs via battle.net. If they go with this strategy they may put KESPA out of the loop entirely. Unrealistic, I know, and I'm stretching on a lot of this, but hey... Here's to radical thought?
What is a dickfour?
Chairman Ray
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States11899 Posts
February 18 2010 06:05 GMT
#18
I'm not going to talk about what is right, but more so what is the best course of action for each party.

Assuming Blizzard imposing fees is their best course of action.

KeSPA can either pay the fees sacrificing a certain percentage of their profits, broadcast Starcraft anyways since Blizzard cannot sue a foreign company, or they can retaliate by boycotting Starcraft 2, or at least the broadcasting of Starcraft 2 in Korea unless Blizzard pays them.

If KeSPA plays ball and pays the fees, they will profit off broadcasting SC2, and so will Blizzard. Both parties are at a small gain.

If KeSPA continues to broadcast SC2 regardless of fees, Blizzard cannot do anything, so this is a better alternative for KeSPA. The only downside is that their relations are weakened. The questions here is, does Blizzard benefit more from KeSPA or does KeSPA benefit more from Blizzard? It's probably neither since Blizzard can just do their own thing for foreigners while KeSPA does their thing for the competitive community so their relations really don't matter much. Overall, there's no change in the status quo in regards to profits.

Now what is KeSPA retaliates and threatens to boycott SC2 in Korea? The question here is, does Blizzard or KeSPA have more influence over Starcraft 2? From what we have seen from previous Blizzard games, the Korean scene is FAR more important towards the development of the gaming community. KeSPA's cooperation may be the difference between SC2 ending up like D2, or SC2 ending up like SCBW. Without SC2 in Korea, the profits lost by Blizzard greatly outweigh the profits lost by KeSPA. In this scenario, Blizzard's best course of action would to either renegotiate towards the status quo, or pay KeSPA.

In the end, Blizzard loses; therefore, imposing fees on KeSPA is not the best course of action.
meegrean
Profile Joined May 2008
Thailand7699 Posts
February 18 2010 06:10 GMT
#19
Blizzard shouldn't get a cut from Kespa. I mean, Blizzard is already going to make a lot of money from the guaranteed sales anyway. The progaming scene in Korea is seriously like a huge free advertisement for Blizzard. If Blizzard wants to make additional money, they should do it their own way by making their own tournaments or something.
Brood War loyalist
ToeJam
Profile Joined April 2009
United States282 Posts
February 18 2010 06:11 GMT
#20
Blizzard will definitely be putting their hand in tournaments, so absolutely the competition will have to pay. They didn't tailor this game for competitive play just so KeSPA can profit off of it. They put such a monstrous amount of work into it and will continue to.
1 2 3 4 5 8 9 10 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Afreeca Starleague
10:00
Round of 24 / Group D
Soulkey vs TBD
JyJ vs sSak
Afreeca ASL 9717
AfreecaTV YouTube
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Reynor 972
Harstem 332
Livibee 273
ROOTSuperNova 254
ProTech130
SC2Nice 42
Dragon 34
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 21192
Zeus 4762
BeSt 3882
Horang2 3039
ZerO 1886
Hyuk 1657
GuemChi 1385
PianO 1237
Rush 728
Larva 678
[ Show more ]
Killer 560
Mong 364
EffOrt 203
Sharp 190
Sacsri 71
Oya187 45
Sexy 26
zelot 19
Iris 3
Dota 2
XcaliburYe1049
febbydoto140
KheZu6
Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
officialf0rest3410
pimpcsgo2129
Heroes of the Storm
AxAlicia27
Other Games
singsing2378
crisheroes925
DeMusliM825
Happy541
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 313
Dota 2
BeyondTheSummit258
StarCraft 2
Esl_sc2191
ESL.tv191
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• angryscii 30
• Light_VIP 26
• Kozan
• Alpha X_
• aXEnki
• Poblha
• intothetv
• Gussbus
• Migwel
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamez Trovo
• Laughngamez YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
• sscaitournament2
• STPLYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV1065
League of Legends
• Jankos182
Upcoming Events
WardiTV Summer Champion…
1h 2m
ByuN vs Rattata
Cure vs Reynor
BeAsT Cup
6h 2m
GSL Qualifier
12h 2m
Creator vs GuMiho
soO vs GuMiho
RagnaroK vs Ryung
Scarlett vs Ryung
Astrea vs KeeN
Solar vs KeeN
Reynor vs Zoun
Zoun vs SpeCial
Sparkling Tuna Cup
23h 2m
Afreeca Starleague
23h 2m
Snow vs HiyA
Shine vs Jaedong
GSL Qualifier
1d 12h
DongRaeGu vs ByuN
DongRaeGu vs Armani
Armani vs Dream
SpeCial vs GuMiho
Armani vs SpeCial
Scarlett vs Cure
Classic vs Nice
Nice vs Prince
Afreeca Starleague
1d 23h
Rush vs free
Mong vs Horang2
BeAsT Cup
2 days
Online Event
2 days
ESPOT SC2 Circuit
4 days
[ Show More ]
BSL 2v2 ProLeague
4 days
ESL Pro Tour
4 days
ESL Pro Tour
6 days
ESL Pro Tour
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Ultimate Battle: RoyaL vs ZerO
WTL 2022 Summer
Community Clash League S4
WePlay Academy League S5

Ongoing

GAN Race Survival Season 5
KCM Ladies Race Survival 2022 Season 3
ASL Season 14
KCM Race Survival 2022 Season 3
BSL Season 15: ChoboLeague
BSL Season 15: HasuLeague
Luck Over Strength
FS Mania
STL37
Screw Me Up Bro
LASL Season 14
CSL season 6 Summer Cup
Future Cup 5 (U18)
DSSL 15
TSL 9
WardiTV Summer 2022
NGS Storm Division S5

Upcoming

Deathfate Pro League 4
Deathfate Pro Team League 2
StarClash 0828 CHN vs KOR Week10
StarClash 0821 CHN vs KOR Week9
DDS36: Sziky vs. Zhanhun
IEM Katowice 2023
HSC XXII
2022 GSL: ST 2
DH Masters Atlanta
2022 GSL S3: Code S
Gladiators' Cup
Heroes International
Heroes Int. - NA LC Qual.
Heroes Int. - NA Qual. 2
Heroes Int. - EU LC Qual.
Heroes Int. - EU Qual. 2
Heroes Int. - NA Qual. 1
Heroes Int. - EU Qual. 1
IEM Rio Major 2022
IEM Rio 2022: AME RMR
IEM Rio 2022: EU RMR B
IEM Rio 2022: EU RMR A
IEM Rio 2022: APAC RMR
ESL Challenger Melbourne 2022
ESL Pro League Season 16
ESL Challenger League S42 EU
BLAST Premier Fall Groups
ESL Challenger League S42 AP
ESL Challenger League S42 NA
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2022 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.