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*First post!* edit: It says I have 3 posts.. so I guess comments count... didn't know.. so noob. sorry 
Hey everyone! And yay for SC2 BETA! I'm extremely excited and anticipate a lot from this new game. I've played SC since 1999 but I didn't get a beta invite so I was pretty sad  Felt betrayed.
Nonetheless, I'm still very excited. But I'm worried at the same time. How well will SC2 adapt in Korea where SCBW has already established such a dominant position in eSPORTS?
I've been hearing many rumours of how Blizzard was looking to get fees from KeSPA for airing SC2 on TV.
So, I decided to start a post and ask what YOU guys think: Is it alright for Blizzard to be asking for fees from KeSPA? (Aside from all the copyrights, actual games bought to be installed in computers)
My opinion is that Blizzard is being a bit greedy here. They’ve seen the extent to which Korea has expanded BW’s popularity and see a huge possibility of even more profit by taking advantage of the fact that KeSPA is "mass handling" their product.
IMHO, to expect Korea to pay fees to put SC2 on TV, is like expecting to be paid for your own advertisements. KeSPA is not the only one benefitting when popularizing SC – Blizzard gets a NATIONWIDE (and even more so by close follow ups by organizations like TL) advertisement of their game for FREE every day. Had it not been for KeSPA's usage of SC, Blizzard would never have been able to popularize SCBW to such an extent we have now.
Also, if KeSPA is forced to pay, the free uploaded KeSPA VODs that we enjoy from generous uploaders will cease to exist. That's.. omg... bad..
Blizzard should be careful and try not to bite off more than it can chew… they may end up losing KeSPA’s support of SC2 – and that would never be good for them.
Anyway, these are just my opinions, and I want to hear yours!
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EDIT:
So... this is pretty cool... it's only been a few minutes since the post and I'm getting an influx of replies... LOL I have nothing to do so I'm just reading the comments..........
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Blizzard spent years and years of hard work creating this game and they should get some kind of royalties.
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I was amazed upon hearing Blizzard doesn't get anything from the progaming scene in Korea. Of course they should get paid if KeSPA is making money off of their product.
On February 18 2010 14:32 johnlee wrote:
My opinion is that Blizzard is being a bit greedy here. They’ve seen the extent to which Korea has expanded BW’s popularity and see a huge possibility of even more profit by taking advantage of the fact that KeSPA is "mass handling" their product.
I don't get what is greedy about it. If KeSPA can make money off of someone else's game then they should give a cut to the developers.
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I think blizzard already earns enough money and should encourage the free televised broadcast of their game which increases the fan base and overall product awareness. Basically, the amount of money Kespa makes is not even a fraction of what blizzard makes.
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On February 18 2010 14:41 Jonoman92 wrote:I was amazed upon hearing Blizzard doesn't get anything from the progaming scene in Korea. Of course they should get paid if KeSPA is making money off of their product. Show nested quote +On February 18 2010 14:32 johnlee wrote:
My opinion is that Blizzard is being a bit greedy here. They’ve seen the extent to which Korea has expanded BW’s popularity and see a huge possibility of even more profit by taking advantage of the fact that KeSPA is "mass handling" their product.
I don't get what is greedy about it. If KeSPA can make money off of someone else's game then they should give a cut to the developers.
does the Naismith estate get royalties from the NBA?
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It's kind of a hard call. Pro gaming is somewhat analogous to pro sports, but not exactly. For one thing you don't really have to worry about who created most sports like football or basketball, they're just well known games that have been around for so long. I don't really blame Blizzard for wanting a cut, but at the same time the free ads will probably convince a lot of people to buy the game. Blizzard should just run their own tournaments if they want to sell the footage.
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On February 18 2010 14:44 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2010 14:41 Jonoman92 wrote:I was amazed upon hearing Blizzard doesn't get anything from the progaming scene in Korea. Of course they should get paid if KeSPA is making money off of their product. On February 18 2010 14:32 johnlee wrote:
My opinion is that Blizzard is being a bit greedy here. They’ve seen the extent to which Korea has expanded BW’s popularity and see a huge possibility of even more profit by taking advantage of the fact that KeSPA is "mass handling" their product.
I don't get what is greedy about it. If KeSPA can make money off of someone else's game then they should give a cut to the developers. does the Naismith estate get royalties from the NBA?
That's a good case to bring up, but I think Starcraft is a bit different because its not just a basic ruleset that the nba has changed considerably, its a game with voice acting, and copyrighted art assets and much more. In the NBA's case, Naismith's game is quite a bit different. It originally didn't have dribbling and had wicker baskets with no holes in the bottom, for instance. About as different as Command and Conquer from Starcraft. If Kespa made their own rts, there wouldn't be any problem.
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On February 18 2010 14:47 alexanderzero wrote:
Blizzard should just run their own tournaments if they want to sell the footage.
Hopefully they plan to expand their GOM partnership and do that...
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On February 18 2010 14:44 superbabosheki wrote:
I think blizzard already earns enough money and should encourage the free televised broadcast of their game which increases the fan base and overall product awareness. Basically, the amount of money Kespa makes is not even a fraction of what blizzard makes.
So if a small start up that had a game that rose to e-sport's fame should not get any compensation either? How about one person who made a super awesome jingle... but someone else profits off of it in a commercial?
Just because Kespa might not make a fraction of what Blizzard makes is irrelevant. They are just flexing their rights in owning the IP. How that might affect the sport or the exposure is different ball all together.
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I don't really have a good enough grasp of the discussions to make a call either way but -Artosis thinks KeSPA should pay.
I probably should have asked him to go more indepth on the problem but it was like 9am and he was at work ;p
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On February 18 2010 14:50 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2010 14:44 Mindcrime wrote:On February 18 2010 14:41 Jonoman92 wrote:I was amazed upon hearing Blizzard doesn't get anything from the progaming scene in Korea. Of course they should get paid if KeSPA is making money off of their product. On February 18 2010 14:32 johnlee wrote:
My opinion is that Blizzard is being a bit greedy here. They’ve seen the extent to which Korea has expanded BW’s popularity and see a huge possibility of even more profit by taking advantage of the fact that KeSPA is "mass handling" their product.
I don't get what is greedy about it. If KeSPA can make money off of someone else's game then they should give a cut to the developers. does the Naismith estate get royalties from the NBA? That's a good case to bring up, but I think Starcraft is a bit different because its not just a basic ruleset that the nba has changed considerably, its a game with voice acting, and copyrighted art assets and much more. In the NBA's case, Naismith's game is quite a bit different. It originally didn't have dribbling and had wicker baskets with no holes in the bottom, for instance. About as different as Command and Conquer from Starcraft. If Kespa made their own rts, there wouldn't be any problem.
agreed
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Russian Federation410 Posts
You got it wrong. KeSPA is a ruling agency (body) it doesn't pay anything to anybody. It's run by representative of Pro Teams and one each from OGN and MBC channels. They are the ones who will have to pay royalties for every single commercial broadcast involving StarCraft II, let alone all the sub-media that goes with it.
In US Blizzard would be entitled to a huge amount of royalties payments, in Korea it's enough to own a legal copy of the game to broadcast. Blizzard already tried to deal with relevant Korean authorities, but they were sent to "deal with KeSPA". They also tried to deal with MBC/OGN separately, failed there as well. But, and it's a big but, they can't broadcast games played over the web, i.e. on Battle.net, as it requires a completely different international license, which they won't get. Since there's no Lan - no broadcasts for now.
KeSPA answered by killing GOM. Blizzard was heavily sponsoring it, as it was getting more and more popular, probably aiming to build a platform for future SC2 broadcasts, leagues etc, they were shut down by decision of the majority KeSPA teams to not participate in GOM.
As said by artosis in a recent interview - it's a dead end with a lot of money at stake.
I covered all this in three KeSPA/Blizzard articles on GG.net
Another thing that's important is that Blizzard did absolutely nothing for StarCraft in terms of it's promotion and huge Korean and e-Sports success. They've even stopped supporting it after WC3 came out. It was KeSPA (at the time KPGA) who built the billion dollar industry of Korean StarCraft gaming and broadcasting.
On the other hand you have to realize that StarCraft broadcast is immensely profitable in Korea, be it on OGN, MBC, GOM, whatever. It costs next to nothing to create a 2+ hour broadcast that beats everything in 18-34 ratings - the most valued by advertisers. The costs are so low they can be only compared with a cheap-ass 30min/week game show, rather than 15hr/week of StarCraft broadcasts.
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To help globalise SC2 Blizzard should retain overall control and just take a royalty fee for broadcasting on television/cable/or any not for free service.
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If I was a Judge i'd back blizzard in terms of letter of the law. On moral grounds however I feel for Kespa. You build something from nothing you feel ownership of it. I rather Blizzard just let Kespa do there thing, but I understand Blizzard postion.
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I agree. Blizzard should be lucky that KeSPA even revolutionized their game. Sure it's been popular since it's debut, but it was completely revolutionized after being handled by a professional organization. People had players to look up to, professional strategies to examine, and the ability to see their favorite game played on a massive scale. Hell, I bought the game because of KeSPA. After hearing my friends talk about it for so long, I figured there must be some worth in this game.
All of this to say, Blizzard should be thankful that there is even such a huge market that already exists for SC2. Without KeSPA, SCBW would never have reached its peak in popularity, and SC2 would not have such a marketable base already.
Requiring fees for airing SC2 on television is not only a greedy move by Blizzard, but may also hurt relations with such a valuable partner. KeSPA may be making money off of SC2, but consider how much Blizzard gains from this.
Business is all about trade-offs. Is it really worth it to risk a relationship with such an important asset? And is it worth it to start commotion with an organization that's benefits could never match your own?
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If it wasn't for Kespa, I wouldn't be buying sc2 when it comes out, and im not even korean or anything like that. I like blizzard, but on this they need to just shut the fuck up.
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If Blizzard manages to take a cut from Korean eSports that cut will come out of your pocket. You currently don't pay to watch VODs and that's seemingly because someone out there is paying for them and then uploading them across imaginary copyright "boundaries" and that Kespa doesn't care enough to put a stop to it. If Kespa has to pay Blizzard to have these tournaments then I'm sure Blizzard will crack down on every form of free VOD distribution (at least with regard to games that they're getting a cut from) unless, as many of you idealists are keen to believe, they choose to support or at least turn a blind eye on free VOD distribution for the sake of the fans. I'd hope that as well. But if the plans Blizzard announced at Blizzcon 09 are any indication, they intend to continue involving real-world currency micro-transaction in their games from now on and that probably includes in-UI pay-per-view VODs via battle.net. If they go with this strategy they may put KESPA out of the loop entirely. Unrealistic, I know, and I'm stretching on a lot of this, but hey... Here's to radical thought?
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I'm not going to talk about what is right, but more so what is the best course of action for each party.
Assuming Blizzard imposing fees is their best course of action.
KeSPA can either pay the fees sacrificing a certain percentage of their profits, broadcast Starcraft anyways since Blizzard cannot sue a foreign company, or they can retaliate by boycotting Starcraft 2, or at least the broadcasting of Starcraft 2 in Korea unless Blizzard pays them.
If KeSPA plays ball and pays the fees, they will profit off broadcasting SC2, and so will Blizzard. Both parties are at a small gain.
If KeSPA continues to broadcast SC2 regardless of fees, Blizzard cannot do anything, so this is a better alternative for KeSPA. The only downside is that their relations are weakened. The questions here is, does Blizzard benefit more from KeSPA or does KeSPA benefit more from Blizzard? It's probably neither since Blizzard can just do their own thing for foreigners while KeSPA does their thing for the competitive community so their relations really don't matter much. Overall, there's no change in the status quo in regards to profits.
Now what is KeSPA retaliates and threatens to boycott SC2 in Korea? The question here is, does Blizzard or KeSPA have more influence over Starcraft 2? From what we have seen from previous Blizzard games, the Korean scene is FAR more important towards the development of the gaming community. KeSPA's cooperation may be the difference between SC2 ending up like D2, or SC2 ending up like SCBW. Without SC2 in Korea, the profits lost by Blizzard greatly outweigh the profits lost by KeSPA. In this scenario, Blizzard's best course of action would to either renegotiate towards the status quo, or pay KeSPA.
In the end, Blizzard loses; therefore, imposing fees on KeSPA is not the best course of action.
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Blizzard shouldn't get a cut from Kespa. I mean, Blizzard is already going to make a lot of money from the guaranteed sales anyway. The progaming scene in Korea is seriously like a huge free advertisement for Blizzard. If Blizzard wants to make additional money, they should do it their own way by making their own tournaments or something.
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Blizzard will definitely be putting their hand in tournaments, so absolutely the competition will have to pay. They didn't tailor this game for competitive play just so KeSPA can profit off of it. They put such a monstrous amount of work into it and will continue to.
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Well of course this is Blizzards game so they do have the right to ask for fees and that nature for broadcasting progames in korea. HOWEVER, KeSPA has done a good deal (I wouldn't say a ton because not everyone knows about korean esports and starcraft is still pretty damn popular) to give starcraft the recognition it deserves. So that being said I obviously expect Blizzard to keep these terms in effect but what kind of deal are we talking about between KeSPA and Blizzard? Who has the upper hand in this scenario? I guess we will find out when Starcraft 2: Wings of Liberty hits shelves in the summertime wont we :p
Very interesting topic by the way.
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If Blizzard is imposing fees so that they can have their own tournaments become more successful, it's not going to work. The only prestige in entering a world tournament is that the winner can be crowned as the best Starcraft player in the world. Without the cooperation with the Korean scene, winning a world tournament only means that you can beat Idra, woop tee doo.
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fuck yeah make money, where in the world do you see anything that isnt paid for on tv?
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- SC2 will be connecting through battle.net so they are using a blizzard service while casting (not LAN) Whether 3rd party servers pop up will remain to be seen.
- The interviews on G4TV talked a little bit about Blizzard's support for eSports and wanting to make that a big part of the SC2 experience. If Blizzard is supporting these broadcasts (in the form of prizes, achievements, etc) they should be entitled to a piece of the cake, don't you think?
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Does anyone have any clue of the reception Beta is getting in Korea at the moment? Are people talking about it? Do any of them have keys? etc.
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It amuses me that Blizzard talks about supporting eSports and then goes on to try to squelch one of the only established eSports platforms with professional broadcasting capabilities in the world. It seems to me they only care about eSports so much as they can monopolize the profits as all of their decisions in regard to it seem to reflect.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
This has nothing to do with greed lol. It's a company. Companies need to make money. Companies can invest in 5 year long development cycles by having a steady revenue stream (WoW?). Of course KESPA should be paying up - they make MILLIONS per year in profit.
They aren't trying to squelch shit - Valve charges people to broadcast Source. The NFL charges CBS to broadcast matches.
I wish people would stop jumping to these ridiculous conclusions when they have no idea whats even going on.
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So let me get this right, Kespa either pays up to Blizzard to broadcast SC2 or they simply don't pick up SC2, beacuse Blizzard would simply ban their IPs if they'd broadcast without paying, since everything is on battle.net now?
I really don't see kespa picking up SC2. Imean they can either stay with a videogame that is almost considered their national sport and is hugely popular - without paying -- or switch to a game that is most likely to be inferior to SC1 in every aspect but then having to pay Blizzard to broadcast it.
Viewing it from kespas perspective, this seems like a no-brainer? Why change a winning concept?
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
They negotiate a broadcasting license. Obviously i have no idea on the specifics - but it's probably like "Kespa pays X$ per year to broadcast SC2" or "Each league pays X$ per league to broadcast for this year". It's not a case of banning IPs as much as receiving litigation papers.
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I think that it would be much more interisting to have a rational discussion about the South Korean's laws in terms of copyright, I read that that there were some differences with the Western model.
(nb it is obvious that both companies are trying to maximize their profit).
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I think Blizzard have been very nice in not charging for BW so this isn't greedy at all imo.
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thank god the majority agrees with me. Blizzard will not make any money from monthly fees from players. their expenses is pretty big from servers daily maintained. making a profit from kespa is not a big deal since they are the ones responsible for the game. and it will be the only way they will be able to keep this game alive.
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On February 22 2010 02:17 Kennigit wrote:
This has nothing to do with greed lol. It's a company. Companies need to make money. Companies can invest in 5 year long development cycles by having a steady revenue stream (WoW?). Of course KESPA should be paying up - they make MILLIONS per year in profit.
They aren't trying to squelch shit - Valve charges people to broadcast Source. The NFL charges CBS to broadcast matches.
I wish people would stop jumping to these ridiculous conclusions when they have no idea whats even going on.
Blizzard does make money. They do it through their sales.
The NFL in this case would be KeSPA. Blizzard would be more like the person or entity that first invented American Football. That's really a horrible analogy...
I don't see the conclusion as "ridiculous" at all. You pretty much confirmed the conclusion by admitting that it's about money. What is "greed" about if not about money?
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in REAL sports, all those NFL, NHL, NBA, etc. games. NBC/CBS/FOX/ABC they all PAY the agency to broadcast the match.
Blizz wants the same thing, they spent years making this game and it's unfair that another organization just make complete profit off of THEIR work.
Its like you make an app for iphone/ipod but apple makes all the money. This isnt true, the developer gets a large portion of each transaction with Apple getting a smart percent because its their main product. SC2 is Blizzard's product, they dont want all the profit they expect a fee because another company is using their product to make a profit. People keep overestimating Korea too...they aren't the lifeforce of SC2, if you notice WoW - it brings in 1.2 billion in profits a year(which makes it possible to keep their work force and keep making products like SC2, D3, WoW, new mmo, and even the 2 SC2 expansions)...kespa has nothing to do with that. Blizzard has their own leagues and other people who make pvp leagues and whatnot off of it do give blizz a royalty fee. Does Kespa have a part in this? No, in the end - KESPA needs blizzard. Blizzard doesnt NEED Kespa they can do w/e the hell they want and still make it a success
This really isn't even an argument, either Kespa pays or they dont get SC2.
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Whats stopping blizzard from not demanding royalties for sc1? I know they were just being nice in the beginning and didnt require it, but does that mean they cant change their minds?
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On February 22 2010 02:35 HeartOfTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 02:17 Kennigit wrote:
This has nothing to do with greed lol. It's a company. Companies need to make money. Companies can invest in 5 year long development cycles by having a steady revenue stream (WoW?). Of course KESPA should be paying up - they make MILLIONS per year in profit.
They aren't trying to squelch shit - Valve charges people to broadcast Source. The NFL charges CBS to broadcast matches.
I wish people would stop jumping to these ridiculous conclusions when they have no idea whats even going on. Blizzard does make money. They do it through their sales. The NFL in this case would be KeSPA. Blizzard would be more like the person or entity that first invented American Football. That's really a horrible analogy... I don't see the conclusion as "ridiculous" at all. You pretty much confirmed the conclusion by admitting that it's about money. What is "greed" about if not about money?
Greed isn't automatically about making money. Greed is when the desire to make money is taken to a ridiculous extent, often at a huge detriment of the product. Blizzard randomly putting a monthly fee of $40 into SC2 for no reason would be an example of greed. Charging money for a product you spent millions making is not greed, however. Game companies DO need to make money you know.
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SC2 is still in trial, and at this moment is not good for broadcasting so we have a long way till then. Stay cool and relax, SC2 it is a failure now and KESPA is smiling.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
....Blizzard OWNS the Starcraft Brand. NFL OWNS the NFL Brand. Kespa has shit all to do with it, except that they want to broadcast Starcraft 2 and up till now have milked a monster cash cow that is Broodwar.
I'm not arguing business accruement with you lol.
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Blizzard tried getting royalties but the Korean law is jacked up and Blizzard didnt have the right protections over SC1.
See in the US, using someone else's work to make a profit without giving them a cut and/or permission is ILLEGAL.
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You say that Kespa is giving free publicity to Blizzard, but one thing to consider is that Kespa could damage the brand (and e-sports as a whole) with uncompetitive practices like what they did to the GOM tournament last year. I think it would be in Blizzard's interest to ensure that the e-sports industry is not stifled by inertia of those with a monopoly.
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On February 22 2010 02:40 leonardus wrote:
SC2 is still in trial, and at this moment is not good for broadcasting so we have a long way till then. Stay cool and relax, SC2 it is a failure now and KESPA is smiling.
Well of course a game in beta isn't going to stand against SC1, but that can easily change once beta ends and when the expansions start to come out.
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On February 22 2010 02:36 Windblade wrote:
Blizzard doesnt NEED Kespa they can do w/e the hell they want and still make it a success
This really isn't even an argument, either Kespa pays or they dont get SC2.
Not so sure about that, what would SC: BW be without the korean scene? An extremely balanced and skillbased game - yes sure, but what else?
Kespa has pushed SC:BW to become a legendary game, with legendary players.. Large communities (TL.net) wouldn't even exist without the korean BW scene.
I do think kespa plays an important role in terms of SC2's longetivity and sucess.
We already know this game is going to sell millions of copies, the question is how long it will last, and how much this game can push the e-sport scene to its next level.
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Dont worry guys, im sure in the end of the day Kespa will take the worst decision possible with a horrible result for everyone.
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How much money can make Blizzard from TSL tournaments if they will request money from this site how that will be?
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
Why doesn't Blizzard hire another broadcasting company in Korea and allow them to broadcast the games for a nominal fee which is only fair.
That would force Kespa to either pay or get left in the dirt. It'd be their fault for trying to monopolise and destroy the e-sports scene. Nothing works with monopolies. That's why there's generally a law in most countries to stop it happening.
On February 22 2010 02:46 leonardus wrote:
How much money can make Blizzard from TSL tournaments if they will request money from this site how that will be?
I doubt they would do that. As the way TSL is streamed it's not actually making any money off of Blizzards work. If anything something like TSL is exactly what Blizzard want to see. Communities hosting their own big tournaments on their games.
Unlike Kespa TSL as far as I know don't actually make any profit from hosting the tournament where as if it's Telivised someone will end up making a ton of money.
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blizzard already killed the arbelet cup sc2 tournament because of these fees
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On February 22 2010 02:49 Qikz wrote:
Why doesn't Blizzard hire another broadcasting company in Korea and allow them to broadcast the games for a nominal fee which is only fair.
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This is what GOM tried to do.
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A small cut makes sense. They have a copyright on the game for a reason.
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I think Blizzard are being really stupid. They shouldn't have any fee because it inhibits the ability of outside agents to essentially market their game for them. Kespa should be given partial credit for the high sales of SC1. Because Kespa and eSports succeeded... so did SC1.
So much rides on the success of Battlenet for future Blizzard products. If SC2 takes off as a major eSport Battlenet could become the main portal for all PC gamers. Then Blizzard will have a really strong hold on the PC games market and can use that to make lots of money in the future.
It reminds me of Microsoft vs IBM. IBM tried to cash in on an operating system that no-one was using yet and Microsoft rolled over them by giving theirs out for free then making ridiculous money in the long term.
If the Battlenet software becomes the standard for most PC gamers Blizzard will be so ridiculous rich nothing else will matter.
So they should stop being greedy bastards and let external sources market their game for them with no fees.
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im afraid that even if blizzard tries hard to make SC2 an e-sports like it is in korea, it just wont be the same as we know rightnow. SC2 needs to become popular like SC:BW is in Korea, and the only country where i see it is possible is exactly in korea, but then KeSPA comes into play.
If KeSPA do not embrace SC2 as it did with SC:BW, i doubt SC2 will be as successful as the first one.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On February 22 2010 02:58 Klive5ive wrote:
I think Blizzard are being really stupid. They shouldn't have any fee because it inhibits the ability of outside agents to essentially market their game for them. Kespa should be given partial credit for the high sales of SC1. Because Kespa and eSports succeeded... so did SC1.
So much rides on the success of Battlenet for future Blizzard products. If SC2 takes off as a major eSport Battlenet could become the main portal for all PC gamers. Then Blizzard will have a really strong hold on the PC games market and can use that to make lots of money in the future.
It reminds me of Microsoft vs IBM. IBM tried to cash in on an operating system that no-one was using yet and Microsoft rolled over them by giving theirs out for free then making ridiculous money in the long term.
If the Battlenet software becomes the standard for most PC gamers Blizzard will be so ridiculous rich nothing else will matter.
So they should stop being greedy bastards and let external sources market their game for them with no fees.
The only reason why I disagree with you Klive is why should somebody else be making a profit of of something you've been working on for 10 years? Surely it'd be a bit of a kick in the teeth if you're not getting anything back for it.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
This thread is going to send me full tilt. I'm out!
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On February 22 2010 02:17 Kennigit wrote:
This has nothing to do with greed lol. It's a company. Companies need to make money. Companies can invest in 5 year long development cycles by having a steady revenue stream (WoW?). Of course KESPA should be paying up - they make MILLIONS per year in profit.
They aren't trying to squelch shit - Valve charges people to broadcast Source. The NFL charges CBS to broadcast matches.
I wish people would stop jumping to these ridiculous conclusions when they have no idea whats even going on.
+1
Of course Blizzard is entitled to royalties. I can't believe everyone thinks that Kespa should just be able to broadcast games for free. The fact that Blizzard already makes large profits is in no way a moral justification for Kespa to steal the rights to broadcast the game.
As Kennigit says, Blizzard is a company and they're perfectly entitled to aim for bigger profits, this has nothing to do with greed. They've invested a huge amount of time and money into the game and their entitled to see a return. Get in the real world people. THIS IS CAPITALISM. If you don't like it go an live in North Korea and wait for them to create a game as good as starcraft. (You're going to be waiting a long time.)
Free advertising is no justification either. Royalties are paid for the songs played before matches (they get free advertising as well) why an earth not for the actual game itself.
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On February 22 2010 02:46 Senx wrote:
Not so sure about that, what would SC: BW be without the korean scene? An extremely balanced and skillbased game - yes sure, but what else?
Kespa has pushed SC:BW to become a legendary game, with legendary players.. Large communities (TL.net) wouldn't even exist without the korean BW scene.
I do think kespa plays an important role in terms of SC2's longetivity and sucess.
We already know this game is going to sell millions of copies, the question is how long it will last, and how much this game can push the e-sport scene to its next level.
we arent talking about BW, we're talking SC2. Considering Blizzard has made WoW a 5-year MMO and the largest and still going...without Kespa...umm yeah they dont need them to keep a game going.
No one is denying Kespa's part in making Brood War big, Blizz doesnt deny that either. The problem here is the fact that Kespa is using someone else's IP, hardwork, and investment without any kind of royalty fee. What Kespa is doing happened in the US once upon a time, which is why this act is ILLEGAL in the US.
Again: I make an App for the iPhone. I put the work down, i came up with it, i did everything for it. Now when its on the App store and there's a price for it is it fair that Apple takes all the money? No, i get a cut of that money but Apple gets a certain percent too, why? Because i made it but its being distributed thanks to Apple.
SC2 is not a direct correlation but Blizzard is both distributing and creating SC2, Kespa isnt doing anything for its development. Basically its like you invent this awesome thing and some other person takes that thing and starts making money off it, and gives you none of that money. Won;t you be mad? Besides its not like blizzard wants it for the greed, blizzard spent MONEY on this thing they need the money to keep operating and INVESTING into new games.
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op should add a poll :p
i think blizzard should let kespa run sc2 just like they did with sc, its good business for both already. but then again if kespa refuces this offer then some new corp in korea can just start and accept what kespa didnt and take over korean esport for sc2 so atm i dont see how blizzard could lose this war
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I will go ahead and admit that my opinions in regard to this are largely based on the fact that I've absolutely no faith in Blizzard's ability or willingness to create and maintain a serious competitive environment for SC2. If you look at Blizzard's games historically, despite all Blizzard's talk, it's always fallen to third parties in the form of KeSPA, WGT, PGT, ICCUP, etc. to create any serious and meaningful competitive environments. Every move so far involving SC2 has been one to either interfere and profit from these third parties or to cut them out of the picture entirely and I personally don't like it simply because I don't believe Blizzard will seriously follow through with all their talk about supporting eSports and such.
That being said, I don't see why Blizzard should profit from something like KeSPA broadcasting which they've absolutely had no hand in organizing or creating. Sure, Blizzard made Starcraft, but they've played no part in turning it into the eSports phenomenon that it is today. KeSPA organizes the Korean eSports scene and therefore, they should be the ones to hold the rights to it much like the NFL holds broadcasting rights because they are the entity organizing the league. For Blizzard to require KeSPA to pay them royalties would to me be akin to Lousiville Slugger requiring the MLB to pay them royalties if they decide to use their baseball bats. The simple reason I say that the sports league argument doesn't apply is I could theoretically create my own baseball league with the same exact rules and I wouldn't have to pay the MLB a dime even if it was the same exact game. The MLB doesn't own the game itself, it only owns the league it created. In Blizzard's case, Starcraft 2 isn't a league. It's a tangible product like a baseball bat.
The way I see it, Blizzard sees money in the eSports scene that third parties have created and nurtured and now they want a piece of it by creating their own league and taxing any potential competition. Hell, I may be completely wrong about everything and frankly, that's fine because that would be best for the game. I'm just calling it the way it looks to me and aside from Blizzard fanboys, I think a lot of people would probably interpret these decisions and moves in a similar way...
On a side note, I think a lot of people here have this idea in their heads that eSports in Korea is ridiculously profitable when in reality it's not. Sure, it's somewhat profitable, but nowhere near the extent that many people here seem to believe.
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Right now we have this concept of "advertising value" where anything people like has a value determined by how many people are watching\visiting. This time is very valuable and it can be sold to advertisers at a given rate. "Free" websites like Youtube and Google make a fucking killing by this logic, people are using our shit so our ad space is valuable. You "pay" for these services by being an interested consumer with presumably at least one eye that can see ads. I find this silly because I've never purposely clicked, read, looked at, or made a purchase based on an ad, but I guess some people must occasionally click these fucking things or else there wouldn't be a steadily growing demand for advertising space and websites that generate "traffic" over the last 17 years I've been using online technology... I doubt much of that "traffic" ever actually causes a sale for anyone...
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Even Youtube pays people who make vids. I think if your vids consistently geting like 1 million + hits they give you a cut of the ad money they receive that get placed on your vid page
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there is no even Lan-support, what a joke lol
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A point to keep in mind; one way or the other, SC2 is going to be popular in Korea, with or without Kespa's aid. Now that we're in beta, there can be little doubt that SC2 will have no trouble at all gaining and holding a fanbase in Korea.
After all, there are a lot of SC1 fans in Korea, and almost all of them will at least try out the sequel; and plus, there are a lot of general gamers who, while they've heard of the original Starcraft, don't really play it or watch it. SC2 will draw in many of these as well. And the gameplay we've seen so far is definitely deep enough and high enough quality to hold on to players, in a similar way to SC1.
And, inevitably, this will pull viewers away from the original Starcraft, making Starcraft leagues less profitable. SC2 is close enough to SC1 that many laymen won't see much of a difference; but they'll naturally want to watch the newer version with prettier graphics and more exciting units.
Kespa is playing a very dangerous game here. If SC2 really takes off in Korea, then eventually it's going to be more profitable for Kespa to just pay Blizzard's fees and broadcast SC2 than it will be to continue broadcasting SC1 for free; but at that point, Kespa will have little bargaining power left. Right now, they have a great deal.
So, short of actually banning the game in Korea altogether (is this actually possible, by the way?), Kespa's best option is to negotiate a favorable agreement with Blizzard now.
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To be honest I think it is actually a good thing that Blizzard is going to make money off of professional e-sports. There are too many companies out there making games that are trash because they'll make quick cash off of it. Finally Hell, it's about time, a video game company that seems to take e-sports seriously. Perhaps this will influence other developers to have similar goals.
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Yeah, you have to sign up as a Youtube partner which is a very simple and reasonable agreement (you promise that you won't upload anything to a partner account unless you own the rights to monetize it. You're basically allowing youtube's infrastructure to do so for you, and they pay you your share).
My thoughts aren't so gathered on this issue but I'll do my best. What KESPA is providing in the eSports scene is all the myriad responsibilities of hosting and maintaining a tournament scene, hyping, managing players, etc.. Their tournament is played in Starcraft. Without Starcraft, there's nothing. However, Starcraft was not a monthly service in any way. You bought the game and you then owned your copy. If I buy myself a copy and my friend buys himself a copy, and we decide to play against one another, we won't be charged extra for that privilege. If we then decide to stream that video to some friends during the game, we still won't be charged extra. I can upload these videos to a non-partner Youtube account and show as many as I like. (Jon747 is a non-partner account and spreads the glorious joy of SC1 everyday)
The ONLY situation in which Blizzard rightfully wants to be payed is when you are using the videos of your games to make further money for yourself. Even though KESPA does add something to the mix (the studio work, music and lighting direction, choosing rules and players, etc.) the fact remains that SC1 is just as much a part of their licensed tool set as the music they do pay royalties for, so even if it's something small like $5 or $20 per broadcast game, they should be paying some sort of royalties just like a radio station would for playing a song. If the price goes much above that level, then it is prohibitive to small-timers and at that point I'd call the process "greedy" or "anti-competitive" :O
I'm curious how much money they actually expect to get from each tournament game broadcast. In a round of 128, there will be many hundreds of game. If the price exceeds single-digit dollars per game we would be forced to pick and choose which ones are worth broadcasting and I do not like that idea.
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On February 22 2010 03:03 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 02:58 Klive5ive wrote:
I think Blizzard are being really stupid. They shouldn't have any fee because it inhibits the ability of outside agents to essentially market their game for them. Kespa should be given partial credit for the high sales of SC1. Because Kespa and eSports succeeded... so did SC1.
So much rides on the success of Battlenet for future Blizzard products. If SC2 takes off as a major eSport Battlenet could become the main portal for all PC gamers. Then Blizzard will have a really strong hold on the PC games market and can use that to make lots of money in the future.
It reminds me of Microsoft vs IBM. IBM tried to cash in on an operating system that no-one was using yet and Microsoft rolled over them by giving theirs out for free then making ridiculous money in the long term.
If the Battlenet software becomes the standard for most PC gamers Blizzard will be so ridiculous rich nothing else will matter.
So they should stop being greedy bastards and let external sources market their game for them with no fees. The only reason why I disagree with you Klive is why should somebody else be making a profit of of something you've been working on for 10 years? Surely it'd be a bit of a kick in the teeth if you're not getting anything back for it.
I don't think it's in their interest to charge. I think they'll make more money if the let Esports grow without hindering with charges. Ok so people think Kespa is incompetent and are taking that into account but this issue is wider than just Kespa. It concerns the entire professional SC2 scene.
I just don't think making it difficult for people to spread your content is good policy.
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On February 22 2010 03:10 Windblade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 02:46 Senx wrote:
Not so sure about that, what would SC: BW be without the korean scene? An extremely balanced and skillbased game - yes sure, but what else?
Kespa has pushed SC:BW to become a legendary game, with legendary players.. Large communities (TL.net) wouldn't even exist without the korean BW scene.
I do think kespa plays an important role in terms of SC2's longetivity and sucess.
We already know this game is going to sell millions of copies, the question is how long it will last, and how much this game can push the e-sport scene to its next level. we arent talking about BW, we're talking SC2. Considering Blizzard has made WoW a 5-year MMO and the largest and still going...without Kespa...umm yeah they dont need them to keep a game going. No one is denying Kespa's part in making Brood War big, Blizz doesnt deny that either. The problem here is the fact that Kespa is using someone else's IP, hardwork, and investment without any kind of royalty fee. What Kespa is doing happened in the US once upon a time, which is why this act is ILLEGAL in the US. Again: I make an App for the iPhone. I put the work down, i came up with it, i did everything for it. Now when its on the App store and there's a price for it is it fair that Apple takes all the money? No, i get a cut of that money but Apple gets a certain percent too, why? Because i made it but its being distributed thanks to Apple. SC2 is not a direct correlation but Blizzard is both distributing and creating SC2, Kespa isnt doing anything for its development. Basically its like you invent this awesome thing and some other person takes that thing and starts making money off it, and gives you none of that money. Won;t you be mad? Besides its not like blizzard wants it for the greed, blizzard spent MONEY on this thing they need the money to keep operating and INVESTING into new games.
Im not arguing against Kespa paying blizzard to broadcast matches in SC2, they should do that, what im arguing is kespas importance for SC2 sucess and longetivity.. they need to work out a deal so that kespa does pick it up. The professional scene in korea far surpasses anything the "foreign" scene has ever created, in any title.. be it Quake 3 or CS 1.6.
And how you bring in WoW into the discussion makes no sense either, it's not an e-sport game nor does kespa have anything do with it. Mmorpgs works a bit differently than RTS games as in regular content patches, regular expansions, massive social integration, events etc.. so can't really compare two different genres like that.
Alll im saying is that Kespa is important for SC2 success - as shown in SC1. The optimal situation would be to have a professional korean scene for SC2 to lead the way and maybe in the future have an international scene if the "foreigners" ever become that good.
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Calgary25974 Posts
On February 22 2010 03:26 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 03:03 Qikz wrote:On February 22 2010 02:58 Klive5ive wrote:
I think Blizzard are being really stupid. They shouldn't have any fee because it inhibits the ability of outside agents to essentially market their game for them. Kespa should be given partial credit for the high sales of SC1. Because Kespa and eSports succeeded... so did SC1.
So much rides on the success of Battlenet for future Blizzard products. If SC2 takes off as a major eSport Battlenet could become the main portal for all PC gamers. Then Blizzard will have a really strong hold on the PC games market and can use that to make lots of money in the future.
It reminds me of Microsoft vs IBM. IBM tried to cash in on an operating system that no-one was using yet and Microsoft rolled over them by giving theirs out for free then making ridiculous money in the long term.
If the Battlenet software becomes the standard for most PC gamers Blizzard will be so ridiculous rich nothing else will matter.
So they should stop being greedy bastards and let external sources market their game for them with no fees. The only reason why I disagree with you Klive is why should somebody else be making a profit of of something you've been working on for 10 years? Surely it'd be a bit of a kick in the teeth if you're not getting anything back for it. I don't think it's in their interest to charge. I think they'll make more money if the let Esports grow without hindering with charges. Ok so people think Kespa is incompetent and are taking that into account but this issue is wider than just Kespa. It concerns the entire professional SC2 scene. I just don't think making it difficult for people to spread your content is good policy.
Are we arguing business development or legal issues here?
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[B]
SC2 is going to be popular in Korea, with or without Kespa's aid.
If SC2 really takes off in Korea, then eventually it's going to be more profitable for Kespa to just pay Blizzard's fees and broadcast SC2 than it will be to continue broadcasting SC1 for free; but at that point, Kespa will have little bargaining power left. Right now, they have a great deal.
Ha, SC2 is far from perfection to make big profit in Korea. And how can you tell that a game is popular if is not on tv? If Blizzard does not want money from Korea from selling just the game from the TV rights nothing will come to them.
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On February 22 2010 03:19 Captain Peabody wrote:
Kespa is playing a very dangerous game here. If SC2 really takes off in Korea, then eventually it's going to be more profitable for Kespa to just pay Blizzard's fees and broadcast SC2 than it will be to continue broadcasting SC1 for free; but at that point, Kespa will have little bargaining power left. Right now, they have a great deal.
So, short of actually banning the game in Korea altogether (is this actually possible, by the way?), Kespa's best option is to negotiate a favorable agreement with Blizzard now.
KeSPA is honestly not playing a dangerous game at all. If they can't get the rights for whatever reason or are unwilling to pay for them, they'll just either broadcast a different game or wait for a Korean company to create a suitable clone to broadcast. If you actually sit down and watch the OGN channel, you'll notice that other than games like Starcraft and Street Fighter 4, it's pretty much all Korean-made games that are unheard of anywhere else in the world. Some of them are pretty blatant rip-offs of other game (Sudden Attack/Special Forces)...
The only real issue here is that Korea is one of the only countries with an actually established professional eSports infrastructure and Blizzard wants to profit from it while the Koreans don't want to give Blizzard money for something that they feel that they themselves created.
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What would ultimately be cool would be if Blizzard didn't give kespa any rights to broadcast at all and instead developed a Pro Scene in the west.
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On February 22 2010 03:28 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 03:26 Klive5ive wrote:On February 22 2010 03:03 Qikz wrote:On February 22 2010 02:58 Klive5ive wrote:
I think Blizzard are being really stupid. They shouldn't have any fee because it inhibits the ability of outside agents to essentially market their game for them. Kespa should be given partial credit for the high sales of SC1. Because Kespa and eSports succeeded... so did SC1.
So much rides on the success of Battlenet for future Blizzard products. If SC2 takes off as a major eSport Battlenet could become the main portal for all PC gamers. Then Blizzard will have a really strong hold on the PC games market and can use that to make lots of money in the future.
It reminds me of Microsoft vs IBM. IBM tried to cash in on an operating system that no-one was using yet and Microsoft rolled over them by giving theirs out for free then making ridiculous money in the long term.
If the Battlenet software becomes the standard for most PC gamers Blizzard will be so ridiculous rich nothing else will matter.
So they should stop being greedy bastards and let external sources market their game for them with no fees. The only reason why I disagree with you Klive is why should somebody else be making a profit of of something you've been working on for 10 years? Surely it'd be a bit of a kick in the teeth if you're not getting anything back for it. I don't think it's in their interest to charge. I think they'll make more money if the let Esports grow without hindering with charges. Ok so people think Kespa is incompetent and are taking that into account but this issue is wider than just Kespa. It concerns the entire professional SC2 scene. I just don't think making it difficult for people to spread your content is good policy. Are we arguing business development or legal issues here?
Well business development.
Legally the ball is Blizzard's court. They can put what they like in the TOS and if people break that then they can take legal action to remove the use of their product in that way.
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Calgary25974 Posts
On February 22 2010 03:33 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 03:28 Chill wrote:On February 22 2010 03:26 Klive5ive wrote:On February 22 2010 03:03 Qikz wrote:On February 22 2010 02:58 Klive5ive wrote:
I think Blizzard are being really stupid. They shouldn't have any fee because it inhibits the ability of outside agents to essentially market their game for them. Kespa should be given partial credit for the high sales of SC1. Because Kespa and eSports succeeded... so did SC1.
So much rides on the success of Battlenet for future Blizzard products. If SC2 takes off as a major eSport Battlenet could become the main portal for all PC gamers. Then Blizzard will have a really strong hold on the PC games market and can use that to make lots of money in the future.
It reminds me of Microsoft vs IBM. IBM tried to cash in on an operating system that no-one was using yet and Microsoft rolled over them by giving theirs out for free then making ridiculous money in the long term.
If the Battlenet software becomes the standard for most PC gamers Blizzard will be so ridiculous rich nothing else will matter.
So they should stop being greedy bastards and let external sources market their game for them with no fees. The only reason why I disagree with you Klive is why should somebody else be making a profit of of something you've been working on for 10 years? Surely it'd be a bit of a kick in the teeth if you're not getting anything back for it. I don't think it's in their interest to charge. I think they'll make more money if the let Esports grow without hindering with charges. Ok so people think Kespa is incompetent and are taking that into account but this issue is wider than just Kespa. It concerns the entire professional SC2 scene. I just don't think making it difficult for people to spread your content is good policy. Are we arguing business development or legal issues here? Well business development. Legally the ball is Blizzard's court. They can put what they like in the TOS and if people break that then they can take legal action to remove the use of their product in that way.
I think that's the part people don't understand.
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On February 22 2010 02:54 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 02:49 Qikz wrote:
Why doesn't Blizzard hire another broadcasting company in Korea and allow them to broadcast the games for a nominal fee which is only fair.
. This is what GOM tried to do.
speaking of GOM why did it stop? i loved watching that and progamers played it and it was great quality and website
why cant u do like this?
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I happy about this war. I don't like SC2, and I will loose nothing if Flash does not play this game. And if SC2 will be on TV we will not see this at least 1 year. OLE
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On February 22 2010 03:31 HeartOfTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 03:19 Captain Peabody wrote:
Kespa is playing a very dangerous game here. If SC2 really takes off in Korea, then eventually it's going to be more profitable for Kespa to just pay Blizzard's fees and broadcast SC2 than it will be to continue broadcasting SC1 for free; but at that point, Kespa will have little bargaining power left. Right now, they have a great deal.
So, short of actually banning the game in Korea altogether (is this actually possible, by the way?), Kespa's best option is to negotiate a favorable agreement with Blizzard now. KeSPA is honestly not playing a dangerous game at all. If they can't get the rights for whatever reason or are unwilling to pay for them, they'll just either broadcast a different game or wait for a Korean company to create a suitable clone to broadcast. If you actually sit down and watch the OGN channel, you'll notice that other than games like Starcraft and Street Fighter 4, it's pretty much all Korean-made games that are unheard of anywhere else in the world. Some of them are pretty blatant rip-offs of other game (Sudden Attack/Special Forces)... The only real issue here is that Korea is one of the only countries with an actually established professional eSports infrastructure and Blizzard wants to profit from it while the Koreans don't want to give Blizzard money for something that they feel that they themselves created.
Yeah but what are the viewer ratings for those Korean made games compared to Starcraft. There's no comparison. Kespa is playing a very dangerous game because they need SC2 badly. SC1 will only look more and more dated in the future, especially with SC2 coming out and as people have already mentioned Koreans will be buying and playing SC2 whatever happens. There will soon be a massive demand for SC2 e-sports matches. If Kespa can't provide that they will suffer. The most obvious solution would be some sort of compromise which I expect will eventually be reached but their is no doubt that Blizzard has a far stronger position to negotiate from.
I'm assuming there is no way to broadcast an SC2 game without Blizzards consent now there is no lan. Perhaps there is a way of getting around it. I don't know but I would be interested to hear what people think.
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On February 22 2010 03:44 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 02:54 Kennigit wrote:On February 22 2010 02:49 Qikz wrote:
Why doesn't Blizzard hire another broadcasting company in Korea and allow them to broadcast the games for a nominal fee which is only fair.
. This is what GOM tried to do. speaking of GOM why did it stop? i loved watching that and progamers played it and it was great quality and website why cant u do like this?
KESPA killed it because it was being sponsored by Blizzard. They banned all the teams from participating in it. It was very sad because it did so much for e-sports. This was one of the battles in this ongoing war.
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I agree with the people that said that they don't trust blizzard to create a long term competetive enviroment for sc2 at all.
I don't understand how people can be comfortable with the idea of a game _developer_ being totally in charge of the scene for game that's already been released.
What happens when warcraft 4 comes out? Do people seriously believe blizzard will still support sc2 then?? (apart from a convinience patch or 2 every year) The sc2 leagues that blizzard start up now will then go the same way as the old bw ladder, I'm sure of it.
The progaming scene around bw made blizzard profit from sales a long, long time after the game would have died off completely if independent organizations hadn't picked up where blizzard left off. I personally have bought 3 copies of sc+bw soley due to the korean pro scene. And I am sure a lot of other people on this website can say the same.
All in all, blizzard make games and thus they should get money when people buy them. They shouldn't get money for what people do with their games after they have bought them :/
Another sports analogy: Adidas shouldn't get royalties from the international olympic commitee because they are organizing a competition where people wear Adidas gear. Even though Adidas may have spent millions and millions on developing said gear.
On the contrary blizzard should be happy that other people are spending huge amounts of time and effort on something which is effectivly a big advertisment for their game without asking for payment. If anything blizzard should pay kespa =p
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On February 22 2010 02:40 leonardus wrote:
SC2 is still in trial, and at this moment is not good for broadcasting so we have a long way till then. Stay cool and relax, SC2 it is a failure now and KESPA is smiling.
Your post is really stupid. I don't even completely get what you're saying.
You state the obvious, then flame, then say sc2 is a failure with no backing to support.
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From a strictly practical standpoint, I don't want to see leagues or organizations paying fees to Blizzard because it reduces the profitability of ventures that will expand e-sports. That means we'll see less organizations/leagues that are working to expand e-sports, and I think that's a bad thing.
Blizzard charges a fee to purchase its games and I think that in most cases that's enough. Organizations that commercialize the game being played don't need to pay fees to Blizzard. I'd probably change my opinion on that if Blizzard went a few extra miles by creating features that encouraged commercialization by organizations like KeSPA, etc
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8748 Posts
On February 22 2010 03:58 Failsafe wrote:
From a strictly practical standpoint, I don't want to see leagues or organizations paying fees to Blizzard because it reduces the profitability of ventures that will expand e-sports. That means we'll see less organizations/leagues that are working to expand e-sports, and I think that's a bad thing.
Blizzard charges a fee to purchase its games and I think that in most cases that's enough. Organizations that commercialize the game being played don't need to pay fees to Blizzard. I'd probably change my opinion on that if Blizzard went a few extra miles by creating features that encouraged commercialization by organizations like KeSPA, etc
Yeah, I agree. If Blizzard charges a fee then they should be providing some kind of e-Sports related service with the money generated by that fee. It would suck to see that money ending up going toward the development of Blizzard's other games or some other dead end. Let that money be recycled back into e-Sports!
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On February 22 2010 03:53 yarders wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 03:44 MorroW wrote:On February 22 2010 02:54 Kennigit wrote:On February 22 2010 02:49 Qikz wrote:
Why doesn't Blizzard hire another broadcasting company in Korea and allow them to broadcast the games for a nominal fee which is only fair.
. This is what GOM tried to do. speaking of GOM why did it stop? i loved watching that and progamers played it and it was great quality and website why cant u do like this? KESPA killed it because it was being sponsored by Blizzard. They banned all the teams from participating in it. It was very sad because it did so much for e-sports. This was one of the battles in this ongoing war.
^ If that's true, I don't see how anyone here can have sympathy for KeSPA. Something that was expanding esports to a much wider audience with some success was killed by the organization you love out of spite, or because they didn't want to pay Blizzard royalties. IT seems to me like KeSPA's being pretty stubborn.
The resolution is simple. Just think what Judge Judy would say. Literally a 1 minute trial. "WHAT?! You're broadcasting copyrighted content created with this company's blood sweat and tears? And you're making money off it?! Ruling is in favor of the plaintiff. Case closed."
I'm not saying Blizzard could run esports better than KeSPA, lord knows they couldn't. But surely they could work out an agreement that would get Blizzard the royalties it deserves (Which means MORE content for SC2, and more support), while allowing KeSPA to prosper and grow with the money they'll rake in as broadcaster and pro organization. Again I really sense stubbornness from KeSPA here not to enter a partnership.
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I really don't understand how people cannot see that Kespa was vital to sc's sucess? Just imagine this: remove all kespa tournements, and all the players in them too, and don't replace it with anything similar. Whats the result? no korean scene beyond what the forgiener scene is now, tell me how many of you would be interested in broodwar/teamliquid if there was no OSL MSL or proLeague? basicly if there was no professional korean scene, just semi-pro like we have in other countries. Not only that but the US scene has been partly bolstered up by the korean pro-scene becuase of forgieners interested in the korean scene and WCG adopting it becuase of Korea. Starcraft is a competative game, it's the best e-sports in the world, and the governing body of the professional leagues is KESPA not bilzzard. It's like if someone who made a valid case that they owned the rights to americain football when it first became popular and said that the NFL had to pay them sums of money and they said no, and no company wanted to pay, so you would have no televised NFL games, how popular would the game be then?
Look at any major sport, and it's sucess is made by the governing board of the professional scene and televisation, not the creator of the sport. Admitly the creators of sports are long dead now and don't have rights to claim in terms of copywright but imagine the mess we would be in if they did.
Yes blizzard should recive money from selling the game ect, but what kespa is doing is free advertising and not just that but giving players a REASON to buy the game, can you seriously tell me that Kespa's leagues are not the MAIN reason you are buying SC2/ did buy SC:BW?
It's what seperates it from games like red alert and such is that sc has the best and the only proper rts pro-scene that's considered like a main sport in the fact it is boradcast on tv and not a niche interest in at least one country, but mainstream. Sure it's blizzards job to make the game capable to have a pro-scene through balance, but surely discoraging/almsot not allowing pro-scene covering is just as bad as an unbalanced game? There's no point in balancing something for competative pro play if you don't allow a pro-scene, and basicly blizzard are cutting the head off the main source of coverage of the starcraft pro-scene at the moment, which is a massive part of the pro-scene's future sucess.
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On February 22 2010 03:54 KlaCkoN wrote:
I agree with the people that said that they don't trust blizzard to create a long term competetive enviroment for sc2 at all.
I don't understand how people can be comfortable with the idea of a game _developer_ being totally in charge of the scene for game that's already been released.
Not being comfortable is not a justification to forego copyright.
What happens when warcraft 4 comes out? Do people seriously believe blizzard will still support sc2 then?? (apart from a convinience patch or 2 every year) The sc2 leagues that blizzard start up now will then go the same way as the old bw ladder, I'm sure of it.
If Blizzard generates an income stream either in the form of royalties or from their own events you can be damn sure they'll not just forget about SC2.
The progaming scene around bw made blizzard profit from sales a long, long time after the game would have died off completely if independent organizations hadn't picked up where blizzard left off. I personally have bought 3 copies of sc+bw soley due to the korean pro scene. And I am sure a lot of other people on this website can say the same.
All in all, blizzard make games and thus they should get money when people buy them. They shouldn't get money for what people do with their games after they have bought them :/
Another sports analogy: Adidas shouldn't get royalties from the international olympic commitee because they are organizing a competition where people wear Adidas gear. Even though Adidas may have spent millions and millions on developing said gear.
Your analogy is not relevant since Adidas is not required to play the sport its just a logo. It's a very different situation.
On the contrary blizzard should be happy that other people are spending huge amounts of time and effort on something which is effectivly a big advertisment for their game without asking for payment. If anything blizzard should pay kespa =p
No this is Blizzards game and they have both a moral and legal justification for royalties just as muscians do when there music is used.
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well if you guys like royalties, ive heard of this great place that is based entierly on it. o yea, the middle ages. :/
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100% Blizzard is in the right. Kespa did a lot of good for Starcraft but that doesnt make Starcraft theirs.
I would love to see Kespa work with Blizzard (on Blizzard's terms) but if they cant find a way then well at least theyll still have SC1.
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Blizzard should use their endless source of money to buy KeSPA.
Now that'd be baller.
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Nobody is saying that Kespa did nothing to make SC1 a success. It's just that it's perfectly reasonable for a company to expect a share when someone else makes money off of THEIR product. That's the whole point of it all really.
It's sad though because this is just an annoying tug-of-war between two companies who are hoping that the other one will give in. Saying that Kespa doesn't care about SC2 is laughable. Everyone knows that SC2 will be a major success and that many people around the world will be transferring to it. Kespa will obviously want a piece of the pie, but they don't want to pay royalties, so they're hoping that SC2 will "fail" as an e-sport so that Blizzard will give in and let them broadcast for free. Then of course Blizzard is hoping that SC2 will be such a success that people will abandon Kespa and then Kespa will be forced to pay or go bankrupt. It's hard to say which one will happen because nobody really knows how the SC2 e-sport scene will fare.
We know that it will be a success, but we don't know if Kespa is really as vital as it was in the SC1 days, and we don't know enough about how the e-sport scene will grow without Kespa behind it. It's really just two stubborn companies desperately hoping that the pendulum will swing in their favor in the coming months.
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People assume Blizzard wants to control everything itself. This really isn't true, Blizzard doesnt have a problem with Kespa running its leagues and whatnot, they just want a rightful loyalty fee. Do you guys honestly think Kespa rules the world? E-Sports have been growing, Blizzard doesnt need to handle the pro-game field a new league will probably pop up on its own US and/or other foreign countries- Blizz just gives rules and regulations (basically a standard maker and moderator) give us a small royalty fee, ok done, aight go ahead and play your leagues GL HF
This isn't a battle over who CONTROLS the pro-game scene, this is about being rightfully paid for your work. Honestly, Kespa is pretty bad they have a monopoly over the scene. Which just shows how unfortunately disfunctional the korean law system is. The US has built in safeguards for organizations like Kespa, and this dispute.
In the US, the case is simple: The game is Blizzards, pay them a fee or stfu.
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Does blizzard have the right to be getting royalties? Yes, they spent millions to develop this game and what not.
Are they being greedy? They are a company. The purpose of a company is to make money. It's not like this is unethical.
Is Kespa being greedy? Kespa also happens to be a company (or they represent companies, or something, not sure the exact structure of it.) Kespa's goal is to make as much money as possible. Kespa probably worries about the fact if they give in on this issue, other companies will follow suit.
But but,... blizzard gets free advertising and they should be happy that their game is on tv? You're a dumb ass.
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If the audience and players have to sit on those white plastic chairs, it means that they certainly don't have any money to spend on Blizzard fees.
These things cost like 2,95€.
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Or maybe it shows how cheap ass Kespa is
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I am more curious just exactly how much is being profited from the pro-scene in Korea.
There is very limited amount of e-sport merchandises being released to the public. The majority of the profit comes from the commercials that air on OGN and MBC. Since there is no ticket sales and the entire pro-scene is mainly ran based on limited corporate sponsorships, I really wonder how profitable is it really.
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blizzard shouldn't take any fees! fucking greedy corporation...
it's like england taking fees from fooball just they invented it -.-
p.s. blizzard made sc but kespa made progaming sc 
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by your statement
blizz shouldnt even make SC2 then because they'll get money for the work they put into it
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Morally/legally i think that they should get some fees, however for the good of esports and possible long term profit I would say don't charge fees.
Does anybody have an idea about how blizzard-run tournies will work? will it be a buy-in thing, a straight up prize pool or what? I think this is very important to know.
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I think that it should be the opposite way. Blizzard should be paying KeSPA for putting sc2 on tv. KeSPA and similar groups/events/tourneys is what brings people to want to play starcraft in the first place. A lot of people start playing starcraft after what they see broadcasted by KeSPA and similar groups, not just because starcraft is made by blizzard.
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blizzard will get money from selling a product and that should be it!
adidas/nike are making balls and you buy it.. why would you pay if you play with it? kespa is an e-sport organization and kespa making e-sport events = it's great commercial for blizzard...
i know WOW made them more greedy then ever but i will officially hate them so so so much if they will take money from KESPA or anyone else just coz they want to make progaming or gaming event
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On February 22 2010 05:03 Monkeyboi2k3 wrote:
I think that it should be the opposite way. Blizzard should be paying KeSPA for putting sc2 on tv. KeSPA and similar groups/events/tourneys is what brings people to want to play starcraft in the first place. A lot of people start playing starcraft after what they see broadcasted by KeSPA and similar groups, not just because starcraft is made by blizzard.
Yea, imagine I make a game and then I have to pay you money so you can make money. Your statement is just flawed. If blizzard doesn't make money off their own product, how do you expect them to keep supporting it years after with patches, tourneys, and whatever they have planned. And I don't see why so many are on kespas side, when knowing if this happens here in the states, they would of been sued already. I say they pay the fee just like any other company would if they want to make money off someone elses product.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
I'm not an expert towards legal issues at all but I think you can't compare the NFL to Blizzard. Blizzard invented the game. But it's Kespa's players who are playing the game. If you say that blizzard owns the copyright towards videos created in a game then all the fpvod streams on livestream violate copyright. People won't be able to upload a video of their replay without getting it taken down on Youtube. I'm not saying that blizzard would go on youtube removing starcraft videos. It just seems ridiculous to me that blizzard could own the copyright over a game that I played.
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On February 22 2010 05:13 kyama wrote:
And I don't see why so many are on kespas side...
So many people are on kespa's side because they're jumping on the Blizzard-hate bandwagon. Not to Godwin's-law myself, but if this debate was Blizzards vs Hitler, you'd still have some idiots saying "Blizzard can't be trusted to run anything! Give control to Hitler!", without fully understanding the argument at hand.
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Well im sure that kespa, or actually the broadcasting networks (arent they pretty much one and the same?) pay royalties for music that they play, so why wouldnt they pay for the actual game?
Kespa just seems like a corrupt organization.
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Somebody please make a poll for this issue.
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On February 22 2010 05:22 leonardus wrote:
Somebody please make a poll for this issue.
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On February 22 2010 05:22 leonardus wrote:
Somebody please make a poll for this issue.
Why? The poll won't decide who's right.
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France2061 Posts
On February 22 2010 05:18 ComradeDover wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 05:13 kyama wrote:
And I don't see why so many are on kespas side...
So many people are on kespa's side because they're jumping on the Blizzard-hate bandwagon. Not to Godwin's-law myself, but if this debate was Blizzards vs Hitler, you'd still have some idiots saying "Blizzard can't be trusted to run anything! Give control to Hitler!", without fully understanding the argument at hand.
Or maybe they're on Kespa's side because Kespa has a proven track record when it comes to esports, while Blizzard doesn't. The only bandwagon I see involves ragging on Kespa and bemoaning their influence even though they created pro SC.
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On February 22 2010 05:18 ComradeDover wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 05:13 kyama wrote:
And I don't see why so many are on kespas side...
So many people are on kespa's side because they're jumping on the Blizzard-hate bandwagon. Not to Godwin's-law myself, but if this debate was Blizzards vs Hitler, you'd still have some idiots saying "Blizzard can't be trusted to run anything! Give control to Hitler!", without fully understanding the argument at hand.
What blizzard hate band wagon? You argument litterally is, "some people don't agree with me they must be nazi supporters!!!!"
I mean what?
Do you guys think kespa should be paying royalties to dell (or which ever company) for using their computers as well?
Should TL be paying royalties since the main reason the site exists (and makes add revenue) is by supplying videos of brood war games and discussion related to them?
It doesn't make any sense, blizzards product is the game, people pay to buy the game. OGNs, MBCs and TLs (via TSL) product is the legaues, the players, the commentating, the organization, neither of which blizzard has anything to do with at all, and thus they shouldn't get money for it.
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On February 22 2010 05:27 snowdrift86 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 05:18 ComradeDover wrote:On February 22 2010 05:13 kyama wrote:
And I don't see why so many are on kespas side...
So many people are on kespa's side because they're jumping on the Blizzard-hate bandwagon. Not to Godwin's-law myself, but if this debate was Blizzards vs Hitler, you'd still have some idiots saying "Blizzard can't be trusted to run anything! Give control to Hitler!", without fully understanding the argument at hand. Or maybe they're on Kespa's side because Kespa has a proven track record when it comes to esports, while Blizzard doesn't. The only bandwagon I see involves ragging on Kespa and bemoaning their influence even though they created pro SC.
You're right, Kespa organized esports, therefore it's okay to throw copywrite out the window.
This post of yours proves me point exactly. This isn't a question of "Who should run esports?". Assuming Kespa pays up, like they should, they're still going to do what they do, the difference is they'll be doing it legally, and Blizzard will have more incentive to keep supporting the game longer.
Also, I'll choose to ignore the Kespa abuses that are part of their "proven track record", like killing GOM.
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On February 22 2010 05:31 KlaCkoN wrote:
You argument litterally is, "some people don't agree with me they must be nazi supporters!!!!"
I mean what?
No. My argument is literally "People aren't very happy with Blizzard, and are willing to take the side of less-than-favorable alternatives in their opposition." Using Hitler's name was just for dramatic effect.
On February 22 2010 05:31 KlaCkoN wrote:
Do you guys think kespa should be paying royalties to dell (or which ever company) for using their computers as well?
Dell computers aren't intellectual property. Why not look at something that Kespa is already paying royalties for, the music they use? That's a far better analogy.
On February 22 2010 05:31 KlaCkoN wrote:
Should TL be paying royalties since the main reason the site exists (and makes add revenue) is by supplying videos of brood war games and discussion related to them?
TL doesn't make money...I don't think it does, at least.
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On February 22 2010 05:31 KlaCkoN wrote:
Should TL be paying royalties since the main reason the site exists (and makes add revenue) is by supplying videos of brood war games and discussion related to them?
Are you serious? ...
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The actual status:
1.Blizzard made the game.
2. Kespa can sell TV rights for his players games
3.MGN and OGN buy from Kespa those TV rights, because the games are very god and the leagues are very well managed and also attract a lot of people.The world is interested in Kespa games on TV not USA games or something else.
Now Blizzard wants some money from Kespa for TV rights but then the prices will go up and OGN and MGN will not buy them and not transmit anything. Blizzard did not make the game for TV. They better focus on improving SC2 to be adopted by Kespa and in this way to promote their product. I think that Blizz wants something that not deserve.
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Seriously WTF with the kespa love? We all know how greedy they are...
Yes - partially it was them that made SC popular in Korea (only because they saw profit there, don't you dare to say that they were angels and made SC popular because they love people LOOOOL), however that's it. The one and only good side of kespa's actions was help in making SC more popular in 1 country. Now for the kespa's sins - idiotic rules that kill competition and fun from the game, taking TOTAL control of how esports look like, monopolisation. These are VERY huge sins, kespa is VERY egoistic so don't pretend that they are holy. "But making SC more popular in korea made possible for Blizz to earn more money". Right, from what? Selling BW, like 1-2 millions copies more than without kespa, that's not as huge as the money kespa earned with it's activity.
It is TOTALLY unfair that the people that made the game earned from it less than kespa
Blizzard is in no way "bad" or "greedy", they have no problems with us doing anything with this game that is legal, they don't kill any competition with cheap tricks like kespa did to GOM, they care about community, read our forums, considered our feedback about sc2 even before beta came out and patch their games even when they are 10 years old, they build fucking platform to play on and don't require even a single penny for using it - you only log in with your original game and go.
Now, what did your "holy" gespa did that was generous and good to you? That's right, they only did what was profitable to them and killed fun out of anything that didn't bring them profit, not caring about us (no chat in games, no 2v2, no GOM)
On February 22 2010 05:31 KlaCkoN wrote:
(...)
Do you guys think kespa should be paying royalties to dell (or which ever company) for using their computers as well?
(...)
The most failed argument ever. Is kespa streaming the video of dell computers or of SC games? :|
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On February 22 2010 05:37 leonardus wrote:
The actual status:
1.Blizzard made the game.
2. Kespa can sell TV rights for his players games
3.MGN and OGN buy from Kespa those TV rights, because the games are very god and the leagues are very well managed and also attract a lot of people.The world is interested in Kespa games on TV not USA games or something else.
Now Blizzard wants some money from Kespa for TV rights but then the prices will go up and OGN and MGN will not buy them and not transmit anything. Blizzard did not make the game for TV. They better focus on improving SC2 to be adopted by Kespa and in this way to promote their product. I think that Blizz wants something that not deserve.
This little drama will never have a chance to play itself out with SC2. No LAN = no offline broadcasts (What Kespa has been doing so far). If Kespa wants SC2, they'll have to do it through Bnet (The only way to play multiplayer SC2), and that requires a different license that they don't have. Either they'll pay up or they'll ignore SC2, but they can't keep doing what they've been doing.
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Poll: So...Who are you supporting?
(Vote): Blizzard
(Vote): KeSPA
(Vote): fu....
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Wowwowwow, i am having a tough time here.
So because kespa built the korean e-sport scene with sc they dont need to pay blizzard for using their product.
Do i understand right when some of you guys say that Blizzard should have helped KESPA making profit with sc in korea to earn the right to get some fees?
That is genius!!!
So let us say you are a musician and some korean dude named Mr.Kespa comes steal your music and makes millions and millions $$$ for years in korea with your music!
What do you think about that?
a) MOTHERFUCKA ripped me off!!!!
b) It is fine, because he makes my music more popular and for every 10000$ he makes i make 1$
c) i should have helped him ripping me off so maybe he would give me 1% of the earnings! Next time someone wants to steal my shit i will help him! Damn i should have bought mr.Kespa those plane tickets!!!!
I mean come on guys !!! Kespa was created, because sc was popular, not to start making it popular! Kespa is a company too! So yea, while Kespa may has helped blizzard to make some $ in sold sc, they must have made 100x as much with commercials.
I must stop now because not having sc2 beta key + this thread makes me rage like mad.
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Iunno how this is even debatable...kespa is lucky that blizz didn't do this/ will do this when they profited off sc:bw. Blizzard has the right to charge em for sc2 because they are a profiting organization ion the pro scene and are actually pretty big in korea for pro sc.
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On February 18 2010 14:51 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2010 14:47 alexanderzero wrote:
Blizzard should just run their own tournaments if they want to sell the footage. Hopefully they plan to expand their GOM partnership and do that...
*WILD META SC POLITICAL-THEORYCRAFT WARNING*
If I read the new blizzard battle.net "eula" right, and with no LAN games, I think they will do exactly something like that.
There will be Blizzard-certified tournaments that can use SC2, and everyone else will be out. Kespa will remain @SC1, Blizzard will partner up with GOM for SC2, and even though it might be monopolistic on their part, in practice everything will be better for Starcraft (we will have good English coverage, and there will be a stronger non-Korean progaming scene).
And that's the end of my wild political-theorycrafting.
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If Blizzard forces korea to pay for broadcasting sc2, then korea will use pirate servers like china.
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Intellect levels critical, abandon thread!
It was nice talking with some of you before it devolved into OMG GREEDY
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France2061 Posts
On February 22 2010 05:31 ComradeDover wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 05:27 snowdrift86 wrote:On February 22 2010 05:18 ComradeDover wrote:On February 22 2010 05:13 kyama wrote:
And I don't see why so many are on kespas side...
So many people are on kespa's side because they're jumping on the Blizzard-hate bandwagon. Not to Godwin's-law myself, but if this debate was Blizzards vs Hitler, you'd still have some idiots saying "Blizzard can't be trusted to run anything! Give control to Hitler!", without fully understanding the argument at hand. Or maybe they're on Kespa's side because Kespa has a proven track record when it comes to esports, while Blizzard doesn't. The only bandwagon I see involves ragging on Kespa and bemoaning their influence even though they created pro SC. You're right, Kespa organized esports, therefore it's okay to throw copywrite out the window. This post of yours proves me point exactly. This isn't a question of "Who should run esports?". Assuming Kespa pays up, like they should, they're still going to do what they do, the difference is they'll be doing it legally, and Blizzard will have more incentive to keep supporting the game longer. Also, I'll choose to ignore the Kespa abuses that are part of their "proven track record", like killing GOM.
This isn't about the legal argument; in that regard Blizzard can do what they want. This is about developing esports. Blizzard demanding royalties for something they had no role in creating -- the Korean proscene -- would just stifle the further growth of esports. Even now, esports don't seem hugely profitable -- consider MBCGames difficulties in finding sponsors, or the fact that OGN doesn't sponsor a team anymore. Do you think the scene will grow when fans have to pay for seating, or to watch VODs? That sort of thing would become inevitable with licensing fees. It could work out if Blizzard were truly committed to developing esports, but there track record doesn't inspire any confidence, hence the "pro-Kespa" argument.
As for killing GOM, technically they weren't the ones who pulled the plug -- they simply withdrew their teams. Nothing prevented GOM from having their own teams/players, with Blizzard's help (after all, don't you believe in Blizzard's desire to develop esports?). The fact that they didn't have any of that infrastructure and were reliant on Kespa just goes to show how much Kespa created on their own.
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On February 22 2010 05:18 T.O.P. wrote:
I'm not an expert towards legal issues at all but I think you can't compare the NFL to Blizzard. Blizzard invented the game. But it's Kespa's players who are playing the game. If you say that blizzard owns the copyright towards videos created in a game then all the fpvod streams on livestream violate copyright. People won't be able to upload a video of their replay without getting it taken down on Youtube. I'm not saying that blizzard would go on youtube removing starcraft videos. It just seems ridiculous to me that blizzard could own the copyright over a game that I played.
You're missing the whole point, it's nothing to do with anything you've stated, it's the fact that Kespa are making a killing (lots of money) off Blizzard product.
Consider the Kespa history, they are the real greedy one here that are hindering the expansion of e-sports.
Does anyone know how much extra are Blizzard earning because of the e-sports? I can't really get a grasp because me and my friends don't go out and buy extra copy of Starcraft just because we are into the pro-scene.
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On February 22 2010 05:40 Kaniol wrote:Seriously WTF with the kespa love? We all know how greedy they are... Yes - partially it was them that made SC popular in Korea (only because they saw profit there, don't you dare to say that they were angels and made SC popular because they love people LOOOOL), however that's it. The one and only good side of kespa's actions was help in making SC more popular in 1 country. Now for the kespa's sins - idiotic rules that kill competition and fun from the game, taking TOTAL control of how esports look like, monopolisation. These are VERY huge sins, kespa is VERY egoistic so don't pretend that they are holy. "But making SC more popular in korea made possible for Blizz to earn more money". Right, from what? Selling BW, like 1-2 millions copies more than without kespa, that's not as huge as the money kespa earned with it's activity. It is TOTALLY unfair that the people that made the game earned from it less than kespa Blizzard is in no way "bad" or "greedy", they have no problems with us doing anything with this game that is legal, they don't kill any competition with cheap tricks like kespa did to GOM, they care about community, read our forums, considered our feedback about sc2 even before beta came out and patch their games even when they are 10 years old, they build fucking platform to play on and don't require even a single penny for using it - you only log in with your original game and go. Now, what did your "holy" gespa did that was generous and good to you? That's right, they only did what was profitable to them and killed fun out of anything that didn't bring them profit, not caring about us (no chat in games, no 2v2, no GOM) Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 05:31 KlaCkoN wrote:
(...)
Do you guys think kespa should be paying royalties to dell (or which ever company) for using their computers as well?
(...) The most failed argument ever. Is kespa streaming the video of dell computers or of SC games? :|
I don't see what this has to do with wether blizzard should charge money for kespa to broadcast sc2 games, your argument is "we all hate kespa becuase they don't govern starcraft to my standard of efficently and fairness and their rules are not favourable to what I think most people would like to see, and thier buniess stratgey of agression is in my opnion immoral(despite the fact that capatalist compnies shouldn't be expected really to exercise a moral code out of pure good-will anyways) so lets make them pay for tv broadcasting to spite them" I really don't see this as logical. Also i think 1-2million copies is a bit of a low estimation about the amount of slaes the pro-scene has generted (yes i am assuming that kespa is the pro-scene and without them there wouldn't be one). If anyone should be to blame for the GOM situation it should be the korean government, they should use some sort of monoply act or protection against this kind of behaviour, like any western country the companies are expected to make money foremost before anything else and the government really should be the ones stepping in with legislation to make/encourage them to act along some sort of morality.
The pro-scene could not happen without cameras right? So how does that process work? the company buys the cameras, and then the broadcasting company decides what it wants to do with it. The same goes with starcraft, the game is not the only peice of equipment that is vital to the whole pro-gaming expeirence, so what should it have a roaylty price? In the same way that starcraft can be played on a Dell or a HewlertPlakard, starcraft and redalert can be both played on a Dell. The pro-scene can use other games like broodwar and other stratagies, it's not the only component, it's just the largest factor.
What blizzard should do is make it so that if you want to buy starcraft as a company to use to generate revenue instead of an individual, you must buy the buiness version of starcarft which is more expensive, much like how photoshop works with buiness liscences.
Something else to consider: It seems perfectly reasonable that blizzard would actually pay a third party company to run the competative scene like this, so why on earth should kespa be paying blizzard!?! when you put it like that it's rediculous.
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I think this is really simple. The way it should work (from a logical perspective, though perhaps not a legal one since laws are frequently tainted by the influence of large corporations), is like this: I purchase a product and then I can do with it as I please with the sole exception of violating copyright. The copyright applies only to the product itself and not derivative works. So if I buy a DVD and want to broadcast it to an audience then I have to pay royalties as the product is unaltered. When broadcasting a game however, the thing that is being sold is the match being played, which is a derivative, and wholly new work, and should not require royalties paid to the developer of the game. The game really is just a tool for creating the broadcast, just like you might use software like Maya to create a 3D animation, and you don't have to pay royalties.
From a previous poster it seems like the law in Korea already recognizes this and actually works that way in most cases, hence KeSPA doesn't pay royalties for BW but Blizzard decided to cut out LAN play to get some sort of loophole where they can force KeSPA to pay up. Way to go Blizzard.
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On February 22 2010 04:07 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 03:58 Failsafe wrote:
From a strictly practical standpoint, I don't want to see leagues or organizations paying fees to Blizzard because it reduces the profitability of ventures that will expand e-sports. That means we'll see less organizations/leagues that are working to expand e-sports, and I think that's a bad thing.
Blizzard charges a fee to purchase its games and I think that in most cases that's enough. Organizations that commercialize the game being played don't need to pay fees to Blizzard. I'd probably change my opinion on that if Blizzard went a few extra miles by creating features that encouraged commercialization by organizations like KeSPA, etc Yeah, I agree. If Blizzard charges a fee then they should be providing some kind of e-Sports related service with the money generated by that fee. It would suck to see that money ending up going toward the development of Blizzard's other games or some other dead end. Let that money be recycled back into e-Sports!
Blizzard invested a lot of resources on the front-end to make Sc2 e-sports friendly. Take, for example, the enhanced observer mode and replay features. Blizzard added these features to make watching competitive Sc2 more enjoyable/informative. We have some of these features (e.g. the resources and unit-counting overlay seen in the TSL) for Sc1, but 3rd parties had to create them from scratch, iirc. If you've followed the game's development, you know Blizzard designed the base game with e-sports in mind, which is something you can't say about Sc1. How you quantify these front-end investments I'm not sure. But I do think they should count for something.
I'm also curious (and intrigued) by what a Blizzard-supported "e-sports related service" would look like. Just about everything I can think of that would qualify as such (tournaments themselves, casts other production stuff etc) is done by the licensee (otherwise there would be no product to sell). But an interesting thought worth pondering more.
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On February 22 2010 05:35 ComradeDover wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 05:31 KlaCkoN wrote:
You argument litterally is, "some people don't agree with me they must be nazi supporters!!!!"
I mean what? No. My argument is literally "People aren't very happy with Blizzard, and are willing to take the side of less-than-favorable alternatives in their opposition." Using Hitler's name was just for dramatic effect. Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 05:31 KlaCkoN wrote:
Do you guys think kespa should be paying royalties to dell (or which ever company) for using their computers as well? Dell computers aren't intellectual property. Why not look at something that Kespa is already paying royalties for, the music they use? That's a far better analogy. Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 05:31 KlaCkoN wrote:
Should TL be paying royalties since the main reason the site exists (and makes add revenue) is by supplying videos of brood war games and discussion related to them? TL doesn't make money...I don't think it does, at least.
No your argument was "literally" that people opposing you must be nazi supporters, you then expanded on it but that was indeed what you "literally" said.
And I am quite sure there was a thread about a couple of admins being offered money to sell the site, they didnt because the offer was too low (less than a million or something ) but it still means that they are producing something of real monetary value primarly relying on blizzards product, at least according to your argument.
However i'd say, to reiterate what I already mentioned: OSL MSL and TSL are not blizzard products.
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France2061 Posts
On February 22 2010 06:03 furymonkey wrote:
Consider the Kespa history, they are the real greedy one here that are hindering the expansion of e-sports.
These arguments about Kespa's "greed" don't make any sense (neither do those about Blizzard's "greed", by the way, they're just being short-sighted). It isn't Kespa's fault that other countries don't have proscenes, nor is it Kespa's responsibility. It's a bit ridiculous seeing people blame a South Korean company catering to a South Korean market for the lack of esports in their own countries. If we're even having a conversation about potential future proscenes in the rest of the world, it's thanks to Kespa showing the way with the Korean proscene.
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That's right. Blizzard should pay KeSPA. Even if just for all the free advertising time on TV they get because of that.
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France2061 Posts
On February 22 2010 06:03 furymonkey wrote:
Consider the Kespa history, they are the real greedy one here that are hindering the expansion of e-sports.
Double post. My bad!
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On February 22 2010 06:08 Goragoth wrote:
I think this is really simple. The way it should work (from a logical perspective, though perhaps not a legal one since laws are frequently tainted by the influence of large corporations), is like this: I purchase a product and then I can do with it as I please with the sole exception of violating copyright. The copyright applies only to the product itself and not derivative works. So if I buy a DVD and want to broadcast it to an audience then I have to pay royalties as the product is unaltered. When broadcasting a game however, the thing that is being sold is the match being played, which is a derivative, and wholly new work, and should not require royalties paid to the developer of the game. The game really is just a tool for creating the broadcast, just like you might use software like Maya to create a 3D animation, and you don't have to pay royalties.
From a previous poster it seems like the law in Korea already recognizes this and actually works that way in most cases, hence KeSPA doesn't pay royalties for BW but Blizzard decided to cut out LAN play to get some sort of loophole where they can force KeSPA to pay up. Way to go Blizzard.
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Showing someone else's game on TV for money = not greedy?
But Asking for royalties on your own video game = greedy?
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On February 22 2010 06:16 EximoSua wrote:
Showing someone else's game on TV for money = not greedy?
But Asking for royalties on your own video game = greedy?
In the form of an artist using paints:
Showing someone else's paints in a gallery for money = not greedy?
But Asking for royalties on your own paints = greedy?
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this topic is going nowhere
here is the fact:
1) Kespa cant do shit with SC2, if they do illegal servers Blizzard will kill them for blatant pirating. Hell the US Government will be very angry at S. Korea and Korea knows that w/o the US they will be pussy-shit
2) SC2 will get realllllyyyy BIG globally, meaning Korea wont be that big of a factor for it. Sorry but its true, larger player base means that more people will be skilled and can play at a pro level. Hell Koreans will play SC2 but wont go pro with Kespa and join some league that does play by Blizzards generous rules
3) Pro's like ARTOSIS even think Kespa should stfu and pay Blizz
4) Since Blizzard is such a disappointment do us a favor and dont buy the game, dont play the game, in fact leave anything and everything Blizzard related
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On February 22 2010 05:41 ComradeDover wrote:
This little drama will never have a chance to play itself out with SC2. No LAN = no offline broadcasts (What Kespa has been doing so far). If Kespa wants SC2, they'll have to do it through Bnet (The only way to play multiplayer SC2), and that requires a different license that they don't have. Either they'll pay up or they'll ignore SC2, but they can't keep doing what they've been doing.
Just to note, there are already shows on OGN that broadcast Battle.net games so don't be so sure they won't be able to show games just because they're not on LAN..
On February 22 2010 06:24 Windblade wrote:
this topic is going nowhere
here is the fact:
1) Kespa cant do shit with SC2, if they do illegal servers Blizzard will kill them for blatant pirating. Hell the US Government will be very angry at S. Korea and Korea knows that w/o the US they will be pussy-shit
2) SC2 will get realllllyyyy BIG globally, meaning Korea wont be that big of a factor for it. Sorry but its true, larger player base means that more people will be skilled and can play at a pro level. Hell Koreans will play SC2 but wont go pro with Kespa and join some league that does play by Blizzards generous rules
3) Pro's like ARTOSIS even think Kespa should stfu and pay Blizz
KeSPA doesn't need to make illegal servers and the US Government won't say anything about something so stupid as a dispute over eSports broadcasting rights. Most likely KeSPA will just go on and broadcast what they want and Blizzard will take them to court over it and lose just like they've done before.
Regardless of SC2's success, S.Korea will still remain a huge factor simply because it already has a huge pro-gaming infrastructure in place already and Korean pros will ultimately support Korean leagues since they're the ones with sponsorships and pro-gaming teams in place.
The fact that Artosis believes KeSPA should pay means nothing. He's just another person with his own OPINION.
For some reason I suspect that a lot of the people supporting Blizzard here have absolutely no idea as to what KeSPA actually or simply can't grasp why the other side believes it makes no sense for KeSPA to have to pay Blizzard royalties to broadcast a game they legitimately purchased. KeSPA is the Koren eSports PLAYERS Association. If you believe that people who play games should pay Blizzard royalties for selling the rights to watch them play, then you've got other things you need to sort out in your head...
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Heart - Blizzard has more extensive copyright and EULA's in place for SC2. They cant get away with B.Net games
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Do PC Rooms pay royalties to game companies for making money through lettign people play games?
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Nice example Goragoth.
If we make some nice wallpapers in Adobe Photoshop and the sell them, we only pay for the program not for the result that is made by us. So when we sell the pictures we don't have to pay nothing to adobe.
I think this is the end of this thread with Kespa WIN.
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On February 22 2010 06:09 snowdrift86 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 06:03 furymonkey wrote:
Consider the Kespa history, they are the real greedy one here that are hindering the expansion of e-sports. These arguments about Kespa's "greed" don't make any sense (neither do those about Blizzard's "greed", by the way, they're just being short-sighted). It isn't Kespa's fault that other countries don't have proscenes, nor is it Kespa's responsibility. It's a bit ridiculous seeing people blame a South Korean company catering to a South Korean market for the lack of esports in their own countries. If we're even having a conversation about potential future proscenes in the rest of the world, it's thanks to Kespa showing the way with the Korean proscene.
Actually, they do make snese.
From what I've read earlier in this thread, it's already been revealed that Blizzard attempted to do a league they sponsored through GOM and have English broadcasts, but KeSPA killed it by barring all the teams from participating, despite the fact that it was actually garnering a decent number of viewers outside of South Korea, which could lead to more and more viewers, more leagues, and finally get rid of some of that stigma that sport-like gaming has in many countries. And no one is really blaming KeSPA entirely I don't think, but they are hindering the expansion. There are other, non-KeSPA factors involved in this.
Also, it's really a non-issue about royalties. You don't use someone else's product to make money for yourself without giving them a share. It doesn't fly with just about anything else, I don't see why KeSPA should be exempt. Just because they made South Korean eSports more organized and helped it's popularity growth in just that country, doesn't make them any more entitled to using other people's IP's for their own goals. I don't believe Blizzard should attempt to crush them, but KeSPA needs to comply somewhere here.
I know that Boxer is interested in expanding eSports around the globe, so I wonder if he knows about this stuff and if he does, it would be interesting to see his view on it. I dunno if it would help, but it would be interesting.
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Yeah, we will have to scroll down 50 pages of copyrights before we can click the "accept and install bottom" ^^
Just sucks that lan support for taken out partially because of all this shit :/
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Rage, if Artosis is a good indication, then most pro's are pro-Blizzard
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On February 22 2010 06:32 RageOverdose wrote:
Also, it's really a non-issue about royalties. You don't use someone else's product to make money for yourself without giving them a share. It doesn't fly with just about anything else, I don't see why KeSPA should be exempt.
Have you not read the last 2 pages, clearly stating that actually in most examples products are used without paying royalties? Like photoshop, the microphones the casters use, the cameras, the seats, the computers, the sports equipment in NFL?
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On February 22 2010 06:26 Windblade wrote:
Heart - Blizzard has more extensive copyright and EULA's in place for SC2. They cant get away with B.Net games
The problem with your thinking is that they'll ultimately be arguing in a Korean court where the law is that if you buy something, you can use it for broadcast, which is the very reason why they couldn't get anything for SCBW.
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I don't know. I remember reading somewhere that going to games is for free, so I don't think they can make too much money, well not much compared to what blizzard is making. Plus progamers are one of the most underpayed athletes in the world. So yea, I think it should be free.
On February 22 2010 06:32 RageOverdose wrote:
From what I've read earlier in this thread, it's already been revealed that Blizzard attempted to do a league they sponsored through GOM and have English broadcasts, but KeSPA killed it by barring all the teams from participating, despite the fact that it was actually garnering a decent number of viewers outside of South Korea, which could lead to more and more viewers, more leagues, and finally get rid of some of that stigma that sport-like gaming has in many countries. And no one is really blaming KeSPA entirely I don't think, but they are hindering the expansion. There are other, non-KeSPA factors involved in this.
I think this is wrongly accusing KeSPA. I'm pretty sure it was the teams that refused to participate in GOM, saying that it was too much of a burden for the players. Like season 3, only half the teams participated because half of them refused to participate. If KeSPA was behind this, then why would they only ban half the teams from playing in it? Its because players themselves are getting overloaded by pl, osl, msl, and gom. People like jaedong and flash were in 3 individual leagues and a makes regular appearance in normal and ace match in the proleague. Because of all this factors, the teams decided to not participate in the least prestigious tournament in the scene, which was GOM.
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On February 22 2010 06:34 Windblade wrote:
Rage, if Artosis is a good indication, then most pro's are pro-Blizzard
Artosis is not and has never been even close to a brood war pro ><
I have no idea where you got that idea from.
He is however funnily enough employed (or at least was) by a site who relies among else on videos of brood war games for revenue. (scforall) I very much doubt they pay any royalties =p.
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On February 18 2010 14:54 Go0g3n wrote:
You got it wrong. KeSPA is a ruling agency (body) it doesn't pay anything to anybody. It's run by representative of Pro Teams and one each from OGN and MBC channels. They are the ones who will have to pay royalties for every single commercial broadcast involving StarCraft II, let alone all the sub-media that goes with it.
In US Blizzard would be entitled to a huge amount of royalties payments, in Korea it's enough to own a legal copy of the game to broadcast. Blizzard already tried to deal with relevant Korean authorities, but they were sent to "deal with KeSPA". They also tried to deal with MBC/OGN separately, failed there as well. But, and it's a big but, they can't broadcast games played over the web, i.e. on Battle.net, as it requires a completely different international license, which they won't get. Since there's no Lan - no broadcasts for now.
KeSPA answered by killing GOM. Blizzard was heavily sponsoring it, as it was getting more and more popular, probably aiming to build a platform for future SC2 broadcasts, leagues etc, they were shut down by decision of the majority KeSPA teams to not participate in GOM.
As said by artosis in a recent interview - it's a dead end with a lot of money at stake.
I covered all this in three KeSPA/Blizzard articles on GG.net
Another thing that's important is that Blizzard did absolutely nothing for StarCraft in terms of it's promotion and huge Korean and e-Sports success. They've even stopped supporting it after WC3 came out. It was KeSPA (at the time KPGA) who built the billion dollar industry of Korean StarCraft gaming and broadcasting.
On the other hand you have to realize that StarCraft broadcast is immensely profitable in Korea, be it on OGN, MBC, GOM, whatever. It costs next to nothing to create a 2+ hour broadcast that beats everything in 18-34 ratings - the most valued by advertisers. The costs are so low they can be only compared with a cheap-ass 30min/week game show, rather than 15hr/week of StarCraft broadcasts.
awesome post, thanks a bunch
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On February 22 2010 06:25 HeartOfTofu wrote:
(...). KeSPA is the Koren eSports PLAYERS Association. If you believe that people who play games should pay Blizzard royalties for selling the rights to watch them play, then you've got other things you need to sort out in your head...
Heh, kespa is korean esports players association. Guess how many players do they associate? >.>
This is just a name, players don't benefit from kespa, unless you state that making rules that make it almost IMPOSSIBLE to switch team (thus killing any competition between teams in terms of conditions for players and killing chances for getting better salaries to players) are something good for players :|
Kespa is bad, kespa wants to earn money from Blizzard's intellectual property - these are facts
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On February 22 2010 06:36 UdderChaos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 06:32 RageOverdose wrote:
Also, it's really a non-issue about royalties. You don't use someone else's product to make money for yourself without giving them a share. It doesn't fly with just about anything else, I don't see why KeSPA should be exempt. Have you not read the last 2 pages, clearly stating that actually in most examples products are used without paying royalties? Like photoshop, the microphones the casters use, the cameras, the seats, the computers, the sports equipment in NFL?
Photoshop doesn't need royalties because adobe charges $500 for its software. The same goes with microphones/cameras, to buy professional grade equipment, its insanely expensive because companies mark them up like crazy, not because they cost that much more to produce and they know that companies can and are willing to pay that much for it. Unfortunately, blizzard can't sell sc2 to KeSPA for $100,000 and sell it to everyone else for 50.
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here's a another example
what kespa is doing and is, would be considered illegal in the US. Now what does that say?
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Calgary25974 Posts
Can we stop citing Artosis? He's not a Korean e-sports reporter, he's an English-speaker in Korea.
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On February 22 2010 06:47 ejac wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 06:36 UdderChaos wrote:On February 22 2010 06:32 RageOverdose wrote:
Also, it's really a non-issue about royalties. You don't use someone else's product to make money for yourself without giving them a share. It doesn't fly with just about anything else, I don't see why KeSPA should be exempt. Have you not read the last 2 pages, clearly stating that actually in most examples products are used without paying royalties? Like photoshop, the microphones the casters use, the cameras, the seats, the computers, the sports equipment in NFL? blizzard can't sell sc2 to KeSPA for $100,000 and sell it to everyone else for 50.
Why not? (and actually i would say more like $400 per copy or something similar to that.)
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On February 22 2010 06:48 Windblade wrote:
here's a another example
what kespa is doing and is, would be considered illegal in the US. Now what does that say?
Nothing, cause the K in KeSPA stands for Korea.
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On February 22 2010 06:48 Windblade wrote:
here's a another example
what kespa is doing and is, would be considered illegal in the US. Now what does that say?
It says that US laws give companies more rights to how their products are used than Korea. That's all. Just because something is illegal in one country and not in another doesn't say anything at all. If I go to the Middle East, I could be jailed for having sex with my girlfriend because we're not married. Hell, in the US, I could be jailed for having an ounce of marijuana. Does this mean that it's as reasonable law just because the US happens to have it? Our view of property rights and intellectual property rights is subject to opinion and the overall consensus differs depending on where in the world you go. There are places in the world where the idea of "intellectual property" would be viewed as absurd while there are other places like the USA where they are taken much more seriously. There's really no definite right or wrong here... Some of us just view what Blizzard expects as being absurd given the circumstances. Obviously there are people like you who think that Blizzard is being completely reasonable. It all falls to how much control and possession a person should have over his creation once he has sold it.
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On February 22 2010 06:32 RageOverdose wrote:
From what I've read earlier in this thread, it's already been revealed that Blizzard attempted to do a league they sponsored through GOM and have English broadcasts, but KeSPA killed it by barring all the teams from participating, despite the fact that it was actually garnering a decent number of viewers outside of South Korea, which could lead to more and more viewers, more leagues, and finally get rid of some of that stigma that sport-like gaming has in many countries. And no one is really blaming KeSPA entirely I don't think, but they are hindering the expansion. There are other, non-KeSPA factors involved in this.
I think this is wrongly accusing KeSPA. I'm pretty sure it was the teams that refused to participate in GOM, saying that it was too much of a burden for the players. Like season 3, only half the teams participated because half of them refused to participate. If KeSPA was behind this, then why would they only ban half the teams from playing in it? Its because players themselves are getting overloaded by pl, osl, msl, and gom. People like jaedong and flash were in 3 individual leagues and made regular appearance in normal and ace match in the proleague. Because of all this factors, the teams decided to not participate in the least prestigious tournament in the scene, which was GO
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On February 22 2010 06:48 Windblade wrote:
here's a another example
what kespa is doing and is, would be considered illegal in the US. Now what does that say?
That US is a shit country favoring companies and limiting freedom of normal citizens among other things .
If I was kespa I would boycott the game and choose another and keep sc1..
Lets see how greedy blizzard likes that.. Starcraft would be nothing without them..
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On February 22 2010 06:36 UdderChaos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 06:32 RageOverdose wrote:
Also, it's really a non-issue about royalties. You don't use someone else's product to make money for yourself without giving them a share. It doesn't fly with just about anything else, I don't see why KeSPA should be exempt. Have you not read the last 2 pages, clearly stating that actually in most examples products are used without paying royalties? Like photoshop, the microphones the casters use, the cameras, the seats, the computers, the sports equipment in NFL?
I read the whole topic.
I also read the comments talking about the tools. I'm pretty sure something like Photoshop does not need royalties because it isn't being broadcasted over television/internet as something for people to view that makes the broadcasting company money. I'm pretty sure no broadcaster has to do more than pay the company for the tools because said tools are on the market for such occasions.
Besides, if the product brand name used is not identifiable on broadcast, the argument is moot anyway, and sometimes broadcasters can use products for lower prices through endorsements I believe. But most of these tools are made and sold for the very purpose of broadcasting. The seats? Those are so generic that I doubt copyright even applies to them.
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my point is the US is more fair in its laws regarding companies
no its much more fair in laws regarding property and copyrights. That is the point.
"the us is a shit country"
since i calmed down - You're maturity astounds me.
Oh and as a person knowledgeable with Islam, i would very much like to point out; All these "muslim" countries are NOT Islamic AT ALL. Their national rules, laws, practices are not representative of what the religion teaches. Religiously sleeping w/ your girlfriend is a sin, however that's your problem. Nowhere does it say you should be jailed or that you CAN be jailed. Point is the countries are disgraces to the religion and give it a bad name
this topic is going nowhere
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Blizzard just wants to piss KeSPA off, They are going to keep harassing and expanding till they own all of the expansions possible.
No joke.
That US is a shit country favoring companies and limiting freedom of normal citizens among other things .
If I was crazy I would boycott the game and choose another and keep nothing.
Lets see how greedy blizzard likes that.. Starcraft would be better without them..
Your on crack..and fixed a few errors.
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On February 22 2010 07:00 Windblade wrote:
my point is the US is more fair in its laws regarding companies
no its much more fair in laws regarding property and copyrights. That is the point.
"the us is a shit country"
ok shithole, the US is the dominant country in the world, and is the only thing keeping South Korea alive. I may not agree with everything the US does, but i sure as hell know that it has no equal when it comes to liberty.
this topic is going nowhere
You are a good example why I'm occasionally embarrassed to be an American.
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On February 18 2010 15:10 meegrean wrote:
Blizzard shouldn't get a cut from Kespa. I mean, Blizzard is already going to make a lot of money from the guaranteed sales anyway. The progaming scene in Korea is seriously like a huge free advertisement for Blizzard. If Blizzard wants to make additional money, they should do it their own way by making their own tournaments or something.
This imo.
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On February 22 2010 07:10 ejac wrote:
You are a good example why I'm occasionally embarrassed to be an American.
o rly? I didnt say anything ignorant. and actually it is true that South Korea would get butt-raped by North Korea if the US wasn't there. But yes i did get pissed T_T
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It comes down to interpretation of IP laws. If blizzard puts in their EULA that we can't let people watch us play starcraft, then they have rights to demand royalties for broadcasting SC2. If they don't, then they have no reason to demand royalties. Blizzard makes and sells games and thats how they make their money. If they want money from tournaments they need to be hosting their own.
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On February 22 2010 07:08 StalkerSC wrote:
Your on crack..and fixed a few errors.
My what?
Its funny how its always the English native speakers that don't know how to write in their own language..
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I think legally blizzard does have ownership over broadcasts and I do agree that they should. I also think it's in blizzard's best interest to licence leagues/Kespa/etc.
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A lot of terrible, terrible logic in this thread. This is about what Blizzard can and cannot do, and theoretically I guess what the ideal laws would be. Things like "blizzard makes enough money... therefore kespa should have the right do broadcast" implies that you support a law where if a company doesn't make a certain amount of money from their game, they own the broadcast rights to it, whereas if they do, they surrender their broadcast rights. Because that makes sense.
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i wonder who will crack first? i could see korean proleagues just carry on with sc1 no problem at all. although i could also see blizzard trying to establish its own proscene, but probably not in korea.
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On February 22 2010 07:29 cz wrote:
A lot of terrible, terrible logic in this thread. This is about what Blizzard can and cannot do, and theoretically I guess what the ideal laws would be. Things like "blizzard makes enough money... therefore kespa should have the right do broadcast" implies that you support a law where if a company doesn't make a certain amount of money from their game, they own the broadcast rights to it, whereas if they do, they surrender their broadcast rights. Because that makes sense.
Admittedly ultimately blizzard can do whatever the fuck they want, it's their Starcraft2. It's just a shame, if there was competition of lots of good spectator e-sports that were well balanced blizzard would be forced to act reasonably, which would be to charge a license fee (like photoshop) but not royalties.
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Who owns the intellectual property rights of intellectual property rights? Seems like a logical circle to me.
Anyway I don't think that Blizzard should focusing on charging people for broadcasting SC2 games. Blizzard should instead spend their time and money on creating their own BETTER SC2 broadcasting network. KeSPA isn't perfect, and I would love to see Blizzard create some healthy competition. Maybe Blizzard could even steal some players for their own well-paid, well-treated pro-team.
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With regards to KeSPA greed vs Blizzard greed I just want to say both are greedy corporations (but then again greed is essentially a part of the definition for corporations). Who is greedier is not really an interesting argument, but in this specific instance I would side with KeSPA, not because I think they are this great company full of happy and nice people who just so desperately want to do the right thing, but because I favour very loose IP laws that encourage artistic freedom and don't stifle it. I'm also sick of this corporate profit entitlement BS that gets thrown about a lot, that just because a company (or individual for that matter) made a product they are entitled to make money from everything associated with it until the end of time. Copyright is an artificial scarcity scheme invented to incentivise the creation of new intellectual and artistic works. That is all. It is not like Blizzard has no incentive to create SCII for example, if they can't have the broadcast rights to every game played. That's ridiculous.
I do want to say though, that the analogy to content creation software doesn't hold that much water (I admit I made a bit of a blunder mentioning it, as people took that rather literally), since there is other Blizzard IP involved (storyline, artwork, sounds, etc...). Also a better example might be using a screen captured video of e.g. Photoshop to create a training video that is sold for money but it still doesn't compare directly. It is rather easy to oversimplify this issue by making comparisons like this. Similarly you might say that it is wrong to use somebody else's 3D model in a for-profit CG movie without permission/paying royalties. The important distinction here, I think, is that Blizzard is selling SC2 as a computer game and not an e-Sports virtual arena or something (in which case they would be right to demand royalties) and that KeSPA is using the game to create a derivative product (the matches) that are separate from Blizzards product (the game). In the end it is a fine distinction that shouldn't be oversimplified and where you stand depends a lot on how you feel about IP laws.
In the end the lawyers will decide the issue anyway, and if it is in fact true that under Korean law Blizzard can demand royalties for games, then KeSPA (or more specifically OGN/MBC) should in fact just pay up, work it out and make SC2 pro games a reality.
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On February 22 2010 07:29 cz wrote:
A lot of terrible, terrible logic in this thread. This is about what Blizzard can and cannot do, and theoretically I guess what the ideal laws would be. Things like "blizzard makes enough money... therefore kespa should have the right do broadcast" implies that you support a law where if a company doesn't make a certain amount of money from their game, they own the broadcast rights to it, whereas if they do, they surrender their broadcast rights. Because that makes sense.
The main issue is not what Blizzard has the right to do but what is better for ESPORTS.
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I have only recently become enraptured by the SC:BW scene and have been following this debate extensively (partly because i'm fascinated by law and business practices). I really have no background in either so the following are mere speculation but hopefully reasoned 
It seems to me that KESPA is at a severe disadvantage for the upcoming release of SC2. I think everyone can agree that they were extremely influential in the development of SC as an e-sports entity and that they really built it from the ground up. On the flip side Blizzard got screwed on the royalties. I've seen many examples comparing KESPA to a major sports league and treating blizzard as the games inventor when i believe the better comparison would be Blizzard as the sports franchise owners and broadcasting stations as KESPA. I would expect the NFL or NHL to be pissed is someone set up games and broadcasted them and made money. It comes down to Blizzard OWNERSHIP of SC, If KESPA owns SC then no problems, they can do whatever they want but i strongly suspect that is not the case.
The disadvantage i see KESPA in right now is that they have established a model for e-sports that has been shown to be profitable, meaning there will be a large quantity of people who would be willing to step in and jump start a new business that will make money. Make no mistake, Blizzard does not need Kespa now that Kespa has laid a foundation. It may be more costly to start up but if blizzard decides to go elsewhere there will be people interested in making a profit and so willing to step into KESPA's role for SC2.
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On February 22 2010 07:39 Treliant wrote:
The disadvantage i see KESPA in right now is that they have established a model for e-sports that has been shown to be profitable, meaning there will be a large quantity of people who would be willing to step in and jump start a new business that will make money. Make no mistake, Blizzard does not need Kespa now that Kespa has laid a foundation. It may be more costly to start up but if blizzard decides to go elsewhere there will be people interested in making a profit and so willing to step into KESPA's role for SC2.
That's a great point. If KeSPA decides not to move to SC2, then someone else in Korea will start their own SC2 team gaming network.
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the core argument is not about esports -.-
in that regards, no one cares. Why? because unless your in Korea you dont care about Kespa since they only are a korean esports league.
and blizzard could state that "no televised broadcast of the material is allowed without authorization" which means you cant show matches on TV w/o permission, but you can put replays up on youtube.
There is a possibly way around this - Blizz throws SC2 support to a new Korean association, but ill be surprised if someone in korea actually starts a new one. Id like to see the reaction if someone like Boxer said that Blizz is right. *Crickets*
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On February 22 2010 03:31 HeartOfTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 03:19 Captain Peabody wrote:
Kespa is playing a very dangerous game here. If SC2 really takes off in Korea, then eventually it's going to be more profitable for Kespa to just pay Blizzard's fees and broadcast SC2 than it will be to continue broadcasting SC1 for free; but at that point, Kespa will have little bargaining power left. Right now, they have a great deal.
So, short of actually banning the game in Korea altogether (is this actually possible, by the way?), Kespa's best option is to negotiate a favorable agreement with Blizzard now. KeSPA is honestly not playing a dangerous game at all. If they can't get the rights for whatever reason or are unwilling to pay for them, they'll just either broadcast a different game or wait for a Korean company to create a suitable clone to broadcast. If you actually sit down and watch the OGN channel, you'll notice that other than games like Starcraft and Street Fighter 4, it's pretty much all Korean-made games that are unheard of anywhere else in the world. Some of them are pretty blatant rip-offs of other game (Sudden Attack/Special Forces)... The only real issue here is that Korea is one of the only countries with an actually established professional eSports infrastructure and Blizzard wants to profit from it while the Koreans don't want to give Blizzard money for something that they feel that they themselves created.
I am sorry, but it is not as simple as that. Infact, a lot of people in this thread seem to be overestimating KeSPA`s position in this matter.
Yes, the Korean e-Sports scene is filled with Korean-made games and blatant rip-offs....but do you honestly think any of those games are doing particularly well? Ever since the beginning of the e-Sport(s) industry, StarCraft has remained the most dominant game both in terms of viewers as well as sponsorship. In spite of many attempts, other games have just been unable to take off. The only Korean game that can be considered somewhat successful is Special Forces and even that has more to do with the fan service and FireBatHero-esque stunts the players pull off rather then the game itself. The fact that SF needs to compete with Sudden Attack as well as Counter-Strike itself does not help it much either.
Compounding the problem further is another problem and that is the fact that StarCraft is no longer bringing the numbers it used to. It was always a niché market, so it is not like it had a mainstream following at any point. However, even two years ago, we could still talk of a multi-million audience. The latest OSL Finals were watched by about half a million viewers. When you consider what I just said a sentence earlier, that is actually quite disastrous. The fact that StarCraft no longer dominates PC bangs and that even events with old-school players are not getting as much attention as before (IeSF, for example, went completely under the radar of a lot of people) hardly help the issue.
So what needs to be done in order to solve the problem? Well, ultimately, more e-Sports oriented games need be developed. But before that can happen, developers need to see that it is wortwhile to develop games with e-Sports in mind. And in order for that to happen, a game needs to appear that will not only succeed in the Korean market, but have enormous potential for growth by having a significant audience outside of Korea as well. Basically, the Korean e-Sports industry needs a new game that would take over the mantle and champion it`s cause. And out of all the options available (which are, quite frankly, limited), StarCraft II is by far the title with the most realistic chances to do that.
Do not misunderstand, Blizzard stands to lose a significiant market if SC2 progaming does not take off in Korea. However, KeSPA needs StarCraft II just as much as Blizzard needs the Korean market, if not moreso.
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I can understand why Blizzard wants payment. It's their product, they want money for their hard work, and of course they're a corporation so profits are their priority. That said I don't agree with them. KeSPA isn't selling StarCraft for people to play, KeSPA is broadcasting high level gameplay for fans to watch. It just so happens there are lots of fans and advertisers are willing to pay them to play ads during said broadcast. As long as they purchased their copies legitimately they should be able to do what they want with their property, insofar as they don't turn around and sell the game itself.
This goes to the heart of the issue of digital property. Corporations want to tightly control it so as to squeeze every nickel and dime possible out of customers. I say fuck 'em, I bought it and I'll do what I damn well please with it short of selling it.
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Kespa is looking out for their interest in Korean E-Sports. Blizzard has a much, much, much broader picture to paint. They care about a global e-sports development for their game. If they allow Kespa to do as they please then it will set a bad example for what they're trying to do.... whatever that is. But ignoring Kespa and letting Korea do its thing could in turn lead to other companies/countries possibly trying similar stances.
I imagine Blizzard simply wants to stand firm on the issue so that it goes no further. Ultimately, if SC2 is successful as we all hope it is, then Kespa will be relatively meaningless as the game explodes beyond its simple borders. We focus so much on such a small scene, that it's easy to lose the big picture of millions and millions of possible new players in SC2 to spring up with new players, leagues, events all throughout the world.
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On February 22 2010 08:11 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
Kespa is looking out for their interest in Korean E-Sports. Blizzard has a much, much, much broader picture to paint. They care about a global e-sports development for their game. If they allow Kespa to do as they please then it will set a bad example for what they're trying to do.... whatever that is. But ignoring Kespa and letting Korea do its thing could in turn lead to other companies/countries possibly trying similar stances.
I imagine Blizzard simply wants to stand firm on the issue so that it goes no further. Ultimately, if SC2 is successful as we all hope it is, then Kespa will be relatively meaningless as the game explodes beyond its simple borders. We focus so much on such a small scene, that it's easy to lose the big picture of millions and millions of possible new players in SC2 to spring up with new players, leagues, events all throughout the world.
Actually, trying to control KeSPA will stifle the SC2 esports scene. Letting peeps do their own things is what would allow leagues to flourish.
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On February 22 2010 08:15 madsweepslol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2010 08:11 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
Kespa is looking out for their interest in Korean E-Sports. Blizzard has a much, much, much broader picture to paint. They care about a global e-sports development for their game. If they allow Kespa to do as they please then it will set a bad example for what they're trying to do.... whatever that is. But ignoring Kespa and letting Korea do its thing could in turn lead to other companies/countries possibly trying similar stances.
I imagine Blizzard simply wants to stand firm on the issue so that it goes no further. Ultimately, if SC2 is successful as we all hope it is, then Kespa will be relatively meaningless as the game explodes beyond its simple borders. We focus so much on such a small scene, that it's easy to lose the big picture of millions and millions of possible new players in SC2 to spring up with new players, leagues, events all throughout the world. Actually, trying to control KeSPA will stifle the SC2 esports scene. Letting peeps do their own things is what would allow leagues to flourish.
That's irrational fear on your part at this point. Blizzard isn't attempting to control, run, or operate Kespa.... yet. Right now this almost pure speculation and rumors on all of our parts, but if Blizzard wanted to do everything on the e-sports scene themselves; we'd know about it by now.
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You're right, I should have phrased that better. Blizzard isn't trying to control KeSPA per se, but trying to nickel and dime everything still isn't good for SCII esports.
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There's so many fanboys on Blizzard's side here that would be on Blizzard's side no matter what.
All I can say is, asking royalties for broadcasting a game can only hurt esports more than it can help it. If anyone dreams of ever seeing a north american or an european SC2 proleague on TV, royalties to use the game would just kill any possible attempt to make any profit out of it outside Korea. Hell, I wonder if the whole SC1 proscene would have been possible in Korea if they had to pay royalties right from the start, when the game was young and still not that popular.
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If we can stream our own SC2 games for free, KesPA should be able to put SC2 up on TV for free, just imo.
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Lepape:
You do know that abc/nbc/fox/espn they all pay the NFL, NHL, MLB to broadcast games right? You're argument got debunked
and yeah we can stream it, because we arent charging money or making money off the stream. KeSPA makes money off the broadcast which iis the major difference and argument. They are using a product that they do not own in anyway to make a profit while you just let people watch you play for 0 profit.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Kespa made tens of millions in profits last year. Do you still think they are just doing this because they are nice guys who like e-sports?
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On February 22 2010 08:38 Windblade wrote:
Lepape:
You do know that abc/nbc/fox/espn they all pay the NFL, NHL, MLB to broadcast games right? You're argument got debunked
In your example, Fox is Ongamenet and the NFL is KeSPA.
Blizzard is nothing but the game developper, that makes insane profit just from getting their games shown on TV and viewers buying them.
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On February 22 2010 08:34 lepape wrote:
There's so many fanboys on Blizzard's side here that would be on Blizzard's side no matter what.
All I can say is, asking royalties for broadcasting a game can only hurt esports more than it can help it. If anyone dreams of ever seeing a north american or an european SC2 proleague on TV, royalties to use the game would just kill any possible attempt to make any profit out of it outside Korea. Hell, I wonder if the whole SC1 proscene would have been possible in Korea if they had to pay royalties right from the start, when the game was young and still not that popular.
the response was to that
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
I'm closing this. I cant take the stupidity anymore. Please don't pm me about closing this.
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