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Blizzard vs. KeSPA - Page 9

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cz
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States3249 Posts
February 21 2010 22:26 GMT
#161
I think legally blizzard does have ownership over broadcasts and I do agree that they should. I also think it's in blizzard's best interest to licence leagues/Kespa/etc.
cz
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States3249 Posts
February 21 2010 22:29 GMT
#162
A lot of terrible, terrible logic in this thread. This is about what Blizzard can and cannot do, and theoretically I guess what the ideal laws would be. Things like "blizzard makes enough money... therefore kespa should have the right do broadcast" implies that you support a law where if a company doesn't make a certain amount of money from their game, they own the broadcast rights to it, whereas if they do, they surrender their broadcast rights. Because that makes sense.
zee
Profile Joined January 2010
201 Posts
February 21 2010 22:32 GMT
#163
i wonder who will crack first? i could see korean proleagues just carry on with sc1 no problem at all. although i could also see blizzard trying to establish its own proscene, but probably not in korea.
UdderChaos
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United Kingdom707 Posts
February 21 2010 22:33 GMT
#164
On February 22 2010 07:29 cz wrote:
A lot of terrible, terrible logic in this thread. This is about what Blizzard can and cannot do, and theoretically I guess what the ideal laws would be. Things like "blizzard makes enough money... therefore kespa should have the right do broadcast" implies that you support a law where if a company doesn't make a certain amount of money from their game, they own the broadcast rights to it, whereas if they do, they surrender their broadcast rights. Because that makes sense.


Admittedly ultimately blizzard can do whatever the fuck they want, it's their Starcraft2. It's just a shame, if there was competition of lots of good spectator e-sports that were well balanced blizzard would be forced to act reasonably, which would be to charge a license fee (like photoshop) but not royalties.
Nunquam iens addo vos sursum
Xlancer
Profile Joined February 2010
United States126 Posts
February 21 2010 22:34 GMT
#165
Who owns the intellectual property rights of intellectual property rights? Seems like a logical circle to me.

Anyway I don't think that Blizzard should focusing on charging people for broadcasting SC2 games. Blizzard should instead spend their time and money on creating their own BETTER SC2 broadcasting network. KeSPA isn't perfect, and I would love to see Blizzard create some healthy competition. Maybe Blizzard could even steal some players for their own well-paid, well-treated pro-team.
“The only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history.” - Friedrich Hegel
Goragoth
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
New Zealand1065 Posts
February 21 2010 22:35 GMT
#166
With regards to KeSPA greed vs Blizzard greed I just want to say both are greedy corporations (but then again greed is essentially a part of the definition for corporations). Who is greedier is not really an interesting argument, but in this specific instance I would side with KeSPA, not because I think they are this great company full of happy and nice people who just so desperately want to do the right thing, but because I favour very loose IP laws that encourage artistic freedom and don't stifle it. I'm also sick of this corporate profit entitlement BS that gets thrown about a lot, that just because a company (or individual for that matter) made a product they are entitled to make money from everything associated with it until the end of time. Copyright is an artificial scarcity scheme invented to incentivise the creation of new intellectual and artistic works. That is all. It is not like Blizzard has no incentive to create SCII for example, if they can't have the broadcast rights to every game played. That's ridiculous.

I do want to say though, that the analogy to content creation software doesn't hold that much water (I admit I made a bit of a blunder mentioning it, as people took that rather literally), since there is other Blizzard IP involved (storyline, artwork, sounds, etc...). Also a better example might be using a screen captured video of e.g. Photoshop to create a training video that is sold for money but it still doesn't compare directly. It is rather easy to oversimplify this issue by making comparisons like this. Similarly you might say that it is wrong to use somebody else's 3D model in a for-profit CG movie without permission/paying royalties. The important distinction here, I think, is that Blizzard is selling SC2 as a computer game and not an e-Sports virtual arena or something (in which case they would be right to demand royalties) and that KeSPA is using the game to create a derivative product (the matches) that are separate from Blizzards product (the game). In the end it is a fine distinction that shouldn't be oversimplified and where you stand depends a lot on how you feel about IP laws.

In the end the lawyers will decide the issue anyway, and if it is in fact true that under Korean law Blizzard can demand royalties for games, then KeSPA (or more specifically OGN/MBC) should in fact just pay up, work it out and make SC2 pro games a reality.
Creator of LoLTool.
Boblion
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
France8043 Posts
February 21 2010 22:35 GMT
#167
On February 22 2010 07:29 cz wrote:
A lot of terrible, terrible logic in this thread. This is about what Blizzard can and cannot do, and theoretically I guess what the ideal laws would be. Things like "blizzard makes enough money... therefore kespa should have the right do broadcast" implies that you support a law where if a company doesn't make a certain amount of money from their game, they own the broadcast rights to it, whereas if they do, they surrender their broadcast rights. Because that makes sense.

The main issue is not what Blizzard has the right to do but what is better for ESPORTS.
fuck all those elitists brb watching streams of elite players.
Treliant
Profile Joined August 2009
Canada4 Posts
February 21 2010 22:39 GMT
#168
I have only recently become enraptured by the SC:BW scene and have been following this debate extensively (partly because i'm fascinated by law and business practices). I really have no background in either so the following are mere speculation but hopefully reasoned

It seems to me that KESPA is at a severe disadvantage for the upcoming release of SC2. I think everyone can agree that they were extremely influential in the development of SC as an e-sports entity and that they really built it from the ground up. On the flip side Blizzard got screwed on the royalties. I've seen many examples comparing KESPA to a major sports league and treating blizzard as the games inventor when i believe the better comparison would be Blizzard as the sports franchise owners and broadcasting stations as KESPA. I would expect the NFL or NHL to be pissed is someone set up games and broadcasted them and made money. It comes down to Blizzard OWNERSHIP of SC, If KESPA owns SC then no problems, they can do whatever they want but i strongly suspect that is not the case.

The disadvantage i see KESPA in right now is that they have established a model for e-sports that has been shown to be profitable, meaning there will be a large quantity of people who would be willing to step in and jump start a new business that will make money. Make no mistake, Blizzard does not need Kespa now that Kespa has laid a foundation. It may be more costly to start up but if blizzard decides to go elsewhere there will be people interested in making a profit and so willing to step into KESPA's role for SC2.
Xlancer
Profile Joined February 2010
United States126 Posts
February 21 2010 22:44 GMT
#169
On February 22 2010 07:39 Treliant wrote:
The disadvantage i see KESPA in right now is that they have established a model for e-sports that has been shown to be profitable, meaning there will be a large quantity of people who would be willing to step in and jump start a new business that will make money. Make no mistake, Blizzard does not need Kespa now that Kespa has laid a foundation. It may be more costly to start up but if blizzard decides to go elsewhere there will be people interested in making a profit and so willing to step into KESPA's role for SC2.


That's a great point. If KeSPA decides not to move to SC2, then someone else in Korea will start their own SC2 team gaming network.
“The only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history.” - Friedrich Hegel
Windblade
Profile Joined July 2009
United States161 Posts
February 21 2010 22:44 GMT
#170
the core argument is not about esports -.-
in that regards, no one cares. Why? because unless your in Korea you dont care about Kespa since they only are a korean esports league.

and blizzard could state that "no televised broadcast of the material is allowed without authorization" which means you cant show matches on TV w/o permission, but you can put replays up on youtube.

There is a possibly way around this - Blizz throws SC2 support to a new Korean association, but ill be surprised if someone in korea actually starts a new one. Id like to see the reaction if someone like Boxer said that Blizz is right. *Crickets*
Tom Phoenix
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
1114 Posts
February 21 2010 22:47 GMT
#171
On February 22 2010 03:31 HeartOfTofu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2010 03:19 Captain Peabody wrote:
Kespa is playing a very dangerous game here. If SC2 really takes off in Korea, then eventually it's going to be more profitable for Kespa to just pay Blizzard's fees and broadcast SC2 than it will be to continue broadcasting SC1 for free; but at that point, Kespa will have little bargaining power left. Right now, they have a great deal.

So, short of actually banning the game in Korea altogether (is this actually possible, by the way?), Kespa's best option is to negotiate a favorable agreement with Blizzard now.


KeSPA is honestly not playing a dangerous game at all. If they can't get the rights for whatever reason or are unwilling to pay for them, they'll just either broadcast a different game or wait for a Korean company to create a suitable clone to broadcast. If you actually sit down and watch the OGN channel, you'll notice that other than games like Starcraft and Street Fighter 4, it's pretty much all Korean-made games that are unheard of anywhere else in the world. Some of them are pretty blatant rip-offs of other game (Sudden Attack/Special Forces)...

The only real issue here is that Korea is one of the only countries with an actually established professional eSports infrastructure and Blizzard wants to profit from it while the Koreans don't want to give Blizzard money for something that they feel that they themselves created.


I am sorry, but it is not as simple as that. Infact, a lot of people in this thread seem to be overestimating KeSPA`s position in this matter.

Yes, the Korean e-Sports scene is filled with Korean-made games and blatant rip-offs....but do you honestly think any of those games are doing particularly well? Ever since the beginning of the e-Sport(s) industry, StarCraft has remained the most dominant game both in terms of viewers as well as sponsorship. In spite of many attempts, other games have just been unable to take off. The only Korean game that can be considered somewhat successful is Special Forces and even that has more to do with the fan service and FireBatHero-esque stunts the players pull off rather then the game itself. The fact that SF needs to compete with Sudden Attack as well as Counter-Strike itself does not help it much either.

Compounding the problem further is another problem and that is the fact that StarCraft is no longer bringing the numbers it used to. It was always a niché market, so it is not like it had a mainstream following at any point. However, even two years ago, we could still talk of a multi-million audience. The latest OSL Finals were watched by about half a million viewers. When you consider what I just said a sentence earlier, that is actually quite disastrous. The fact that StarCraft no longer dominates PC bangs and that even events with old-school players are not getting as much attention as before (IeSF, for example, went completely under the radar of a lot of people) hardly help the issue.

So what needs to be done in order to solve the problem? Well, ultimately, more e-Sports oriented games need be developed. But before that can happen, developers need to see that it is wortwhile to develop games with e-Sports in mind. And in order for that to happen, a game needs to appear that will not only succeed in the Korean market, but have enormous potential for growth by having a significant audience outside of Korea as well. Basically, the Korean e-Sports industry needs a new game that would take over the mantle and champion it`s cause. And out of all the options available (which are, quite frankly, limited), StarCraft II is by far the title with the most realistic chances to do that.

Do not misunderstand, Blizzard stands to lose a significiant market if SC2 progaming does not take off in Korea. However, KeSPA needs StarCraft II just as much as Blizzard needs the Korean market, if not moreso.
You and your "5 years of competitive RTS experience" can take a hike. - FrozenArbiter
madsweepslol
Profile Joined February 2010
161 Posts
February 21 2010 22:58 GMT
#172
I can understand why Blizzard wants payment. It's their product, they want money for their hard work, and of course they're a corporation so profits are their priority. That said I don't agree with them. KeSPA isn't selling StarCraft for people to play, KeSPA is broadcasting high level gameplay for fans to watch. It just so happens there are lots of fans and advertisers are willing to pay them to play ads during said broadcast. As long as they purchased their copies legitimately they should be able to do what they want with their property, insofar as they don't turn around and sell the game itself.

This goes to the heart of the issue of digital property. Corporations want to tightly control it so as to squeeze every nickel and dime possible out of customers. I say fuck 'em, I bought it and I'll do what I damn well please with it short of selling it.
I_Love_Bacon
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5765 Posts
February 21 2010 23:11 GMT
#173
Kespa is looking out for their interest in Korean E-Sports. Blizzard has a much, much, much broader picture to paint. They care about a global e-sports development for their game. If they allow Kespa to do as they please then it will set a bad example for what they're trying to do.... whatever that is. But ignoring Kespa and letting Korea do its thing could in turn lead to other companies/countries possibly trying similar stances.

I imagine Blizzard simply wants to stand firm on the issue so that it goes no further. Ultimately, if SC2 is successful as we all hope it is, then Kespa will be relatively meaningless as the game explodes beyond its simple borders. We focus so much on such a small scene, that it's easy to lose the big picture of millions and millions of possible new players in SC2 to spring up with new players, leagues, events all throughout the world.
" i havent been playin sc2 but i woke up w/ a boner and i really had to pee... and my crisis management and micro was really something to behold. it inspired me to play some games today" -Liquid'Tyler
madsweepslol
Profile Joined February 2010
161 Posts
February 21 2010 23:15 GMT
#174
On February 22 2010 08:11 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
Kespa is looking out for their interest in Korean E-Sports. Blizzard has a much, much, much broader picture to paint. They care about a global e-sports development for their game. If they allow Kespa to do as they please then it will set a bad example for what they're trying to do.... whatever that is. But ignoring Kespa and letting Korea do its thing could in turn lead to other companies/countries possibly trying similar stances.

I imagine Blizzard simply wants to stand firm on the issue so that it goes no further. Ultimately, if SC2 is successful as we all hope it is, then Kespa will be relatively meaningless as the game explodes beyond its simple borders. We focus so much on such a small scene, that it's easy to lose the big picture of millions and millions of possible new players in SC2 to spring up with new players, leagues, events all throughout the world.

Actually, trying to control KeSPA will stifle the SC2 esports scene. Letting peeps do their own things is what would allow leagues to flourish.
I_Love_Bacon
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5765 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-21 23:23:11
February 21 2010 23:22 GMT
#175
On February 22 2010 08:15 madsweepslol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2010 08:11 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
Kespa is looking out for their interest in Korean E-Sports. Blizzard has a much, much, much broader picture to paint. They care about a global e-sports development for their game. If they allow Kespa to do as they please then it will set a bad example for what they're trying to do.... whatever that is. But ignoring Kespa and letting Korea do its thing could in turn lead to other companies/countries possibly trying similar stances.

I imagine Blizzard simply wants to stand firm on the issue so that it goes no further. Ultimately, if SC2 is successful as we all hope it is, then Kespa will be relatively meaningless as the game explodes beyond its simple borders. We focus so much on such a small scene, that it's easy to lose the big picture of millions and millions of possible new players in SC2 to spring up with new players, leagues, events all throughout the world.

Actually, trying to control KeSPA will stifle the SC2 esports scene. Letting peeps do their own things is what would allow leagues to flourish.


That's irrational fear on your part at this point. Blizzard isn't attempting to control, run, or operate Kespa.... yet. Right now this almost pure speculation and rumors on all of our parts, but if Blizzard wanted to do everything on the e-sports scene themselves; we'd know about it by now.
" i havent been playin sc2 but i woke up w/ a boner and i really had to pee... and my crisis management and micro was really something to behold. it inspired me to play some games today" -Liquid'Tyler
madsweepslol
Profile Joined February 2010
161 Posts
February 21 2010 23:31 GMT
#176
You're right, I should have phrased that better. Blizzard isn't trying to control KeSPA per se, but trying to nickel and dime everything still isn't good for SCII esports.
lepape
Profile Joined November 2005
Canada557 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-21 23:39:34
February 21 2010 23:34 GMT
#177
There's so many fanboys on Blizzard's side here that would be on Blizzard's side no matter what.

All I can say is, asking royalties for broadcasting a game can only hurt esports more than it can help it. If anyone dreams of ever seeing a north american or an european SC2 proleague on TV, royalties to use the game would just kill any possible attempt to make any profit out of it outside Korea. Hell, I wonder if the whole SC1 proscene would have been possible in Korea if they had to pay royalties right from the start, when the game was young and still not that popular.
deth
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Australia1757 Posts
February 21 2010 23:37 GMT
#178
If we can stream our own SC2 games for free, KesPA should be able to put SC2 up on TV for free, just imo.
Windblade
Profile Joined July 2009
United States161 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-21 23:41:40
February 21 2010 23:38 GMT
#179
Lepape:

You do know that abc/nbc/fox/espn they all pay the NFL, NHL, MLB to broadcast games right? You're argument got debunked

and yeah we can stream it, because we arent charging money or making money off the stream. KeSPA makes money off the broadcast which iis the major difference and argument. They are using a product that they do not own in anyway to make a profit while you just let people watch you play for 0 profit.
Kennigit *
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada19447 Posts
February 21 2010 23:40 GMT
#180
Kespa made tens of millions in profits last year. Do you still think they are just doing this because they are nice guys who like e-sports?
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