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On August 01 2009 15:42 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2009 15:35 baubo wrote:On August 01 2009 15:29 FragKrag wrote:On August 01 2009 15:27 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:On August 01 2009 15:25 FragKrag wrote:
Movie did a stupid rock-esque arbiter strat and got all his arbs emp'd
Iris got raped by a fucking reaver.
I can't really blame EffOrt or SnOw because nobody expected SnOw to win, and EffOrt just got outplayed by what Jaedong did. His strat was actually very good, it was the execution that was horrible. it was terrible. He completely gave away his intentions by building that robo RIGHT by the Nexus. "Oh look, a robo that is unbelievably late, I wonder what is happening". His recall failed, and it was the best recall he could of gotten. He would have had a much better chance if he played more regular or whatnot. ... Do you understand what you're saying? The strategy was PERFECT. That's what makes Hiya's win so unbelievable. By the time Hiya saw the fast arbs, he was already screwed. It was already past the timing when terran could punish such greedy tech play. That's why Hiya kept turtling for his near-maxed army before pushing out. Movie pretty much already had a 2nd main by the time Hiya pushed out. His advantage was ridiculously huge. But his engagement of the terran army was facepalm worthy. And therein lies the problem. When the Protoss have an advantage, you never wait for the Terrans to max out before exploiting it. A Maxed-out Terran army, with appropriate upgrades, is just too powerful. You have to cut that ball down and rely on your faster unit production, and you have to do it the minute you have a maxed-out army. If you let the Terrans make the first move, as Movie did here, you lose.
Easier said than done. This is collesseum after all. Terran can simply turtle til they're maxed. It's protoss's job on that map to construct an army strong enough to do MEANINGFUL damage to that 200/200 death ball and then rebuild faster and with your arbs in tact with more storm to do even more in the next engagement. If you lose the first fight badly you're fighting an almost impossibly steep uphill battle for the remainder of the game.
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United States10774 Posts
On August 01 2009 15:42 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2009 15:35 baubo wrote:On August 01 2009 15:29 FragKrag wrote:On August 01 2009 15:27 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:On August 01 2009 15:25 FragKrag wrote:
Movie did a stupid rock-esque arbiter strat and got all his arbs emp'd
Iris got raped by a fucking reaver.
I can't really blame EffOrt or SnOw because nobody expected SnOw to win, and EffOrt just got outplayed by what Jaedong did. His strat was actually very good, it was the execution that was horrible. it was terrible. He completely gave away his intentions by building that robo RIGHT by the Nexus. "Oh look, a robo that is unbelievably late, I wonder what is happening". His recall failed, and it was the best recall he could of gotten. He would have had a much better chance if he played more regular or whatnot. ... Do you understand what you're saying? The strategy was PERFECT. That's what makes Hiya's win so unbelievable. By the time Hiya saw the fast arbs, he was already screwed. It was already past the timing when terran could punish such greedy tech play. That's why Hiya kept turtling for his near-maxed army before pushing out. Movie pretty much already had a 2nd main by the time Hiya pushed out. His advantage was ridiculously huge. But his engagement of the terran army was facepalm worthy. And therein lies the problem. When the Protoss have an advantage, you never wait for the Terrans to max out before exploiting it. A Maxed-out Terran army, with appropriate upgrades, is just too powerful. You have to cut that ball down and rely on your faster unit production, and you have to do it the minute you have a maxed-out army. If you let the Terrans make the first move, as Movie did here, you lose.
Not true. Sometimes Terran sets up such a good defense that you can't do anything against his three base turtle. As Protoss, if you can;t damage him in any way, you should just expand and get mass gateways up. That's what Movie did, since he wanted to play it safe and not take any unnecessary risks. Engage him with a lot of stasis and storms; abuse the mass gateway count afterwards. It was his below-average Arbiter usage/control that cost him the most. His play in general was good, but he didn't execute correctly at one of the most critical moments.
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Wait, are you guys saying that if one player plays good and wins, the other one played bad? WOW.
Go Oz~ Almost can taste the victory, but tomorrow's gonna be even harder to pull through. Super ace and Effort vs Jaedong redux seems likely.
All Oz players beyond Lomo stepped up their game and caught CJ with their pants down.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
nOOOooooooooooOoooooooooooooooooooo......... T___________________T
DAY 2
CJ
wILL PREVAIL
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On August 01 2009 15:56 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2009 15:42 NicolBolas wrote:On August 01 2009 15:35 baubo wrote:On August 01 2009 15:29 FragKrag wrote:On August 01 2009 15:27 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:On August 01 2009 15:25 FragKrag wrote:
Movie did a stupid rock-esque arbiter strat and got all his arbs emp'd
Iris got raped by a fucking reaver.
I can't really blame EffOrt or SnOw because nobody expected SnOw to win, and EffOrt just got outplayed by what Jaedong did. His strat was actually very good, it was the execution that was horrible. it was terrible. He completely gave away his intentions by building that robo RIGHT by the Nexus. "Oh look, a robo that is unbelievably late, I wonder what is happening". His recall failed, and it was the best recall he could of gotten. He would have had a much better chance if he played more regular or whatnot. ... Do you understand what you're saying? The strategy was PERFECT. That's what makes Hiya's win so unbelievable. By the time Hiya saw the fast arbs, he was already screwed. It was already past the timing when terran could punish such greedy tech play. That's why Hiya kept turtling for his near-maxed army before pushing out. Movie pretty much already had a 2nd main by the time Hiya pushed out. His advantage was ridiculously huge. But his engagement of the terran army was facepalm worthy. And therein lies the problem. When the Protoss have an advantage, you never wait for the Terrans to max out before exploiting it. A Maxed-out Terran army, with appropriate upgrades, is just too powerful. You have to cut that ball down and rely on your faster unit production, and you have to do it the minute you have a maxed-out army. If you let the Terrans make the first move, as Movie did here, you lose. Not true. Sometimes Terran sets up such a good defense that you can't do anything against his three base turtle. As Protoss, if you can;t damage him in any way, you should just expand and get mass gateways up. That's what Movie did, since he wanted to play it safe and not take any unnecessary risks. Engage him with a lot of stasis and storms; abuse the mass gateway count afterwards. It was his below-average Arbiter usage/control that cost him the most. His play in general was good, but he didn't execute correctly at one of the most critical moments.
Well put good sir Kinda funny we said the same thing in different words at the exact same time.
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On August 01 2009 15:48 hiro protagonist wrote:
As a Oz fan I am happy,
BUUUUUUUUUUUUT, there is one more day and we have seen what kind of comebacks CJ can make. Its gonna be tense tomorrow.
Right now, it's like the period after PerfectMan got his win. It's 3-1, we've got Jaedong for the Ace match. Just go out, do your best, and don't worry if you lose; Jaedong's got your back.
Remember, the worst case scenario is that CJ wins the next set and it goes to a Super Ace. That is, the worst that can happen is Jaedong vs. anyone on CJ.
That's a pretty good worst-case. Unfortunately, I liquibetted CJ. I assumed they'd win both sets, thus preventing the Super Ace.
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On August 01 2009 15:56 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Wait, are you guys saying that if one player plays good and wins, the other one played bad? WOW.
Go Oz~ Almost can taste the victory, but tomorrow's gonna be even harder to pull through. Super ace and Effort vs Jaedong redux seems likely.
All Oz players beyond Lomo stepped up their game and caught CJ with their pants down.
I'm not saying that, no.
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HOLY
FUCK
JUST CHECKED BACK.
AND I'M
SO
FUCKING
FUCKING
FUCKING
HAPPYYYYYYYYYYYY
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
SHIT XD
YEAH JD
YEAH HWASEUNG
JIEWOA;JFIEO;WAJFIOE;WJAIFO;EWJ YEAHHHH
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I am saying that for movie's case, though probably not for Iris.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
i just saw the pic of JD killer motherfuckin eyes. did effort get raped hard? 
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On August 01 2009 15:58 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2009 15:48 hiro protagonist wrote:
As a Oz fan I am happy,
BUUUUUUUUUUUUT, there is one more day and we have seen what kind of comebacks CJ can make. Its gonna be tense tomorrow. Right now, it's like the period after PerfectMan got his win. It's 3-1, we've got Jaedong for the Ace match. Just go out, do your best, and don't worry if you lose; Jaedong's got your back. Remember, the worst case scenario is that CJ wins the next set and it goes to a Super Ace. That is, the worst that can happen is Jaedong vs. anyone on CJ. That's a pretty good worst-case. Unfortunately, I liquibetted CJ. I assumed they'd win both sets, thus preventing the Super Ace.
Same, the matches just seemed weighted towards cj, but Oz came with some very well prepared and executed builds. Smart smart coach.
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On August 01 2009 15:56 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2009 15:42 NicolBolas wrote:On August 01 2009 15:35 baubo wrote:On August 01 2009 15:29 FragKrag wrote:On August 01 2009 15:27 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:On August 01 2009 15:25 FragKrag wrote:
Movie did a stupid rock-esque arbiter strat and got all his arbs emp'd
Iris got raped by a fucking reaver.
I can't really blame EffOrt or SnOw because nobody expected SnOw to win, and EffOrt just got outplayed by what Jaedong did. His strat was actually very good, it was the execution that was horrible. it was terrible. He completely gave away his intentions by building that robo RIGHT by the Nexus. "Oh look, a robo that is unbelievably late, I wonder what is happening". His recall failed, and it was the best recall he could of gotten. He would have had a much better chance if he played more regular or whatnot. ... Do you understand what you're saying? The strategy was PERFECT. That's what makes Hiya's win so unbelievable. By the time Hiya saw the fast arbs, he was already screwed. It was already past the timing when terran could punish such greedy tech play. That's why Hiya kept turtling for his near-maxed army before pushing out. Movie pretty much already had a 2nd main by the time Hiya pushed out. His advantage was ridiculously huge. But his engagement of the terran army was facepalm worthy. And therein lies the problem. When the Protoss have an advantage, you never wait for the Terrans to max out before exploiting it. A Maxed-out Terran army, with appropriate upgrades, is just too powerful. You have to cut that ball down and rely on your faster unit production, and you have to do it the minute you have a maxed-out army. If you let the Terrans make the first move, as Movie did here, you lose. Not true. Sometimes Terran sets up such a good defense that you can't do anything against his three base turtle. As Protoss, if you can;t damage him in any way, you should just expand and get mass gateways up. That's what Movie did, since he wanted to play it safe and not take any unnecessary risks. Engage him with a lot of stasis and storms; abuse the mass gateway count afterwards. It was his below-average Arbiter usage/control that cost him the most. His play in general was good, but he didn't execute correctly at one of the most critical moments.
That only reinforces how bad an idea that kind of fast Arbiter build is. You're skipping a crucial step: Reaver harass. If you can't slow the Terrans down before they've erected said defense, all you have to rely on is trying to hurt their ball of doom.
It's never a good idea to willingly put yourself in a situation where your options are "have everything work out exactly according to plan" or "get steamrolled". That's why Reaver harass is so important, and that's why I'm not particularly fond of this fast Arbiter build.
Yes, if Movie hadn't gotten everything EMP'd in one shot, he'd have been much better off. But having a fall-back plan if the worst should happen would have been a nice idea.
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On August 01 2009 16:00 alffla wrote:i just saw the pic of JD killer motherfuckin eyes. did effort get raped hard?
You haven't seen the game yet? Let's just say that Effort was... sore after the match 
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Yes thats right..Jaedong gave him a tetanus shot(just learned how to actually spell that correctly..thanks google)
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Canada3402 Posts
meh
tmrw CJ will just bounce back
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United States10774 Posts
On August 01 2009 16:04 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2009 15:56 OneOther wrote:On August 01 2009 15:42 NicolBolas wrote:On August 01 2009 15:35 baubo wrote:On August 01 2009 15:29 FragKrag wrote:On August 01 2009 15:27 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:On August 01 2009 15:25 FragKrag wrote:
Movie did a stupid rock-esque arbiter strat and got all his arbs emp'd
Iris got raped by a fucking reaver.
I can't really blame EffOrt or SnOw because nobody expected SnOw to win, and EffOrt just got outplayed by what Jaedong did. His strat was actually very good, it was the execution that was horrible. it was terrible. He completely gave away his intentions by building that robo RIGHT by the Nexus. "Oh look, a robo that is unbelievably late, I wonder what is happening". His recall failed, and it was the best recall he could of gotten. He would have had a much better chance if he played more regular or whatnot. ... Do you understand what you're saying? The strategy was PERFECT. That's what makes Hiya's win so unbelievable. By the time Hiya saw the fast arbs, he was already screwed. It was already past the timing when terran could punish such greedy tech play. That's why Hiya kept turtling for his near-maxed army before pushing out. Movie pretty much already had a 2nd main by the time Hiya pushed out. His advantage was ridiculously huge. But his engagement of the terran army was facepalm worthy. And therein lies the problem. When the Protoss have an advantage, you never wait for the Terrans to max out before exploiting it. A Maxed-out Terran army, with appropriate upgrades, is just too powerful. You have to cut that ball down and rely on your faster unit production, and you have to do it the minute you have a maxed-out army. If you let the Terrans make the first move, as Movie did here, you lose. Not true. Sometimes Terran sets up such a good defense that you can't do anything against his three base turtle. As Protoss, if you can;t damage him in any way, you should just expand and get mass gateways up. That's what Movie did, since he wanted to play it safe and not take any unnecessary risks. Engage him with a lot of stasis and storms; abuse the mass gateway count afterwards. It was his below-average Arbiter usage/control that cost him the most. His play in general was good, but he didn't execute correctly at one of the most critical moments. That only reinforces how bad an idea that kind of fast Arbiter build is. You're skipping a crucial step: Reaver harass. If you can't slow the Terrans down before they've erected said defense, all you have to rely on is trying to hurt their ball of doom. It's never a good idea to willingly put yourself in a situation where your options are "have everything work out exactly according to plan" or "get steamrolled". That's why Reaver harass is so important, and that's why I'm not particularly fond of this fast Arbiter build. Yes, if Movie hadn't gotten everything EMP'd in one shot, he'd have been much better off. But having a fall-back plan if the worst should happen would have been a nice idea.
Fast Arbiter is a very good build on Colosseum and other maps that Terran like to turtle on. There's no necessity to slow down the Terran before three bases, because you are putting yourself in a good position for late game anyway. You simply need to deny the fourth base. No matter what happens, it's extremely difficult to stop the Terran from taking three bases. Without Arbiters, it's just not possible to kill the well-upgraded Terran ball. Arbiters put the pressure on the Terran to move out before they reach a critical number. Having many of them sets you up for a safe victory in the late game as long as you don't make gigantic mistakes. Movie did and he lost.
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On August 01 2009 16:08 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Yes thats right..Jaedong gave him a tetanus shot(just learned how to actually spell that correctly..thanks google )
JD put Effort in the TEZUKA ZONE
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CJ has played pretty badly all playoffs ;_;
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is awesome32277 Posts
On August 01 2009 16:11 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2009 16:04 NicolBolas wrote:On August 01 2009 15:56 OneOther wrote:On August 01 2009 15:42 NicolBolas wrote:On August 01 2009 15:35 baubo wrote:On August 01 2009 15:29 FragKrag wrote:On August 01 2009 15:27 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:On August 01 2009 15:25 FragKrag wrote:
Movie did a stupid rock-esque arbiter strat and got all his arbs emp'd
Iris got raped by a fucking reaver.
I can't really blame EffOrt or SnOw because nobody expected SnOw to win, and EffOrt just got outplayed by what Jaedong did. His strat was actually very good, it was the execution that was horrible. it was terrible. He completely gave away his intentions by building that robo RIGHT by the Nexus. "Oh look, a robo that is unbelievably late, I wonder what is happening". His recall failed, and it was the best recall he could of gotten. He would have had a much better chance if he played more regular or whatnot. ... Do you understand what you're saying? The strategy was PERFECT. That's what makes Hiya's win so unbelievable. By the time Hiya saw the fast arbs, he was already screwed. It was already past the timing when terran could punish such greedy tech play. That's why Hiya kept turtling for his near-maxed army before pushing out. Movie pretty much already had a 2nd main by the time Hiya pushed out. His advantage was ridiculously huge. But his engagement of the terran army was facepalm worthy. And therein lies the problem. When the Protoss have an advantage, you never wait for the Terrans to max out before exploiting it. A Maxed-out Terran army, with appropriate upgrades, is just too powerful. You have to cut that ball down and rely on your faster unit production, and you have to do it the minute you have a maxed-out army. If you let the Terrans make the first move, as Movie did here, you lose. Not true. Sometimes Terran sets up such a good defense that you can't do anything against his three base turtle. As Protoss, if you can;t damage him in any way, you should just expand and get mass gateways up. That's what Movie did, since he wanted to play it safe and not take any unnecessary risks. Engage him with a lot of stasis and storms; abuse the mass gateway count afterwards. It was his below-average Arbiter usage/control that cost him the most. His play in general was good, but he didn't execute correctly at one of the most critical moments. That only reinforces how bad an idea that kind of fast Arbiter build is. You're skipping a crucial step: Reaver harass. If you can't slow the Terrans down before they've erected said defense, all you have to rely on is trying to hurt their ball of doom. It's never a good idea to willingly put yourself in a situation where your options are "have everything work out exactly according to plan" or "get steamrolled". That's why Reaver harass is so important, and that's why I'm not particularly fond of this fast Arbiter build. Yes, if Movie hadn't gotten everything EMP'd in one shot, he'd have been much better off. But having a fall-back plan if the worst should happen would have been a nice idea. Fast Arbiter is a very good build on Colosseum and other maps that Terran like to turtle on. There's no necessity to slow down the Terran before three bases, because you are putting yourself in a good position for late game anyway. You simply need to deny the fourth base. No matter what happens, it's extremely difficult to stop the Terran from taking three bases. Without Arbiters, it's just not possible to kill the well-upgraded Terran ball. They set you up for a safe victory in the late game as long as you don't make gigantic mistakes like Movie's.
I still dont understand why he didnt 14 nexus... it would lead to a richer economy to build up arbiters, specially if your recall fails.
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That was beautiful. Didn't see the first two matches, since it was very early in the morning for me, but I'll watch them once they get commented onYT I guess...
 HiyA wasn't particularly entertaining, felt like a loss at first.  PerfectMan on the other hand... wow. He was *on fire*. Complete joker up Oz' sleeve. BackHo didn't really deliver a convincing blow, got a little too overconfident for my taste, but he won... so.. all's well that ends well. I'm looking forward to tomorrow's set, whatever happens, it'll probably be very entertaining. 
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EPT
