On January 01 2009 04:48 StRyKeR wrote: I'm not sure if some of you have never played Zerg, but it is NOT easy scourging vessels, even if they are alone. It's not as easy as just "catching vessels off-guard" -- you need to produce them at the right time and have them hotkeyed correctly so that WHEN the opportunity presents itself you can seal the deal.
If you watch the game, you'll see that Jaedong catches vessels that were RELATIVELY well-protected. In most cases, the vessels were JUST ahead of the rest of his army. If you think about it, because Vessels are faster than marines and medics, it's UNAVOIDABLE that vessels and marines have a tag-relationship, with vessels inching forward, waits for marines to catch up, and so on and so on. The window of time in which the Vessel is slightly separated from his army is VERY small, and it requires a lot of thinking ahead, producing the right number of scourges (scourges don't come out instantly ).
Some moments seemed miraculously lucky though, but what is luck? Luck = opportunity meets preparation. I try to snipe vessels like that all the time and I fail. Badly.
Also, Hwasin didn't have enough forces to hit 5 o'clock early on, although later, there was a time when he had marine group going down there, I'm not sure why he didn't attack. He might have seen the Nydus.
God, Jaedong has so much finesse.
it feels nice that a zerg with a rank to back him up can post. i dont even know if the retard hacpee has a respectable rank to back up his stupid words.
ty for saying how 2 base terran is not disadvantage against 3 baser zerg. ty.
Best 2 hatch muta I've ever seen, he played out his cards perfectly. Then best scourge using ever, some perfect flanks, and fuckin ensnare and parasite. Omg.
On December 31 2008 16:39 TranceStorm wrote: Hwasin got outplayed the entire game
On December 31 2008 16:39 Nitan wrote:
On December 31 2008 16:38 Cambium wrote: so close hwasin almost had it
There's always a chance that Jaedong may have a heart attack or a stroke.
Aside from that, Hwasin was screwed.
I don't know wtf you guys are talking about.
I'd say it was dead even the entire game. It was tipped towards Hwasin when the guardians did absolutely no damage and got ass-raped.
Following that, JD did not have his fourth for the longest time. Hwasin had a huge advantage when it was 3:3.
It was literally one scan away (and pulling the vessels towards the right direction) from winning.
You guys are so retarded...
It was a good game yes, and yes that scan might've saved him the game, but Hwasin was just outclassed most of the game. Look at the way he was losing vessels. He lost like, 6 vessels in ONE shot. He wasn't playing in top condition tonight, but he wasn't absolute shit either.
On December 31 2008 16:42 Kuja900 wrote: I dont see where all these hwasin compliments are coming from he played aweful that game he lost so many vessels, i didnt see even one defiler get irad, he didnt scan when lurks at his 3rd the list goes on hwasin played like shit and got raped like a bitch, i hate jaedong there is no fan-boyism for either side in this post hwasin played like crap and deserved to lose even if STX is my team.
There were two or three defilers irradiated iirc. I know solid on one, think I saw two.
How do you not realize that jaedong has been hailed the scourge king multiple times and his scourge usage was extraordinary this game whenever hwasin was under pressure from lurkers + swarm + ensnare + cracklings jaedong would scourge vessels, he did not lose a single vessel when there were less than 3 other things going on
I never said that Jaedong wasn't amazing with scourge. Honestly, Jaedong is one of the best of all time in my eyes. However, when you are hailed as The Red Sniper, I'd expect you to handle the vessels a little better, even under pressure.
Honestly, to anyone who doesn't think it was an awesome game, rewatch it. It was back and forth game the entire time, and a combination of Jaedong's great play with Hwasin's mistakes led to the outcome. But seriously, quit the "Hwasin sucked balls" shit. He played a great game.
Not once in this thread did I say hwasin was playing bad, I've been defending him the whole time.
On January 01 2009 05:37 freelander wrote: omg godlike zvt performance, best I've ever seen.
Best 2 hatch muta I've ever seen, he played out his cards perfectly. Then best scourge using ever, some perfect flanks, and fuckin ensnare and parasite. Omg.
On January 01 2009 00:09 khersai wrote: hwasin played like shit, awful vessel control and loss of his 3rd to a few lurkers having 2 bunkers around was just /facepalm
Ok watch the vod again Hwasin did not have bad vessel control he had to choose between his forces or his vessels because 1 of the 2 were going to die, and the reason why he had no scans at his 3rd was because of Jaedong's vessel sniping he had to use all of the energy fighting jaedong's lurkers.
On January 01 2009 05:37 freelander wrote: omg godlike zvt performance, best I've ever seen.
Best 2 hatch muta I've ever seen, he played out his cards perfectly. Then best scourge using ever, some perfect flanks, and fuckin ensnare and parasite. Omg.
It was a 3 Hatch Muta. >.>
he ment when jaedong goes for 2hatch muta hes teh best at it. at least thats wht i think he means
On January 01 2009 05:37 freelander wrote: omg godlike zvt performance, best I've ever seen.
Best 2 hatch muta I've ever seen, he played out his cards perfectly. Then best scourge using ever, some perfect flanks, and fuckin ensnare and parasite. Omg.
It was a 3 Hatch Muta. >.>
he ment when jaedong goes for 2hatch muta hes teh best at it. at least thats wht i think he means
Nope, he mistook 3h muta for 2h muta. Or his English is really bad, which I don't think is the case judging from the rest of the post.
or maybe I am a retard and I really thought it was 2 hatch in the beginning lol
It seems I didn't pay attention at the beginning of the game, he stood on his ramp with a drone and the observer just showed that the scv wants to get in, and when it got it I only saw one hatch, pool, gas, and lair is upgrading, I thought it was 2 hatch. I just somehow didnt see the third lol.
On January 01 2009 06:24 freelander wrote: or maybe I am a retard and I really thought it was 2 hatch in the beginning lol
It seems I didn't pay attention at the beginning of the game, he stood on his ramp with a drone and the observer just showed that the scv wants to get in, and when it got it I only saw one hatch, pool, gas, and lair is upgrading, I thought it was 2 hatch. I just somehow didnt see the third lol.
On December 31 2008 21:48 monstar123 wrote: Kal has July to practice. Jaedong has BackHo to practice . Here is for you result
Bisu has Hyuk and s2 to practice.
Conclusion?
Hyuk and s2 > Jaedong in practice.
Guys they don't only practice against their team-mates progamers practice with people from all teams.
i was under the impression for proleague they usually only practice vs their team, since its every week and all good pros have to practice for it, and they are directly or indirectly competing against each other through matches and standings
but for big individual series (OSL or MSL etc) they sort of branch out more to non-teammates?
I really liked JD's latest build. It was pretty much standard ZvT except it looked like he sacced a few lurkers for two queens. But his choice to tech to guardians almost cost him the game imo. If he had just went for defilers/more lurkers, he would've destroyed that second terran ball with swarms/ensnare. Hwasin's m&m micro was great at times (especially at the very end when he retook the middle with a single ctrl group of m&ms) but I agree with the others who say that his vessel micro was sloppy at times.
I think more than half of those vessel snipes though were unavoidable (i.e. it was either move m&m's away from swarmed lurker spines or target fire the scourges). The only real fail vessel control by Hwasin was that six vessel kersplosion rape. It looked like he was caught off guard there. Did anyone catch if one of those vessels was parasited?
Anyways, aside from a few seemingly odd choices by Jaedong, that was some real beautiful ZvT. I really hope to see this build on a map other than Sin Chupung-Ryeong.
On December 31 2008 21:48 monstar123 wrote: Kal has July to practice. Jaedong has BackHo to practice . Here is for you result
Bisu has Hyuk and s2 to practice.
Conclusion?
Hyuk and s2 > Jaedong in practice.
Guys they don't only practice against their team-mates progamers practice with people from all teams.
i was under the impression for proleague they usually only practice vs their team, since its every week and all good pros have to practice for it, and they are directly or indirectly competing against each other through matches and standings
but for big individual series (OSL or MSL etc) they sort of branch out more to non-teammates?
or am i totally off
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not but I am near certain that most players would practice outside of their own team as well because it is more beneficial for everybody.
On December 31 2008 21:48 monstar123 wrote: Kal has July to practice. Jaedong has BackHo to practice . Here is for you result
Bisu has Hyuk and s2 to practice.
Conclusion?
Hyuk and s2 > Jaedong in practice.
Guys they don't only practice against their team-mates progamers practice with people from all teams.
i was under the impression for proleague they usually only practice vs their team, since its every week and all good pros have to practice for it, and they are directly or indirectly competing against each other through matches and standings
but for big individual series (OSL or MSL etc) they sort of branch out more to non-teammates?
or am i totally off
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not but I am near certain that most players would practice outside of their own team as well because it is more beneficial for everybody.
i'm being serious, i'm wondering if they mostly practice inside their teams for proleague and only practice outside their teams for individual leagues. i'm not sure if this is the case but it makes sense.
i mean if i were the coaches i would not want my players helping other teams succeed in proleague, that's just bad for your own team. you are competing against them for playoff spots, you don't want other teams to do well at the expense of your own players time even if they aren't directly playing vs your team.
On December 31 2008 21:48 monstar123 wrote: Kal has July to practice. Jaedong has BackHo to practice . Here is for you result
Bisu has Hyuk and s2 to practice.
Conclusion?
Hyuk and s2 > Jaedong in practice.
Guys they don't only practice against their team-mates progamers practice with people from all teams.
i was under the impression for proleague they usually only practice vs their team, since its every week and all good pros have to practice for it, and they are directly or indirectly competing against each other through matches and standings
but for big individual series (OSL or MSL etc) they sort of branch out more to non-teammates?
or am i totally off
Uh yeah this is the impression that I have been getting as well. In interviews the players often talk about which players from another team helped them practice for their individual leagues, especially if it for the finals. Also when there are matches between the same team's players in individual leagues then they get help from the other teams.
On December 31 2008 21:48 monstar123 wrote: Kal has July to practice. Jaedong has BackHo to practice . Here is for you result
Bisu has Hyuk and s2 to practice.
Conclusion?
Hyuk and s2 > Jaedong in practice.
Guys they don't only practice against their team-mates progamers practice with people from all teams.
i was under the impression for proleague they usually only practice vs their team, since its every week and all good pros have to practice for it, and they are directly or indirectly competing against each other through matches and standings
but for big individual series (OSL or MSL etc) they sort of branch out more to non-teammates?
or am i totally off
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not but I am near certain that most players would practice outside of their own team as well because it is more beneficial for everybody.
i'm being serious, i'm wondering if they mostly practice inside their teams for proleague and only practice outside their teams for individual leagues. i'm not sure if this is the case but it makes sense.
i mean if i were the coaches i would not want my players helping other teams succeed in proleague, that's just bad for your own team. you are competing against them for playoff spots, you don't want other teams to do well at the expense of your own players time even if they aren't directly playing vs your team.
But it would explain why the zergs on SKT are so bad because their best players are choosing to practice outside of the team so that they can get something out of it.
For example I think Jaedong mass practicing against backho would have about as much benefit as him playing against the computer just as much.
On December 31 2008 21:48 monstar123 wrote: Kal has July to practice. Jaedong has BackHo to practice . Here is for you result
Bisu has Hyuk and s2 to practice.
Conclusion?
Hyuk and s2 > Jaedong in practice.
Guys they don't only practice against their team-mates progamers practice with people from all teams.
i was under the impression for proleague they usually only practice vs their team, since its every week and all good pros have to practice for it, and they are directly or indirectly competing against each other through matches and standings
but for big individual series (OSL or MSL etc) they sort of branch out more to non-teammates?
or am i totally off
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not but I am near certain that most players would practice outside of their own team as well because it is more beneficial for everybody.
i'm being serious, i'm wondering if they mostly practice inside their teams for proleague and only practice outside their teams for individual leagues. i'm not sure if this is the case but it makes sense.
i mean if i were the coaches i would not want my players helping other teams succeed in proleague, that's just bad for your own team. you are competing against them for playoff spots, you don't want other teams to do well at the expense of your own players time even if they aren't directly playing vs your team.
But it would explain why the zergs on SKT are so bad because their best players are choosing to practice outside of the team so that they can get something out of it.
For example I think Jaedong mass practicing against backho would have about as much benefit as him playing against the computer just as much.
hehe i think their zergs are bad because their zergs are bad. they have bisu but i suspect practicing against bisu (playing like bisu) doesn't help you that much, his style is so distinct from other PvZ that if they practice with him, they probably just make him play more "standard" PvZ in which case he's only marginally better than a regular "good" PvZ player.
i think you're overestimating the difference in practice between someone like backho and someone like bisu. the player who is practicing just needs someone to play standard or try out different strategies to test the build he is doing for a very specific match on a specific map. i doubt they are playing a lot of long, standard games but rather its very narrowly tailored to the situation that week, to test timing and scouting of everything they can anticipate, etc. in this sort of environment it makes much more sense that they don't need a top flight player to practice against (that and the team-interest considerations, you don't want to improve standings of other teams for playoff spots and waste your own precious practice time).
in a bo5 series practice though, its different. not as specific or focused, and no team obligations. that might explain why they go out of their own team to find players to practice against. the more i think about it the more it makes sense that they wouldn't practice outside their team for proleague. it just doesn't make sense from a self-interest standpoint, not to mention the time constraints for the good players they would ask (who have their own PL matches to train for).
On December 31 2008 21:48 monstar123 wrote: Kal has July to practice. Jaedong has BackHo to practice . Here is for you result
Bisu has Hyuk and s2 to practice.
Conclusion?
Hyuk and s2 > Jaedong in practice.
Guys they don't only practice against their team-mates progamers practice with people from all teams.
i was under the impression for proleague they usually only practice vs their team, since its every week and all good pros have to practice for it, and they are directly or indirectly competing against each other through matches and standings
but for big individual series (OSL or MSL etc) they sort of branch out more to non-teammates?
or am i totally off
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not but I am near certain that most players would practice outside of their own team as well because it is more beneficial for everybody.
i'm being serious, i'm wondering if they mostly practice inside their teams for proleague and only practice outside their teams for individual leagues. i'm not sure if this is the case but it makes sense.
i mean if i were the coaches i would not want my players helping other teams succeed in proleague, that's just bad for your own team. you are competing against them for playoff spots, you don't want other teams to do well at the expense of your own players time even if they aren't directly playing vs your team.
But it would explain why the zergs on SKT are so bad because their best players are choosing to practice outside of the team so that they can get something out of it.
For example I think Jaedong mass practicing against backho would have about as much benefit as him playing against the computer just as much.
I suspect it was practicing against Anytime that helped Jaedong the most. Though it is an interesting question, who do the best players in a MU practice against? Like Leta TvT, Jaedong ZvZ, Best, well Best+Bisu can practice together.
On December 31 2008 21:48 monstar123 wrote: Kal has July to practice. Jaedong has BackHo to practice . Here is for you result
Bisu has Hyuk and s2 to practice.
Conclusion?
Hyuk and s2 > Jaedong in practice.
Guys they don't only practice against their team-mates progamers practice with people from all teams.
i was under the impression for proleague they usually only practice vs their team, since its every week and all good pros have to practice for it, and they are directly or indirectly competing against each other through matches and standings
but for big individual series (OSL or MSL etc) they sort of branch out more to non-teammates?
or am i totally off
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not but I am near certain that most players would practice outside of their own team as well because it is more beneficial for everybody.
i'm being serious, i'm wondering if they mostly practice inside their teams for proleague and only practice outside their teams for individual leagues. i'm not sure if this is the case but it makes sense.
i mean if i were the coaches i would not want my players helping other teams succeed in proleague, that's just bad for your own team. you are competing against them for playoff spots, you don't want other teams to do well at the expense of your own players time even if they aren't directly playing vs your team.
But it would explain why the zergs on SKT are so bad because their best players are choosing to practice outside of the team so that they can get something out of it.
For example I think Jaedong mass practicing against backho would have about as much benefit as him playing against the computer just as much.
I suspect it was practicing against Anytime that helped Jaedong the most. Though it is an interesting question, who do the best players in a MU practice against? Like Leta TvT, Jaedong ZvZ, Best, well Best+Bisu can practice together.
When it was Stork vs Best, i think just about every single Protoss outside of SKT helped Stork practice. Stork thanked like 10 of them in his interview.
From the post Stork vs Best interview with Stork:
I want to say special thanks to my teammates yoOn[s.g], Brave, JangBi, Endless, and TT. KTF Violet, Lecaf BackHo, CJ Jjonga, Free and Guemchi from Wstars, and MBC Jaehoon all gave me wonderful support. I also wanna thank CJ Much and WeMade Pure for providing me with tips on builds and strategies. eStro Tester and STX Kal helped me out as well. I am thankful for all these players who made practice that much easier.
look at that list haha just about everyone but Bisu
EPT
).
