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[PL] Lecaf vs STX - Page 50

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Djabanete
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States2786 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-31 08:21:35
December 31 2008 08:18 GMT
#981
Wow, I was on tenterhooks just from reading the LR. Jaedong and Hwasin have a pretty interesting little rivalry going on --- JD seems to win when it counts, but Hwasin usually gives him a run for his money. Can't wait to watch the VOD. Go Tyrant!

edit: Oh and I love how nobody can seem to agree on whether it was a brilliant game or a terrible game. This thread is a good read.

On December 31 2008 16:53 TheAfterEffect wrote:
You're a moron.

Thanks for contributing!
May the BeSt man win.
hacpee
Profile Joined November 2007
United States752 Posts
December 31 2008 08:19 GMT
#982
On December 31 2008 17:11 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 31 2008 17:07 hacpee wrote:
On December 31 2008 17:00 QibingZero wrote:
On December 31 2008 16:52 hacpee wrote:
The game wasn't even at all. Hwasin carelessly lost too many science vessels, and his attempts at harrassing the 3rd were pathetic. Heck, he built so many tanks, yet he couldn't spare one to siege the 3rd's cliff. No drops in the main, no harrasses on the natural, he only took out a few stray hatches that jaedong didn't care for.


Okay, I'm going to make one last attempt at this.

First of all, if you think Hwasin could lose simply due to the amount of vessels Jaedong sniped, go watch Jaedong's most recent game vs Sea and count how many vessels Sea loses.

Now, Hwasin was already behind and had little chance at taking out Jaedong's third once that nydus came up. What Hwasin did do, however, was stop Jaedong's attempts at a fourth for as long as possible, causing the game to continue to be groups of smaller fights rather than huge ones wherein his units would be too clumped up to avoid ensnare + swarm absolutely owning him.

It was Hwasin's forcing the game into those small skirmishes, plus his attempt to take advantage of the fact that a lot of the expansions on the map would be hard to control for Jaedong. Where that plan fell apart was in his failure to place a turret at or to scan his third base when the bunker was under attack. That, combined with the fact he failed to eventually stop Jaedong's expanding to a fourth base, and the mass vessel snipe, put him too far behind to come back.

There you go. Can we put it to rest now and admit it was an amazing game?


Are you serious? He started failing once his first vessel/tank push went for the natural instead of the 3rd. Hwasin constantly sent useless groups of mm/firebats to the 3rd to die for no reason. The only thing he did at all was prevent 2 expos from forming. Thats it. Plus, hwasin's own 3rd was horribly late. He was at an eco disadvantage the whole game,and by the time hwasin actually took his 3rd, he let jaedong mass enough troops to effortlessly take it. Jaedong almost botched it though when he didn't bring a defiler with him.

Okay,
1) Both fantasy and he went for the natural instead of the third, hmmm, maybe it's better that way?
2) 2 base terran vs 3 base zerg is not an 'eco disadvantage'
3) Jaedong went for Hwasin's third after he killed his army, though the no scanning made a difference, but it wouldn't have mattered because Hwasin still didn't have an army when his 3rd was under attack.

Hwasin played well, he made a few mistakes that cost him the game. But JD played really well at crucial times to keep himself in it long enough for Hwasin to slip up a bit.


1) who the fuck cares about fantasy. Hwasin got too greedy and wanted to end it right there. Big mistake.
2) It is a disadvantage for terran, or else you'd be seeing every other terran let the zerg get their 3rd gas without a fight.
3) Hwasin did have troops. They weren't positioned there. Jaedong was careless though, should have sent a defiler. He almost blew it by not sending one.
StRyKeR
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States1739 Posts
December 31 2008 08:37 GMT
#983
On December 31 2008 17:19 hacpee wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 31 2008 17:11 Avidkeystamper wrote:
On December 31 2008 17:07 hacpee wrote:
On December 31 2008 17:00 QibingZero wrote:
On December 31 2008 16:52 hacpee wrote:
The game wasn't even at all. Hwasin carelessly lost too many science vessels, and his attempts at harrassing the 3rd were pathetic. Heck, he built so many tanks, yet he couldn't spare one to siege the 3rd's cliff. No drops in the main, no harrasses on the natural, he only took out a few stray hatches that jaedong didn't care for.


Okay, I'm going to make one last attempt at this.

First of all, if you think Hwasin could lose simply due to the amount of vessels Jaedong sniped, go watch Jaedong's most recent game vs Sea and count how many vessels Sea loses.

Now, Hwasin was already behind and had little chance at taking out Jaedong's third once that nydus came up. What Hwasin did do, however, was stop Jaedong's attempts at a fourth for as long as possible, causing the game to continue to be groups of smaller fights rather than huge ones wherein his units would be too clumped up to avoid ensnare + swarm absolutely owning him.

It was Hwasin's forcing the game into those small skirmishes, plus his attempt to take advantage of the fact that a lot of the expansions on the map would be hard to control for Jaedong. Where that plan fell apart was in his failure to place a turret at or to scan his third base when the bunker was under attack. That, combined with the fact he failed to eventually stop Jaedong's expanding to a fourth base, and the mass vessel snipe, put him too far behind to come back.

There you go. Can we put it to rest now and admit it was an amazing game?


Are you serious? He started failing once his first vessel/tank push went for the natural instead of the 3rd. Hwasin constantly sent useless groups of mm/firebats to the 3rd to die for no reason. The only thing he did at all was prevent 2 expos from forming. Thats it. Plus, hwasin's own 3rd was horribly late. He was at an eco disadvantage the whole game,and by the time hwasin actually took his 3rd, he let jaedong mass enough troops to effortlessly take it. Jaedong almost botched it though when he didn't bring a defiler with him.

Okay,
1) Both fantasy and he went for the natural instead of the third, hmmm, maybe it's better that way?
2) 2 base terran vs 3 base zerg is not an 'eco disadvantage'
3) Jaedong went for Hwasin's third after he killed his army, though the no scanning made a difference, but it wouldn't have mattered because Hwasin still didn't have an army when his 3rd was under attack.

Hwasin played well, he made a few mistakes that cost him the game. But JD played really well at crucial times to keep himself in it long enough for Hwasin to slip up a bit.


1) who the fuck cares about fantasy. Hwasin got too greedy and wanted to end it right there. Big mistake.
2) It is a disadvantage for terran, or else you'd be seeing every other terran let the zerg get their 3rd gas without a fight.
3) Hwasin did have troops. They weren't positioned there. Jaedong was careless though, should have sent a defiler. He almost blew it by not sending one.


On your 2) --- it could be argued that zerg is getting more resources by having a third and therefore they're at an eco advantage, but from a "game winning" advantage, Zerg desperately needs it. Yes, Zerg might be at an "eco" advantage, but that's not the point.
Can you recall any game in the past few months where Zerg beats Terran 2 base vs 2 base?

The fact is zerg needs more gas to counter terran's tank + marine + med.
2 gases just won't do it.
2 base zerg vs. 2 base terran, zerg loses
2 base zerg vs. 2 base protoss, zerg loses
Ars longa, vita brevis, principia aeturna.
vx70GTOJudgexv
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States3161 Posts
December 31 2008 09:02 GMT
#984
On December 31 2008 16:48 d(O.o)a wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 31 2008 16:45 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:
On December 31 2008 16:41 Cambium wrote:
On December 31 2008 16:39 TranceStorm wrote:
Hwasin got outplayed the entire game

On December 31 2008 16:39 Nitan wrote:
On December 31 2008 16:38 Cambium wrote:
so close hwasin almost had it


There's always a chance that Jaedong may have a heart attack or a stroke.

Aside from that, Hwasin was screwed.


I don't know wtf you guys are talking about.

I'd say it was dead even the entire game. It was tipped towards Hwasin when the guardians did absolutely no damage and got ass-raped.

Following that, JD did not have his fourth for the longest time. Hwasin had a huge advantage when it was 3:3.

It was literally one scan away (and pulling the vessels towards the right direction) from winning.

You guys are so retarded...


It was a good game yes, and yes that scan might've saved him the game, but Hwasin was just outclassed most of the game. Look at the way he was losing vessels. He lost like, 6 vessels in ONE shot. He wasn't playing in top condition tonight, but he wasn't absolute shit either.

On December 31 2008 16:42 Kuja900 wrote:
I dont see where all these hwasin compliments are coming from he played aweful that game he lost so many vessels, i didnt see even one defiler get irad, he didnt scan when lurks at his 3rd the list goes on hwasin played like shit and got raped like a bitch, i hate jaedong there is no fan-boyism for either side in this post hwasin played like crap and deserved to lose even if STX is my team.


There were two or three defilers irradiated iirc. I know solid on one, think I saw two.



How do you not realize that jaedong has been hailed the scourge king multiple times and his scourge usage was extraordinary this game whenever hwasin was under pressure from lurkers + swarm + ensnare + cracklings jaedong would scourge vessels, he did not lose a single vessel when there were less than 3 other things going on


I never said that Jaedong wasn't amazing with scourge. Honestly, Jaedong is one of the best of all time in my eyes. However, when you are hailed as The Red Sniper, I'd expect you to handle the vessels a little better, even under pressure.

Honestly, to anyone who doesn't think it was an awesome game, rewatch it. It was back and forth game the entire time, and a combination of Jaedong's great play with Hwasin's mistakes led to the outcome. But seriously, quit the "Hwasin sucked balls" shit. He played a great game.
(-_-) BW for ever. #1 Iris fan.
village_idiot
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
2436 Posts
December 31 2008 09:09 GMT
#985
I thought JD was finished when he forgot that defiler mound and went for the guardians instead.

The guardians didn't do much and left JD behind IMO.
Plutonium
Profile Joined November 2007
United States2217 Posts
December 31 2008 09:17 GMT
#986
Jaedong is now Christmas Zerg.
Rostam
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States2552 Posts
December 31 2008 09:17 GMT
#987
On December 31 2008 18:09 village_idiot wrote:
I thought JD was finished when he forgot that defiler mound and went for the guardians instead.

The guardians didn't do much and left JD behind IMO.


Somehow I doubt he forgot it..
BW forever || Thall
village_idiot
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
2436 Posts
December 31 2008 09:26 GMT
#988
On December 31 2008 18:17 Rostam wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 31 2008 18:09 village_idiot wrote:
I thought JD was finished when he forgot that defiler mound and went for the guardians instead.

The guardians didn't do much and left JD behind IMO.


Somehow I doubt he forgot it..

Yeah, but I was scared he forgot it because he didn't try to plant it again after the drone failed to morph. Only a while later did he make the mound.
puLs.ReADy
Profile Joined November 2005
Bulgaria1301 Posts
December 31 2008 11:25 GMT
#989
again Jaedong losing to Kal wtf ?
Warrior Madness
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Canada3791 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-31 11:47:29
December 31 2008 11:40 GMT
#990
I haven't seen the VODs yet but it sounds like JD made a few questionable decisions in both games. JD funneling his army into storms/reavers and opting for a lurker heavy army twice against Kal's goon heavy army. Map couldn't have helped JD's mass hydras either. It seems like JD just has trouble with a turtle/macro oriented toss player and handling the late game army. Versus Hwasin it sounds like Hwasin made more mistakes. He had great mnm control but wasn't very good with his vessels, didn't drop, threw away small clumps of units carelessly and didn't attack JD's third when JD wasted all his guardians and while Hwasin had the army advantage. I'm still disappointed JD lost to Kal though. (Not that there's any shame in losing to Kal's PvZ).
The Past: Yellow, Julyzerg, Chojja, Savior, GGplay -- The Present: Luxury, Jae- The Future: -Dong, maGma, Zero, Effort, Hoejja, hyvaa, by.hero, calm, Action ---> SC2 (Ret?? Kolll Idra!! SEN, Cool, ZergBong, Leenock)
Lebesgue
Profile Joined October 2008
4542 Posts
December 31 2008 12:44 GMT
#991
On December 31 2008 20:40 Warrior Madness wrote:
I haven't seen the VODs yet but it sounds like JD made a few questionable decisions in both games. JD funneling his army into storms/reavers and opting for a lurker heavy army twice against Kal's goon heavy army. Map couldn't have helped JD's mass hydras either. It seems like JD just has trouble with a turtle/macro oriented toss player and handling the late game army. Versus Hwasin it sounds like Hwasin made more mistakes. He had great mnm control but wasn't very good with his vessels, didn't drop, threw away small clumps of units carelessly and didn't attack JD's third when JD wasted all his guardians and while Hwasin had the army advantage. I'm still disappointed JD lost to Kal though. (Not that there's any shame in losing to Kal's PvZ).


I'm also waiting for vods to see exactly what happened. I read the LR and I agree with your conclusion but it is hard to tell without seeing games.

And yet again Jaedong fanboys are crying that a MU is imba after Jaedong loses. It is becoming tiring. It is suprising that from all top progamers it happens only after Jaedong loses. Seriously, there is no shame in losing to Kal in ZvP.
Azrael1111
Profile Joined July 2008
United States550 Posts
December 31 2008 12:47 GMT
#992
On December 31 2008 21:44 Lebesgue wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 31 2008 20:40 Warrior Madness wrote:
I haven't seen the VODs yet but it sounds like JD made a few questionable decisions in both games. JD funneling his army into storms/reavers and opting for a lurker heavy army twice against Kal's goon heavy army. Map couldn't have helped JD's mass hydras either. It seems like JD just has trouble with a turtle/macro oriented toss player and handling the late game army. Versus Hwasin it sounds like Hwasin made more mistakes. He had great mnm control but wasn't very good with his vessels, didn't drop, threw away small clumps of units carelessly and didn't attack JD's third when JD wasted all his guardians and while Hwasin had the army advantage. I'm still disappointed JD lost to Kal though. (Not that there's any shame in losing to Kal's PvZ).


I'm also waiting for vods to see exactly what happened. I read the LR and I agree with your conclusion but it is hard to tell without seeing games.

And yet again Jaedong fanboys are crying that a MU is imba after Jaedong loses. It is becoming tiring. It is suprising that from all top progamers it happens only after Jaedong loses. Seriously, there is no shame in losing to Kal in ZvP.


Na it makes tons of sense that it would happen after a Jaedong loss, because no other pro gamer represents their race more than him. He is the obvious master of zerg (exempting JZ's zvp).
monstar123
Profile Joined December 2008
United States516 Posts
December 31 2008 12:48 GMT
#993
(P)Kal has (Z)July to practice.
(Z)Jaedong has (P)BackHo to practice .
Here is for you result
Jaeden
Profile Joined September 2008
Romania1489 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-31 13:06:22
December 31 2008 13:06 GMT
#994
On December 31 2008 20:40 Warrior Madness wrote:
I haven't seen the VODs yet but it sounds like JD made a few questionable decisions in both games. JD funneling his army into storms/reavers and opting for a lurker heavy army twice against Kal's goon heavy army. Map couldn't have helped JD's mass hydras either. It seems like JD just has trouble with a turtle/macro oriented toss player and handling the late game army. Versus Hwasin it sounds like Hwasin made more mistakes. He had great mnm control but wasn't very good with his vessels, didn't drop, threw away small clumps of units carelessly and didn't attack JD's third when JD wasted all his guardians and while Hwasin had the army advantage. I'm still disappointed JD lost to Kal though. (Not that there's any shame in losing to Kal's PvZ).

Hwasin didn`t made really big mistakes..he lost quite a few vessels, but like somebody before posted, it`s pretty hard to do 53298523 things at once. Hwasin played a great game overall. He`s micro & even macro were great . The lost to kal still counts though, and Jd lost, nothin` to bitch about, ZvP is ZvP, balanced or imbalanced it`s still jd`s fault for losin`.
On December 31 2008 21:48 monstar123 wrote:
(P)Kal has (Z)July to practice.
(Z)Jaedong has (P)BackHo to practice .
Here is for you result

lol

also:
On December 31 2008 18:17 Plutonium wrote:
Jaedong is now Christmas Zerg.


indeed!
Boxer: " Lee Jae Dong is the best player. He`s all about the micro; he`s the player which has the most amazing control"
Warrior Madness
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Canada3791 Posts
December 31 2008 13:19 GMT
#995
On December 31 2008 21:44 Lebesgue wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 31 2008 20:40 Warrior Madness wrote:
I haven't seen the VODs yet but it sounds like JD made a few questionable decisions in both games. JD funneling his army into storms/reavers and opting for a lurker heavy army twice against Kal's goon heavy army. Map couldn't have helped JD's mass hydras either. It seems like JD just has trouble with a turtle/macro oriented toss player and handling the late game army. Versus Hwasin it sounds like Hwasin made more mistakes. He had great mnm control but wasn't very good with his vessels, didn't drop, threw away small clumps of units carelessly and didn't attack JD's third when JD wasted all his guardians and while Hwasin had the army advantage. I'm still disappointed JD lost to Kal though. (Not that there's any shame in losing to Kal's PvZ).


I'm also waiting for vods to see exactly what happened. I read the LR and I agree with your conclusion but it is hard to tell without seeing games.

And yet again Jaedong fanboys are crying that a MU is imba after Jaedong loses. It is becoming tiring. It is suprising that from all top progamers it happens only after Jaedong loses. Seriously, there is no shame in losing to Kal in ZvP.


It's up on youtube now courtesy of jon747!!
The Past: Yellow, Julyzerg, Chojja, Savior, GGplay -- The Present: Luxury, Jae- The Future: -Dong, maGma, Zero, Effort, Hoejja, hyvaa, by.hero, calm, Action ---> SC2 (Ret?? Kolll Idra!! SEN, Cool, ZergBong, Leenock)
baubo
Profile Joined September 2008
China3370 Posts
December 31 2008 13:36 GMT
#996
On December 31 2008 21:48 monstar123 wrote:
(P)Kal has (Z)July to practice.
(Z)Jaedong has (P)BackHo to practice .
Here is for you result


Bisu has Hyuk and s2 to practice.

Conclusion?

Hyuk and s2 > Jaedong in practice.
Meh
Jaeden
Profile Joined September 2008
Romania1489 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-31 13:39:31
December 31 2008 13:39 GMT
#997
On December 31 2008 22:36 baubo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 31 2008 21:48 monstar123 wrote:
(P)Kal has (Z)July to practice.
(Z)Jaedong has (P)BackHo to practice .
Here is for you result


Bisu has Hyuk and s2 to practice.

Conclusion?

Hyuk and s2 > Jaedong in practice.

may be, jd stated that he has no skill, if u belive that, then it may be
Boxer: " Lee Jae Dong is the best player. He`s all about the micro; he`s the player which has the most amazing control"
monstar123
Profile Joined December 2008
United States516 Posts
December 31 2008 13:50 GMT
#998
On December 31 2008 22:36 baubo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 31 2008 21:48 monstar123 wrote:
(P)Kal has (Z)July to practice.
(Z)Jaedong has (P)BackHo to practice .
Here is for you result


Bisu has Hyuk and s2 to practice.

Conclusion?

Hyuk and s2 > Jaedong in practice.


Hmmm,mb. But why JD is killing everyone ??? Because his mentall strengh is 1000x compared to S2 and Hyuk.He has confidence and other factors.Only mechanics are not enough to beat somebody.Savior , July , JD ...All of them have 7-10 factors to win ,while Hyuk and S2 and other has 1-2.
But Kal's mental strength is not bad too. And he has July to practice.Both of them are mindfuckers.

Warrior Madness
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Canada3791 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-31 14:21:48
December 31 2008 14:17 GMT
#999
I just finished watching the JD vs Kal game and I thought both played pretty well but Kal was flat out better. He was in control from the start of the game. I thought JD lost a lot of scourges needlessly early though (what's up with him sending 2 at a time?). At first I thought JD simply could not keep up with Kal's incredible macro but not so!

It's just that Kal's micro was just incredible. His unit composition, impeccable. So JD amasses 1/1 hydras, attacks up Kal's ramp and Kal does a great job using his zealots to block the ramp/hydras so his storms/reavers could kill them off. Kal loses like 4 zealots and Jaedong loses most of his hydras. Jaedong amasses more hydras and heads for Kal's nat. The small choke point and large number of zealots in the front create perfect conditions for storms/scarabs. Again, Jaedong loses A LOT of his hydras but Kal loses minimal forces again (Like what a few zealots for 3.5 control groups of hydras so far?). Kal has a decisive army advantage and therefore map control.

One thing JD does a great job of doing is burrowing and picking off HTs with mutas. He must've picked off at least 6 with that one group. Talk about cost effective. Imo it would've made the critical difference if Jaedong had thrown in a few lurkers into his unit mix from the start (when he attacks up Kal's ramp).
The Past: Yellow, Julyzerg, Chojja, Savior, GGplay -- The Present: Luxury, Jae- The Future: -Dong, maGma, Zero, Effort, Hoejja, hyvaa, by.hero, calm, Action ---> SC2 (Ret?? Kolll Idra!! SEN, Cool, ZergBong, Leenock)
monstar123
Profile Joined December 2008
United States516 Posts
December 31 2008 14:23 GMT
#1000
i saw the VOD too.IMO Kal was much better in that game.No mistakes, perfect micro + macro.He won battle without storms cause HTs were sniped.Cant imagne what would happen if that templar could stay alive !
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