On April 20 2024 00:37 Postaljester_ wrote: The reason Protoss is the worst faction is also the reason they are the most fun to play and watch. Their units suck and are overpriced causing them to rely on specialists units. The specialists: reaver, Templar, arbiter cannot be massed and require each one to be individually controlled.
There will never be a consensus but I am interested in what others think the brood war unit tier lists would look like.
Is funny to call this protoss unit suck when some of them are capable of killing 45 units from zerg. Nah for real comedy.
lmao
zerg literally has by far the best spellcaster in the game (defiler) and on top of that two of the best and most versatile units in the game (zergling and hydralisk). Not even mentioning mutalisk, which can end the game on a whim if controlled correctly.
If you can't manage to win vs protoss as zerg, it's a skill issue. Nothing more.
On April 20 2024 00:37 Postaljester_ wrote: The reason Protoss is the worst faction is also the reason they are the most fun to play and watch. Their units suck and are overpriced causing them to rely on specialists units. The specialists: reaver, Templar, arbiter cannot be massed and require each one to be individually controlled.
There will never be a consensus but I am interested in what others think the brood war unit tier lists would look like.
Is funny to call this protoss unit suck when some of them are capable of killing 45 units from zerg. Nah for real comedy.
He did mention the reaver as a specialist unit though.
On April 20 2024 00:37 Postaljester_ wrote: The reason Protoss is the worst faction is also the reason they are the most fun to play and watch. Their units suck and are overpriced causing them to rely on specialists units. The specialists: reaver, Templar, arbiter cannot be massed and require each one to be individually controlled.
There will never be a consensus but I am interested in what others think the brood war unit tier lists would look like.
Is funny to call this protoss unit suck when some of them are capable of killing 45 units from zerg. Nah for real comedy.
He did mention the reaver as a specialist unit though.
Yeah but apart from Dragoon mobility. ( in some maps btw ) i cant really think of any unit that suck. Holyshit even the Scout is amazing if you upgrade that thing to the maximum. The air power of that thing is actually insane. ( thx god is expensive )
Let that sink plague does nothing vs archons. Like i legit understand terran pain sometimes with plague. But toss complaining about plague is comedy too.
Im not going to be arguing balanced here. In my book the game is balanced. But this season maps are terrible to play in. We will see what happen next season since there is going to be a zerg vs zerg final..
The only player who dominates in all 3 matchups is Flash. Aside from him, Terran doesn't have a player who dominates both TvP and TvZ. And Zerg doesn't have a player who dominates both ZvP and ZvT.
Soulkey? I can hardly find anyone else who has better ZvP or ZvT win rates in bo games.
You mean 2 matchups? Since Soulkey is famous for being weak in ZvZ but I think recently it has changed. Weird that his ZvZ during Kespa was 60% while now it's 49%.
Not sure where we can find win rates for BO alone. But Kespa Soulkey reads 65% vP and 54% vT. Meanwhile modern Soulkey since 2021 is at 61% vP and 57% vT. So more or less stays true to the norms of Zerg: strong in ZvP and weaker in ZvT.
Edit: if you take only offline tournaments (ASL + KSL) it's closer at 62.5% vP and 59.5% vT although the data was cut off after ASL16. After this season his ZvP win rate has increased a little bit.
Players now are honestly better than Kespa days. Mechically but specifically strategically, knowledge and experience. Things that were passable back then now are not. Bunch of players who didnt hit their skillcaps yet back in Kespa, and a bunch who did. Soulkey specifically plays strategically the smartest, which means the more time passes the better his playstyle becomes because everyone has capped their mechanics at this point. Only way to really get better at that point is better understanding of maps, situations, and strategy. In ZvZ is largely raw mechanics. You can see it in SKs play in tvz and pvz where he seems to avoid reallly intense and precise micro situations.
This argument again. Or did you mean to say "not mechanically"? Because mechanically basically everyone is worse than during Kespa. Knowledge and strategy has evolved a lot though but if you put a Flash or Jaedong from their Kespa peaks into the current era with the knowledge from the current era, they would likely have a win rate of >90 % vs everyone today.
I think what he meant, and also what I think, is:
(1) present mechanics <<< past mechanics (obviously, they were younger back then)
(2) however, present mechanics + present knowledge > past mechanics + past knowledge
(3) but of course, present mechanics + present knowledge <<< past mechanics + present knowledge (the benefit of time travelling)
As (3) doesn't exist, hence (2) means players now are better than Kespa players.
Are you really sure about this one? (1) present mechanics <<< past mechanics (obviously, they were younger back then)
I understand the age argument and I agree it is noticeable for some players, but at the same time others like Snow, Hero, Queen, Royal and even Mini have at least similar mechanics. I also understand the argument of having people 100% dedicated to broodwar in a team house but back then there were also a lot more people and not everyone had perfect play anyways, lots of guys were clearly worse mechanically than pro streamers today.
From what I can recall and get from late Kespa era I would say present mechanics are only slightly worse overall than present mechanics.
I honestly think one of the reasons progamers are doing well mechanic side post kespa era is the introduction of in game timer. That just help so much to keep up timing wise with everything. Even drops etc. So even if your reflexes are getting worse or reaction time. Timer still help a ton to keep up in that aspect. Another reason is the custom hotkeys introduced in remastered. Im pretty sure the game these days is more easy than before when it comes to click your buttons. You can make your life easier in so many aspects. Micro Macro got easier for sure. But yeah Kespa era was the prime of mechanics for those guys. Their mind was also 100% put into starcraft. not distractions. The new era of SC is way more chill. I dont even know if their hands can keep up these days with 40 games x day like in the past. I know Effort actually quit ASL and competing for that reason. And he now plays in Proleagues with B tier players Like mong leta sinz YSC ggaemo etc.
Btw jinjin translated a video between Flash and Nada talking about mechanics.
On April 19 2024 19:47 M3t4PhYzX wrote: as for the other thing, btw
it sucks ass and is lame as fuck that they got rid of the 3rd place match a couple of seasons ago, because more often than not it was actually much better and more exciting than the grand final
bummer
I think the appeal 3rd place matches is very dependent on who's playing and the significance of the stakes (which in this case is definitely not high, even if there was a difference in the prize money). Personally, I'd rather watch the ZvZ final then a 3rd place match.
I would be more interested in some sort of out of season material to maintain at least some sort of ASL brand momentum. Even if it's lower profile, the lengthy breaks between each season are so abrupt; going from 2 months of high activity to 0.
The only player who dominates in all 3 matchups is Flash. Aside from him, Terran doesn't have a player who dominates both TvP and TvZ. And Zerg doesn't have a player who dominates both ZvP and ZvT.
Soulkey? I can hardly find anyone else who has better ZvP or ZvT win rates in bo games.
You mean 2 matchups? Since Soulkey is famous for being weak in ZvZ but I think recently it has changed. Weird that his ZvZ during Kespa was 60% while now it's 49%.
Not sure where we can find win rates for BO alone. But Kespa Soulkey reads 65% vP and 54% vT. Meanwhile modern Soulkey since 2021 is at 61% vP and 57% vT. So more or less stays true to the norms of Zerg: strong in ZvP and weaker in ZvT.
Edit: if you take only offline tournaments (ASL + KSL) it's closer at 62.5% vP and 59.5% vT although the data was cut off after ASL16. After this season his ZvP win rate has increased a little bit.
Players now are honestly better than Kespa days. Mechically but specifically strategically, knowledge and experience. Things that were passable back then now are not. Bunch of players who didnt hit their skillcaps yet back in Kespa, and a bunch who did. Soulkey specifically plays strategically the smartest, which means the more time passes the better his playstyle becomes because everyone has capped their mechanics at this point. Only way to really get better at that point is better understanding of maps, situations, and strategy. In ZvZ is largely raw mechanics. You can see it in SKs play in tvz and pvz where he seems to avoid reallly intense and precise micro situations.
This argument again. Or did you mean to say "not mechanically"? Because mechanically basically everyone is worse than during Kespa. Knowledge and strategy has evolved a lot though but if you put a Flash or Jaedong from their Kespa peaks into the current era with the knowledge from the current era, they would likely have a win rate of >90 % vs everyone today.
I think what he meant, and also what I think, is:
(1) present mechanics <<< past mechanics (obviously, they were younger back then)
(2) however, present mechanics + present knowledge > past mechanics + past knowledge
(3) but of course, present mechanics + present knowledge <<< past mechanics + present knowledge (the benefit of time travelling)
As (3) doesn't exist, hence (2) means players now are better than Kespa players.
Are you really sure about this one? (1) present mechanics <<< past mechanics (obviously, they were younger back then)
I understand the age argument and I agree it is noticeable for some players, but at the same time others like Snow, Hero, Queen, Royal and even Mini have at least similar mechanics. I also understand the argument of having people 100% dedicated to broodwar in a team house but back then there were also a lot more people and not everyone had perfect play anyways, lots of guys were clearly worse mechanically than pro streamers today.
From what I can recall and get from late Kespa era I would say present mechanics are only slightly worse overall than present mechanics.
I honestly think one of the reasons progamers are doing well mechanic side post kespa era is the introduction of in game timer. That just help so much to keep up timing wise with everything. Even drops etc. So even if your reflexes are getting worse or reaction time. Timer still help a ton to keep up in that aspect. Another reason is the custom hotkeys introduced in remastered. Im pretty sure the game these days is more easy than before when it comes to click your buttons. You can make your life easier in so many aspects. Micro Macro got easier for sure. But yeah Kespa era was the prime of mechanics for those guys. Their mind was also 100% put into starcraft. not distractions. The new era of SC is way more chill. I dont even know if their hands can keep up these days with 40 games x day like in the past. I know Effort actually quit ASL and competing for that reason. And he now plays in Proleagues with B tier players Like mong leta sinz YSC ggaemo etc. Btw jinjin translated a video between Flash and Nada talking about mechanics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CWEYKFG7Y8
100% this.
I think more so the introduction of the timer, but definitely custom hotkeys as well. This never(?) gets highlighted but has had such a big impact on the game.
players are not old enough yet for their mechanics to be worse than kespa era. Its like guitar virtuosos who maintain their skill and often improve on it after age 30-50. But the younger you learn the higher ones potential. For example in guitar there are new generation players with absolutely otherworldly mechanical guitar play. Think of Tim Henson, Manuel Gardner, Jakub Zytecki, or the generation before that with Tosin Abasi. Abasi is already in 41 and is still considered one of the five best mechanical guitar players of the present day if not the best.
Age specifically below 40 has much much less of an impact on mechanical skill and ability. Players keep developing better techniques, better finger placements, become much more accustomed as mechanical practice compounds over the years and keep brainstorming ways to improve mechanics. Research has also shown that reaction time does not get that much worse.
Another few examples are gun/shooting masters of old age still being considered fastest and most accurate marksmen in the world. I simply do not buy the argument players are mechanically worse because they are either in their late 20s or 30s because we have so many examples from other fields that show otherwise.
The one thing that does make players worse is the lack of proper wrist and finger care to prevent conditions such as carpal tunnel. If affected players had always taken proper care of that they would still be capable of putting up the same if not better mechanics. Not all players however have developed carpal tunnel or similar conditions.
Note: there are some players with worsw mechanics because they did not play enough to keep them up. think of Sea, Guemchi, Terror, Iris, Pusan, Therock etc.
On April 20 2024 00:37 Postaljester_ wrote: The reason Protoss is the worst faction is also the reason they are the most fun to play and watch. Their units suck and are overpriced causing them to rely on specialists units. The specialists: reaver, Templar, arbiter cannot be massed and require each one to be individually controlled.
There will never be a consensus but I am interested in what others think the brood war unit tier lists would look like.
Is funny to call this protoss unit suck when some of them are capable of killing 45 units from zerg. Nah for real comedy.
He did mention the reaver as a specialist unit though.
Yeah but apart from Dragoon mobility. ( in some maps btw ) i cant really think of any unit that suck. Holyshit even the Scout is amazing if you upgrade that thing to the maximum. The air power of that thing is actually insane. ( thx god is expensive )
Let that sink plague does nothing vs archons. Like i legit understand terran pain sometimes with plague. But toss complaining about plague is comedy too.
Im not going to be arguing balanced here. In my book the game is balanced. But this season maps are terrible to play in. We will see what happen next season since there is going to be a zerg vs zerg final..
Plague does so much more though. Demolishes buildings, invalidates high HP units, even reveals cloaked units. All of this is really good against P. You know that man, you don't need my F rank to spread wisdom on the topic.
On April 20 2024 00:37 Postaljester_ wrote: The reason Protoss is the worst faction is also the reason they are the most fun to play and watch. Their units suck and are overpriced causing them to rely on specialists units. The specialists: reaver, Templar, arbiter cannot be massed and require each one to be individually controlled.
There will never be a consensus but I am interested in what others think the brood war unit tier lists would look like.
Is funny to call this protoss unit suck when some of them are capable of killing 45 units from zerg. Nah for real comedy.
He did mention the reaver as a specialist unit though.
Yeah but apart from Dragoon mobility. ( in some maps btw ) i cant really think of any unit that suck. Holyshit even the Scout is amazing if you upgrade that thing to the maximum. The air power of that thing is actually insane. ( thx god is expensive )
Let that sink plague does nothing vs archons. Like i legit understand terran pain sometimes with plague. But toss complaining about plague is comedy too.
Im not going to be arguing balanced here. In my book the game is balanced. But this season maps are terrible to play in. We will see what happen next season since there is going to be a zerg vs zerg final..
Plague does so much more though. Demolishes buildings, invalidates high HP units, even reveals cloaked units. All of this is really good against P. You know that man, you don't need my F rank to spread wisdom on the topic.
I have a hard time believing do you even play zerg. Defiler is a tier 3 unit. Just the struggle to get to that point in a good position is a real hustle. Lets say you got there. Each time u will try to use that defiler it will almost never have energy cuz u are so busy keeping up with production and defending or attacking that u dont even have time to consume. Lets say do you consume finally. U will make an attack but do you need to keep up with production defending etc. that when u look back to your army the defiler is gone by 1 storm. Or it got intercepted mid way by random toss units. But ok lets play the game defiler is outside the toss defensive position. U finally plagued the canons the zealots. the dream right ? u send all your army and all of sudden there is 4 reavers and 4 hightemplars defending. and u just loss all your army.
yeah defiler is good. But is not the sacred grail that people make it seems to be.
On April 20 2024 00:37 Postaljester_ wrote: The reason Protoss is the worst faction is also the reason they are the most fun to play and watch. Their units suck and are overpriced causing them to rely on specialists units. The specialists: reaver, Templar, arbiter cannot be massed and require each one to be individually controlled.
There will never be a consensus but I am interested in what others think the brood war unit tier lists would look like.
Is funny to call this protoss unit suck when some of them are capable of killing 45 units from zerg. Nah for real comedy.
He did mention the reaver as a specialist unit though.
Yeah but apart from Dragoon mobility. ( in some maps btw ) i cant really think of any unit that suck. Holyshit even the Scout is amazing if you upgrade that thing to the maximum. The air power of that thing is actually insane. ( thx god is expensive )
Let that sink plague does nothing vs archons. Like i legit understand terran pain sometimes with plague. But toss complaining about plague is comedy too.
Im not going to be arguing balanced here. In my book the game is balanced. But this season maps are terrible to play in. We will see what happen next season since there is going to be a zerg vs zerg final..
Plague does so much more though. Demolishes buildings, invalidates high HP units, even reveals cloaked units. All of this is really good against P. You know that man, you don't need my F rank to spread wisdom on the topic.
I have a hard time believing do you even play zerg. Defiler is a tier 3 unit. Just the struggle to get to that point in a good position is a real hustle. Lets say you got there. Each time u will try to use that defiler it will almost never have energy cuz u are so busy keeping up with production and defending or attacking that u dont even have time to consume. Lets say do you consume finally. U will make an attack but do you need to keep up with production defending etc. that when u look back to your army the defiler is gone by 1 storm. Or it got intercepted mid way by random toss units. But ok lets play the game defiler is outside the toss defensive position. U finally plagued the canons the zealots. the dream right ? u send all your army and all of sudden there is 4 reavers and 4 hightemplars defending. and u just loss all your army.
yeah defiler is good. But is not the sacred grail that people make it seems to be.
Come on, we all know by far the least balanced ability in the game is Consume. Cloud and Plague are good on their own but with Consume you basically get infinity spells on demand. Imagine P Templars or T Vessels with Consume. Protoss would literally be paying 100 minerals for 50 mana everyday of the week.
On April 20 2024 00:37 Postaljester_ wrote: The reason Protoss is the worst faction is also the reason they are the most fun to play and watch. Their units suck and are overpriced causing them to rely on specialists units. The specialists: reaver, Templar, arbiter cannot be massed and require each one to be individually controlled.
There will never be a consensus but I am interested in what others think the brood war unit tier lists would look like.
Is funny to call this protoss unit suck when some of them are capable of killing 45 units from zerg. Nah for real comedy.
He did mention the reaver as a specialist unit though.
Yeah but apart from Dragoon mobility. ( in some maps btw ) i cant really think of any unit that suck. Holyshit even the Scout is amazing if you upgrade that thing to the maximum. The air power of that thing is actually insane. ( thx god is expensive )
Let that sink plague does nothing vs archons. Like i legit understand terran pain sometimes with plague. But toss complaining about plague is comedy too.
Im not going to be arguing balanced here. In my book the game is balanced. But this season maps are terrible to play in. We will see what happen next season since there is going to be a zerg vs zerg final..
Plague does so much more though. Demolishes buildings, invalidates high HP units, even reveals cloaked units. All of this is really good against P. You know that man, you don't need my F rank to spread wisdom on the topic.
I have a hard time believing do you even play zerg. Defiler is a tier 3 unit. Just the struggle to get to that point in a good position is a real hustle. Lets say you got there. Each time u will try to use that defiler it will almost never have energy cuz u are so busy keeping up with production and defending or attacking that u dont even have time to consume. Lets say do you consume finally. U will make an attack but do you need to keep up with production defending etc. that when u look back to your army the defiler is gone by 1 storm. Or it got intercepted mid way by random toss units. But ok lets play the game defiler is outside the toss defensive position. U finally plagued the canons the zealots. the dream right ? u send all your army and all of sudden there is 4 reavers and 4 hightemplars defending. and u just loss all your army.
yeah defiler is good. But is not the sacred grail that people make it seems to be.
Come on, we all know by far the least balanced ability in the game is Consume. Cloud and Plague are good on their own but with Consume you basically get infinity spells on demand. Imagine P Templars or T Vessels with Consume. Protoss would literally be paying 100 minerals for 50 mana everyday of the week.
Honestly, the reason why protoss is OP is that psi storm costs only 75 energy. That's f.cking crazy. A single full-energy HT can easily kill 20+ hydras. 4 HT, 4 reavers and a few zealots and dragoons can hold against anything zerg throws at them. And not only that, your HT ran out of energy? Fuse them into an OP archon that is immune to plague and can deal damage under dark swarm. Your HT are getting sniped by a swarm of mutalisks? Don't worry, just use a maelstrom and a storm and those pesky mutalisks are gone.
I have a hard time believing do you even play zerg. Defiler is a tier 3 unit. Just the struggle to get to that point in a good position is a real hustle. Lets say you got there. Each time u will try to use that defiler it will almost never have energy cuz u are so busy keeping up with production and defending or attacking that u dont even have time to consume. Lets say do you consume finally. U will make an attack but do you need to keep up with production defending etc. that when u look back to your army the defiler is gone by 1 storm. Or it got intercepted mid way by random toss units. But ok lets play the game defiler is outside the toss defensive position. U finally plagued the canons the zealots. the dream right ? u send all your army and all of sudden there is 4 reavers and 4 hightemplars defending. and u just loss all your army.
yeah defiler is good. But is not the sacred grail that people make it seems to be.
That's a skill issue, not a balance issue. Don't plug yourself in when the discussion here is clearly about the highest level of play.
Man Snow's play & control was so good, especially the reavers. But SoulKey played the better meta in the end, there are always such strong ZvP early timing attacks. Loved the game on Blitz.
Eon's rant is weird. What's the point of mocking Snow by showing a game... 14 years ago? Like no other pros have ever lost in a silly way? Saying Scouts are amazing if they're fully upgraded, really? And downplaying plague vs P because it doesn't do damage to Archons (but does damage to literally everything else Protoss has)? Well if it does damage to Archons too, we don't have a matchup anymore.
If it was someone like me or another nobody who said these things, ppl in this thread would be laughing at us and calling noobs.
All i know is that TMNT is a fraud man. He gotta reveal his MMR. If his MMR is 2k+ i will bow down to him for his superior statistics. Until then, zvp is balanced and zergs hate to go standard nowadays. They would rather die than go defilers.
On April 20 2024 00:37 Postaljester_ wrote: The reason Protoss is the worst faction is also the reason they are the most fun to play and watch. Their units suck and are overpriced causing them to rely on specialists units. The specialists: reaver, Templar, arbiter cannot be massed and require each one to be individually controlled.
There will never be a consensus but I am interested in what others think the brood war unit tier lists would look like.
Is funny to call this protoss unit suck when some of them are capable of killing 45 units from zerg. Nah for real comedy.
He did mention the reaver as a specialist unit though.
Yeah but apart from Dragoon mobility. ( in some maps btw ) i cant really think of any unit that suck. Holyshit even the Scout is amazing if you upgrade that thing to the maximum. The air power of that thing is actually insane. ( thx god is expensive )
Let that sink plague does nothing vs archons. Like i legit understand terran pain sometimes with plague. But toss complaining about plague is comedy too.
Im not going to be arguing balanced here. In my book the game is balanced. But this season maps are terrible to play in. We will see what happen next season since there is going to be a zerg vs zerg final..
Plague does so much more though. Demolishes buildings, invalidates high HP units, even reveals cloaked units. All of this is really good against P. You know that man, you don't need my F rank to spread wisdom on the topic.
I have a hard time believing do you even play zerg. Defiler is a tier 3 unit. Just the struggle to get to that point in a good position is a real hustle. Lets say you got there. Each time u will try to use that defiler it will almost never have energy cuz u are so busy keeping up with production and defending or attacking that u dont even have time to consume. Lets say do you consume finally. U will make an attack but do you need to keep up with production defending etc. that when u look back to your army the defiler is gone by 1 storm. Or it got intercepted mid way by random toss units. But ok lets play the game defiler is outside the toss defensive position. U finally plagued the canons the zealots. the dream right ? u send all your army and all of sudden there is 4 reavers and 4 hightemplars defending. and u just loss all your army.
yeah defiler is good. But is not the sacred grail that people make it seems to be.
Bro. First off, Defilers are great. I don't think they're op. I just think they're an absolutely a fantastic unit. But making complaints about losing a defiler because you look away to macro? That's just a weird thing to complain about imo. Protoss loses HTs like this all of the time to hydras, mutas, lings, etc. and this is a threat literally all game. You only have to worry about babysitting defilers in the late game when you actually have them. The amount of babysitting spell-casters or high-value units in ZvP is undebatable. It's way more taxing on Protoss. You have one real spell caster that is used and you don't even have to worry about using it in most of your ZvPs because it only appears in late game. Come on now.
On April 20 2024 08:47 Shinokuki wrote: All i know is that TMNT is a fraud man. He gotta reveal his MMR. If his MMR is 2k+ i will bow down to him for his superior statistics. Until then, zvp is balanced and zergs hate to go standard nowadays. They would rather die than go defilers.
Lol come on what did I say to offend you? What's my argument that you disagree and what's your counter argument?
If we're to go the mmr route then you should ask Stork his, then bow down to his opinion "ZvP is 60/40 Zerg on normal map and when it's 973 it's 70/30".
On April 20 2024 08:47 Shinokuki wrote: All i know is that TMNT is a fraud man. He gotta reveal his MMR. If his MMR is 2k+ i will bow down to him for his superior statistics. Until then, zvp is balanced and zergs hate to go standard nowadays. They would rather die than go defilers.
Lol come on what did I say to offend you? What's my argument that you disagree and what's your counter argument?
If we're to go the mmr route then you should ask Stork his, then bow down to his opinion "ZvP is 60/40 Zerg on normal map and when it's 973 it's 70/30".
No offense meant, as I generally think you've made sensible posts and points (even if I don't agree with all of them), but I can't help but notice that you didn't post your MMR.
To be fair that should apply to Shinokuki - the evergreen shitposter who apparently has his finger on the pulse of the Korean proscene - as well. This spat has gone on long enough where you both should just post your MMRs and then decide whether you want to have a grudgematch or not.
EPT
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/00j3s91.png)
