The only player who dominates in all 3 matchups is Flash. Aside from him, Terran doesn't have a player who dominates both TvP and TvZ. And Zerg doesn't have a player who dominates both ZvP and ZvT.
Soulkey? I can hardly find anyone else who has better ZvP or ZvT win rates in bo games.
You mean 2 matchups? Since Soulkey is famous for being weak in ZvZ but I think recently it has changed. Weird that his ZvZ during Kespa was 60% while now it's 49%.
Not sure where we can find win rates for BO alone. But Kespa Soulkey reads 65% vP and 54% vT. Meanwhile modern Soulkey since 2021 is at 61% vP and 57% vT. So more or less stays true to the norms of Zerg: strong in ZvP and weaker in ZvT.
Edit: if you take only offline tournaments (ASL + KSL) it's closer at 62.5% vP and 59.5% vT although the data was cut off after ASL16. After this season his ZvP win rate has increased a little bit.
TMNT do you think APM is relevant here ? SK is known for have small APM ( < 300 ). Maybe it is a factor in ZvZ idk...
On April 19 2024 13:04 CHEONSOYUN wrote: zvp is probably imbalanced at the early stages of the game due to the information denial zerg can have on protoss.
the potency of the all ins zergs can field before corsair is able to scout in time for a response is strong + protoss has to rely on photon cannons to defend the all ins which zergs regularly abuse by not committing and continuing information denial.
this is at the highest of high levels where zergs are just that good at executing the all ins and also being able to abuse the fog of war.
We saw in the series that snow does a very good job at decyphering it.
If he sees early ling speed, he'll add cannon. Then his sair comes out in time to put 3rd, 4th cannon etc.
He faced 2 hatch hydra bust and 3 hatch hydra bust and both times he survived with flying colors.
He held the ling drop into mutas even after failing a cannon rush.
He only failed to defend the ling lurker on troy which was difficult because snowkey had every bit of advantadge to make snow think that it was going to be 2 hatch muta again. Ro8 vs Mini as well as the game 1 experience.
But overall, snow dealt excellently with the 'lack of scouting' from protoss, he just faltered in the mid and late game. (Not mining gas on 4th on blitz, as well as his approach to the game on citadel was just straight up bad.)
The only player who dominates in all 3 matchups is Flash. Aside from him, Terran doesn't have a player who dominates both TvP and TvZ. And Zerg doesn't have a player who dominates both ZvP and ZvT.
Soulkey? I can hardly find anyone else who has better ZvP or ZvT win rates in bo games.
You mean 2 matchups? Since Soulkey is famous for being weak in ZvZ but I think recently it has changed. Weird that his ZvZ during Kespa was 60% while now it's 49%.
Not sure where we can find win rates for BO alone. But Kespa Soulkey reads 65% vP and 54% vT. Meanwhile modern Soulkey since 2021 is at 61% vP and 57% vT. So more or less stays true to the norms of Zerg: strong in ZvP and weaker in ZvT.
Edit: if you take only offline tournaments (ASL + KSL) it's closer at 62.5% vP and 59.5% vT although the data was cut off after ASL16. After this season his ZvP win rate has increased a little bit.
Players now are honestly better than Kespa days. Mechically but specifically strategically, knowledge and experience. Things that were passable back then now are not. Bunch of players who didnt hit their skillcaps yet back in Kespa, and a bunch who did. Soulkey specifically plays strategically the smartest, which means the more time passes the better his playstyle becomes because everyone has capped their mechanics at this point. Only way to really get better at that point is better understanding of maps, situations, and strategy. In ZvZ is largely raw mechanics. You can see it in SKs play in tvz and pvz where he seems to avoid reallly intense and precise micro situations.
The only player who dominates in all 3 matchups is Flash. Aside from him, Terran doesn't have a player who dominates both TvP and TvZ. And Zerg doesn't have a player who dominates both ZvP and ZvT.
Soulkey? I can hardly find anyone else who has better ZvP or ZvT win rates in bo games.
You mean 2 matchups? Since Soulkey is famous for being weak in ZvZ but I think recently it has changed. Weird that his ZvZ during Kespa was 60% while now it's 49%.
Not sure where we can find win rates for BO alone. But Kespa Soulkey reads 65% vP and 54% vT. Meanwhile modern Soulkey since 2021 is at 61% vP and 57% vT. So more or less stays true to the norms of Zerg: strong in ZvP and weaker in ZvT.
Edit: if you take only offline tournaments (ASL + KSL) it's closer at 62.5% vP and 59.5% vT although the data was cut off after ASL16. After this season his ZvP win rate has increased a little bit.
Players now are honestly better than Kespa days. Mechically but specifically strategically, knowledge and experience. Things that were passable back then now are not. Bunch of players who didnt hit their skillcaps yet back in Kespa, and a bunch who did. Soulkey specifically plays strategically the smartest, which means the more time passes the better his playstyle becomes because everyone has capped their mechanics at this point. Only way to really get better at that point is better understanding of maps, situations, and strategy. In ZvZ is largely raw mechanics. You can see it in SKs play in tvz and pvz where he seems to avoid reallly intense and precise micro situations.
This argument again. Or did you mean to say "not mechanically"? Because mechanically basically everyone is worse than during Kespa. Knowledge and strategy has evolved a lot though but if you put a Flash or Jaedong from their Kespa peaks into the current era with the knowledge from the current era, they would likely have a win rate of >90 % vs everyone today.
On April 18 2024 18:32 TMNT wrote: And Zerg doesn't have a player who dominates both ZvP and ZvT.
Effort
Kespa Effort had 67% vP and 57% vT, so even more lopsided than Bisu and JD. Online modern Effort is the same, 64.5 % vP and 54% vT. ASL+KSL Effort is just weird, 55.5% vP and 70% vT. I assume this is due to low sample size + variations in opponents.
To summary, Effort still falls to typical Zerg category: strong ZvP and weaker ZvT.
The only player who dominates in all 3 matchups is Flash. Aside from him, Terran doesn't have a player who dominates both TvP and TvZ. And Zerg doesn't have a player who dominates both ZvP and ZvT.
Soulkey? I can hardly find anyone else who has better ZvP or ZvT win rates in bo games.
You mean 2 matchups? Since Soulkey is famous for being weak in ZvZ but I think recently it has changed. Weird that his ZvZ during Kespa was 60% while now it's 49%.
Not sure where we can find win rates for BO alone. But Kespa Soulkey reads 65% vP and 54% vT. Meanwhile modern Soulkey since 2021 is at 61% vP and 57% vT. So more or less stays true to the norms of Zerg: strong in ZvP and weaker in ZvT.
Edit: if you take only offline tournaments (ASL + KSL) it's closer at 62.5% vP and 59.5% vT although the data was cut off after ASL16. After this season his ZvP win rate has increased a little bit.
Players now are honestly better than Kespa days. Mechically but specifically strategically, knowledge and experience. Things that were passable back then now are not. Bunch of players who didnt hit their skillcaps yet back in Kespa, and a bunch who did. Soulkey specifically plays strategically the smartest, which means the more time passes the better his playstyle becomes because everyone has capped their mechanics at this point. Only way to really get better at that point is better understanding of maps, situations, and strategy. In ZvZ is largely raw mechanics. You can see it in SKs play in tvz and pvz where he seems to avoid reallly intense and precise micro situations.
This argument again. Or did you mean to say "not mechanically"? Because mechanically basically everyone is worse than during Kespa. Knowledge and strategy has evolved a lot though but if you put a Flash or Jaedong from their Kespa peaks into the current era with the knowledge from the current era, they would likely have a win rate of >90 % vs everyone today.
I think what he meant, and also what I think, is:
(1) present mechanics <<< past mechanics (obviously, they were younger back then)
(2) however, present mechanics + present knowledge > past mechanics + past knowledge
(3) but of course, present mechanics + present knowledge <<< past mechanics + present knowledge (the benefit of time travelling)
As (3) doesn't exist, hence (2) means players now are better than Kespa players.
it sucks ass and is lame as fuck that they got rid of the 3rd place match a couple of seasons ago, because more often than not it was actually much better and more exciting than the grand final
The only player who dominates in all 3 matchups is Flash. Aside from him, Terran doesn't have a player who dominates both TvP and TvZ. And Zerg doesn't have a player who dominates both ZvP and ZvT.
Soulkey? I can hardly find anyone else who has better ZvP or ZvT win rates in bo games.
You mean 2 matchups? Since Soulkey is famous for being weak in ZvZ but I think recently it has changed. Weird that his ZvZ during Kespa was 60% while now it's 49%.
Not sure where we can find win rates for BO alone. But Kespa Soulkey reads 65% vP and 54% vT. Meanwhile modern Soulkey since 2021 is at 61% vP and 57% vT. So more or less stays true to the norms of Zerg: strong in ZvP and weaker in ZvT.
Edit: if you take only offline tournaments (ASL + KSL) it's closer at 62.5% vP and 59.5% vT although the data was cut off after ASL16. After this season his ZvP win rate has increased a little bit.
Players now are honestly better than Kespa days. Mechically but specifically strategically, knowledge and experience. Things that were passable back then now are not. Bunch of players who didnt hit their skillcaps yet back in Kespa, and a bunch who did. Soulkey specifically plays strategically the smartest, which means the more time passes the better his playstyle becomes because everyone has capped their mechanics at this point. Only way to really get better at that point is better understanding of maps, situations, and strategy. In ZvZ is largely raw mechanics. You can see it in SKs play in tvz and pvz where he seems to avoid reallly intense and precise micro situations.
This argument again. Or did you mean to say "not mechanically"? Because mechanically basically everyone is worse than during Kespa. Knowledge and strategy has evolved a lot though but if you put a Flash or Jaedong from their Kespa peaks into the current era with the knowledge from the current era, they would likely have a win rate of >90 % vs everyone today.
I think what he meant, and also what I think, is:
(1) present mechanics <<< past mechanics (obviously, they were younger back then)
(2) however, present mechanics + present knowledge > past mechanics + past knowledge
(3) but of course, present mechanics + present knowledge <<< past mechanics + present knowledge (the benefit of time travelling)
As (3) doesn't exist, hence (2) means players now are better than Kespa players.
Although I have no intention of teasing you, you are the king of statistics but what i found Effort overall statistic: 63,7 vsP 61,5 vsT 58.1 vsZ. it's hard to tell if you're trolling or deliberately trying to twist things. I was surprised to read your argument about zerg allin things, either you don't understand this game or me. about mechanics just look Zero who has become the beast after military as mechanic king then i dont think so past>currently this is just depends to many things again....
The only player who dominates in all 3 matchups is Flash. Aside from him, Terran doesn't have a player who dominates both TvP and TvZ. And Zerg doesn't have a player who dominates both ZvP and ZvT.
Soulkey? I can hardly find anyone else who has better ZvP or ZvT win rates in bo games.
You mean 2 matchups? Since Soulkey is famous for being weak in ZvZ but I think recently it has changed. Weird that his ZvZ during Kespa was 60% while now it's 49%.
Not sure where we can find win rates for BO alone. But Kespa Soulkey reads 65% vP and 54% vT. Meanwhile modern Soulkey since 2021 is at 61% vP and 57% vT. So more or less stays true to the norms of Zerg: strong in ZvP and weaker in ZvT.
Edit: if you take only offline tournaments (ASL + KSL) it's closer at 62.5% vP and 59.5% vT although the data was cut off after ASL16. After this season his ZvP win rate has increased a little bit.
Players now are honestly better than Kespa days. Mechically but specifically strategically, knowledge and experience. Things that were passable back then now are not. Bunch of players who didnt hit their skillcaps yet back in Kespa, and a bunch who did. Soulkey specifically plays strategically the smartest, which means the more time passes the better his playstyle becomes because everyone has capped their mechanics at this point. Only way to really get better at that point is better understanding of maps, situations, and strategy. In ZvZ is largely raw mechanics. You can see it in SKs play in tvz and pvz where he seems to avoid reallly intense and precise micro situations.
This argument again. Or did you mean to say "not mechanically"? Because mechanically basically everyone is worse than during Kespa. Knowledge and strategy has evolved a lot though but if you put a Flash or Jaedong from their Kespa peaks into the current era with the knowledge from the current era, they would likely have a win rate of >90 % vs everyone today.
I think what he meant, and also what I think, is:
(1) present mechanics <<< past mechanics (obviously, they were younger back then)
(2) however, present mechanics + present knowledge > past mechanics + past knowledge
(3) but of course, present mechanics + present knowledge <<< past mechanics + present knowledge (the benefit of time travelling)
As (3) doesn't exist, hence (2) means players now are better than Kespa players.
Yes, this makes sense to me and I fully agree with you. The post I quoted kind of reads like they also think present mechanics > past mechanics because of wordings such as "because everyone has capped mechanics at this point". That's why I responded the way I did.
The only player who dominates in all 3 matchups is Flash. Aside from him, Terran doesn't have a player who dominates both TvP and TvZ. And Zerg doesn't have a player who dominates both ZvP and ZvT.
Soulkey? I can hardly find anyone else who has better ZvP or ZvT win rates in bo games.
You mean 2 matchups? Since Soulkey is famous for being weak in ZvZ but I think recently it has changed. Weird that his ZvZ during Kespa was 60% while now it's 49%.
Not sure where we can find win rates for BO alone. But Kespa Soulkey reads 65% vP and 54% vT. Meanwhile modern Soulkey since 2021 is at 61% vP and 57% vT. So more or less stays true to the norms of Zerg: strong in ZvP and weaker in ZvT.
Edit: if you take only offline tournaments (ASL + KSL) it's closer at 62.5% vP and 59.5% vT although the data was cut off after ASL16. After this season his ZvP win rate has increased a little bit.
Players now are honestly better than Kespa days. Mechically but specifically strategically, knowledge and experience. Things that were passable back then now are not. Bunch of players who didnt hit their skillcaps yet back in Kespa, and a bunch who did. Soulkey specifically plays strategically the smartest, which means the more time passes the better his playstyle becomes because everyone has capped their mechanics at this point. Only way to really get better at that point is better understanding of maps, situations, and strategy. In ZvZ is largely raw mechanics. You can see it in SKs play in tvz and pvz where he seems to avoid reallly intense and precise micro situations.
This argument again. Or did you mean to say "not mechanically"? Because mechanically basically everyone is worse than during Kespa. Knowledge and strategy has evolved a lot though but if you put a Flash or Jaedong from their Kespa peaks into the current era with the knowledge from the current era, they would likely have a win rate of >90 % vs everyone today.
I think what he meant, and also what I think, is:
(1) present mechanics <<< past mechanics (obviously, they were younger back then)
(2) however, present mechanics + present knowledge > past mechanics + past knowledge
(3) but of course, present mechanics + present knowledge <<< past mechanics + present knowledge (the benefit of time travelling)
As (3) doesn't exist, hence (2) means players now are better than Kespa players.
Are you really sure about this one? (1) present mechanics <<< past mechanics (obviously, they were younger back then)
I understand the age argument and I agree it is noticeable for some players, but at the same time others like Snow, Hero, Queen, Royal and even Mini have at least similar mechanics. I also understand the argument of having people 100% dedicated to broodwar in a team house but back then there were also a lot more people and not everyone had perfect play anyways, lots of guys were clearly worse mechanically than pro streamers today.
From what I can recall and get from late Kespa era I would say present mechanics are only slightly worse overall than present mechanics.
The mechanic debate is too lob-sided. Perhaps, maybe there was a period of time between 2010-2012 that mechanics were superior, but not much.
There are more factors at play than just 'age.'
There is also overall experience/time with the game and units which massively improved, so while an 18 year old may have faster absolute reaction time, a 30 year old may have a deeper understanding of how a unit works and is thus able to use it better, because he spend more time with the unit.
Same can be said for macro mechanics, most players before the Taek Bang LeeSsang era, learned how to play the game in a way that wasn't optimized. It's only the very last generation that learned from coaches, and built on 10 years of experience that learned the most efficient way to macro, base layout, proper F keys useage, etc. People also tend to forget you can change hotkeys now, which while it may be a small thing, that should lead to be better mechanics. Mice and keyboards have also improved substantially compared to 2008.
So if you compare that generation (which is still on top), to any play around 2007 or earlier, they have far superior mechanics now than top players did in 2007 (Iris, ggplay etc.).
The RTS genre as a whole and how good people are at playing games also evolves as a whole, a random foreigner now has a way deeper understanding of the game than any random foreigner pre-sc2, this is just because the overall knowledge pool, understanding, has increased massively, and not only because of translated guides, but also because people playing sc2 to a high level, time spent with the game being higher, etc. This is true for every layer of players all the way up to the top level.
So yeah, reaction-time peaked probably around when these gamers were 18-20 years old, but I don't think you can say that mechanics were necessarily superior. Someone like Jaedong was obviously faster pre sc2, but smart players like soma or soulkey I would say have better mechanics now, just because of the way they go about playing the game.
On April 19 2024 20:03 sas.Sziky wrote: Although I have no intention of teasing you, you are the king of statistics but what i found Effort overall statistic: 63,7 vsP 61,5 vsT 58.1 vsZ. it's hard to tell if you're trolling or deliberately trying to twist things. I was surprised to read your argument about zerg allin things, either you don't understand this game or me. about mechanics just look Zero who has become the beast after military as mechanic king then i dont think so past>currently this is just depends to many things again....
The stats are from tlpd. It's all there for anyone to see and verify. The stats you pulled are from liquipedia which I'm not sure is a mix of both Kespa and modern days or not. But tlpd stats for sure are only from Kespa.
But yeah, instead of finding it out yourself, or having the courtesy to ask why your numbers are different than me, let's just imply that the other is trolling or twisting the truth. I call that ignorance.
The reason Protoss is the worst faction is also the reason they are the most fun to play and watch. Their units suck and are overpriced causing them to rely on specialists units. The specialists: reaver, Templar, arbiter cannot be massed and require each one to be individually controlled.
There will never be a consensus but I am interested in what others think the brood war unit tier lists would look like.
Look at my boe Snow losing to the same lurker strategy in 2010 vs YellOw in also the most protoss favored map ever made.
Makes me wonder if Snow playstyle doesnt really matter for maps advantages. I remember he loss to Flash on Transistor. Super broken map for pvt aswell.
On April 20 2024 00:37 Postaljester_ wrote: The reason Protoss is the worst faction is also the reason they are the most fun to play and watch. Their units suck and are overpriced causing them to rely on specialists units. The specialists: reaver, Templar, arbiter cannot be massed and require each one to be individually controlled.
There will never be a consensus but I am interested in what others think the brood war unit tier lists would look like.
Is funny to call this protoss unit suck when some of them are capable of killing 45 units from zerg. Nah for real comedy.
On April 20 2024 00:37 Postaljester_ wrote: The reason Protoss is the worst faction is also the reason they are the most fun to play and watch. Their units suck and are overpriced causing them to rely on specialists units. The specialists: reaver, Templar, arbiter cannot be massed and require each one to be individually controlled.
There will never be a consensus but I am interested in what others think the brood war unit tier lists would look like.
Indeed. The protoss wins almost always feel the most exhilarating. Like watching a tight rope performer walk unasisted from one 50-story building to another. Gotta be perfect or you lose.
You have summarised my thoughts on this topic very well.
EPT
