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On October 31 2017 21:57 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:51 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:47 Dante08 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:30 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:21 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one that has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map (with an army worth 2x your maxed out army) without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Well bisu had the perfect set up for the game; he did not get harrassed he had a perfect economy and was maxed. Now one can say "terran is just op" *cry*cry* different approach: 1) How good was bisus unit composition (no hts with storm; zealot/goon ratio; enough arbiters or not; shuttles ect..)? 2) How good was his decision making when to pull back and when to keep attacking? Not nearly good enough in these games imo.. He didnt flank in the game on FS; he didnt pull back early enough; then he didnt defend his two nexuses but let them die and funnily attacked a few seconds after they were dead when nothing really changed.. that can happen to an average player but should not to a pro on bisus level Dont make it sound like tvp is imba; bisu didnt play as well a he could have when it mattered. THere is PLENTY of evidence that a toss can beat a terran in late game; it is about unit composition, how good the toss engages the fight; when he pulls back and how well he can macro; I promise you that you'll never find more games where P wins in a macro game with a maxed out ground army (zeal goon ht) + arbs vs a maxed out Terran army. Just think about Terran as a race rationally, they're the ultimate defensive race and they have the strongest maxed out army (by maxed out army i mean easiest accessible army, not talking about 200/200 pure carriers, i'm taking about same tier army comps), there's no debating that. The only way to weaken Terran is by making anti Terran maps, like ASL has this season (current map pool is great for ZvT). Have you even watched competitive BW during the Kespa era? Protoss wins late game usually because of better mobility, counter attacks, recall, being able to take multiple bases and remax faster. Terran needs to keep their army together while Protoss can attack multiple locations on the map. Yes head on the Protoss army usually loses but Protoss can afford to trade inefficiently due to having more bases which is the key to PvT. You are using Flash, the best player of all time as an example of Terran imba which is just stupid. I'm talking about modern day TvP where Terran's gameplay is so refined that Protoss' shit their pants whenever they go in for a recall because their entire army could just evaporate due to mines (which is why Protoss players in general rarely recall vs 3 base Terrans anymore, they only start recalling when they take bases further away from their main). On October 31 2017 21:49 FlaShFTW wrote:
Ok, honestly, can we stop conflating FlaSh with all terrans? TT1, honestly bro, if Terran was so damn imbalanced, explain why Protoss has a winning record against Terran overall? Explain that one to me. Because at this point you're just trying to make excuses for why FlaSh is the best and it's crossed a point where now it seems like you're trying to discredit everything FlaSh has achieved and worked for to get to this point in his career to where he's untouchable. Maybe you're not trying to do that, but it seems like it and the way you talk makes it seem like it. The easiest way to gauge the strength of Terran is to just look at the ladder rankings, every player ladders, even the high end pros. the fact that you have to resort to ladder rankings is hilarious and a ridiculous reach. Does that mean that people like santorin, who is #2 ladder in League, is the best jungle in NA right now? no that would be laughable to say something like that. Ladder means nothing. Once again, you seem to be dodging the question of how Protoss have had a winning record against Terran throughout history.
I'm not dodging the question, i'm not talking about the history of BW i'm talking about modern day BW. I already said everything i had to say about the history of BW in my previous thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/closed-threads/526706-all-time-bw-player-rankings-a-balance-discussion
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On October 31 2017 22:12 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 22:10 Dante08 wrote:You shouldn't look at Ladder rankings since you are focusing on TvP and Ladder includes all matchups. Why not pull out some Afreeca spon-match data and see the TvP win rates  We're talking about 3 races with the exact same variables.. the data is in front of yours, count em.
it is the MAPS that define how match ups work..
it is so evident; u simply cannot say T>P or Z>P
and once again: Bisu (especially on the FS game) had the perfect set up but simply made a few critical mistakes in this particular game.
SIMPLE AS THAT
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Terran is the strongest race for sure and protoss is the hardest/weakest. I thought most of the people are aware of that.
Everyone knows what is an pvz matchup for protoss players. So how about PvT?
1. Sure protoss have more options, have more mobility, but protoss also have more things to do than a Terran to win a game. Having more than a double the amount of buildings to macro from compared to terran, takes you away from the battle in which you need to do more than a terran in general. For best effectivenes you need to control multiple groups of army, clear mines, attack at certain angles, control arbiters, shutles and high templars. That makes it harder to pull out those options correctly and gives lead to Terran.
2. Terran army dont forgive mistakes, if you miss click your stasis or didnt control your army good enough you can insta lose the game.
3. Protoss can lose to a push in any part of the game. Toss need to know perfectly his opponent because small misscalculation can make him lose early or mid game to a push.
Terran have the best defence in the game, reavers, dts, midgame pushes rarely works against them. Terrans also have the best scouting, if you struggle to get obs or a probe into someones base you need Scan, you cannot deny terran spying your base, that gives a player all the information needed to react before anything happens.
4. Individual leagues stats.
Check race distribution in champions from OSL to ASL.
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On October 31 2017 22:18 Essbee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 22:13 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 22:10 FlaShFTW wrote:On October 31 2017 22:01 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:57 FlaShFTW wrote:On October 31 2017 21:51 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:47 Dante08 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:30 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:21 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:
[quote]
Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one that has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map (with an army worth 2x your maxed out army) without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Well bisu had the perfect set up for the game; he did not get harrassed he had a perfect economy and was maxed. Now one can say "terran is just op" *cry*cry* different approach: 1) How good was bisus unit composition (no hts with storm; zealot/goon ratio; enough arbiters or not; shuttles ect..)? 2) How good was his decision making when to pull back and when to keep attacking? Not nearly good enough in these games imo.. He didnt flank in the game on FS; he didnt pull back early enough; then he didnt defend his two nexuses but let them die and funnily attacked a few seconds after they were dead when nothing really changed.. that can happen to an average player but should not to a pro on bisus level Dont make it sound like tvp is imba; bisu didnt play as well a he could have when it mattered. THere is PLENTY of evidence that a toss can beat a terran in late game; it is about unit composition, how good the toss engages the fight; when he pulls back and how well he can macro; I promise you that you'll never find more games where P wins in a macro game with a maxed out ground army (zeal goon ht) + arbs vs a maxed out Terran army. Just think about Terran as a race rationally, they're the ultimate defensive race and they have the strongest maxed out army (by maxed out army i mean easiest accessible army, not talking about 200/200 pure carriers, i'm taking about same tier army comps), there's no debating that. The only way to weaken Terran is by making anti Terran maps, like ASL has this season (current map pool is great for ZvT). Have you even watched competitive BW during the Kespa era? Protoss wins late game usually because of better mobility, counter attacks, recall, being able to take multiple bases and remax faster. Terran needs to keep their army together while Protoss can attack multiple locations on the map. Yes head on the Protoss army usually loses but Protoss can afford to trade inefficiently due to having more bases which is the key to PvT. You are using Flash, the best player of all time as an example of Terran imba which is just stupid. I'm talking about modern day TvP where Terran's gameplay is so refined that Protoss' shit their pants whenever they go in for a recall because their entire army could just evaporate due to mines (which is why Protoss players in general rarely recall vs 3 base Terrans anymore, they only start recalling when they take bases further away from their main). On October 31 2017 21:49 FlaShFTW wrote:
Ok, honestly, can we stop conflating FlaSh with all terrans? TT1, honestly bro, if Terran was so damn imbalanced, explain why Protoss has a winning record against Terran overall? Explain that one to me. Because at this point you're just trying to make excuses for why FlaSh is the best and it's crossed a point where now it seems like you're trying to discredit everything FlaSh has achieved and worked for to get to this point in his career to where he's untouchable. Maybe you're not trying to do that, but it seems like it and the way you talk makes it seem like it. The easiest way to gauge the strength of Terran is to just look at the ladder rankings, every player ladders, even the high end pros. the fact that you have to resort to ladder rankings is hilarious and a ridiculous reach. Does that mean that people like santorin, who is #2 ladder in League, is the best jungle in NA right now? no that would be laughable to say something like that. Ladder means nothing. Once again, you seem to be dodging the question of how Protoss have had a winning record against Terran throughout history. idk what you mean to say by "winning record throughout history". What samplesize of games are we looking at? Proleague, OSL, MSL? Question au contraire: how do you explain the number of total OSL+MSL wins combined for each race? That is because there are 4 extremely dominant terrans. once again, what if any one of them had not been terran? what if 2 of them had not been terran? you cannot use players who were freaks of nature and incredible at the game to talk about the rest of the game. If you look at solely total individuals who have won starleagues, zergs actually have the most number of different players who have won starleagues. if terran was truly op, then you would see many more terrans reaching finals and winning. that is simply not the case. 10 different terrans have won an osl/msl or both. 11 zergs have won an osl/msl or both. 9 different protoss have won an osl/msl, or both. so no, terrans do not crush either race. it is the cream of the crop that terrans do succeed at, and once again, you cannot make an argument that they only succeed due to their race. that's nonsense. You're just claiming here that throughout the history of this game, by some coincidence, a much bigger number of the very best players *happen* to chose terran as their main race. Here is me saying if those players would've been protoss or zerg, they wouldn't have won as much. *shrug* It's a very possible coincidence for a game with a history of just 20 years. There are many factors. But we are not talking about a 100 years history here. What if in the next 20 years zergs have more success (after flash retires that would be VERY possible), then are we going to futilely argue once AGAIN because of a very specific data that is the number of titles? What about all of the zergs who go very far every tournament RIGHT NOW?
im talking the history we have at hand up to now, it seems to me more than enough data to be honest. But really thats a discussion beyond today's games, to make that clear and a discussion that cannot lead to a satisfying result; given the nature of the subject. Flash won in deserving fashion today, not doubt about it. We saw plenty of mistakes made by Bisu too.
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On October 31 2017 22:01 Cele wrote:
idk what you mean to say by "winning record throughout history". What samplesize of games are we looking at? Proleague, OSL, MSL? Question au contraire: how do you explain the number of total OSL+MSL wins combined for each race?
All official games : Link
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On October 31 2017 22:21 MaGic~PhiL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 22:12 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 22:10 Dante08 wrote:You shouldn't look at Ladder rankings since you are focusing on TvP and Ladder includes all matchups. Why not pull out some Afreeca spon-match data and see the TvP win rates We're talking about 3 races with the exact same variables.. the data is in front of yours, count em. it is the MAPS that define how match ups work.. it is so evident; u simply cannot say T>P or Z>P and one again: Bisu (especially on the FS game) had the perfect set up but simply made a few critical mistakes in this particular game. SIMPLE AS THAT
The maps for all those players are the same, FS/CB/Outsider. Aside from Outsider (which is a Zerg map) you can't get more standard maps than that.
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Balance whine used to be bannable on here... Flash beating Bisu in TvP isn't a surprise. Unless there's something funky like a gas steal or some early game play flash will always be the late game favorite. It's got nothing to do with balance and everything to do with who's playing. It's really irritating seeing the whiners come out when a top 5 PvT loses 3-1 to the greatest terran/player of all time, like its indicative of issues in the matchup... If Bisu starts dropping games to no-name terrans then maybe you can bring it up.
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Flash won and people are debating? Wow.
GG
PS Bisu fanboys are literally the worst
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The only problem that Protoss has is that it's hard to make a map that favors them against both Z and T, but it has happened before. Making a one-sided PvT map or a one-sided PvZ map is easy.
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FlaSh continuing to demonstrate why he's a god.
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TT1 would u be so kind and answer if we agree on this?
1) Bisus unit composition was not as good as it could have been (lack of hts and storm; shuttle with hts even better)
2) Bisus decision when, how, where and for how long to attack was bad
3) Bisus stasises were definitely not good (too far in front, stasised own units)
4) Bisus decision to let his two last nexuses (at the top of the map) die when he could have defended them (which he showed he could because he did so 5-10 seconds after the nexuses went down -_-)
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On October 31 2017 22:24 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 22:18 Essbee wrote:On October 31 2017 22:13 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 22:10 FlaShFTW wrote:On October 31 2017 22:01 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:57 FlaShFTW wrote:On October 31 2017 21:51 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:47 Dante08 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:30 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:21 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
[quote]
Well bisu had the perfect set up for the game; he did not get harrassed he had a perfect economy and was maxed.
Now one can say "terran is just op" *cry*cry*
different approach:
1) How good was bisus unit composition (no hts with storm; zealot/goon ratio; enough arbiters or not; shuttles ect..)?
2) How good was his decision making when to pull back and when to keep attacking?
Not nearly good enough in these games imo.. He didnt flank in the game on FS; he didnt pull back early enough; then he didnt defend his two nexuses but let them die and funnily attacked a few seconds after they were dead when nothing really changed..
that can happen to an average player but should not to a pro on bisus level
Dont make it sound like tvp is imba; bisu didnt play as well a he could have when it mattered. THere is PLENTY of evidence that a toss can beat a terran in late game;
it is about unit composition, how good the toss engages the fight; when he pulls back and how well he can macro;
I promise you that you'll never find more games where P wins in a macro game with a maxed out ground army (zeal goon ht) + arbs vs a maxed out Terran army. Just think about Terran as a race rationally, they're the ultimate defensive race and they have the strongest maxed out army (by maxed out army i mean easiest accessible army, not talking about 200/200 pure carriers, i'm taking about same tier army comps), there's no debating that. The only way to weaken Terran is by making anti Terran maps, like ASL has this season (current map pool is great for ZvT). Have you even watched competitive BW during the Kespa era? Protoss wins late game usually because of better mobility, counter attacks, recall, being able to take multiple bases and remax faster. Terran needs to keep their army together while Protoss can attack multiple locations on the map. Yes head on the Protoss army usually loses but Protoss can afford to trade inefficiently due to having more bases which is the key to PvT. You are using Flash, the best player of all time as an example of Terran imba which is just stupid. I'm talking about modern day TvP where Terran's gameplay is so refined that Protoss' shit their pants whenever they go in for a recall because their entire army could just evaporate due to mines (which is why Protoss players in general rarely recall vs 3 base Terrans anymore, they only start recalling when they take bases further away from their main). On October 31 2017 21:49 FlaShFTW wrote:
Ok, honestly, can we stop conflating FlaSh with all terrans? TT1, honestly bro, if Terran was so damn imbalanced, explain why Protoss has a winning record against Terran overall? Explain that one to me. Because at this point you're just trying to make excuses for why FlaSh is the best and it's crossed a point where now it seems like you're trying to discredit everything FlaSh has achieved and worked for to get to this point in his career to where he's untouchable. Maybe you're not trying to do that, but it seems like it and the way you talk makes it seem like it. The easiest way to gauge the strength of Terran is to just look at the ladder rankings, every player ladders, even the high end pros. the fact that you have to resort to ladder rankings is hilarious and a ridiculous reach. Does that mean that people like santorin, who is #2 ladder in League, is the best jungle in NA right now? no that would be laughable to say something like that. Ladder means nothing. Once again, you seem to be dodging the question of how Protoss have had a winning record against Terran throughout history. idk what you mean to say by "winning record throughout history". What samplesize of games are we looking at? Proleague, OSL, MSL? Question au contraire: how do you explain the number of total OSL+MSL wins combined for each race? That is because there are 4 extremely dominant terrans. once again, what if any one of them had not been terran? what if 2 of them had not been terran? you cannot use players who were freaks of nature and incredible at the game to talk about the rest of the game. If you look at solely total individuals who have won starleagues, zergs actually have the most number of different players who have won starleagues. if terran was truly op, then you would see many more terrans reaching finals and winning. that is simply not the case. 10 different terrans have won an osl/msl or both. 11 zergs have won an osl/msl or both. 9 different protoss have won an osl/msl, or both. so no, terrans do not crush either race. it is the cream of the crop that terrans do succeed at, and once again, you cannot make an argument that they only succeed due to their race. that's nonsense. You're just claiming here that throughout the history of this game, by some coincidence, a much bigger number of the very best players *happen* to chose terran as their main race. Here is me saying if those players would've been protoss or zerg, they wouldn't have won as much. *shrug* It's a very possible coincidence for a game with a history of just 20 years. There are many factors. But we are not talking about a 100 years history here. What if in the next 20 years zergs have more success (after flash retires that would be VERY possible), then are we going to futilely argue once AGAIN because of a very specific data that is the number of titles? What about all of the zergs who go very far every tournament RIGHT NOW? im talking the history we have at hand up to now, it seems to me more than enough data to be honest. But really thats a discussion beyond today's games, to make that clear and a discussion that cannot lead to a satisfying result; given the nature of the subject. Flash won in deserving fashion today, not doubt about it. We saw plenty of mistakes made by Bisu too.
These days, terrans are in a pretty bad spot. ONLY flash is achieving starleague results. Just goes to show that if you are a GOOD player, you can achieve anything. The "tesagi" certainly isn't helping mong or mind, or last, or iris, or fbh, or ssuk, or sea...
It's very obvious to me that flash is way above anyone else, only effort is just as consistent and has a similar knowledge about the game imo. I believe flash would win with any race at this point, I've never seen anyone play this perfectly, no matter the race, but I cant prove it except if he decides to actually do it... because people need obvious, in your face, results (not kcm apparently).
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Did anyone else get chills to Iris vs. Bisu for g1 I'm just watching them now.
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Bulgaria750 Posts
On October 31 2017 22:32 ShAd_1337 wrote:
Flash is a good player
Nah, I don't buy it.
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On October 31 2017 22:33 intotheheart wrote:
Did anyone else get chills to Iris vs. Bisu for g1 I'm just watching them now.
i'm on iris's stream but he's just talking?
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On October 31 2017 22:26 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
TT1 would u be so kind and answer if we agree on this?
1) Bisus unit composition was not as good as it could have been (lack of hts and storm; shuttle with hts even better)
2) Bisus decision when, how, where and for how long to attack was bad
3) Bisus stasises were definitely not good (too far in front, stasised own units)
4) Bisus decision to let his two last nexuses (at the top of the map) die when he could have defended them (which he showed he could because he did so 5-10 seconds after the nexuses went down -_-)
You've asked this numerous times so i won't be rude and ignore you but i don't understand what you're trying to achieve here, anyways:
1) Nope it wasn't he could have added HT's to make his army stronger, still doesn't mean he would have traded better tho (but yes it's more likely that he would have, still can't know if he would have killed enough to deny FlaSh from just marching to his nat)
2) Where he attacked wasn't wrong (at the bridge) but he should have backed up earlier
3) I agree, he should have stasis'ed the tanks at the back and taken out the tanks at the front with his army
4) I don't know but the game was already over once FlaSh took control of his nat, he couldn't move out with his main base army to help protect his top bases
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On October 31 2017 22:32 ShAd_1337 wrote:
Flash is a good player
That's a controversial opinion ;o
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On October 31 2017 22:34 Essbee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 22:33 intotheheart wrote:
Did anyone else get chills to Iris vs. Bisu for g1 I'm just watching them now. i'm on iris's stream but he's just talking?
I think it was Avalon MSL Ro8 or something where it looked like Terran just made stuff, attacked, and then won. 
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On October 31 2017 22:34 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 22:26 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
TT1 would u be so kind and answer if we agree on this?
1) Bisus unit composition was not as good as it could have been (lack of hts and storm; shuttle with hts even better)
2) Bisus decision when, how, where and for how long to attack was bad
3) Bisus stasises were definitely not good (too far in front, stasised own units)
4) Bisus decision to let his two last nexuses (at the top of the map) die when he could have defended them (which he showed he could because he did so 5-10 seconds after the nexuses went down -_-) You've asked this numerous times so i won't be rude and ignore you but i don't understand what you're trying to achieve here, anyways: 1) Nope it wasn't he could have added HT's to make his army stronger, still doesn't mean he would have traded better tho (but yes it's more likely that he would have, still can't know if he would have killed enough to deny FlaSh from just marching to his nat) 2) Where he attacked wasn't wrong (at the bridge) but he should have backed up earlier 3) I agree, he should have stasis'ed the tanks at the back and taken out the tanks at the front with his army 4) I don't know but the game was already over once FlaSh took control of his nat, he couldn't move out with his main base army to help protect his top bases
You are a good protoss player, wouldn't you agree that it was a mistake when he decided to attack flash's third on gold rush after losing two shuttles worth of stuff? I really don't see the point of him doing this, I only see it as a mistake and nothing else...
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EPT
