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On October 31 2017 21:41 MaGic~PhiL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:30 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:21 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one that has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map (with an army worth 2x your maxed out army) without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Well bisu had the perfect set up for the game; he did not get harrassed he had a perfect economy and was maxed. Now one can say "terran is just op" *cry*cry* different approach: 1) How good was bisus unit composition (no hts with storm; zealot/goon ratio; enough arbiters or not; shuttles ect..)? 2) How good was his decision making when to pull back and when to keep attacking? Not nearly good enough in these games imo.. He didnt flank in the game on FS; he didnt pull back early enough; then he didnt defend his two nexuses but let them die and funnily attacked a few seconds after they were dead when nothing really changed.. that can happen to an average player but should not to a pro on bisus level Dont make it sound like tvp is imba; bisu didnt play as well a he could have when it mattered. THere is PLENTY of evidence that a toss can beat a terran in late game; it is about unit composition, how good the toss engages the fight; when he pulls back and how well he can macro; I promise you that you'll never find more games where P wins in a macro game with a maxed out ground army (zeal goon ht) + arbs vs a maxed out Terran army. Just think about Terran as a race rationally, they're the ultimate defensive race and they have the strongest maxed out army, there's no debating that. The only way to weaken Terran is by making anti Terran maps, like ASL has this season (current map pool is great for ZvT). the protoss never (almost) wins one big fight; but if he is good and succesfull (which he certainly can be) what happens is: he loses every fight but the terran loses a substantial amount of units in every fight and the toss can finally stabilize due to producing out of ~20-25 gateways. bisu had this set up perfectly in the game on FS do u disagree with those statements: 1) Bisus unit composition was not as good as it could have been (lack of hts and storm; shuttle with hts even better) 2) Bisus decision when, how, where and for how long to attack was bad 3) Bisus stasises were definitely not good (too far in front, stasised own units) 4) Bisus decision to let his two last nexuses (at the top of the map) die when he could have defended them (which he showed he could because he did so 5-10 seconds after the nexuses went down -_-) now if u agree with these statements.. u agree that it was at least (!!!) not only the fact that 200/200 mech is so strong that bisu lost this particular game but a LOT of other things on behalf of bisu..
in case u missed it TT1
cant we just agree that a 200/200 terran mech army is hard to beat (and almost impossible to beat in one single fight) BUT it is beatable and bisu just made too many mistakes..
those games are definitely not the ones to look at and argue that TvP is inherently imbalanced.. mistakes were made
mistakes were made..
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On October 31 2017 21:45 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:42 Cryoc wrote:On October 31 2017 21:17 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:14 Cryoc wrote:On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one that has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map (with an army worth 2x your maxed out army) without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Yeah, watch as a Terran army sieges 3s too late and their army magically disappears. That's not a micro mistake that's a newb mistake, again i'm talking about high-end progamer T's. Being able to scan ahead of your army is a given, when have you seen a progamer T siege his tanks late in a 200/200 fight vs P? All terran has to do is scan, siege/unsiege and EMP, once you hit 200/200 you don't even need to plant mines to fight P's army (mines become extremely effective once you secure a good position and you can cut off reinforcing units from other bases with them). Odds of making a micro mistake is extremely low given how little you need to do to manage your army and the strength of it. The biggest mistake T can make is getting caught off guard and getting a lot of their vessels stasis'd while they're unsieged. Obviously that's an instant loss but that has nothing to do with micro, it's more of a multitask mistake. Ah, I see, so there is no micro at progamer level. The units just move on its own. Good logic. Makes certainly sense coming from a Protoss player. Please tell me what micro mistake can Terran make in a 200 vs 200 fight and how often have you seen it happen.
I'm a protoss player, my favourite players are all protoss players but this is stretching it a bit IMO.
A terran player can always unsiege in bad rhythm, stay sieged up too long, have no vultures in front, or none at all, let tanks kill each other with autotargetting, spread out too thin, let the vessels die, fuck up the EMP, etc.
It's harder for toss but it's not like terrans can't lose engagements (emphasis on them losing vs. toss winning it, the engagement).
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United States10097 Posts
On October 31 2017 21:56 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:47 Dante08 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:30 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:21 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one that has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map (with an army worth 2x your maxed out army) without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Well bisu had the perfect set up for the game; he did not get harrassed he had a perfect economy and was maxed. Now one can say "terran is just op" *cry*cry* different approach: 1) How good was bisus unit composition (no hts with storm; zealot/goon ratio; enough arbiters or not; shuttles ect..)? 2) How good was his decision making when to pull back and when to keep attacking? Not nearly good enough in these games imo.. He didnt flank in the game on FS; he didnt pull back early enough; then he didnt defend his two nexuses but let them die and funnily attacked a few seconds after they were dead when nothing really changed.. that can happen to an average player but should not to a pro on bisus level Dont make it sound like tvp is imba; bisu didnt play as well a he could have when it mattered. THere is PLENTY of evidence that a toss can beat a terran in late game; it is about unit composition, how good the toss engages the fight; when he pulls back and how well he can macro; I promise you that you'll never find more games where P wins in a macro game with a maxed out ground army (zeal goon ht) + arbs vs a maxed out Terran army. Just think about Terran as a race rationally, they're the ultimate defensive race and they have the strongest maxed out army (by maxed out army i mean easiest accessible army, not talking about 200/200 pure carriers, i'm taking about same tier army comps), there's no debating that. The only way to weaken Terran is by making anti Terran maps, like ASL has this season (current map pool is great for ZvT). Have you even watched competitive BW during the Kespa era? Protoss wins late game usually because of better mobility, counter attacks, recall, being able to take multiple bases and remax faster. Terran needs to keep their army together while Protoss can attack multiple locations on the map. Yes head on the Protoss army usually loses but Protoss can afford to trade inefficiently due to having more bases which is the key to PvT. You are using Flash, the best player of all time as an example of Terran imba which is just stupid. perhaps he wouldn't be considered best player of all time if Terran wasn't imba. How many Bonjwa's are terran; again ? 
the bonjwa argument is bad. you are using a low sample size of players to justify your argument which is, in and of itself, a strawman. if any of these players who currently play terran were any other race, your argument would being to fall apart easily. im not going to argue hypothetical of flash played protoss or zerg.
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On October 31 2017 21:57 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:51 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:47 Dante08 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:30 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:21 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one that has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map (with an army worth 2x your maxed out army) without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Well bisu had the perfect set up for the game; he did not get harrassed he had a perfect economy and was maxed. Now one can say "terran is just op" *cry*cry* different approach: 1) How good was bisus unit composition (no hts with storm; zealot/goon ratio; enough arbiters or not; shuttles ect..)? 2) How good was his decision making when to pull back and when to keep attacking? Not nearly good enough in these games imo.. He didnt flank in the game on FS; he didnt pull back early enough; then he didnt defend his two nexuses but let them die and funnily attacked a few seconds after they were dead when nothing really changed.. that can happen to an average player but should not to a pro on bisus level Dont make it sound like tvp is imba; bisu didnt play as well a he could have when it mattered. THere is PLENTY of evidence that a toss can beat a terran in late game; it is about unit composition, how good the toss engages the fight; when he pulls back and how well he can macro; I promise you that you'll never find more games where P wins in a macro game with a maxed out ground army (zeal goon ht) + arbs vs a maxed out Terran army. Just think about Terran as a race rationally, they're the ultimate defensive race and they have the strongest maxed out army (by maxed out army i mean easiest accessible army, not talking about 200/200 pure carriers, i'm taking about same tier army comps), there's no debating that. The only way to weaken Terran is by making anti Terran maps, like ASL has this season (current map pool is great for ZvT). Have you even watched competitive BW during the Kespa era? Protoss wins late game usually because of better mobility, counter attacks, recall, being able to take multiple bases and remax faster. Terran needs to keep their army together while Protoss can attack multiple locations on the map. Yes head on the Protoss army usually loses but Protoss can afford to trade inefficiently due to having more bases which is the key to PvT. You are using Flash, the best player of all time as an example of Terran imba which is just stupid. I'm talking about modern day TvP where Terran's gameplay is so refined that Protoss' shit their pants whenever they go in for a recall because their entire army could just evaporate due to mines (which is why Protoss players in general rarely recall vs 3 base Terrans anymore, they only start recalling when they take bases further away from their main). On October 31 2017 21:49 FlaShFTW wrote:
Ok, honestly, can we stop conflating FlaSh with all terrans? TT1, honestly bro, if Terran was so damn imbalanced, explain why Protoss has a winning record against Terran overall? Explain that one to me. Because at this point you're just trying to make excuses for why FlaSh is the best and it's crossed a point where now it seems like you're trying to discredit everything FlaSh has achieved and worked for to get to this point in his career to where he's untouchable. Maybe you're not trying to do that, but it seems like it and the way you talk makes it seem like it. The easiest way to gauge the strength of Terran is to just look at the ladder rankings, every player ladders, even the high end pros. the fact that you have to resort to ladder rankings is hilarious and a ridiculous reach. Does that mean that people like santorin, who is #2 ladder in League, is the best jungle in NA right now? no that would be laughable to say something like that. Ladder means nothing. Once again, you seem to be dodging the question of how Protoss have had a winning record against Terran throughout history.
idk what you mean to say by "winning record throughout history". What samplesize of games are we looking at? Proleague, OSL, MSL? Question au contraire: how do you explain the number of total OSL+MSL wins combined for each race?
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United States10097 Posts
On October 31 2017 21:58 MaGic~PhiL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:41 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On October 31 2017 21:30 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:21 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one that has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map (with an army worth 2x your maxed out army) without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Well bisu had the perfect set up for the game; he did not get harrassed he had a perfect economy and was maxed. Now one can say "terran is just op" *cry*cry* different approach: 1) How good was bisus unit composition (no hts with storm; zealot/goon ratio; enough arbiters or not; shuttles ect..)? 2) How good was his decision making when to pull back and when to keep attacking? Not nearly good enough in these games imo.. He didnt flank in the game on FS; he didnt pull back early enough; then he didnt defend his two nexuses but let them die and funnily attacked a few seconds after they were dead when nothing really changed.. that can happen to an average player but should not to a pro on bisus level Dont make it sound like tvp is imba; bisu didnt play as well a he could have when it mattered. THere is PLENTY of evidence that a toss can beat a terran in late game; it is about unit composition, how good the toss engages the fight; when he pulls back and how well he can macro; I promise you that you'll never find more games where P wins in a macro game with a maxed out ground army (zeal goon ht) + arbs vs a maxed out Terran army. Just think about Terran as a race rationally, they're the ultimate defensive race and they have the strongest maxed out army, there's no debating that. The only way to weaken Terran is by making anti Terran maps, like ASL has this season (current map pool is great for ZvT). the protoss never (almost) wins one big fight; but if he is good and succesfull (which he certainly can be) what happens is: he loses every fight but the terran loses a substantial amount of units in every fight and the toss can finally stabilize due to producing out of ~20-25 gateways. bisu had this set up perfectly in the game on FS do u disagree with those statements: 1) Bisus unit composition was not as good as it could have been (lack of hts and storm; shuttle with hts even better) 2) Bisus decision when, how, where and for how long to attack was bad 3) Bisus stasises were definitely not good (too far in front, stasised own units) 4) Bisus decision to let his two last nexuses (at the top of the map) die when he could have defended them (which he showed he could because he did so 5-10 seconds after the nexuses went down -_-) now if u agree with these statements.. u agree that it was at least (!!!) not only the fact that 200/200 mech is so strong that bisu lost this particular game but a LOT of other things on behalf of bisu.. in case u missed it TT1 cant we just agree that a 200/200 terran mech army is hard to beat (and almost impossible to beat in one single fight) BUT it is beatable and bisu just made too many mistakes.. those games are definitely not the ones to look at and argue that TvP is inherently imbalanced.. mistakes were made mistakes were made..
no, TT1 has a raging terran hate boner the size of mt. everest. he will never agree that protoss got outplayed this series. its always tesagi. i wonder if he says the same thing when he loses to terrans on ladder or in tournaments.
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On October 31 2017 21:57 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:51 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:47 Dante08 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:30 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:21 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one that has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map (with an army worth 2x your maxed out army) without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Well bisu had the perfect set up for the game; he did not get harrassed he had a perfect economy and was maxed. Now one can say "terran is just op" *cry*cry* different approach: 1) How good was bisus unit composition (no hts with storm; zealot/goon ratio; enough arbiters or not; shuttles ect..)? 2) How good was his decision making when to pull back and when to keep attacking? Not nearly good enough in these games imo.. He didnt flank in the game on FS; he didnt pull back early enough; then he didnt defend his two nexuses but let them die and funnily attacked a few seconds after they were dead when nothing really changed.. that can happen to an average player but should not to a pro on bisus level Dont make it sound like tvp is imba; bisu didnt play as well a he could have when it mattered. THere is PLENTY of evidence that a toss can beat a terran in late game; it is about unit composition, how good the toss engages the fight; when he pulls back and how well he can macro; I promise you that you'll never find more games where P wins in a macro game with a maxed out ground army (zeal goon ht) + arbs vs a maxed out Terran army. Just think about Terran as a race rationally, they're the ultimate defensive race and they have the strongest maxed out army (by maxed out army i mean easiest accessible army, not talking about 200/200 pure carriers, i'm taking about same tier army comps), there's no debating that. The only way to weaken Terran is by making anti Terran maps, like ASL has this season (current map pool is great for ZvT). Have you even watched competitive BW during the Kespa era? Protoss wins late game usually because of better mobility, counter attacks, recall, being able to take multiple bases and remax faster. Terran needs to keep their army together while Protoss can attack multiple locations on the map. Yes head on the Protoss army usually loses but Protoss can afford to trade inefficiently due to having more bases which is the key to PvT. You are using Flash, the best player of all time as an example of Terran imba which is just stupid. I'm talking about modern day TvP where Terran's gameplay is so refined that Protoss' shit their pants whenever they go in for a recall because their entire army could just evaporate due to mines (which is why Protoss players in general rarely recall vs 3 base Terrans anymore, they only start recalling when they take bases further away from their main). On October 31 2017 21:49 FlaShFTW wrote:
Ok, honestly, can we stop conflating FlaSh with all terrans? TT1, honestly bro, if Terran was so damn imbalanced, explain why Protoss has a winning record against Terran overall? Explain that one to me. Because at this point you're just trying to make excuses for why FlaSh is the best and it's crossed a point where now it seems like you're trying to discredit everything FlaSh has achieved and worked for to get to this point in his career to where he's untouchable. Maybe you're not trying to do that, but it seems like it and the way you talk makes it seem like it. The easiest way to gauge the strength of Terran is to just look at the ladder rankings, every player ladders, even the high end pros. the fact that you have to resort to ladder rankings is hilarious and a ridiculous reach. Does that mean that people like santorin, who is #2 ladder in League, is the best jungle in NA right now? no that would be laughable to say something like that. Ladder means nothing. Once again, you seem to be dodging the question of how Protoss have had a winning record against Terran throughout history.
Comparing ladder in a team game to ladder in a 1v1 game isn't really a good comparison either though.
in 1v1 settings ladder does mean something, it's not definitive but it does have some meaning.
If there was a 1v1 mid mode for league of legends, do you think faker would come out on top?
If the emphasis of starcraft was 4v4 with random teammates then league of legends would be a more adequate comparison.
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United States10097 Posts
On October 31 2017 22:01 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:57 FlaShFTW wrote:On October 31 2017 21:51 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:47 Dante08 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:30 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:21 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one that has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map (with an army worth 2x your maxed out army) without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Well bisu had the perfect set up for the game; he did not get harrassed he had a perfect economy and was maxed. Now one can say "terran is just op" *cry*cry* different approach: 1) How good was bisus unit composition (no hts with storm; zealot/goon ratio; enough arbiters or not; shuttles ect..)? 2) How good was his decision making when to pull back and when to keep attacking? Not nearly good enough in these games imo.. He didnt flank in the game on FS; he didnt pull back early enough; then he didnt defend his two nexuses but let them die and funnily attacked a few seconds after they were dead when nothing really changed.. that can happen to an average player but should not to a pro on bisus level Dont make it sound like tvp is imba; bisu didnt play as well a he could have when it mattered. THere is PLENTY of evidence that a toss can beat a terran in late game; it is about unit composition, how good the toss engages the fight; when he pulls back and how well he can macro; I promise you that you'll never find more games where P wins in a macro game with a maxed out ground army (zeal goon ht) + arbs vs a maxed out Terran army. Just think about Terran as a race rationally, they're the ultimate defensive race and they have the strongest maxed out army (by maxed out army i mean easiest accessible army, not talking about 200/200 pure carriers, i'm taking about same tier army comps), there's no debating that. The only way to weaken Terran is by making anti Terran maps, like ASL has this season (current map pool is great for ZvT). Have you even watched competitive BW during the Kespa era? Protoss wins late game usually because of better mobility, counter attacks, recall, being able to take multiple bases and remax faster. Terran needs to keep their army together while Protoss can attack multiple locations on the map. Yes head on the Protoss army usually loses but Protoss can afford to trade inefficiently due to having more bases which is the key to PvT. You are using Flash, the best player of all time as an example of Terran imba which is just stupid. I'm talking about modern day TvP where Terran's gameplay is so refined that Protoss' shit their pants whenever they go in for a recall because their entire army could just evaporate due to mines (which is why Protoss players in general rarely recall vs 3 base Terrans anymore, they only start recalling when they take bases further away from their main). On October 31 2017 21:49 FlaShFTW wrote:
Ok, honestly, can we stop conflating FlaSh with all terrans? TT1, honestly bro, if Terran was so damn imbalanced, explain why Protoss has a winning record against Terran overall? Explain that one to me. Because at this point you're just trying to make excuses for why FlaSh is the best and it's crossed a point where now it seems like you're trying to discredit everything FlaSh has achieved and worked for to get to this point in his career to where he's untouchable. Maybe you're not trying to do that, but it seems like it and the way you talk makes it seem like it. The easiest way to gauge the strength of Terran is to just look at the ladder rankings, every player ladders, even the high end pros. the fact that you have to resort to ladder rankings is hilarious and a ridiculous reach. Does that mean that people like santorin, who is #2 ladder in League, is the best jungle in NA right now? no that would be laughable to say something like that. Ladder means nothing. Once again, you seem to be dodging the question of how Protoss have had a winning record against Terran throughout history. idk what you mean to say by "winning record throughout history". What samplesize of games are we looking at? Proleague, OSL, MSL? Question au contraire: how do you explain the number of total OSL+MSL wins combined for each race?
That is because there are 4 extremely dominant terrans. once again, what if any one of them had not been terran? what if 2 of them had not been terran? you cannot use players who were freaks of nature and incredible at the game to talk about the rest of the game. If you look at solely total individuals who have won starleagues, zergs actually have the most number of different players who have won starleagues.
if terran was truly op, then you would see many more terrans reaching finals and winning. that is simply not the case. 10 different terrans have won an osl/msl or both. 11 zergs have won an osl/msl or both. 9 different protoss have won an osl/msl, or both. so no, terrans do not crush either race. it is the cream of the crop that terrans do succeed at, and once again, you cannot make an argument that they only succeed due to their race.
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This was expected, Bisu in good form can't contend with Flash in this era. Flash will be ASL crown winner again this year.
If only Hero didn't knock out Larva in that dice roll Zerg mirror. Clearly, Hero does not stand a chance against Flash, only Larva would be a contender.
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On October 31 2017 22:02 d(O.o)a wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:57 FlaShFTW wrote:On October 31 2017 21:51 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:47 Dante08 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:30 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:21 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one that has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map (with an army worth 2x your maxed out army) without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Well bisu had the perfect set up for the game; he did not get harrassed he had a perfect economy and was maxed. Now one can say "terran is just op" *cry*cry* different approach: 1) How good was bisus unit composition (no hts with storm; zealot/goon ratio; enough arbiters or not; shuttles ect..)? 2) How good was his decision making when to pull back and when to keep attacking? Not nearly good enough in these games imo.. He didnt flank in the game on FS; he didnt pull back early enough; then he didnt defend his two nexuses but let them die and funnily attacked a few seconds after they were dead when nothing really changed.. that can happen to an average player but should not to a pro on bisus level Dont make it sound like tvp is imba; bisu didnt play as well a he could have when it mattered. THere is PLENTY of evidence that a toss can beat a terran in late game; it is about unit composition, how good the toss engages the fight; when he pulls back and how well he can macro; I promise you that you'll never find more games where P wins in a macro game with a maxed out ground army (zeal goon ht) + arbs vs a maxed out Terran army. Just think about Terran as a race rationally, they're the ultimate defensive race and they have the strongest maxed out army (by maxed out army i mean easiest accessible army, not talking about 200/200 pure carriers, i'm taking about same tier army comps), there's no debating that. The only way to weaken Terran is by making anti Terran maps, like ASL has this season (current map pool is great for ZvT). Have you even watched competitive BW during the Kespa era? Protoss wins late game usually because of better mobility, counter attacks, recall, being able to take multiple bases and remax faster. Terran needs to keep their army together while Protoss can attack multiple locations on the map. Yes head on the Protoss army usually loses but Protoss can afford to trade inefficiently due to having more bases which is the key to PvT. You are using Flash, the best player of all time as an example of Terran imba which is just stupid. I'm talking about modern day TvP where Terran's gameplay is so refined that Protoss' shit their pants whenever they go in for a recall because their entire army could just evaporate due to mines (which is why Protoss players in general rarely recall vs 3 base Terrans anymore, they only start recalling when they take bases further away from their main). On October 31 2017 21:49 FlaShFTW wrote:
Ok, honestly, can we stop conflating FlaSh with all terrans? TT1, honestly bro, if Terran was so damn imbalanced, explain why Protoss has a winning record against Terran overall? Explain that one to me. Because at this point you're just trying to make excuses for why FlaSh is the best and it's crossed a point where now it seems like you're trying to discredit everything FlaSh has achieved and worked for to get to this point in his career to where he's untouchable. Maybe you're not trying to do that, but it seems like it and the way you talk makes it seem like it. The easiest way to gauge the strength of Terran is to just look at the ladder rankings, every player ladders, even the high end pros. the fact that you have to resort to ladder rankings is hilarious and a ridiculous reach. Does that mean that people like santorin, who is #2 ladder in League, is the best jungle in NA right now? no that would be laughable to say something like that. Ladder means nothing. Once again, you seem to be dodging the question of how Protoss have had a winning record against Terran throughout history. Comparing ladder in a team game to ladder in a 1v1 game isn't really a good comparison either though. in 1v1 settings ladder does mean something, it's not definitive but it does have some meaning. If there was a 1v1 mid mode for league of legends, do you think faker would come out on top? If the emphasis of starcraft was 4v4 with random teammates then league of legends would be a more adequate comparison.
obviously there are differences but i dont think thats the point here. a ladder is a good indication of skill or whatever but who really cares about the top10 players if they cant win any tournaments in an offline enviroment?
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You shouldn't look at Ladder rankings since you are focusing on TvP and Ladder includes all matchups. Why not pull out some Afreeca spon-match data and see the TvP win rates 
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TT1
1) Bisus unit composition was not as good as it could have been (lack of hts and storm; shuttle with hts even better)
2) Bisus decision when, how, where and for how long to attack was bad
3) Bisus stasises were definitely not good (too far in front, stasised own units)
4) Bisus decision to let his two last nexuses (at the top of the map) die when he could have defended them (which he showed he could because he did so 5-10 seconds after the nexuses went down -_-)
u agree with this?
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United States10097 Posts
On October 31 2017 22:11 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
TT1
1) Bisus unit composition was not as good as it could have been (lack of hts and storm; shuttle with hts even better)
2) Bisus decision when, how, where and for how long to attack was bad
3) Bisus stasises were definitely not good (too far in front, stasised own units)
4) Bisus decision to let his two last nexuses (at the top of the map) die when he could have defended them (which he showed he could because he did so 5-10 seconds after the nexuses went down -_-)
u agree with this?
bro stop trying to reason with him, let him rant about it. he clearly isnt going to listen at all.
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On October 31 2017 22:10 Dante08 wrote:You shouldn't look at Ladder rankings since you are focusing on TvP and Ladder includes all matchups. Why not pull out some Afreeca spon-match data and see the TvP win rates
We're talking about 3 races with the exact same variables.. the data is in front of yours, count em.
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On October 31 2017 21:56 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:47 Dante08 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:30 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:21 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one that has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map (with an army worth 2x your maxed out army) without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Well bisu had the perfect set up for the game; he did not get harrassed he had a perfect economy and was maxed. Now one can say "terran is just op" *cry*cry* different approach: 1) How good was bisus unit composition (no hts with storm; zealot/goon ratio; enough arbiters or not; shuttles ect..)? 2) How good was his decision making when to pull back and when to keep attacking? Not nearly good enough in these games imo.. He didnt flank in the game on FS; he didnt pull back early enough; then he didnt defend his two nexuses but let them die and funnily attacked a few seconds after they were dead when nothing really changed.. that can happen to an average player but should not to a pro on bisus level Dont make it sound like tvp is imba; bisu didnt play as well a he could have when it mattered. THere is PLENTY of evidence that a toss can beat a terran in late game; it is about unit composition, how good the toss engages the fight; when he pulls back and how well he can macro; I promise you that you'll never find more games where P wins in a macro game with a maxed out ground army (zeal goon ht) + arbs vs a maxed out Terran army. Just think about Terran as a race rationally, they're the ultimate defensive race and they have the strongest maxed out army (by maxed out army i mean easiest accessible army, not talking about 200/200 pure carriers, i'm taking about same tier army comps), there's no debating that. The only way to weaken Terran is by making anti Terran maps, like ASL has this season (current map pool is great for ZvT). Have you even watched competitive BW during the Kespa era? Protoss wins late game usually because of better mobility, counter attacks, recall, being able to take multiple bases and remax faster. Terran needs to keep their army together while Protoss can attack multiple locations on the map. Yes head on the Protoss army usually loses but Protoss can afford to trade inefficiently due to having more bases which is the key to PvT. You are using Flash, the best player of all time as an example of Terran imba which is just stupid. perhaps he wouldn't be considered best player of all time if Terran wasn't imba. How many Bonjwa's are terran; again ?
Maps have historically favored terran I think, remember when it was longinus 2 and reverse temple for zvt and only savior could still destroy everyone. What if the maps would have been more zerg favored? Savior could have won so many titles. Anyway, I see your point about bonjwas but I think it's a weak one. I could then ask, why does taekbangleessang has TWO protosses and one terran and zerg? Why among the 4 best players during the later era of bw had 2 protoss? I think there are soooo many elements to it that it's just easy to rely on titles to evaluate races, but it's a bad argument imo, because it could have just as easily been zerg with so many titles, depending on the maps and the strength of the players (like savior). Also, as I remember, protosses didn't seem to have much trouble in proleague. But because you don't win a "title", then the average person ignore those results. I think terran players have historically been better at preparing for starleagues, so they found more success there but those are just titles (just my feeling, no data for that).
Also, in the very last kcm, terrans did VERY badly. They didn't have flash, or else they could have easily won because flash would all-kill and then people would use this as an argument for tesagi. Are we just going to ignore the putrid results of terrans in that tournament just.... because it doesn't support the argument of "tesagi"?
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On October 31 2017 22:10 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 22:01 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:57 FlaShFTW wrote:On October 31 2017 21:51 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:47 Dante08 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:30 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:21 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:
[quote]
Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one that has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map (with an army worth 2x your maxed out army) without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Well bisu had the perfect set up for the game; he did not get harrassed he had a perfect economy and was maxed. Now one can say "terran is just op" *cry*cry* different approach: 1) How good was bisus unit composition (no hts with storm; zealot/goon ratio; enough arbiters or not; shuttles ect..)? 2) How good was his decision making when to pull back and when to keep attacking? Not nearly good enough in these games imo.. He didnt flank in the game on FS; he didnt pull back early enough; then he didnt defend his two nexuses but let them die and funnily attacked a few seconds after they were dead when nothing really changed.. that can happen to an average player but should not to a pro on bisus level Dont make it sound like tvp is imba; bisu didnt play as well a he could have when it mattered. THere is PLENTY of evidence that a toss can beat a terran in late game; it is about unit composition, how good the toss engages the fight; when he pulls back and how well he can macro; I promise you that you'll never find more games where P wins in a macro game with a maxed out ground army (zeal goon ht) + arbs vs a maxed out Terran army. Just think about Terran as a race rationally, they're the ultimate defensive race and they have the strongest maxed out army (by maxed out army i mean easiest accessible army, not talking about 200/200 pure carriers, i'm taking about same tier army comps), there's no debating that. The only way to weaken Terran is by making anti Terran maps, like ASL has this season (current map pool is great for ZvT). Have you even watched competitive BW during the Kespa era? Protoss wins late game usually because of better mobility, counter attacks, recall, being able to take multiple bases and remax faster. Terran needs to keep their army together while Protoss can attack multiple locations on the map. Yes head on the Protoss army usually loses but Protoss can afford to trade inefficiently due to having more bases which is the key to PvT. You are using Flash, the best player of all time as an example of Terran imba which is just stupid. I'm talking about modern day TvP where Terran's gameplay is so refined that Protoss' shit their pants whenever they go in for a recall because their entire army could just evaporate due to mines (which is why Protoss players in general rarely recall vs 3 base Terrans anymore, they only start recalling when they take bases further away from their main). On October 31 2017 21:49 FlaShFTW wrote:
Ok, honestly, can we stop conflating FlaSh with all terrans? TT1, honestly bro, if Terran was so damn imbalanced, explain why Protoss has a winning record against Terran overall? Explain that one to me. Because at this point you're just trying to make excuses for why FlaSh is the best and it's crossed a point where now it seems like you're trying to discredit everything FlaSh has achieved and worked for to get to this point in his career to where he's untouchable. Maybe you're not trying to do that, but it seems like it and the way you talk makes it seem like it. The easiest way to gauge the strength of Terran is to just look at the ladder rankings, every player ladders, even the high end pros. the fact that you have to resort to ladder rankings is hilarious and a ridiculous reach. Does that mean that people like santorin, who is #2 ladder in League, is the best jungle in NA right now? no that would be laughable to say something like that. Ladder means nothing. Once again, you seem to be dodging the question of how Protoss have had a winning record against Terran throughout history. idk what you mean to say by "winning record throughout history". What samplesize of games are we looking at? Proleague, OSL, MSL? Question au contraire: how do you explain the number of total OSL+MSL wins combined for each race? That is because there are 4 extremely dominant terrans. once again, what if any one of them had not been terran? what if 2 of them had not been terran? you cannot use players who were freaks of nature and incredible at the game to talk about the rest of the game. If you look at solely total individuals who have won starleagues, zergs actually have the most number of different players who have won starleagues. if terran was truly op, then you would see many more terrans reaching finals and winning. that is simply not the case. 10 different terrans have won an osl/msl or both. 11 zergs have won an osl/msl or both. 9 different protoss have won an osl/msl, or both. so no, terrans do not crush either race. it is the cream of the crop that terrans do succeed at, and once again, you cannot make an argument that they only succeed due to their race.
that's nonsense. You're just claiming here that throughout the history of this game, by some coincidence, a much bigger number of the very best players *happen* to chose terran as their main race. Here is me saying if those players would've been protoss or zerg, they wouldn't have won as much. *shrug*
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Bulgaria750 Posts
I wonder if Flash or any top-end terran player is just spamming during a 200/200 vs 200/200 fight, since they certainly have their apms up in the 300s range. You have to micro your vessels so they don't die and you lose - even temporarily - vision of the insta-auto-cloaked protoss army. You try to target juking arbiters with the one of the slowest animation spells in the game. You have to position your army, control goliaths so they are more useful shooting at an arbiter or shuttle, not at zealots; you don't want 16 tanks shooting at the same group of 5 goons on one end of the front. Actually, I've always thought protoss army is more a-move prone than terran mech (not that I'm saying it should be done and protoss units are imba and it's enough to just a-move them into a triple tank line behind mines, you know). Protoss has to macro harder during these fights since the units are not as cost-effective and you drown the terran and wear them out during a series of fights, so having 20+ gates at two different locations and producing adequately from them is as important as getting most of the particular fight. So I guess protoss gameplay is more apm-taxing vs terran, but saying you don't have to micro much with a 200/200 army is disregarding the effort and talent of most high-end terran players, not just Flash. And picking fights where you can get most of them is possibly the most importand thing in the game, even more so in TvP, since winning a fight in the far corner of the map will just get you damaged and then greeted by a remaxed protoss army in two production cycles by the time you get somewhere meaningful. Flash is just the ultimate master of destroying multiple bases after winning a big battle with the death push.
It's a sad thing that a series between two masters leads to a balance discussion. One of them played better and deservedly won.
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@ cele: which could still mean that "if u play terran are a very very special player u might get more out of the race compared to playing protoss or zerg"
I mean we will never know what would have happened if flash was zerg or protoss or nada was zerg or protoss..
I dont think that there are RACIAL imbalances.
it depens on the maps mostly..
but this series is NOT telling us anything on that matter anyway
BISU MADE MANY MISTAKES in these games. P E R I O D
T___T
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On October 31 2017 22:13 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 22:10 FlaShFTW wrote:On October 31 2017 22:01 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:57 FlaShFTW wrote:On October 31 2017 21:51 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:47 Dante08 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:30 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:21 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:
[quote]
well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS.
Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one that has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map (with an army worth 2x your maxed out army) without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Well bisu had the perfect set up for the game; he did not get harrassed he had a perfect economy and was maxed. Now one can say "terran is just op" *cry*cry* different approach: 1) How good was bisus unit composition (no hts with storm; zealot/goon ratio; enough arbiters or not; shuttles ect..)? 2) How good was his decision making when to pull back and when to keep attacking? Not nearly good enough in these games imo.. He didnt flank in the game on FS; he didnt pull back early enough; then he didnt defend his two nexuses but let them die and funnily attacked a few seconds after they were dead when nothing really changed.. that can happen to an average player but should not to a pro on bisus level Dont make it sound like tvp is imba; bisu didnt play as well a he could have when it mattered. THere is PLENTY of evidence that a toss can beat a terran in late game; it is about unit composition, how good the toss engages the fight; when he pulls back and how well he can macro; I promise you that you'll never find more games where P wins in a macro game with a maxed out ground army (zeal goon ht) + arbs vs a maxed out Terran army. Just think about Terran as a race rationally, they're the ultimate defensive race and they have the strongest maxed out army (by maxed out army i mean easiest accessible army, not talking about 200/200 pure carriers, i'm taking about same tier army comps), there's no debating that. The only way to weaken Terran is by making anti Terran maps, like ASL has this season (current map pool is great for ZvT). Have you even watched competitive BW during the Kespa era? Protoss wins late game usually because of better mobility, counter attacks, recall, being able to take multiple bases and remax faster. Terran needs to keep their army together while Protoss can attack multiple locations on the map. Yes head on the Protoss army usually loses but Protoss can afford to trade inefficiently due to having more bases which is the key to PvT. You are using Flash, the best player of all time as an example of Terran imba which is just stupid. I'm talking about modern day TvP where Terran's gameplay is so refined that Protoss' shit their pants whenever they go in for a recall because their entire army could just evaporate due to mines (which is why Protoss players in general rarely recall vs 3 base Terrans anymore, they only start recalling when they take bases further away from their main). On October 31 2017 21:49 FlaShFTW wrote:
Ok, honestly, can we stop conflating FlaSh with all terrans? TT1, honestly bro, if Terran was so damn imbalanced, explain why Protoss has a winning record against Terran overall? Explain that one to me. Because at this point you're just trying to make excuses for why FlaSh is the best and it's crossed a point where now it seems like you're trying to discredit everything FlaSh has achieved and worked for to get to this point in his career to where he's untouchable. Maybe you're not trying to do that, but it seems like it and the way you talk makes it seem like it. The easiest way to gauge the strength of Terran is to just look at the ladder rankings, every player ladders, even the high end pros. the fact that you have to resort to ladder rankings is hilarious and a ridiculous reach. Does that mean that people like santorin, who is #2 ladder in League, is the best jungle in NA right now? no that would be laughable to say something like that. Ladder means nothing. Once again, you seem to be dodging the question of how Protoss have had a winning record against Terran throughout history. idk what you mean to say by "winning record throughout history". What samplesize of games are we looking at? Proleague, OSL, MSL? Question au contraire: how do you explain the number of total OSL+MSL wins combined for each race? That is because there are 4 extremely dominant terrans. once again, what if any one of them had not been terran? what if 2 of them had not been terran? you cannot use players who were freaks of nature and incredible at the game to talk about the rest of the game. If you look at solely total individuals who have won starleagues, zergs actually have the most number of different players who have won starleagues. if terran was truly op, then you would see many more terrans reaching finals and winning. that is simply not the case. 10 different terrans have won an osl/msl or both. 11 zergs have won an osl/msl or both. 9 different protoss have won an osl/msl, or both. so no, terrans do not crush either race. it is the cream of the crop that terrans do succeed at, and once again, you cannot make an argument that they only succeed due to their race. that's nonsense. You're just claiming here that throughout the history of this game, by some coincidence, a much bigger number of the very best players *happen* to chose terran as their main race. Here is me saying if those players would've been protoss or zerg, they wouldn't have won as much. *shrug*
It's a very possible coincidence for a game with a history of just 20 years. There are many factors. But we are not talking about a 100 years history here. What if in the next 20 years zergs have more success (after flash retires that would be VERY possible), then are we going to futilely argue once AGAIN because of a very specific data that is the number of titles? What about all of the zergs who go very far every tournament RIGHT NOW?
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On October 31 2017 22:13 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 22:10 FlaShFTW wrote:On October 31 2017 22:01 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:57 FlaShFTW wrote:On October 31 2017 21:51 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:47 Dante08 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:30 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:21 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:
[quote]
well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS.
Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one that has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map (with an army worth 2x your maxed out army) without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Well bisu had the perfect set up for the game; he did not get harrassed he had a perfect economy and was maxed. Now one can say "terran is just op" *cry*cry* different approach: 1) How good was bisus unit composition (no hts with storm; zealot/goon ratio; enough arbiters or not; shuttles ect..)? 2) How good was his decision making when to pull back and when to keep attacking? Not nearly good enough in these games imo.. He didnt flank in the game on FS; he didnt pull back early enough; then he didnt defend his two nexuses but let them die and funnily attacked a few seconds after they were dead when nothing really changed.. that can happen to an average player but should not to a pro on bisus level Dont make it sound like tvp is imba; bisu didnt play as well a he could have when it mattered. THere is PLENTY of evidence that a toss can beat a terran in late game; it is about unit composition, how good the toss engages the fight; when he pulls back and how well he can macro; I promise you that you'll never find more games where P wins in a macro game with a maxed out ground army (zeal goon ht) + arbs vs a maxed out Terran army. Just think about Terran as a race rationally, they're the ultimate defensive race and they have the strongest maxed out army (by maxed out army i mean easiest accessible army, not talking about 200/200 pure carriers, i'm taking about same tier army comps), there's no debating that. The only way to weaken Terran is by making anti Terran maps, like ASL has this season (current map pool is great for ZvT). Have you even watched competitive BW during the Kespa era? Protoss wins late game usually because of better mobility, counter attacks, recall, being able to take multiple bases and remax faster. Terran needs to keep their army together while Protoss can attack multiple locations on the map. Yes head on the Protoss army usually loses but Protoss can afford to trade inefficiently due to having more bases which is the key to PvT. You are using Flash, the best player of all time as an example of Terran imba which is just stupid. I'm talking about modern day TvP where Terran's gameplay is so refined that Protoss' shit their pants whenever they go in for a recall because their entire army could just evaporate due to mines (which is why Protoss players in general rarely recall vs 3 base Terrans anymore, they only start recalling when they take bases further away from their main). On October 31 2017 21:49 FlaShFTW wrote:
Ok, honestly, can we stop conflating FlaSh with all terrans? TT1, honestly bro, if Terran was so damn imbalanced, explain why Protoss has a winning record against Terran overall? Explain that one to me. Because at this point you're just trying to make excuses for why FlaSh is the best and it's crossed a point where now it seems like you're trying to discredit everything FlaSh has achieved and worked for to get to this point in his career to where he's untouchable. Maybe you're not trying to do that, but it seems like it and the way you talk makes it seem like it. The easiest way to gauge the strength of Terran is to just look at the ladder rankings, every player ladders, even the high end pros. the fact that you have to resort to ladder rankings is hilarious and a ridiculous reach. Does that mean that people like santorin, who is #2 ladder in League, is the best jungle in NA right now? no that would be laughable to say something like that. Ladder means nothing. Once again, you seem to be dodging the question of how Protoss have had a winning record against Terran throughout history. idk what you mean to say by "winning record throughout history". What samplesize of games are we looking at? Proleague, OSL, MSL? Question au contraire: how do you explain the number of total OSL+MSL wins combined for each race? That is because there are 4 extremely dominant terrans. once again, what if any one of them had not been terran? what if 2 of them had not been terran? you cannot use players who were freaks of nature and incredible at the game to talk about the rest of the game. If you look at solely total individuals who have won starleagues, zergs actually have the most number of different players who have won starleagues. if terran was truly op, then you would see many more terrans reaching finals and winning. that is simply not the case. 10 different terrans have won an osl/msl or both. 11 zergs have won an osl/msl or both. 9 different protoss have won an osl/msl, or both. so no, terrans do not crush either race. it is the cream of the crop that terrans do succeed at, and once again, you cannot make an argument that they only succeed due to their race. that's nonsense. You're just claiming here that throughout the history of this game, by some coincidence, a much bigger number of the very best players *happen* to chose terran as their main race. Here is me saying if those players would've been protoss or zerg, they wouldn't have won as much. *shrug*
It''s not called coincidence, he's called SlayerS.Boxer and he was ridiculously popular back in the day so people started playing terran to imitate him.
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