EPT[ASL4] Ro4 Flash vs Bisu - Page 40
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
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niteReloaded
Croatia5282 Posts
I didn't watch his stream, or am not aware if he has streamed lately? | ||
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KameZerg
Sweden1777 Posts
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disciple
9071 Posts
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote: Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one that has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map (with an army worth 2x your maxed out army) without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Well bisu had the perfect set up for the game; he did not get harrassed he had a perfect economy and was maxed. Now one can say "terran is just op" *cry*cry* different approach: 1) How good was bisus unit composition (no hts with storm; zealot/goon ratio; enough arbiters or not; shuttles ect..)? 2) How good was his decision making when to pull back and when to keep attacking? Not nearly good enough in these games imo.. He didnt flank in the game on FS; he didnt pull back early enough; then he didnt defend his two nexuses but let them die and funnily attacked a few seconds after they were dead when nothing really changed.. that can happen to an average player but should not to a pro on bisus level Dont make it sound like tvp is imba; bisu didnt play as well a he could have when it mattered. THere is PLENTY of evidence that a toss can beat a terran in late game; it is about unit composition, how good the toss engages the fight; when he pulls back and how well he can macro; | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
On October 31 2017 21:17 FlaShFTW wrote: You could recall to trade portions of the army earlier, but Bisu was scared since the goliaths of flash damaged his arbiter pretty hard and so any recall bisu felt would not work since he would immediately recall behind turrets and he probably expected flash to have mines directly behind. if he couldve gotten an arbiter at full health to the center of flash's main to recall, perhaps he would have been more confident to pull the trigger and recall. I agree he cant push into flash until flash tried to move across the bridge into a choke. Idk Bisu decision making was really confusing, when he reached 5 base i thought he will make 30 gates and will just keep flash at bay by trading units when he tries to push out, solidifying his map control and expo advantage. He couldve just sandwitched terran from both sides as he goes out of the natural and continue attack from 2 sides with his 2 main base gates reinforcements. I was confused to see bisu just throwing his army leting flash roll over him and no units come out of the 11 oclock main, it was a standart play he could not handle properly, it just doesnt make sense. And im not positive about protoss need to be agressive at all costs, 6 vs 3 bases do you really need to throw your advantage away rather than supporting it? | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4192 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On October 31 2017 21:20 niteReloaded wrote: 'wild' theory: bisu has mostly been practicing PvZ, seeing that as the easier chance to get the moniez (at blizzcon in 1 bo5 in his best matchup) I didn't watch his stream, or am not aware if he has streamed lately? honestly, it's a good possibility lol. 25k at blizzcon in one series over having to beat the GOAT and a weaker ZvP specialist. 25k sounds easier to win  | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10570 Posts
On October 31 2017 21:20 d(O.o)a wrote: Watch how flash positions his army, he has lines of siege tanks and he scans before fights, "just storm his army" isn't so simple, he WILL snipe your templar with his tanks and vultures, he'll emp them, he'll continue to spread his tanks as he does, it's hard enough for bisu to even get a flying unit that moves faster in to stasis let alone slow ass templars. you use shuttles to bring templars in to avoid them getting empd and to allow them to move around faster. most late game PvT maxed situations will have templars in the shuttles. | ||
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Piste
6184 Posts
On October 31 2017 21:22 BigFan wrote: honestly, it's a good possibility lol. 25k at blizzcon in one series over having to beat the GOAT and a weaker ZvP specialist. 25k sounds easier to win Yes this must be the case! Thank you bringing up the truth  | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4192 Posts
On October 31 2017 21:13 TT1 wrote: We're not talking about you or me tho, we're talking about high end progamer T's. Lol you are just being sour, this is Flash you are talking about he makes it look so easy. Have you watched Best Rain Stork etc. roll Terrans before? | ||
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TT1
Canada10095 Posts
On October 31 2017 21:21 MaGic~PhiL wrote: Well bisu had the perfect set up for the game; he did not get harrassed he had a perfect economy and was maxed. Now one can say "terran is just op" *cry*cry* different approach: 1) How good was bisus unit composition (no hts with storm; zealot/goon ratio; enough arbiters or not; shuttles ect..)? 2) How good was his decision making when to pull back and when to keep attacking? Not nearly good enough in these games imo.. He didnt flank in the game on FS; he didnt pull back early enough; then he didnt defend his two nexuses but let them die and funnily attacked a few seconds after they were dead when nothing really changed.. that can happen to an average player but should not to a pro on bisus level Dont make it sound like tvp is imba; bisu didnt play as well a he could have when it mattered. THere is PLENTY of evidence that a toss can beat a terran in late game; it is about unit composition, how good the toss engages the fight; when he pulls back and how well he can macro; I promise you that you'll never find more games where P wins in a macro game with a maxed out ground army (zeal goon ht) + arbs vs a maxed out Terran army. Just think about Terran as a race rationally, they're the ultimate defensive race and they have the strongest maxed out army (by maxed out army i mean the most accessible army comp, not talking about 200/200 pure carriers, i'm taking about same tier army comps), there's no debating that. The only way to weaken Terran is by making anti Terran maps, like ASL has this season (current map pool is great for ZvT). | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
On October 31 2017 21:27 FlaShFTW wrote: you use shuttles to bring templars in to avoid them getting empd and to allow them to move around faster. most late game PvT maxed situations will have templars in the shuttles. Which still have the exact same problem, if you're shuttling them in you have to drop them, press storm and target the area/unit you want to storm, meanwhile all flash has to do to counter it is target the shuttle with a goliath or two, have mines up, or tanks in the backline that haven't fired yet that autotarget the templar, or target the templar with vultures as they drop, and there's a small window before the shuttle dies to goliaths. It's really not as simple as you guys are making it out to be, impossible? no of course not but the way flash is playing don't be surprised if he deletes the templar before you can get meaningful storms off. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10570 Posts
On October 31 2017 21:30 d(O.o)a wrote: Which still have the exact same problem, if you're shuttling them in you have to drop them, press storm and target the area/unit you want to storm, meanwhile all flash has to do to counter it is target the shuttle with a goliath or two, have mines up, or tanks in the backline that haven't fired yet that autotarget the templar, or target the templar with vultures as they drop, and there's a small window before the shuttle dies to goliaths. It's really not as simple as you guys are making it out to be, impossible? no of course not but the way flash is playing don't be surprised if he deletes the templar before you can get meaningful storms off. you're also assuming this is the worst case scenario for protoss while the best case scenario for terran. they wont auto target the templar beacuse they'll be auto targetting the goons and zealots. you dont unload templar before your units, you wait until the armies have clashed to do it. is it more micro? yes. but im willing to put in the extra micro to make sure i have an army that can actually stand up to 200/200 which protosses like jangbi and stork in his prime have shown he can do. this is not something that is impossible nor even overly difficult as you make it out to be. once again, there's a reason protoss is favored against terran. this is flash we're talking about, not the average terran. people just want to bitch at terran when in reality they should only be bitching about flash. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On October 31 2017 21:30 d(O.o)a wrote: Which still have the exact same problem, if you're shuttling them in you have to drop them, press storm and target the area/unit you want to storm, meanwhile all flash has to do to counter it is target the shuttle with a goliath or two, have mines up, or tanks in the backline that haven't fired yet that autotarget the templar, or target the templar with vultures as they drop, and there's a small window before the shuttle dies to goliaths. It's really not as simple as you guys are making it out to be, impossible? no of course not but the way flash is playing don't be surprised if he deletes the templar before you can get meaningful storms off. or you move in with two shuttles and drop zealots first so the tanks auto-target them. Honestly, it may not be simple but it's worked plenty of times in the past. Bisu just doesn't like to storm for whatever reason and as letmelose mentioned earlier, his army control late game is pretty bad. Result isn't the most surprising tbh, was personally just hoping that Bisu ends Flash's final appearance because people will use anything to balance whining. | ||
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On October 31 2017 21:13 TT1 wrote: We're not talking about you or me tho, we're talking about high end progamer T's. But only Flash wins, all other terrans are pretty bad tbh. Even Last got dismantled by a freaking out of form Stork last season. I think people just fail to realize how above everyone else Flash is. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10570 Posts
On October 31 2017 21:35 BigFan wrote: or you move in with two shuttles and drop zealots first so the tanks auto-target them. Honestly, it may not be simple but it's worked plenty of times in the past. Bisu just doesn't like to storm for whatever reason and as letmelose mentioned earlier, his army control late game is pretty bad. Result isn't the most surprising tbh, was personally just hoping that Bisu ends Flash's final appearance because people will use anything to balance whining. yes bisu's army control has always been shakey. his zealot attacks are still pretty bad when they stuck on his goons and hes not moving them in separated. | ||
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TT1
Canada10095 Posts
On October 31 2017 21:36 Essbee wrote: But only Flash wins, all other terrans are pretty bad tbh. Even Last got dismantled by a freaking out of form Stork last season. I think people just fail to realize how above everyone else Flash is. Thank you for your 1 game sample size. Last and Stork also lost to sSak in the same group, is sSak a better Terran than Last? | ||
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Levque
88 Posts
I don't doubt Flash's skill, I don't think a Terran nerf would all of sudden make Flash a scrub. But there is no doubt in my mind, tank upgrades scale way too well and vultures cost way too little and fixing this would improve the game. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On October 31 2017 21:36 Essbee wrote: But only Flash wins, all other terrans are pretty bad tbh. Even Last got dismantled by a freaking out of form Stork last season. I think people just fail to realize how above everyone else Flash is. pretty much. Last who was considered to be the second top tier terran got eliminated by Stork of all people. Stork barely even practices yet he beat a player that's known as Alphago and has top tier macro etc... It has nothing to do with the race, they all have their inherent advantages and weaknesses. It's all to do with Flash being above everyone else by a long shot. It's like he said in the interview, he just keeps practicing and it's true. | ||
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