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On October 31 2017 21:37 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:36 Essbee wrote:On October 31 2017 21:13 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:12 LG)Sabbath wrote:On October 31 2017 21:08 Levque wrote:On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Tesagi deniers will never understand this or choose not to. This is hilariously hard to do, Flash just makes it look easy. I can 200/200 in <13 min vs the computer like Flash, yet I cannot beat average protoss players. We're not talking about you or me tho, we're talking about high end progamer T's. But only Flash wins, all other terrans are pretty bad tbh. Even Last got dismantled by a freaking out of form Stork last season. I think people just fail to realize how above everyone else Flash is. Thank you for your 1 game sample size.
Hmmm if you followed them streaming and the ASL you would 100% understand what I mean. That was just an example, there are way more games similar to what I've just explained than the opposite.
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On October 31 2017 21:39 Essbee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:37 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:36 Essbee wrote:On October 31 2017 21:13 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:12 LG)Sabbath wrote:On October 31 2017 21:08 Levque wrote:On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Tesagi deniers will never understand this or choose not to. This is hilariously hard to do, Flash just makes it look easy. I can 200/200 in <13 min vs the computer like Flash, yet I cannot beat average protoss players. We're not talking about you or me tho, we're talking about high end progamer T's. But only Flash wins, all other terrans are pretty bad tbh. Even Last got dismantled by a freaking out of form Stork last season. I think people just fail to realize how above everyone else Flash is. Thank you for your 1 game sample size. Hmmm if you followed them streaming and the ASL you would 100% understand what I mean. That was just an example, there are way more games similar to what I've just explained than the opposite.
Another great argument, you making an assumption that you watch more BW than me. I don't understand what you mean, what do you mean? I'm making an argument based on sample size, you're making an argument based on 1 match.
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On October 31 2017 21:30 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:21 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one that has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map (with an army worth 2x your maxed out army) without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Well bisu had the perfect set up for the game; he did not get harrassed he had a perfect economy and was maxed. Now one can say "terran is just op" *cry*cry* different approach: 1) How good was bisus unit composition (no hts with storm; zealot/goon ratio; enough arbiters or not; shuttles ect..)? 2) How good was his decision making when to pull back and when to keep attacking? Not nearly good enough in these games imo.. He didnt flank in the game on FS; he didnt pull back early enough; then he didnt defend his two nexuses but let them die and funnily attacked a few seconds after they were dead when nothing really changed.. that can happen to an average player but should not to a pro on bisus level Dont make it sound like tvp is imba; bisu didnt play as well a he could have when it mattered. THere is PLENTY of evidence that a toss can beat a terran in late game; it is about unit composition, how good the toss engages the fight; when he pulls back and how well he can macro; I promise you that you'll never find more games where P wins in a macro game with a maxed out ground army (zeal goon ht) + arbs vs a maxed out Terran army. Just think about Terran as a race rationally, they're the ultimate defensive race and they have the strongest maxed out army, there's no debating that. The only way to weaken Terran is by making anti Terran maps, like ASL has this season (current map pool is great for ZvT).
the protoss never (almost) wins one big fight; but if he is good and succesfull (which he certainly can be) what happens is: he loses every fight but the terran loses a substantial amount of units in every fight and the toss can finally stabilize due to producing out of ~20-25 gateways.
bisu had this set up perfectly in the game on FS
do u disagree with those statements:
1) Bisus unit composition was not as good as it could have been (lack of hts and storm; shuttle with hts even better)
2) Bisus decision when, how, where and for how long to attack was bad
3) Bisus stasises were definitely not good (too far in front, stasised own units)
4) Bisus decision to let his two last nexuses (at the top of the map) die when he could have defended them (which he showed he could because he did so 5-10 seconds after the nexuses went down -_-)
now if u agree with these statements.. u agree that it was at least (!!!) not only the fact that 200/200 mech is so strong that bisu lost this particular game but a LOT of other things on behalf of bisu..
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On October 31 2017 21:38 Levque wrote:
Of course protoss has the tools to kill a 200/200 mech army, we've all seen it hundreds of times. It's just the amount of effort and almost PERFECT play required to do this is an absurd requirement compared to what Terran needs to do to get that mech army.
I don't doubt Flash's skill, I don't think a Terran nerf would all of sudden make Flash a scrub.
But there is no doubt in my mind, tank upgrades scale way too well and vultures cost way too little and fixing this would improve the game.
The bolded is very true, protoss have a ton of tools but they are difficult to use, I agree. Still no excuse for bisu to make zero high templars for FOUR games.
If you nerf terran, you would never see a single terran going far in tournaments, especially if flash is in the army. It would be zerg titles after zerg titles. There are so many zergs going far every time, but because flash keeps winning, people complain about terran (also tvz is easier). Don't be so short-sighted.
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On October 31 2017 21:36 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:35 BigFan wrote:On October 31 2017 21:30 d(O.o)a wrote:On October 31 2017 21:27 FlaShFTW wrote:On October 31 2017 21:20 d(O.o)a wrote:
Watch how flash positions his army, he has lines of siege tanks and he scans before fights, "just storm his army" isn't so simple, he WILL snipe your templar with his tanks and vultures, he'll emp them, he'll continue to spread his tanks as he does, it's hard enough for bisu to even get a flying unit that moves faster in to stasis let alone slow ass templars. you use shuttles to bring templars in to avoid them getting empd and to allow them to move around faster. most late game PvT maxed situations will have templars in the shuttles. Which still have the exact same problem, if you're shuttling them in you have to drop them, press storm and target the area/unit you want to storm, meanwhile all flash has to do to counter it is target the shuttle with a goliath or two, have mines up, or tanks in the backline that haven't fired yet that autotarget the templar, or target the templar with vultures as they drop, and there's a small window before the shuttle dies to goliaths. It's really not as simple as you guys are making it out to be, impossible? no of course not but the way flash is playing don't be surprised if he deletes the templar before you can get meaningful storms off. or you move in with two shuttles and drop zealots first so the tanks auto-target them. Honestly, it may not be simple but it's worked plenty of times in the past. Bisu just doesn't like to storm for whatever reason and as letmelose mentioned earlier, his army control late game is pretty bad. Result isn't the most surprising tbh, was personally just hoping that Bisu ends Flash's final appearance because people will use anything to balance whining. yes bisu's army control has always been shakey. his zealot attacks are still pretty bad when they stuck on his goons and hes not moving them in separated.
Thats why Jangbi is number 1 PvTer. His shuttle play is unmatched, whether its with zealot, reaver or high templar and there is no other protoss who can handle late game large scale battles like him. Only Best come close to the second.
There is something other i just get a glimpse of.
I need to watch the game again but Bisu might be overextending himself with so many expansions really. He didnt have the second clump of gateways in time or he didnt have the money to pump from there when flash goes out, because he didnt get any units from the other main to reinforce. Maybe he had to invest too much in nexus,probes and canons. Earlier second gateway clump and 2 startports for double the arbiter count wouldve been better in that case.
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On October 31 2017 21:17 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:14 Cryoc wrote:On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one that has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map (with an army worth 2x your maxed out army) without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Yeah, watch as a Terran army sieges 3s too late and their army magically disappears. That's not a micro mistake that's a newb mistake, again i'm talking about high-end progamer T's. Being able to scan ahead of your army is a given, when have you seen a progamer T siege his tanks late in a 200/200 fight vs P? All terran has to do is scan, siege/unsiege and EMP, once you hit 200/200 you don't even need to plant mines to fight P's army (mines become extremely effective once you secure a good position and you can cut off reinforcing units from other bases with them). Odds of making a micro mistake is extremely low given how little you need to do to manage your army and the strength of it. The biggest mistake T can make is getting caught off guard and getting a lot of their vessels stasis'd while they're unsieged. Obviously that's an instant loss but that has nothing to do with micro, it's more of a multitask mistake.
Ah, I see, so there is no micro at progamer level. The units just move on its own. Good logic. Makes certainly sense coming from a Protoss player.
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On October 31 2017 21:30 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:21 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one that has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map (with an army worth 2x your maxed out army) without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Well bisu had the perfect set up for the game; he did not get harrassed he had a perfect economy and was maxed. Now one can say "terran is just op" *cry*cry* different approach: 1) How good was bisus unit composition (no hts with storm; zealot/goon ratio; enough arbiters or not; shuttles ect..)? 2) How good was his decision making when to pull back and when to keep attacking? Not nearly good enough in these games imo.. He didnt flank in the game on FS; he didnt pull back early enough; then he didnt defend his two nexuses but let them die and funnily attacked a few seconds after they were dead when nothing really changed.. that can happen to an average player but should not to a pro on bisus level Dont make it sound like tvp is imba; bisu didnt play as well a he could have when it mattered. THere is PLENTY of evidence that a toss can beat a terran in late game; it is about unit composition, how good the toss engages the fight; when he pulls back and how well he can macro; I promise you that you'll never find more games where P wins in a macro game with a maxed out ground army (zeal goon ht) + arbs vs a maxed out Terran army. Just think about Terran as a race rationally, they're the ultimate defensive race and they have the strongest maxed out army (by maxed out army i mean the most accessible army comp, not talking about 200/200 pure carriers, i'm taking about same tier army comps), there's no debating that. The only way to weaken Terran is by making anti Terran maps, like ASL has this season (current map pool is great for ZvT).
Balance has always been about maps in BW. There were OSL seasons with almost no terrans due to maps. Same for other races.
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On October 31 2017 21:40 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:39 Essbee wrote:On October 31 2017 21:37 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:36 Essbee wrote:On October 31 2017 21:13 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:12 LG)Sabbath wrote:On October 31 2017 21:08 Levque wrote:On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:
[quote]
Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Tesagi deniers will never understand this or choose not to. This is hilariously hard to do, Flash just makes it look easy. I can 200/200 in <13 min vs the computer like Flash, yet I cannot beat average protoss players. We're not talking about you or me tho, we're talking about high end progamer T's. But only Flash wins, all other terrans are pretty bad tbh. Even Last got dismantled by a freaking out of form Stork last season. I think people just fail to realize how above everyone else Flash is. Thank you for your 1 game sample size. Hmmm if you followed them streaming and the ASL you would 100% understand what I mean. That was just an example, there are way more games similar to what I've just explained than the opposite. Another great argument, you making an assumption that you watch more BW than me. I don't understand what you mean, what do you mean? I'm making an argument based on sample size, you're making an argument based on 1 match.
I don't understand why you say this, I am not even giving arguments lol. Just saying that terrans are pretty bad outside of flash. I'm not trying to prove anything, that's just how it is, good for you if you don't believe me I guess?
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On October 31 2017 21:42 Cryoc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:17 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:14 Cryoc wrote:On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one that has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map (with an army worth 2x your maxed out army) without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Yeah, watch as a Terran army sieges 3s too late and their army magically disappears. That's not a micro mistake that's a newb mistake, again i'm talking about high-end progamer T's. Being able to scan ahead of your army is a given, when have you seen a progamer T siege his tanks late in a 200/200 fight vs P? All terran has to do is scan, siege/unsiege and EMP, once you hit 200/200 you don't even need to plant mines to fight P's army (mines become extremely effective once you secure a good position and you can cut off reinforcing units from other bases with them). Odds of making a micro mistake is extremely low given how little you need to do to manage your army and the strength of it. The biggest mistake T can make is getting caught off guard and getting a lot of their vessels stasis'd while they're unsieged. Obviously that's an instant loss but that has nothing to do with micro, it's more of a multitask mistake. Ah, I see, so there is no micro at progamer level. The units just move on its own. Good logic. Makes certainly sense coming from a Protoss player.
Please tell me what micro mistake can Terran make in a 200 vs 200 fight and how often have you seen it happen.
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On October 31 2017 21:03 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:01 Essbee wrote:
I wish flash would play protoss to show them how it's done. I'm pretty sure he would USE high templars instead of morphing them into archons (wtf?) yeah... protoss these days just dont use storms for whatever reason... storms are one of the only ways to break 200/200 terran mech when they siege up without like 10 stasis. We need jangbi back to show toss how it's done and honestly I want Jangbi to play FlaSh and dismantle him with storms. The same way that I feel like Zergs in ZvP need to do more muta timing switches to snipe HTs. I hardly see zergs do that these days as well.
Stork showed how it's done just this season.
DT's harassing here and there, massive storm drops, and stasis + storm in late game engagements.
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On October 31 2017 21:35 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:30 d(O.o)a wrote:On October 31 2017 21:27 FlaShFTW wrote:On October 31 2017 21:20 d(O.o)a wrote:
Watch how flash positions his army, he has lines of siege tanks and he scans before fights, "just storm his army" isn't so simple, he WILL snipe your templar with his tanks and vultures, he'll emp them, he'll continue to spread his tanks as he does, it's hard enough for bisu to even get a flying unit that moves faster in to stasis let alone slow ass templars. you use shuttles to bring templars in to avoid them getting empd and to allow them to move around faster. most late game PvT maxed situations will have templars in the shuttles. Which still have the exact same problem, if you're shuttling them in you have to drop them, press storm and target the area/unit you want to storm, meanwhile all flash has to do to counter it is target the shuttle with a goliath or two, have mines up, or tanks in the backline that haven't fired yet that autotarget the templar, or target the templar with vultures as they drop, and there's a small window before the shuttle dies to goliaths. It's really not as simple as you guys are making it out to be, impossible? no of course not but the way flash is playing don't be surprised if he deletes the templar before you can get meaningful storms off. you're also assuming this is the worst case scenario for protoss while the best case scenario for terran. they wont auto target the templar beacuse they'll be auto targetting the goons and zealots. you dont unload templar before your units, you wait until the armies have clashed to do it. is it more micro? yes. but im willing to put in the extra micro to make sure i have an army that can actually stand up to 200/200 which protosses like jangbi and stork in his prime have shown he can do. this is not something that is impossible nor even overly difficult as you make it out to be. once again, there's a reason protoss is favored against terran. this is flash we're talking about, not the average terran. people just want to bitch at terran when in reality they should only be bitching about flash.
I'm specifically talking about flash, I've even mentioned him in every post in this quote thread. Flash's play looks even better than it did when any of the PvT specialists were in their prime, so regaling in how amazing they were back then is quite irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. Bisu isn't stupid, he's also a PvZ specialist which is a matchup where storms are necessary, it's not like he's unaware of the ability, he just doesn't consider it worth it in the current state of PvF.
Making templar doesn't automatically guarantee your army can stand up to his either, IF you manage to get the meaty storms maybe it makes a difference, but if not that's gas that could've been spent on arbiters, goons, upgrades, etc.
On October 31 2017 21:35 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:30 d(O.o)a wrote:On October 31 2017 21:27 FlaShFTW wrote:On October 31 2017 21:20 d(O.o)a wrote:
Watch how flash positions his army, he has lines of siege tanks and he scans before fights, "just storm his army" isn't so simple, he WILL snipe your templar with his tanks and vultures, he'll emp them, he'll continue to spread his tanks as he does, it's hard enough for bisu to even get a flying unit that moves faster in to stasis let alone slow ass templars. you use shuttles to bring templars in to avoid them getting empd and to allow them to move around faster. most late game PvT maxed situations will have templars in the shuttles. Which still have the exact same problem, if you're shuttling them in you have to drop them, press storm and target the area/unit you want to storm, meanwhile all flash has to do to counter it is target the shuttle with a goliath or two, have mines up, or tanks in the backline that haven't fired yet that autotarget the templar, or target the templar with vultures as they drop, and there's a small window before the shuttle dies to goliaths. It's really not as simple as you guys are making it out to be, impossible? no of course not but the way flash is playing don't be surprised if he deletes the templar before you can get meaningful storms off. or you move in with two shuttles and drop zealots first so the tanks auto-target them. Honestly, it may not be simple but it's worked plenty of times in the past. Bisu just doesn't like to storm for whatever reason and as letmelose mentioned earlier, his army control late game is pretty bad. Result isn't the most surprising tbh, was personally just hoping that Bisu ends Flash's final appearance because people will use anything to balance whining.
Seems like you're both projecting the other commentator's tesagi comments on me, I'm explicitly talking about flash. I even mention how he's just not on the same level as other players atm.
You fly in with 2 shuttles dropping zealots and templar (which doesn't happen instantly) and flash snipes them with his goliaths, now what? or he uses 4 vultures to 1-shot your templar the moment it gets out, again now what? Meanwhile your army has melted even faster because it's now even smaller due to the incorporation of storm, templars and shuttles with zealots
Like I said it's not as cut and dry as people make it out to be, flash is beyond godlike right now, none of his series look close in any way. Everyone he plays just looks like a complete noob getting the smackdown.
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On October 31 2017 21:45 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:42 Cryoc wrote:On October 31 2017 21:17 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:14 Cryoc wrote:On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one that has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map (with an army worth 2x your maxed out army) without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Yeah, watch as a Terran army sieges 3s too late and their army magically disappears. That's not a micro mistake that's a newb mistake, again i'm talking about high-end progamer T's. Being able to scan ahead of your army is a given, when have you seen a progamer T siege his tanks late in a 200/200 fight vs P? All terran has to do is scan, siege/unsiege and EMP, once you hit 200/200 you don't even need to plant mines to fight P's army (mines become extremely effective once you secure a good position and you can cut off reinforcing units from other bases with them). Odds of making a micro mistake is extremely low given how little you need to do to manage your army and the strength of it. The biggest mistake T can make is getting caught off guard and getting a lot of their vessels stasis'd while they're unsieged. Obviously that's an instant loss but that has nothing to do with micro, it's more of a multitask mistake. Ah, I see, so there is no micro at progamer level. The units just move on its own. Good logic. Makes certainly sense coming from a Protoss player. Please tell me what micro mistake can Terran make in a 200 vs 200 fight and how often have you seen it happen.
Not saying you are wrong, cause you are right, but the tools that protoss has make it possible for the protoss to win a fight, just very difficult to do I am well aware of that. I guess for terran the hardest thing is to emp properly for recalls and stasis, but yeah the rest of the army is easy, as are zealots and dragoons. The hard part are high templars, arbiters, carriers, shuttles... which is why protoss has that huge potential vs terran but it's hard to pull off.
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On October 31 2017 21:30 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:21 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one that has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map (with an army worth 2x your maxed out army) without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Well bisu had the perfect set up for the game; he did not get harrassed he had a perfect economy and was maxed. Now one can say "terran is just op" *cry*cry* different approach: 1) How good was bisus unit composition (no hts with storm; zealot/goon ratio; enough arbiters or not; shuttles ect..)? 2) How good was his decision making when to pull back and when to keep attacking? Not nearly good enough in these games imo.. He didnt flank in the game on FS; he didnt pull back early enough; then he didnt defend his two nexuses but let them die and funnily attacked a few seconds after they were dead when nothing really changed.. that can happen to an average player but should not to a pro on bisus level Dont make it sound like tvp is imba; bisu didnt play as well a he could have when it mattered. THere is PLENTY of evidence that a toss can beat a terran in late game; it is about unit composition, how good the toss engages the fight; when he pulls back and how well he can macro; I promise you that you'll never find more games where P wins in a macro game with a maxed out ground army (zeal goon ht) + arbs vs a maxed out Terran army. Just think about Terran as a race rationally, they're the ultimate defensive race and they have the strongest maxed out army (by maxed out army i mean easiest accessible army, not talking about 200/200 pure carriers, i'm taking about same tier army comps), there's no debating that. The only way to weaken Terran is by making anti Terran maps, like ASL has this season (current map pool is great for ZvT).
Have you even watched competitive BW during the Kespa era? Protoss wins late game usually because of better mobility, counter attacks, recall, being able to take multiple bases and remax faster. Terran needs to keep their army together while Protoss can attack multiple locations on the map. Yes head on the Protoss army usually loses but Protoss can afford to trade inefficiently due to having more bases which is the key to PvT.
You are using Flash, the best player of all time as an example of Terran imba which is just stupid.
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United States10097 Posts
Ok, honestly, can we stop conflating FlaSh with all terrans? TT1, honestly bro, if Terran was so damn imbalanced, explain why Protoss has a winning record against Terran overall? Explain that one to me. Because at this point you're just trying to make excuses for why FlaSh is the best and it's crossed a point where now it seems like you're trying to discredit everything FlaSh has achieved and worked for to get to this point in his career to where he's untouchable. Maybe you're not trying to do that, but it seems like it and the way you talk makes it seem like it.
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On October 31 2017 21:47 Dante08 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:30 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:21 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one that has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map (with an army worth 2x your maxed out army) without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Well bisu had the perfect set up for the game; he did not get harrassed he had a perfect economy and was maxed. Now one can say "terran is just op" *cry*cry* different approach: 1) How good was bisus unit composition (no hts with storm; zealot/goon ratio; enough arbiters or not; shuttles ect..)? 2) How good was his decision making when to pull back and when to keep attacking? Not nearly good enough in these games imo.. He didnt flank in the game on FS; he didnt pull back early enough; then he didnt defend his two nexuses but let them die and funnily attacked a few seconds after they were dead when nothing really changed.. that can happen to an average player but should not to a pro on bisus level Dont make it sound like tvp is imba; bisu didnt play as well a he could have when it mattered. THere is PLENTY of evidence that a toss can beat a terran in late game; it is about unit composition, how good the toss engages the fight; when he pulls back and how well he can macro; I promise you that you'll never find more games where P wins in a macro game with a maxed out ground army (zeal goon ht) + arbs vs a maxed out Terran army. Just think about Terran as a race rationally, they're the ultimate defensive race and they have the strongest maxed out army (by maxed out army i mean easiest accessible army, not talking about 200/200 pure carriers, i'm taking about same tier army comps), there's no debating that. The only way to weaken Terran is by making anti Terran maps, like ASL has this season (current map pool is great for ZvT). Have you even watched competitive BW during the Kespa era? Protoss wins late game usually because of better mobility, counter attacks, recall, being able to take multiple bases and remax faster. Terran needs to keep their army together while Protoss can attack multiple locations on the map. Yes head on the Protoss army usually loses but Protoss can afford to trade inefficiently due to having more bases which is the key to PvT. You are using Flash, the best player of all time as an example of Terran imba which is just stupid.
I'm talking about modern day TvP where Terran's gameplay is so refined that Protoss' shit their pants whenever they go in for a recall because their entire army could just evaporate due to mines (which is why Protoss players in general rarely recall vs 3 base Terrans anymore, they only start recalling when they take bases further away from their main).
On October 31 2017 21:49 FlaShFTW wrote:
Ok, honestly, can we stop conflating FlaSh with all terrans? TT1, honestly bro, if Terran was so damn imbalanced, explain why Protoss has a winning record against Terran overall? Explain that one to me. Because at this point you're just trying to make excuses for why FlaSh is the best and it's crossed a point where now it seems like you're trying to discredit everything FlaSh has achieved and worked for to get to this point in his career to where he's untouchable. Maybe you're not trying to do that, but it seems like it and the way you talk makes it seem like it.
The easiest way to gauge the strength of Terran is to just look at the ladder rankings, every player ladders, even the high end pros.
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United States10097 Posts
On October 31 2017 21:46 d(O.o)a wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:35 FlaShFTW wrote:On October 31 2017 21:30 d(O.o)a wrote:On October 31 2017 21:27 FlaShFTW wrote:On October 31 2017 21:20 d(O.o)a wrote:
Watch how flash positions his army, he has lines of siege tanks and he scans before fights, "just storm his army" isn't so simple, he WILL snipe your templar with his tanks and vultures, he'll emp them, he'll continue to spread his tanks as he does, it's hard enough for bisu to even get a flying unit that moves faster in to stasis let alone slow ass templars. you use shuttles to bring templars in to avoid them getting empd and to allow them to move around faster. most late game PvT maxed situations will have templars in the shuttles. Which still have the exact same problem, if you're shuttling them in you have to drop them, press storm and target the area/unit you want to storm, meanwhile all flash has to do to counter it is target the shuttle with a goliath or two, have mines up, or tanks in the backline that haven't fired yet that autotarget the templar, or target the templar with vultures as they drop, and there's a small window before the shuttle dies to goliaths. It's really not as simple as you guys are making it out to be, impossible? no of course not but the way flash is playing don't be surprised if he deletes the templar before you can get meaningful storms off. you're also assuming this is the worst case scenario for protoss while the best case scenario for terran. they wont auto target the templar beacuse they'll be auto targetting the goons and zealots. you dont unload templar before your units, you wait until the armies have clashed to do it. is it more micro? yes. but im willing to put in the extra micro to make sure i have an army that can actually stand up to 200/200 which protosses like jangbi and stork in his prime have shown he can do. this is not something that is impossible nor even overly difficult as you make it out to be. once again, there's a reason protoss is favored against terran. this is flash we're talking about, not the average terran. people just want to bitch at terran when in reality they should only be bitching about flash. I'm specifically talking about flash, I've even mentioned him in every post in this quote thread. Flash's play looks even better than it did when any of the PvT specialists were in their prime, so regaling in how amazing they were back then is quite irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. Bisu isn't stupid, he's also a PvZ specialist which is a matchup where storms are necessary, it's not like he's unaware of the ability, he just doesn't consider it worth it in the current state of PvF. Making templar doesn't automatically guarantee your army can stand up to his either, IF you manage to get the meaty storms maybe it makes a difference, but if not that's gas that could've been spent on arbiters, goons, upgrades, etc. Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:35 BigFan wrote:On October 31 2017 21:30 d(O.o)a wrote:On October 31 2017 21:27 FlaShFTW wrote:On October 31 2017 21:20 d(O.o)a wrote:
Watch how flash positions his army, he has lines of siege tanks and he scans before fights, "just storm his army" isn't so simple, he WILL snipe your templar with his tanks and vultures, he'll emp them, he'll continue to spread his tanks as he does, it's hard enough for bisu to even get a flying unit that moves faster in to stasis let alone slow ass templars. you use shuttles to bring templars in to avoid them getting empd and to allow them to move around faster. most late game PvT maxed situations will have templars in the shuttles. Which still have the exact same problem, if you're shuttling them in you have to drop them, press storm and target the area/unit you want to storm, meanwhile all flash has to do to counter it is target the shuttle with a goliath or two, have mines up, or tanks in the backline that haven't fired yet that autotarget the templar, or target the templar with vultures as they drop, and there's a small window before the shuttle dies to goliaths. It's really not as simple as you guys are making it out to be, impossible? no of course not but the way flash is playing don't be surprised if he deletes the templar before you can get meaningful storms off. or you move in with two shuttles and drop zealots first so the tanks auto-target them. Honestly, it may not be simple but it's worked plenty of times in the past. Bisu just doesn't like to storm for whatever reason and as letmelose mentioned earlier, his army control late game is pretty bad. Result isn't the most surprising tbh, was personally just hoping that Bisu ends Flash's final appearance because people will use anything to balance whining. Seems like you're both projecting the other commentator's tesagi comments on me, I'm explicitly talking about flash. I even mention how he's just not on the same level as other players atm. You fly in with 2 shuttles dropping zealots and templar (which doesn't happen instantly) and flash snipes them with his goliaths, now what? or he uses 4 vultures to 1-shot your templar the moment it gets out, again now what? Meanwhile your army has melted even faster because it's now even smaller due to the incorporation of storm, templars and shuttles with zealots Like I said it's not as cut and dry as people make it out to be, flash is beyond godlike right now, none of his series look close in any way. Everyone he plays just looks like a complete noob getting the smackdown.
ok, my apologies for assuming you are in the tesagi boat.
still, your situations you're creating are still worst case scenario for the protoss. Until we can come to some middle ground, there can be no discussion with you. I agree FlaSh is literal god right now, but I don't think he could micro that much against HT like you say he could. But I guess we'll never know until Protoss actually tries it against him.
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On October 31 2017 21:47 Dante08 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:30 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:21 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one that has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map (with an army worth 2x your maxed out army) without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Well bisu had the perfect set up for the game; he did not get harrassed he had a perfect economy and was maxed. Now one can say "terran is just op" *cry*cry* different approach: 1) How good was bisus unit composition (no hts with storm; zealot/goon ratio; enough arbiters or not; shuttles ect..)? 2) How good was his decision making when to pull back and when to keep attacking? Not nearly good enough in these games imo.. He didnt flank in the game on FS; he didnt pull back early enough; then he didnt defend his two nexuses but let them die and funnily attacked a few seconds after they were dead when nothing really changed.. that can happen to an average player but should not to a pro on bisus level Dont make it sound like tvp is imba; bisu didnt play as well a he could have when it mattered. THere is PLENTY of evidence that a toss can beat a terran in late game; it is about unit composition, how good the toss engages the fight; when he pulls back and how well he can macro; I promise you that you'll never find more games where P wins in a macro game with a maxed out ground army (zeal goon ht) + arbs vs a maxed out Terran army. Just think about Terran as a race rationally, they're the ultimate defensive race and they have the strongest maxed out army (by maxed out army i mean easiest accessible army, not talking about 200/200 pure carriers, i'm taking about same tier army comps), there's no debating that. The only way to weaken Terran is by making anti Terran maps, like ASL has this season (current map pool is great for ZvT). Have you even watched competitive BW during the Kespa era? Protoss wins late game usually because of better mobility, counter attacks, recall, being able to take multiple bases and remax faster. Terran needs to keep their army together while Protoss can attack multiple locations on the map. Yes head on the Protoss army usually loses but Protoss can afford to trade inefficiently due to having more bases which is the key to PvT. You are using Flash, the best player of all time as an example of Terran imba which is just stupid.
perhaps he wouldn't be considered best player of all time if Terran wasn't imba. How many Bonjwa's are terran; again ? 
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On October 31 2017 21:51 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:47 Dante08 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:30 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:21 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one that has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map (with an army worth 2x your maxed out army) without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Well bisu had the perfect set up for the game; he did not get harrassed he had a perfect economy and was maxed. Now one can say "terran is just op" *cry*cry* different approach: 1) How good was bisus unit composition (no hts with storm; zealot/goon ratio; enough arbiters or not; shuttles ect..)? 2) How good was his decision making when to pull back and when to keep attacking? Not nearly good enough in these games imo.. He didnt flank in the game on FS; he didnt pull back early enough; then he didnt defend his two nexuses but let them die and funnily attacked a few seconds after they were dead when nothing really changed.. that can happen to an average player but should not to a pro on bisus level Dont make it sound like tvp is imba; bisu didnt play as well a he could have when it mattered. THere is PLENTY of evidence that a toss can beat a terran in late game; it is about unit composition, how good the toss engages the fight; when he pulls back and how well he can macro; I promise you that you'll never find more games where P wins in a macro game with a maxed out ground army (zeal goon ht) + arbs vs a maxed out Terran army. Just think about Terran as a race rationally, they're the ultimate defensive race and they have the strongest maxed out army (by maxed out army i mean easiest accessible army, not talking about 200/200 pure carriers, i'm taking about same tier army comps), there's no debating that. The only way to weaken Terran is by making anti Terran maps, like ASL has this season (current map pool is great for ZvT). Have you even watched competitive BW during the Kespa era? Protoss wins late game usually because of better mobility, counter attacks, recall, being able to take multiple bases and remax faster. Terran needs to keep their army together while Protoss can attack multiple locations on the map. Yes head on the Protoss army usually loses but Protoss can afford to trade inefficiently due to having more bases which is the key to PvT. You are using Flash, the best player of all time as an example of Terran imba which is just stupid. I'm talking about modern day TvP where Terran's gameplay is so refined that Protoss' shit their pants whenever they go in for a recall because their entire army could just evaporate due to mines (which is why Protoss players in general rarely recall vs 3 base Terrans anymore, they only start recalling when they take bases further away from their main). Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:49 FlaShFTW wrote:
Ok, honestly, can we stop conflating FlaSh with all terrans? TT1, honestly bro, if Terran was so damn imbalanced, explain why Protoss has a winning record against Terran overall? Explain that one to me. Because at this point you're just trying to make excuses for why FlaSh is the best and it's crossed a point where now it seems like you're trying to discredit everything FlaSh has achieved and worked for to get to this point in his career to where he's untouchable. Maybe you're not trying to do that, but it seems like it and the way you talk makes it seem like it. The easiest way to gauge the strength of Terran is to just look at the ladder rankings, every player ladders, even the high end pros.
How about you name Terran players who have a good TvP win rate vs Protoss players who have a good PvT win rate.
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On October 31 2017 21:49 FlaShFTW wrote:
Ok, honestly, can we stop conflating FlaSh with all terrans? TT1, honestly bro, if Terran was so damn imbalanced, explain why Protoss has a winning record against Terran overall? Explain that one to me. Because at this point you're just trying to make excuses for why FlaSh is the best and it's crossed a point where now it seems like you're trying to discredit everything FlaSh has achieved and worked for to get to this point in his career to where he's untouchable. Maybe you're not trying to do that, but it seems like it and the way you talk makes it seem like it.
He has not watched Flash's stream and seen that he actually loses quite a bit TvP. Seeing these games vs Bisu it might look like he never loses, but that's not close to the truth.
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United States10097 Posts
On October 31 2017 21:51 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:47 Dante08 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:30 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:21 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one that has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map (with an army worth 2x your maxed out army) without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Well bisu had the perfect set up for the game; he did not get harrassed he had a perfect economy and was maxed. Now one can say "terran is just op" *cry*cry* different approach: 1) How good was bisus unit composition (no hts with storm; zealot/goon ratio; enough arbiters or not; shuttles ect..)? 2) How good was his decision making when to pull back and when to keep attacking? Not nearly good enough in these games imo.. He didnt flank in the game on FS; he didnt pull back early enough; then he didnt defend his two nexuses but let them die and funnily attacked a few seconds after they were dead when nothing really changed.. that can happen to an average player but should not to a pro on bisus level Dont make it sound like tvp is imba; bisu didnt play as well a he could have when it mattered. THere is PLENTY of evidence that a toss can beat a terran in late game; it is about unit composition, how good the toss engages the fight; when he pulls back and how well he can macro; I promise you that you'll never find more games where P wins in a macro game with a maxed out ground army (zeal goon ht) + arbs vs a maxed out Terran army. Just think about Terran as a race rationally, they're the ultimate defensive race and they have the strongest maxed out army (by maxed out army i mean easiest accessible army, not talking about 200/200 pure carriers, i'm taking about same tier army comps), there's no debating that. The only way to weaken Terran is by making anti Terran maps, like ASL has this season (current map pool is great for ZvT). Have you even watched competitive BW during the Kespa era? Protoss wins late game usually because of better mobility, counter attacks, recall, being able to take multiple bases and remax faster. Terran needs to keep their army together while Protoss can attack multiple locations on the map. Yes head on the Protoss army usually loses but Protoss can afford to trade inefficiently due to having more bases which is the key to PvT. You are using Flash, the best player of all time as an example of Terran imba which is just stupid. I'm talking about modern day TvP where Terran's gameplay is so refined that Protoss' shit their pants whenever they go in for a recall because their entire army could just evaporate due to mines (which is why Protoss players in general rarely recall vs 3 base Terrans anymore, they only start recalling when they take bases further away from their main). Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:49 FlaShFTW wrote:
Ok, honestly, can we stop conflating FlaSh with all terrans? TT1, honestly bro, if Terran was so damn imbalanced, explain why Protoss has a winning record against Terran overall? Explain that one to me. Because at this point you're just trying to make excuses for why FlaSh is the best and it's crossed a point where now it seems like you're trying to discredit everything FlaSh has achieved and worked for to get to this point in his career to where he's untouchable. Maybe you're not trying to do that, but it seems like it and the way you talk makes it seem like it. The easiest way to gauge the strength of Terran is to just look at the ladder rankings, every player ladders, even the high end pros.
the fact that you have to resort to ladder rankings is hilarious and a ridiculous reach. Does that mean that people like santorin, who is #2 ladder in League, is the best jungle in NA right now? no that would be laughable to say something like that. Ladder means nothing. Once again, you seem to be dodging the question of how Protoss have had a winning record against Terran throughout history.
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