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TLADT24920 Posts
On October 31 2017 21:03 Yakota wrote:
I like how everyone is saying how bad Bisu played and no one credits how solid Flash's standard game.
Same as last season. Shine looks incredible throughout the season with ridiculous builds then gets completely shut down in the finals and looks like a scrub.
Flash makes good players look shit..period.
I believe everyone instinctively agrees/believes that Flash is solid so it doesn't get discussed.
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On October 31 2017 20:55 StarscreamG1 wrote:
The +2-1 timing is +2 defense or attack?
2 attack.
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On October 31 2017 20:55 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 20:52 Piste wrote:
God damn, why did Bisu decide to expand when he lost all his goons and Flash unsieged to counter.. He had to? That expansion came way too late but better late than never...
If he would have got few more units out and somehow killed Flash's push, he might have had the chance to force lift on the forward CC. Either way I think it would have been better to accept playing from behind rather than trying to expand vs push without any dragoons, especially on that map.
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United States10365 Posts
On October 31 2017 01:07 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 01:03 Shady Sands wrote:
I see dead... templar marinating in salty fanboy tears as Flash advances. oh hey, been a while huh ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/btbej.jpg)
Needs more of this.
On October 31 2017 10:48 Twinkle Toes wrote:
Flash <Gladiator> Bisu
Flash <Fighting Spirit> Bisu
Flash <Crossing Field> Bisu
Flash <Gold Rush> Bisu
Flash <Gladiator> Bisu
tfw you get it exactly the opposite. unlucky
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I feel like there is something uniquely clutch with Flash's offline performances. Online, during his streams, he loses a fair bit. I guess it could be because of the non-competitive nature of the games, but when you think of Soulkey, Best and Effort, they're extremely capable of beating him and still he is the one ending up in the finals every season.This time he navigated around them through choice and a bit of luck. So I guess my question to the ether is whether he really is this good or if circumstances have favored him in an uncanny way. There is no doubt in my mind that his psyche is second to none in the BW scene, and that certainly counts for a lot in offline environments.
Anyway, I hope he wins the finals cements his legacy even further as a uniquely strong player, one that works hard for it and is willing to lose a lot to win even more. It's like he said about his practice games, he lost a lot of them, maybe because of his absence of vanity and desire for shortsighted, unimportant victories. Better to lose 20 online and learn from losses and experimenting, than winning unimportant matches by going for what you're already great at to bolster an empty online win-loss ratio and ending up stagnant. My 5 cents...
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On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army..
Tesagi deniers will never understand this or choose not to.
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On October 31 2017 21:03 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:01 Essbee wrote:
I wish flash would play protoss to show them how it's done. I'm pretty sure he would USE high templars instead of morphing them into archons (wtf?) 4 games, not a single high templar (for storm). What was worse was that Bisu's game 2 on FS was extremely solid, close to perfect as he grabbed a 6th. He was maxed when Flash was close to 140 supply yet he waited till Flash almost maxed, suicided his army and lost to Flash's push. Like, imagine 3-4 hts in there or several recalls on top of the army. Why doesn't Bisu do any of this stuff???
I was wondering the exact same thing, why doesnt he just keep terran's supply down... doesnt even matter if he doesnt trade super evenly as he has way more bases and flash wouldn't be able to expand easily.. yet he waits until flash is close to max and then makes some bad attack where he puts stasis on all the front units...
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On October 31 2017 21:01 Essbee wrote:
I wish flash would play protoss to show them how it's done. I'm pretty sure he would USE high templars instead of morphing them into archons (wtf?)
Missing the Jangbi storms man.... Where is that guy??
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TLADT24920 Posts
On October 31 2017 21:08 Levque wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Tesagi deniers will never understand this or choose not to.
There is no tesagi.
On October 31 2017 21:08 Kaolla wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:03 BigFan wrote:On October 31 2017 21:01 Essbee wrote:
I wish flash would play protoss to show them how it's done. I'm pretty sure he would USE high templars instead of morphing them into archons (wtf?) 4 games, not a single high templar (for storm). What was worse was that Bisu's game 2 on FS was extremely solid, close to perfect as he grabbed a 6th. He was maxed when Flash was close to 140 supply yet he waited till Flash almost maxed, suicided his army and lost to Flash's push. Like, imagine 3-4 hts in there or several recalls on top of the army. Why doesn't Bisu do any of this stuff??? I was wondering the exact same thing, why doesnt he just keep terran's supply down... doesnt even matter if he doesnt trade super evenly as he has way more bases and flash wouldn't be able to expand easily.. yet he waits until flash is close to max and then makes some bad attack where he puts stasis on all the front units...
pretty much. Someone will probably argue that Flash is too defensive but it's much that what we got imo.
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On October 31 2017 21:03 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:01 Essbee wrote:
I wish flash would play protoss to show them how it's done. I'm pretty sure he would USE high templars instead of morphing them into archons (wtf?) yeah... protoss these days just dont use storms for whatever reason... storms are one of the only ways to break 200/200 terran mech when they siege up without like 10 stasis. We need jangbi back to show toss how it's done and honestly I want Jangbi to play FlaSh and dismantle him with storms.
I second that, sadly its looking like Jangbi doesnt give a damn about Starcraft since he retired.
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On October 31 2017 21:08 Levque wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Tesagi deniers will never understand this or choose not to.
This is hilariously hard to do, Flash just makes it look easy. I can 200/200 in <13 min vs the computer like Flash, yet I cannot beat average protoss players.
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On October 31 2017 21:12 LG)Sabbath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:08 Levque wrote:On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Tesagi deniers will never understand this or choose not to. This is hilariously hard to do, Flash just makes it look easy. I can 200/200 in <13 min vs the computer like Flash, yet I cannot beat average protoss players.
We're not talking about you or me tho, we're talking about high end progamer T's.
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United States10365 Posts
On October 31 2017 21:08 Levque wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Tesagi deniers will never understand this or choose not to.
then explain why protoss has a favorable win rate over terran across all games? like we understand, terran's 200/200 mech is pretty strong. But protoss has many options to deal with it. arbiter stasis to cut the army in half, storms which we never see anymore, critical mass carriers, recalls to stall terran. These are all options for Protoss and just because bisu played uninspiring and lackluster starcraft does not make any of these things any less true.
G1: Bisu goes for a total BO loss 2 gate power goon vs siege expand, probably hoping flash would have 1 rax FEd or 14CCd. 4 knows bisu is forced to go for a double expand, counters with 4 fact timing and bisu almost manages to hold as well. So from being so far behind just by the early game builds, he didnt do bad and you cant attribute that to tesagi.
G2: Bisu was actually well ahead in the early game by killing several scvs, managed to expand very well and quickly across the map and reached 6 bases when flash was at 3. his initial push on the ramp was terrible though, and he needed to either stasis the back tanks, or stasis the front tanks and retreat without losing much. instead he ran head on with like 15 zealots, lost all of them due to getting clumped on stasised units, and killed barely anything. also no storms from him, instead making archons. once again, that game was entirely on bisu to lose... and he did. imagine if he had storms instead of archons and didnt burn 3 stasis on a horrible attack? I honestly think he holds the first big push from flash.
G4: He goes for basically a pseudo-all-in with double speed shuttle and fails to do any damage with it. idk what to say about this. yes, it does show terran's inherit ability to defend and flash knows how to defend and turtle better than anyone. this was probably the only game where you could argue tesagi.
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On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one that has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map (with an army worth 2x your maxed out army) without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army..
Yeah, watch as a Terran army sieges 3s too late and their army magically disappears.
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On October 31 2017 21:08 Kaolla wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:03 BigFan wrote:On October 31 2017 21:01 Essbee wrote:
I wish flash would play protoss to show them how it's done. I'm pretty sure he would USE high templars instead of morphing them into archons (wtf?) 4 games, not a single high templar (for storm). What was worse was that Bisu's game 2 on FS was extremely solid, close to perfect as he grabbed a 6th. He was maxed when Flash was close to 140 supply yet he waited till Flash almost maxed, suicided his army and lost to Flash's push. Like, imagine 3-4 hts in there or several recalls on top of the army. Why doesn't Bisu do any of this stuff??? I was wondering the exact same thing, why doesnt he just keep terran's supply down... doesnt even matter if he doesnt trade super evenly as he has way more bases and flash wouldn't be able to expand easily.. yet he waits until flash is close to max and then makes some bad attack where he puts stasis on all the front units...
look at that vod and tell me where you're pushing in before T moves out? he had a wall at his third, wall at natural, turrets and mines everywhere as anti recall def. You have to pick that first fight better, more in the open, with storms and better stasis i agree. But i felt there was no way to trade armies in an acceptable way before that.
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On October 31 2017 21:14 Cryoc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one that has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map (with an army worth 2x your maxed out army) without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Yeah, watch as a Terran army sieges 3s too late and their army magically disappears.
That's not a micro mistake that's a newb mistake, again i'm talking about high-end progamer T's. Being able to scan ahead of your army is a given, when have you seen a progamer T siege his tanks late in a 200/200 fight vs P?
All terran has to do is scan, siege/unsiege and EMP, once you hit 200/200 you don't even need to plant mines to fight P's army (mines become extremely effective once you secure a good position and you can cut off reinforcing units from other bases with them).
Odds of making a micro mistake is extremely low given how little you need to do to manage your army and the strength of it. The biggest mistake T can make is getting caught off guard and getting a lot of their vessels stasis'd while they're unsieged. Obviously that's an instant loss but that has nothing to do with micro, it's more of a multitask mistake.
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United States10365 Posts
On October 31 2017 21:14 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:08 Kaolla wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 BigFan wrote:On October 31 2017 21:01 Essbee wrote:
I wish flash would play protoss to show them how it's done. I'm pretty sure he would USE high templars instead of morphing them into archons (wtf?) 4 games, not a single high templar (for storm). What was worse was that Bisu's game 2 on FS was extremely solid, close to perfect as he grabbed a 6th. He was maxed when Flash was close to 140 supply yet he waited till Flash almost maxed, suicided his army and lost to Flash's push. Like, imagine 3-4 hts in there or several recalls on top of the army. Why doesn't Bisu do any of this stuff??? I was wondering the exact same thing, why doesnt he just keep terran's supply down... doesnt even matter if he doesnt trade super evenly as he has way more bases and flash wouldn't be able to expand easily.. yet he waits until flash is close to max and then makes some bad attack where he puts stasis on all the front units... look at that vod and tell me where you're pushing in before T moves out? he had a wall at his third, wall at natural, turrets and mines everywhere as anti recall def. You have to pick that first fight better, more in the open, with storms and better stasis i agree. But i felt there was no way to trade armies in an acceptable way before that.
You could recall to trade portions of the army earlier, but Bisu was scared since the goliaths of flash damaged his arbiter pretty hard and so any recall bisu felt would not work since he would immediately recall behind turrets and he probably expected flash to have mines directly behind. if he couldve gotten an arbiter at full health to the center of flash's main to recall, perhaps he would have been more confident to pull the trigger and recall. I agree he cant push into flash until flash tried to move across the bridge into a choke.
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On October 31 2017 21:13 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:12 LG)Sabbath wrote:On October 31 2017 21:08 Levque wrote:On October 31 2017 21:04 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 21:03 Cele wrote:On October 31 2017 21:00 TT1 wrote:On October 31 2017 20:56 Cele wrote:
Bisu's play was so disappointing today actually. Flash would have been the favorite under all circumstances, but *notlikethis* Honestly it just looked like a typical PvT ladder session to me, this is how most PvT games turn out.. even at pro levels. Bisu's only win was because he went for an unconventional build which FlaSh tried to punish with a timing attack that he probably never practiced before. well, there were some sloppy plays and some unforced errors. Bisu's overaggressive play shows he wasn't comfortable playing the long game too. We saw why on FS. Playing vs Terran just forces other races to make mistakes because you're the one has to do something. T can just macro up their army and move across the map without needing to worry about miss-microing or anything, there's nothing to miss micro because they have the ultimate maxed out army.. Tesagi deniers will never understand this or choose not to. This is hilariously hard to do, Flash just makes it look easy. I can 200/200 in <13 min vs the computer like Flash, yet I cannot beat average protoss players. We're not talking about you or me tho, we're talking about high end progamer T's.
I am just giving the rationale that deniers would use, since he denied there's any rationale to it.
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Bulgaria750 Posts
On October 31 2017 20:34 Heartland wrote:
In the wild the male Terran will sometimes inflate his cheeks with water to appear bigger and more intimidating to his prey.
This made my day.
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On October 31 2017 21:03 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2017 21:01 Essbee wrote:
I wish flash would play protoss to show them how it's done. I'm pretty sure he would USE high templars instead of morphing them into archons (wtf?) yeah... protoss these days just dont use storms for whatever reason... storms are one of the only ways to break 200/200 terran mech when they siege up without like 10 stasis. We need jangbi back to show toss how it's done and honestly I want Jangbi to play FlaSh and dismantle him with storms. The same way that I feel like Zergs in ZvP need to do more muta timing switches to snipe HTs. I hardly see zergs do that these days as well.
Because using storms is a Samsung PvT style. In SKT, Best just streams unlimited amounts of zealots into the Terran army and destroy them.... :D
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EPT
