On October 31 2017 22:33 intotheheart wrote: Did anyone else get chills to Iris vs. Bisu for g1 I'm just watching them now.
i'm on iris's stream but he's just talking?
I think it was Avalon MSL Ro8 or something where it looked like Terran just made stuff, attacked, and then won.
Wasn't it the game where bisu made tons of hallucinated stuff to try and and break iris's base? Yeah one of the best game I've ever watched, felt super nostalgic when I watched it the first time.
When Flash win game 2 , u said omg 6 base lose to 3 base . How fucking OP.
Isn't PvT is the way weaker mobile army vs strong immobile army works?
Mobile army is able to have initiative, map control, and taking more bases while immobile army is great at securing bases but not great at taking them.
Coupled by the fact that Bio does not really works against a Protoss, really put Protoss at a advantage against a Terran. Hence T>Z>P>T.
And Protoss has the active/ 1st strike initiative while Terran has to passively build his army before pushing out. If u played computer games in general or TCG isn't the active player has more advantage than the passive player?
Like others have pointed out , Bisu has big advantage at game 2 , he max out so much earlier with 6 base due to early game great play. But HE MADE MISTAKE / BAD PLAY that cause him the game. Many has pointed out this.
But u seem to think differently .
!!
And u always mention max out terran army destroy max out protoss army. WE ALL KNOW THAT. The whole point of Mobile army vs Immobile army.
Why dont u mention Protoss has easier time to take more bases and have more stuff than Terran.?
Bisu has timing to win against Terran but he didnt execute it well. And Flash is a really good player that he has a chance to comeback in disadvantage situation.
Many has agreed it is Bisu made mistake that lost his game, they didn't say it is because Terran OP. Except maybe u.
TT1 u remind me of the the father who refused to open the door for his son to enter the house, because he is SO SURE his son the corpse outside the burned village is his son and the one knocking at the door is some kind of imposter/ ghost.
On October 31 2017 22:26 MaGic~PhiL wrote: TT1 would u be so kind and answer if we agree on this?
1) Bisus unit composition was not as good as it could have been (lack of hts and storm; shuttle with hts even better) 2) Bisus decision when, how, where and for how long to attack was bad 3) Bisus stasises were definitely not good (too far in front, stasised own units) 4) Bisus decision to let his two last nexuses (at the top of the map) die when he could have defended them (which he showed he could because he did so 5-10 seconds after the nexuses went down -_-)
You've asked this numerous times so i won't be rude and ignore you but i don't understand what you're trying to achieve here, anyways:
1) Nope it wasn't he could have added HT's to make his army stronger, still doesn't mean he would have traded better tho (but yes it's more likely that he would have, still can't know if he would have killed enough to deny FlaSh from just marching to his nat)
2) Where he attacked wasn't wrong (at the bridge) but he should have backed up earlier
3) I agree, he should have stasis'ed the tanks at the back and taken out the tanks at the front with his army
4) I don't know but the game was already over once FlaSh took control of his nat, he couldn't move out with his main base army to help protect his top bases
You are a good protoss player, wouldn't you agree that it was a mistake when he decided to attack flash's third on gold rush after losing two shuttles worth of stuff? I really don't see the point of him doing this, I only see it as a mistake and nothing else...
No he played it right, the problem is he put himself in a losing position due to a lack of confidence. I even said that as the game was happening:
On October 31 2017 20:44 TT1 wrote: gg Bisu loses, only chance is to win with a mass gate unit allin
this was right after he lost his 2 shuttles in FlaSh's main, he proceeded to do that but still lost
On October 31 2017 20:48 TT1 wrote: Btw, Bisu's plan this game from the start was to do a gate unit allin, that's usually what you do after you open with 2 speedshuttles and try to harass T's main. It's hard to transition into anything else, i know for a fact that FlaSh has experience vs this style tho. Reach beat him with it a week ago.
Basically Bisu did this build because he has no confidence in himself to win a macro game vs FlaSh.
On October 31 2017 22:26 MaGic~PhiL wrote: TT1 would u be so kind and answer if we agree on this?
1) Bisus unit composition was not as good as it could have been (lack of hts and storm; shuttle with hts even better) 2) Bisus decision when, how, where and for how long to attack was bad 3) Bisus stasises were definitely not good (too far in front, stasised own units) 4) Bisus decision to let his two last nexuses (at the top of the map) die when he could have defended them (which he showed he could because he did so 5-10 seconds after the nexuses went down -_-)
You've asked this numerous times so i won't be rude and ignore you but i don't understand what you're trying to achieve here, anyways:
1) Nope it wasn't he could have added HT's to make his army stronger, still doesn't mean he would have traded better tho (but yes it's more likely that he would have, still can't know if he would have killed enough to deny FlaSh from just marching to his nat)
2) Where he attacked wasn't wrong (at the bridge) but he should have backed up earlier
3) I agree, he should have stasis'ed the tanks at the back and taken out the tanks at the front with his army
4) I don't know but the game was already over once FlaSh took control of his nat, he couldn't move out with his main base army to help protect his top bases
You are a good protoss player, wouldn't you agree that it was a mistake when he decided to attack flash's third on gold rush after losing two shuttles worth of stuff? I really don't see the point of him doing this, I only see it as a mistake and nothing else...
No he played it right, the problem is he put himself in a losing position due to a lack of confidence. I even said that as the game was happening:
On October 31 2017 20:48 TT1 wrote: Btw, Bisu's plan this game from the start was to do a gate unit allin, that's usually what you do after you open with 2 speedshuttles and try to harass T's main. It's hard to transition into anything else, i know for a fact that FlaSh has experience vs this style tho. Reach beat him with it a week ago.
Basically Bisu did this build because he has no confidence in himself to win a macro game vs FlaSh.
analysis of the game
Alright, thanks for your answer. You know the game more than me, just seems like such a strange decision, especially since he had 3 bases too, he could have just kept expanding on the edges of the map maybe? I don't if that's possible but it also seems like trying to engage in the middle of the map when the tanks are unsieged would just make more sense than trying to fight an established position. I'll watch the video though.
bisu should have won the fighting spirit game but he made really bad choices and engagements after he got to limit vs 150 supply. Then it would have been 2-2 and maybe bisu would win the final game.
What I see is players consistently losing because they fail to abuse the one weakness terran has - immobility. Bisu had limit, didn't have to engage flash's army, could keep flash on 3 bases, could have taken top right and built lots of gates there, instead sacrifices his army in a horrible engagement after stasising the front 10 tanks while allowing the back 15 to pummel him down. At that point, Flash could put on pressure towards bisu's main gateway concentration, and it was basically over.
Yes, protoss cannot cost-efficiently engage a full terran army. But they can get such an advantage before terran gets to that point that they end up having three different points for terran to attack, and then terran either needs to choose one of them (then toss can backstab with full army) or spread out to multiple points (at which point it's possible to engage again). I saw Flash winning today because he didn't make mistakes of significance and because Bisu made several crucial ones. It wasn't balance related.
On October 31 2017 22:26 MaGic~PhiL wrote: TT1 would u be so kind and answer if we agree on this?
1) Bisus unit composition was not as good as it could have been (lack of hts and storm; shuttle with hts even better) 2) Bisus decision when, how, where and for how long to attack was bad 3) Bisus stasises were definitely not good (too far in front, stasised own units) 4) Bisus decision to let his two last nexuses (at the top of the map) die when he could have defended them (which he showed he could because he did so 5-10 seconds after the nexuses went down -_-)
You've asked this numerous times so i won't be rude and ignore you but i don't understand what you're trying to achieve here, anyways:
1) Nope it wasn't he could have added HT's to make his army stronger, still doesn't mean he would have traded better tho (but yes it's more likely that he would have, still can't know if he would have killed enough to deny FlaSh from just marching to his nat)
2) Where he attacked wasn't wrong (at the bridge) but he should have backed up earlier
3) I agree, he should have stasis'ed the tanks at the back and taken out the tanks at the front with his army
4) I don't know but the game was already over once FlaSh took control of his nat, he couldn't move out with his main base army to help protect his top bases
You are a good protoss player, wouldn't you agree that it was a mistake when he decided to attack flash's third on gold rush after losing two shuttles worth of stuff? I really don't see the point of him doing this, I only see it as a mistake and nothing else...
No he played it right, the problem is he put himself in a losing position due to a lack of confidence. I even said that as the game was happening:
On October 31 2017 20:44 TT1 wrote: gg Bisu loses, only chance is to win with a mass gate unit allin
this was after he lost his 2 shuttles in FlaSh's main
On October 31 2017 20:48 TT1 wrote: Btw, Bisu's plan this game from the start was to do a gate unit allin, that's usually what you do after you open with 2 speedshuttles and try to harass T's main. It's hard to transition into anything else, i know for a fact that FlaSh has experience vs this style tho. Reach beat him with it a week ago.
Basically Bisu did this build because he has no confidence in himself to win a macro game vs FlaSh.
analysis of the game
Alright, thanks for your answer. You know the game more than me, just seems like such a strange decision, especially since he had 3 bases too, he could have just kept expanding on the edges of the map maybe? I don't if that's possible but it also seems like trying to engage in the middle of the map when the tanks are unsieged would just make more sense than trying to fight an established position. I'll watch the video though.
When you do that mass shuttle style your arb tech is extremely late so it puts you in an alliney position because you just end up fighting a 2-1 mech army with only gate units (zeal + goons). If you can't do enough damage with that style T just ends up rolling you, that b.o is a semi allin build. He even probe cut and didn't take his 3rd base gas.
Bisu's hope was to bust FlaSh's 3rd with gate units before he could macro up a big army with 2-1.
On October 31 2017 22:26 MaGic~PhiL wrote: TT1 would u be so kind and answer if we agree on this?
1) Bisus unit composition was not as good as it could have been (lack of hts and storm; shuttle with hts even better) 2) Bisus decision when, how, where and for how long to attack was bad 3) Bisus stasises were definitely not good (too far in front, stasised own units) 4) Bisus decision to let his two last nexuses (at the top of the map) die when he could have defended them (which he showed he could because he did so 5-10 seconds after the nexuses went down -_-)
You've asked this numerous times so i won't be rude and ignore you but i don't understand what you're trying to achieve here, anyways:
1) Nope it wasn't he could have added HT's to make his army stronger, still doesn't mean he would have traded better tho (but yes it's more likely that he would have, still can't know if he would have killed enough to deny FlaSh from just marching to his nat)
2) Where he attacked wasn't wrong (at the bridge) but he should have backed up earlier
3) I agree, he should have stasis'ed the tanks at the back and taken out the tanks at the front with his army
4) I don't know but the game was already over once FlaSh took control of his nat, he couldn't move out with his main base army to help protect his top bases
You are a good protoss player, wouldn't you agree that it was a mistake when he decided to attack flash's third on gold rush after losing two shuttles worth of stuff? I really don't see the point of him doing this, I only see it as a mistake and nothing else...
No he played it right, the problem is he put himself in a losing position due to a lack of confidence. I even said that as the game was happening:
On October 31 2017 20:48 TT1 wrote: Btw, Bisu's plan this game from the start was to do a gate unit allin, that's usually what you do after you open with 2 speedshuttles and try to harass T's main. It's hard to transition into anything else, i know for a fact that FlaSh has experience vs this style tho. Reach beat him with it a week ago.
Basically Bisu did this build because he has no confidence in himself to win a macro game vs FlaSh.
analysis of the game
Watching the first game, Reach was able to deal enough damage, no? Bisu basically did nothing with his shuttles, and flash's position was much stronger as a result. Wouldn't that be the difference between the 2 games? Is it still better for the protoss to still try to go in despite the initial failure?
On October 31 2017 22:26 MaGic~PhiL wrote: TT1 would u be so kind and answer if we agree on this?
1) Bisus unit composition was not as good as it could have been (lack of hts and storm; shuttle with hts even better) 2) Bisus decision when, how, where and for how long to attack was bad 3) Bisus stasises were definitely not good (too far in front, stasised own units) 4) Bisus decision to let his two last nexuses (at the top of the map) die when he could have defended them (which he showed he could because he did so 5-10 seconds after the nexuses went down -_-)
You've asked this numerous times so i won't be rude and ignore you but i don't understand what you're trying to achieve here, anyways:
1) Nope it wasn't he could have added HT's to make his army stronger, still doesn't mean he would have traded better tho (but yes it's more likely that he would have, still can't know if he would have killed enough to deny FlaSh from just marching to his nat)
2) Where he attacked wasn't wrong (at the bridge) but he should have backed up earlier
3) I agree, he should have stasis'ed the tanks at the back and taken out the tanks at the front with his army
4) I don't know but the game was already over once FlaSh took control of his nat, he couldn't move out with his main base army to help protect his top bases
You are a good protoss player, wouldn't you agree that it was a mistake when he decided to attack flash's third on gold rush after losing two shuttles worth of stuff? I really don't see the point of him doing this, I only see it as a mistake and nothing else...
No he played it right, the problem is he put himself in a losing position due to a lack of confidence. I even said that as the game was happening:
On October 31 2017 20:44 TT1 wrote: gg Bisu loses, only chance is to win with a mass gate unit allin
this was after he lost his 2 shuttles in FlaSh's main
On October 31 2017 20:48 TT1 wrote: Btw, Bisu's plan this game from the start was to do a gate unit allin, that's usually what you do after you open with 2 speedshuttles and try to harass T's main. It's hard to transition into anything else, i know for a fact that FlaSh has experience vs this style tho. Reach beat him with it a week ago.
Basically Bisu did this build because he has no confidence in himself to win a macro game vs FlaSh.
analysis of the game
Alright, thanks for your answer. You know the game more than me, just seems like such a strange decision, especially since he had 3 bases too, he could have just kept expanding on the edges of the map maybe? I don't if that's possible but it also seems like trying to engage in the middle of the map when the tanks are unsieged would just make more sense than trying to fight an established position. I'll watch the video though.
When you do that mass shuttle style your arb tech is extremely late so it puts you in an alliney position because you just end up fighting a 2-1 mech army with only gate units (zeal + goons). If you can't do enough damage with that style T just ends up rolling you, that b.o is a semi allin build. He even probe cut and didn't take his 3rd base gas.
Ok just saw this, yeah that make sense. He should have tried going templars one game at least
Guys i just rewatched that critical part the second game we are talking about. These attacks actually didnt made Bisu lose, actually what he did after was insanely bad. He had all he needed to kill flash. He had enough army and energy for 2 stasis while flash was pushing across the map, but he didnt used his stasis and let his units die Instead... And from then flash started picking up his expansions. Just see that yourself.
On October 31 2017 22:26 MaGic~PhiL wrote: TT1 would u be so kind and answer if we agree on this?
1) Bisus unit composition was not as good as it could have been (lack of hts and storm; shuttle with hts even better) 2) Bisus decision when, how, where and for how long to attack was bad 3) Bisus stasises were definitely not good (too far in front, stasised own units) 4) Bisus decision to let his two last nexuses (at the top of the map) die when he could have defended them (which he showed he could because he did so 5-10 seconds after the nexuses went down -_-)
You've asked this numerous times so i won't be rude and ignore you but i don't understand what you're trying to achieve here, anyways:
1) Nope it wasn't he could have added HT's to make his army stronger, still doesn't mean he would have traded better tho (but yes it's more likely that he would have, still can't know if he would have killed enough to deny FlaSh from just marching to his nat)
2) Where he attacked wasn't wrong (at the bridge) but he should have backed up earlier
3) I agree, he should have stasis'ed the tanks at the back and taken out the tanks at the front with his army
4) I don't know but the game was already over once FlaSh took control of his nat, he couldn't move out with his main base army to help protect his top bases
You are a good protoss player, wouldn't you agree that it was a mistake when he decided to attack flash's third on gold rush after losing two shuttles worth of stuff? I really don't see the point of him doing this, I only see it as a mistake and nothing else...
No he played it right, the problem is he put himself in a losing position due to a lack of confidence. I even said that as the game was happening:
On October 31 2017 22:26 MaGic~PhiL wrote: TT1 would u be so kind and answer if we agree on this?
1) Bisus unit composition was not as good as it could have been (lack of hts and storm; shuttle with hts even better) 2) Bisus decision when, how, where and for how long to attack was bad 3) Bisus stasises were definitely not good (too far in front, stasised own units) 4) Bisus decision to let his two last nexuses (at the top of the map) die when he could have defended them (which he showed he could because he did so 5-10 seconds after the nexuses went down -_-)
You've asked this numerous times so i won't be rude and ignore you but i don't understand what you're trying to achieve here, anyways:
1) Nope it wasn't he could have added HT's to make his army stronger, still doesn't mean he would have traded better tho (but yes it's more likely that he would have, still can't know if he would have killed enough to deny FlaSh from just marching to his nat)
2) Where he attacked wasn't wrong (at the bridge) but he should have backed up earlier
3) I agree, he should have stasis'ed the tanks at the back and taken out the tanks at the front with his army
4) I don't know but the game was already over once FlaSh took control of his nat, he couldn't move out with his main base army to help protect his top bases
You are a good protoss player, wouldn't you agree that it was a mistake when he decided to attack flash's third on gold rush after losing two shuttles worth of stuff? I really don't see the point of him doing this, I only see it as a mistake and nothing else...
No he played it right, the problem is he put himself in a losing position due to a lack of confidence. I even said that as the game was happening:
Did he lack confidence when he got 0-3 by Sea?
Na, FlaSh is clearly the only Terran that can crush Bisu and no other player except FlaSh is good enough to play Terran with the required skill level needed to beat a player of Bisu's calibre. /s
On October 31 2017 22:26 MaGic~PhiL wrote: TT1 would u be so kind and answer if we agree on this?
1) Bisus unit composition was not as good as it could have been (lack of hts and storm; shuttle with hts even better) 2) Bisus decision when, how, where and for how long to attack was bad 3) Bisus stasises were definitely not good (too far in front, stasised own units) 4) Bisus decision to let his two last nexuses (at the top of the map) die when he could have defended them (which he showed he could because he did so 5-10 seconds after the nexuses went down -_-)
You've asked this numerous times so i won't be rude and ignore you but i don't understand what you're trying to achieve here, anyways:
1) Nope it wasn't he could have added HT's to make his army stronger, still doesn't mean he would have traded better tho (but yes it's more likely that he would have, still can't know if he would have killed enough to deny FlaSh from just marching to his nat)
2) Where he attacked wasn't wrong (at the bridge) but he should have backed up earlier
3) I agree, he should have stasis'ed the tanks at the back and taken out the tanks at the front with his army
4) I don't know but the game was already over once FlaSh took control of his nat, he couldn't move out with his main base army to help protect his top bases
You are a good protoss player, wouldn't you agree that it was a mistake when he decided to attack flash's third on gold rush after losing two shuttles worth of stuff? I really don't see the point of him doing this, I only see it as a mistake and nothing else...
No he played it right, the problem is he put himself in a losing position due to a lack of confidence. I even said that as the game was happening:
Did he lack confidence when he got 0-3 by Sea?
Na, FlaSh is clearly the only Terran that can crush Bisu and no other player except FlaSh is good enough to play Terran with the required skill level needed to beat a player of Bisu's calibre. /s
Sample size, remember? I guess you missed the times when Bisu humiliated Sea?
On October 31 2017 22:26 MaGic~PhiL wrote: TT1 would u be so kind and answer if we agree on this?
1) Bisus unit composition was not as good as it could have been (lack of hts and storm; shuttle with hts even better) 2) Bisus decision when, how, where and for how long to attack was bad 3) Bisus stasises were definitely not good (too far in front, stasised own units) 4) Bisus decision to let his two last nexuses (at the top of the map) die when he could have defended them (which he showed he could because he did so 5-10 seconds after the nexuses went down -_-)
You've asked this numerous times so i won't be rude and ignore you but i don't understand what you're trying to achieve here, anyways:
1) Nope it wasn't he could have added HT's to make his army stronger, still doesn't mean he would have traded better tho (but yes it's more likely that he would have, still can't know if he would have killed enough to deny FlaSh from just marching to his nat)
2) Where he attacked wasn't wrong (at the bridge) but he should have backed up earlier
3) I agree, he should have stasis'ed the tanks at the back and taken out the tanks at the front with his army
4) I don't know but the game was already over once FlaSh took control of his nat, he couldn't move out with his main base army to help protect his top bases
You are a good protoss player, wouldn't you agree that it was a mistake when he decided to attack flash's third on gold rush after losing two shuttles worth of stuff? I really don't see the point of him doing this, I only see it as a mistake and nothing else...
No he played it right, the problem is he put himself in a losing position due to a lack of confidence. I even said that as the game was happening:
Did he lack confidence when he got 0-3 by Sea?
Na, FlaSh is clearly the only Terran that can crush Bisu and no other player except FlaSh is good enough to play Terran with the required skill level needed to beat a player of Bisu's calibre. /s
Sample size, remember? I guess you missed the times when Bisu humiliated Sea?
BO5 is a big enough sample size to cut down on variance tho
A player of Bisu's calibre losing to Sea in a bo5 is like a player of FlaSh's calibre losing to Stork in a bo5 (with their modern day skill level).
On October 31 2017 22:26 MaGic~PhiL wrote: TT1 would u be so kind and answer if we agree on this?
1) Bisus unit composition was not as good as it could have been (lack of hts and storm; shuttle with hts even better) 2) Bisus decision when, how, where and for how long to attack was bad 3) Bisus stasises were definitely not good (too far in front, stasised own units) 4) Bisus decision to let his two last nexuses (at the top of the map) die when he could have defended them (which he showed he could because he did so 5-10 seconds after the nexuses went down -_-)
You've asked this numerous times so i won't be rude and ignore you but i don't understand what you're trying to achieve here, anyways:
1) Nope it wasn't he could have added HT's to make his army stronger, still doesn't mean he would have traded better tho (but yes it's more likely that he would have, still can't know if he would have killed enough to deny FlaSh from just marching to his nat)
2) Where he attacked wasn't wrong (at the bridge) but he should have backed up earlier
3) I agree, he should have stasis'ed the tanks at the back and taken out the tanks at the front with his army
4) I don't know but the game was already over once FlaSh took control of his nat, he couldn't move out with his main base army to help protect his top bases
You are a good protoss player, wouldn't you agree that it was a mistake when he decided to attack flash's third on gold rush after losing two shuttles worth of stuff? I really don't see the point of him doing this, I only see it as a mistake and nothing else...
No he played it right, the problem is he put himself in a losing position due to a lack of confidence. I even said that as the game was happening:
Did he lack confidence when he got 0-3 by Sea?
Na, FlaSh is clearly the only Terran that can crush Bisu and no other player except FlaSh is good enough to play Terran with the required skill level needed to beat a player of Bisu's calibre. /s
In the same ASL Sea almost lost to Best, but for some reason Best abandoned the arbiter play he was doing so well with (I think it was game 4 on Demian) and switched to carriers. Maybe (HERESY!) Bisu's PvT wasn't on par with that of Best back then.
On October 31 2017 22:44 Liquid`Drone wrote: bisu should have won the fighting spirit game but he made really bad choices and engagements after he got to limit vs 150 supply. Then it would have been 2-2 and maybe bisu would win the final game.
What I see is players consistently losing because they fail to abuse the one weakness terran has - immobility. Bisu had limit, didn't have to engage flash's army, could keep flash on 3 bases, could have taken top right and built lots of gates there, instead sacrifices his army in a horrible engagement after stasising the front 10 tanks while allowing the back 15 to pummel him down. At that point, Flash could put on pressure towards bisu's main gateway concentration, and it was basically over.
Yes, protoss cannot cost-efficiently engage a full terran army. But they can get such an advantage before terran gets to that point that they end up having three different points for terran to attack, and then terran either needs to choose one of them (then toss can backstab with full army) or spread out to multiple points (at which point it's possible to engage again). I saw Flash winning today because he didn't make mistakes of significance and because Bisu made several crucial ones. It wasn't balance related.
thank you
and now the balance discussion really should stop at this point
1) Bisu did not lose this series because T>P or 200/200 mech is unbeatable; he lost it because he made sever mistakes 2) Racial imbalance alone does not exist; it depends on the maps; so saying T>P or Z>P is just stupid and obviously wrong
that is it for me...I m out now
I feel like some people just cant accept certain things (hi there TT1..)
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