EPT[ASL3] Ro16 Group D - Page 23
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
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hitthat
Poland2267 Posts
On May 09 2017 23:03 Maks wrote: Shameless terran apologists: bla bla bla Last and Flash are just to good; bla bla bla JD made a lot of mistakes; bla bla bla CB is the most balanced map ever created. Yep, its ridiculously balanced. Just look at this stats: Circuit Breaker TvZ: 166-115 (59.07%) [ Games ] JD didnt lose this particular game becouse of imbalance. He just got unlucky in few clashes, made few unfortunate decisions and that hurt him, becouse at this point, when terran ground power kicked off, he couldn't afford to cost inefectiveness becouse of his economy disadvantage. I do not even deny that T has small advantage over Z in most maps, but in this game it wasn't a deciding factor. Its one of those games when luck was a big one factor. The game was pretty equal from both sides. It's easy to call someone apologist when everything you have to say is throwing the numbers without telling anything about the game. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On May 09 2017 23:24 LRM)TechnicS wrote: I don't see anybody here saying Jaedong played perfectly. If anything - it is exactly the opposite + a guy offering him free lessons. Most people are dissecting Jaedong's ZvT, pointing to whatever mistakes they can think of like if they knew better than him. And no, the lurk/swarm drop wouldnt have had such a drastic effect as you describe even if Jaedong killed all scvs at these expos microing 1 lurker per exp while doing all else. If this is truly what you meant, this just shows to me that you are leaning towards being clueless in the high level ZvT/TvZ game. All it took was Last to pull his scvs immediately, instead these drops almost went unnoticed. On top of that the defiler on the natural of Last was alive well after the Lurker was killed. I am not saying Jaedong played perfectly, I am saying Last played pretty bad (for his level) and got away with a win. This is why the game went for so long and looked like Jaedong had a chance for a brief moment or two around that muta switch. Besides that moment, there wasn't any point in the game where I thought he is "so far so good for Jaedong" as Tasteless described wrongfully very early at exactly the moment Jaedong was surely behind, at least in my eyes. Jaedong had his great moments and weaknesses in the game, I might have some critiques in mind, but I am not necessarily certain they are all correct as I definitely don't consider my ZvT of higher level than his nor can I understand his subtle ingame struggles vs Top2 (at worst) TvZer at the moment. my comment wasn't even directed at you in the first place. Go back and read my first comment. I already stated there that both players made mistakes. I only pointed out these two situations to show that there are always improvements that can be made to Jaedong's game. | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On May 09 2017 23:34 BigFan wrote: my comment wasn't even directed at you in the first place. Go back and read my first comment. I already stated there that both players made mistakes. I only pointed out these two situations to show that there are always improvements that can be made to Jaedong's game. This exact situation shows that Last was AFK there while he should have been there (imo). This exact example shows that there is room for improvement for Last, not Jaedong here. edit: you can't micro 2 lurkers (with no attackupgrades) at two different bases vs possibly +1armor 60hp scvs, when the terran is on 6 bases, lol, have you ever played ZvT? | ||
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trutaCz
Poland686 Posts
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infinity2k17
22 Posts
On May 09 2017 19:27 LRM)TechnicS wrote: 8 minutes into the game - zerg at 60 limit, has a bunch of mutas and a bunch of lings, does nothing with them, terran's at 80 limit 14 minutes into the game - zerg at 100 limit, has a bunch of mutas and a bunch of lings and a defiler, does nothing with them, terran's at 200 limit that pretty much sums up the game I watched this game and didn't even understand what was happening.. JD defends the rush and kills 2 valks then he defends the harass and takes the other corner. Then there's a period where he does absolutely nothing - he doesn't clear mines he doesn't build anything except lings then tries to go ultra vs mech (when ssak is now on equal bases and maxes out with no pressure at all). The resource counter also broke, so what is the deal with this game? just rewatch the game (especially the minimap wth?) and after around 9:00 gametime he entirely backs off and does nothing. Edit: look at the game even from sSaks point of view. You go bunker rush -> bio/valk then add vult/tank and take an opposite corner and get to 200/200 with almost no pressure. You just got given the game because your opponent refuses to expand and keeps building muta/ling/defiler | ||
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Miragee
8584 Posts
On May 09 2017 22:07 quirinus wrote: Yeah, he would have used them to clear mines and keep vultures at bay. Yeah, he shouldn't have thrown away those. He also missed the opportunity to double expand because Last basically had no units to spare for an attack. Bleh, great game but JD made some big mistakes here. Letting the terran get up to 6 bases mech uncontested is already suicidal. But you can't throw away units like that on top of that. | ||
2Pacalypse-
Croatia9517 Posts
On May 09 2017 23:25 trutaCz wrote: A mistake might be an execution. For example : making wrong decisions with ur army. Take a look on it from the other side. Jaedong makes better fight and denies both top left bases and wins the game. Are you still going to say that his b.o was a mistake? Fair enough. Had he controlled those mutas better and denied Terran's reinforcements through the middle of a map, maybe he could've taken the top left base and wouldn't need those extra two min-only bases. Still, seems like a harder way to go about it. | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On May 09 2017 23:47 infinity2k17 wrote: I watched this game and didn't even understand what was happening.. JD defends the rush and kills 2 valks then he defends the harass and takes the other corner. Then there's a period where he does absolutely nothing - he doesn't clear mines he doesn't build anything except lings then tries to go ultra vs mech (when ssak is now on equal bases and maxes out with no pressure at all). The resource counter also broke, so what is the deal with this game? just rewatch the game (especially the minimap wth?) and after around 9:00 gametime he entirely backs off and does nothing. Didn't even watch the Last game because I looked at the vod and saw ultras and decided there was no point ZvT, this is what happened, lol. On a more serious note, seemingly Ssak made a perfect counter to what Jaedong was doing which was what it made it look this bad. I know it sounds silly to think that 2fac vultures (with more factories later) and 1port valkyries completely shuts off spire/fast 2evo for ling upgrades/fast defilers strat with zerg on 3/4 bases, but this must be the case. If this isn't the case I have no idea what happened. Don't miss on Jaedong vs Hero though. And Jaedong vs Last should be entertaining for the casual viewer's eye, so I guess watch that as well. | ||
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juvenal
2448 Posts
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iamho
United States3347 Posts
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Miragee
8584 Posts
Anyways, I died a little inside when JD dropped out. I felt like he played really well today and his multi-tasking was top-notch (much better than last season). It's always an uphill battle against those terran strategies (mech and those ugly valkyries)... On May 09 2017 23:58 LRM)TechnicS wrote: ZvT, this is what happened, lol. On a more serious note, seemingly Ssak made a perfect counter to what Jaedong was doing which was what it made it look this bad. I know it sounds silly to think that 2fac vultures (with more factories later) and 1port valkyries completely shuts off spire/fast 2evo for ling upgrades/fast defilers strat with zerg on 3/4 bases, but this must be the case. If this isn't the case I have no idea what happened. Don't miss on Jaedong vs Hero though. And Jaedong vs Last should be entertaining for the casual viewer's eye, so I guess watch that as well. ?? What's so bad about ultras? | ||
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hitthat
Poland2267 Posts
On May 10 2017 00:01 juvenal wrote: I kinda missed this sort of heated battles after a game day, shows how much people still care about this game still nowhere in salt level in comparison to this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/141499-msl-ro8-day-1?page=44 XD | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On May 10 2017 00:09 Miragee wrote: Looking at the Ro8 MU's, Last vs Flash should be interesting. I think Bisu will win vs Ssak. Ssak's TvP is just not that good. The only way he could win is if he pulls of some crazy strategies. Mong should roll over Shine. Soulkey vs Best might be interesting as well. I hope Soulkey wins, I want at least 1 zerg in the Ro4. Anyways, I died a little inside when JD dropped out. I felt like he played really well today and his multi-tasking was top-notch (much better than last season). It's always an uphill battle against those terran strategies (mech and those ugly valkyries)... ?? What's so bad about ultras? They are pretty good, if you have them. Jaedong didnt, at least vs ssak and at least not in meaningful numbers. (maybe there were one or two?) | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On May 09 2017 23:42 trutaCz wrote: And i think most of you guys just dont understand what jd's bo execution was planned for that game. He planned to go for 3/3 timing attack to deny both top left bases with overlord drops and constat reinforcing. But first of all the timing were bit off because of early game, where jd took some dmg and even tho later he managed to keep terran in his base for some time, his 3rd was still LATE. Once the speed and drop for ol timing is done(which is a bit late) he starts to be active on a map with drops and clear the way to the top left so he can execute his plan for the game. It still was very close to deny these both bases, but finally last defended them. From this point it's basically game over (huge advantage for last) i rewatched the game and i think your posts are pretty much in-line with what happened | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On May 10 2017 00:09 hitthat wrote: still nowhere in salt level in comparison to this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/141499-msl-ro8-day-1?page=44 XD So much passion in the old days... Makes me teary-eyed... | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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RJGooner
United States2076 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28703 Posts
His strategy during the mid game was fine, at that point he was dropping a lot, with defiler and lurker, but later on he stopped building any lurkers (despite last having few vessels) and that's just kinda stupid imo. swarm+lurker+ling+drop+scourge is where its at. Don't like the balance complains. Last is top 2 terran, Jaedong played a close and hard fought awesome game against him which really could have gone the other way. I thought both players were really impressive but Last even more so, good games.. I guess maybe the map pool can take some adjustment but.. I don't at all feel like this was a game where jaedong lost 'because of imbalance'. | ||
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mdb
Bulgaria4059 Posts
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