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On May 12 2017 16:56 O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2017 21:19 M2 wrote:
For me the biggest imbalance in TvZ (assuming there is one) is mid game where Terran can control the whole map with 0 risk with 2 controls M&M, there is nothing that Zerg can do to deal with that offensively, neither Mutas nor Lurkers can actually attack that, so Terrans take free bases as many as they want. I would assume that late game ZvT will look way more balanced if the Zerg can get there with the same economy. So, if I am right, Zerg needs some kind of boost mid game to be able to actually threaten Terrans. For example (and this is just a random example) if lurker burrow time is reduced, than maybe terrans will not be able to kite for free lings/lurks armies, while killing all the lurkers and losing none of their units. But again this is just an example. Zergs need some kind of offensive power vs Terrans mid game imo Not sure what level or situation you mean, but this seems completely wrong to me. If T moves out before SV, mutas will wreck T's base. Once SV's are out, T has map dominance until defilers come out. That's just how that matchup works. Problem as I see it is Z don't expand quickly or often enough. People speak of Z having problems securing a third on four player maps, and I would like to know when this suddenly became a problem. Z have secured thirds for 10+ years, and there was a time when Z wrecked P players when proper third base sim city-ing became a thing.
Z players are still wrecking P players with proper third base sim city - it's a different story vs Terran.
I do feel that Jaedong took a bit too long getting the 3rd base but on the other hand he didn't scout the 3rax until his mutas got to Last's base.
On the topic of TvZ imbalances: I feel like Zergs don't have as many options early game after the meta shifted even more towards Terrans getting an early center rax which does really well vs all early pool builds (4/5/9) as well as getting a BO win vs 3hatch before pool (except maybe in fringe cases).
On the other hand Terrans economic opening (14cc) pretty much only loses to the same builds that their aggressive opening is beating (4/5 pool or 9pool speed). And it just seems like Terran is more often able to run away with the advantage vs Zerg due to this early BO lead.
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On May 12 2017 16:56 O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2017 21:19 M2 wrote:
For me the biggest imbalance in TvZ (assuming there is one) is mid game where Terran can control the whole map with 0 risk with 2 controls M&M, there is nothing that Zerg can do to deal with that offensively, neither Mutas nor Lurkers can actually attack that, so Terrans take free bases as many as they want. I would assume that late game ZvT will look way more balanced if the Zerg can get there with the same economy. So, if I am right, Zerg needs some kind of boost mid game to be able to actually threaten Terrans. For example (and this is just a random example) if lurker burrow time is reduced, than maybe terrans will not be able to kite for free lings/lurks armies, while killing all the lurkers and losing none of their units. But again this is just an example. Zergs need some kind of offensive power vs Terrans mid game imo Not sure what level or situation you mean, but this seems completely wrong to me. If T moves out before SV, mutas will wreck T's base. Once SV's are out, T has map dominance until defilers come out. That's just how that matchup works. Problem as I see it is Z don't expand quickly or often enough. People speak of Z having problems securing a third on four player maps, and I would like to know when this suddenly became a problem. Z have secured thirds for 10+ years, and there was a time when Z wrecked P players when proper third base sim city-ing became a thing.
With modern TvZ, 5 rax is king. With the 5 rax, Terran is allowed to move out and shut down any expansions Zerg is putting up while muta harass is still going on. I hesitate to call it map control because Terran can't really expand either but they are free to move out essentially. Even if their initial group gets gobbled up by good mutaling control, their production allows them to continue pushing against the weakened mutas and shut down the 3rd. Obviously, this isn't foolproof and skilled Zerg players can still outmatch weaker Terran players but it's been an extremely strong strategy overall and against players of Flash and Last's calibur, it feels nigh unbeatable without stuff like cheese.
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Germany3128 Posts
Which game will be Played tomorrow? sSak's game or BeSt vs. SK?
Edit: According to K.H.J. posts about sSaks situation it's gonna be sSak vs. Bisu
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Watching Larva play I am completely sure JD just played bad in his game. Larva have things figured out.
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Did anyone else find it strange Jaedong in his game vs sSak, he sat at 1884 minerals, 1621 gas, 106/144 supply, 16 game-time minutes into the game?
I mean, sSak was outplaying him and had an advantage, but there seems to be no clear excuse. Is this statistic actually accurate? It surprised me.
Yes, he was trying to transition into ultras, yes he was lacking a macro hatch, yes he was struggling getting up a hatchery at the second base natural. But it just seems he phased out of it, assuming the UI thingy that tracks these numbers is accurate.
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I think JD had an off day regarding macro. Both games vs terran he was very passive, and still seemed sort of behind in macro
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Overmins/gas does not matter to ZvT, only whether you are behind base and map control. You can basically defend with a few lurkers/defilers anything terran has in mid game. What you gain from having a bank even at such a supply is that you can more readily react to what terran will do next. Since you can also bank larva, this isn't an issue. An issue it is in ZvZ and ZvP, but not ZvT unless you have to Sauron zerg, which JD was in no position to.
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On May 14 2017 01:15 duke91 wrote:
Overmins/gas does not matter to ZvT, only whether you are behind base and map control. You can basically defend with a few lurkers/defilers anything terran has in mid game. What you gain from having a bank even at such a supply is that you can more readily react to what terran will do next. Since you can also bank larva, this isn't an issue. An issue it is in ZvZ and ZvP, but not ZvT unless you have to Sauron zerg, which JD was in no position to.
Surely un-used minerals and gas matters, especially when you have enough to set two extra bases with couple lurks and defiler. Macro is pretty damn important. Building a bank should always come only after hitting 200.
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ZvT has been imbalanced since the "end" of BW and it only looks worse now..
The mapmakers could fix it but they don't...
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Watched this yesterday, just wow Shine, you didn't disappoint! Sick play, amazing Bo5  .
Edit : woops, this is a fail, wrong thread.
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EPT
