EPT[ASL3] Ro16 Group D - Page 27
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-NegativeZero-
United States2142 Posts
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1717 Posts
On May 10 2017 11:01 darktreb wrote: As you noted, it's possible for both to be true! But in all seriousness, ZvP has also been super broken for long periods of time (just not today), and Protoss has had by far the least success overall. But everyone else turns on Protoss players when they complain =P Haha, sad but true... It's been suggested the reason Terran has seen so much success, especially pre-Bisu (in other words, pre modern BW), was because there aint enuf Protoss getting far in tournaments. They were having too much difficulty getting past the Zergs. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On May 10 2017 10:10 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Back in the day thats pretty much how it was. Map makers would make maps, who already understood the meta and how to work subtle changes, and then the pros would play it and address it. Things might be a bit more amateur now but im sure a similar thing happens and will happen with the introduction of new maps.+ Yeah, map design is definitely the way to go at first here. The challenge is that it will really take a whole lot of efforts, imagination, headaches and possibly luck for the teams of players and mapmakers to succeed in creating the desired maps. It really should involve a lot of collaboration between the players and the mapmakers imo. | ||
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Terrorbladder
2750 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
But I assume the meta has changed since then? Bio to mech switch being safer and deadlier? How much does Terran mech play dependent on maps? Would really appreciate if someone could give me a history lesson on dirty/disgusting Terran mech v Zerg  | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4179 Posts
On May 10 2017 11:39 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: Haha, sad but true... It's been suggested the reason Terran has seen so much success, especially pre-Bisu (in other words, pre modern BW), was because there aint enuf Protoss getting far in tournaments. They were having too much difficulty getting past the Zergs. After reading this thread I conclude Zergs are the whiniest race in BW. Soulkey wins an epic game vs Flash --> Zerg players be like meh Flash fucked up JD loses an epic game vs Last --> omg Terran imba how is Zerg supposed to play vs that. If you have been following classicyellow's stats Flash and Last have been top 1-2 terran for ages and JD's ZvT is nowhere near good enough to beat them yet. | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On May 10 2017 10:56 darktreb wrote: I concede that the decision to back off in the middle of a crazy game is not an easy one, especially lacking full vision. The specific moment I think he needed to reconsider was when we he moved into the top left with only ~8 Mutas left, and there was a couple Goliaths, a few Factories, and a couple Turrets still. Without lings coming in (which he did not have), there was no circumstance in which staying there was going to be beneficial. But, it's still a very hard spur of the moment decision. In this specific moment that you describe, whatever decision Jaedong or any zerg in his place would have took for these 8-10 mutas left, imho, would not have changed the winner of the game nor would have impacted the zerg player's chances of winning the game significantly. Claiming that Effort, Soulkey, Zero, Hero, Larva wins the game from then on while Jaedong in actuality didn't is (no offense but) borderline fairy-tale talk. On May 10 2017 10:56 darktreb wrote: ...Come on man - you're gonna quote me except also cut off the second half of what I said? That's intellectually dishonest. I said relative to how he is one of the greatest players of all time. Jaedong's game sense is ... Sure, prove it. | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On May 10 2017 12:18 Terrorbladder wrote: if you want some maps skewed against T just make 3p maps then. Other races just take the 3rd main+nat faster -> terran can't split map -> 1 main vs 2 mains late game -> T automatically has <50% to win every time No, it should slightly favour z over t, p over z and t over p simultaneously... I think... | ||
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zaMNal
Mongolia385 Posts
Zerg 1-8 Terran soulkey 0:1 mong hero 0:1 ssak hyun 0:1 last larva 0:1 last hyun 0:1 flash shine 0:1 flash effort 1:0 sea jaedong 0:1 ssak jaedong 0:1 last edit: Will probably be something like 2-11 (shine 1:3 mong) or 3-15 (soulkey 1:3 flash/last) at the end of the season. | ||
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ZeroChrome
Canada1001 Posts
On May 10 2017 14:03 zaMNal wrote: ASL season 3 ZvT stats (ro24 and ro16): Zerg 1-8 Terran soulkey 0:1 mong hero 0:1 ssak hyun 0:1 last larva 0:1 last hyun 0:1 flash shine 0:1 flash effort 1:0 sea jaedong 0:1 ssak jaedong 0:1 last edit: Will probably be something like 2-11 (shine 1:3 mong) or 3-15 (soulkey 1:3 flash/last) at the end of the season. Also Zerg 10-2 Protoss | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On May 10 2017 11:30 -NegativeZero- wrote: has anyone ever thought of doing a "community PTR" using modified maps to test these ideas for balance changes in-game? I doubt there's enough interest from players to actually do solid testing. Players have to spend time doing other stuff. Same problem with SC2 PTR. No one will actually invest time into it. On May 10 2017 12:41 RKC wrote: Been doing some research, and dug out the games of Fantasy v GGPlay in 2008 Incruit OSL. Insane set of games! So jaw-dropping seeing Terran rush to fac + port + armoury versus Zerg (as opposed to versus Protoss). But I assume the meta has changed since then? Bio to mech switch being safer and deadlier? How much does Terran mech play dependent on maps? Would really appreciate if someone could give me a history lesson on dirty/disgusting Terran mech v Zerg Fantasy started a phase of direct to mech play back in around 2009 I think iirc. But Zerg's solved it essentially. Direct mech is too slow to begin with. | ||
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Gak2
Canada418 Posts
On May 10 2017 02:41 darktreb wrote: People are making this into a false dichotomy between "BW is perfectly balanced on every map" and "JD deserved to lose for not playing perfectly". TvZ probably isn't "perfectly" balanced right now. Jaedong didn't play that great, especially past the 20 minute mark. Both can be true - I think both are true. What's definitely true is that Jaedong could have won this game had he played better, and not in "everything perfect god mode" ways, but in ways that are completely reasonable to expect for an elite Zerg player. I bet Effort, Soulkey, Zero, perhaps hero, and perhaps Larva (when not on stage) win that game if they get into the position Jaedong did right after the late game Muta switch. Nobody thinks BW is balanced on every map. But better players can beat worse players most of the time, on most maps. The thing is though, Last is the better player right now. Using this of all games as the prime example of TvZ imba is asinine. There are so many better examples. I've been watching Jaedong since 2006. One of Jaedong's weaknesses has always been his propensity for aggression (which is also one of his greatest strengths), and relatively mediocre game sense / late game decision making for a person who is probably the second greatest player of all time. Jaedong generally wins off of a combination of hyper aggression, and amazing mechanics. He was always able to scrape advantages other players couldn't, both because they didn't have the mechanics, and because they didn't have the balls. The problem is this playstyle is so damn effective that Jaedong never developed quite as good of "sloppy game" game sense. He still won a ton of these games because he was almost always the better player, and superior mechanics and killer instinct are still worth a lot in a sloppy game. But as soon as it looks like "attack attack attack" will work, his natural instinct is to go with that route, even if there's a better route. In this game, that situation came up after the Muta switch. He got a lot of value out of the Mutas, but he could have gotten FAR more value out of them by keeping them alive instead of throwing them away at the top left. If he keeps ~10 Mutas alive and harasses / flanks with them constantly, while taking both mineral only bases and perhaps even 3 o'clock, then he probably wins. This would have been Soulkey's instinct, and probably Effort's and Larva's as well. This is the stable way to win ZvT on Circuit Breaker once you have a brief late game advantage, because if you take both Mineral only bases, not only is the 6 o'clock gas buffered a bit, but each harass is proportionally less damaging for the very straightforward reason that when an expo is harassed when you're on 6-7 base, it's less damaging than when you're on 4-5 base. Once Jaedong lost the Mutas, all of a sudden Last could again march all the way down to the high ground outside of one of the mineral only bases. There was very little flanking, partly because Jaedong couldn't afford it having burned like 2000 / 2000 on Mutas. For all of Jaedong's great Lurker drop harass in the beginning of the late game, where was a Defiler and a Lurker under swarm to interrupt the flow of Terran units? All of this is very hard to do, but what is also getting ignored is how great Last played after the 20 minute mark. It definitely wasn't a great game by him in the first 20 minutes, but whereas a lot of Terrans would have crumbled or gotten passive, Last kept pumping out units and kept going to the high ground. It's really scary to move out as Terran when you don't have the full death ball put together, but Last kept doing it super effectively (though again would have been less effective with the threat of Mutas). Also, while Vultures are super strong, it does take a ton of work to lay mines over and over again. This is why the mineral only bases on CB benefit Zerg more than Terran. For Zerg, it just means infinity cracklings, which take very little effort to use. You can throw 6-24 cracklings at some expo on A-move in the late game and there's a decent chance they do damage. Sure they might all blow up to one mine, but Terran has to keep laying those mines. Problem is, Jaedong just never stabilized those mineral-only bases, in spite of the advantage they provide for Zerg in late game ZvT. Now you might say, "Jaedong badly wanted to kill top left, because if he doesn't it's really hard". I agree. But throwing Mutas only doesn't work. Mutas do like no damage to buildings, and as long as there are a few Factories up there, eventually enough 3-3 Goliaths will pop. It's like in PvT, as soon as the Zealots die, pull back the Dragoons. Here, as soon as you're down to just Mutas, pull them back because they are 10x more valuable as harass / flank / just being annoying, than slowing chipping away at Factories while Goliaths come out 3 at a time. This is a very straightforward concept. I'm not saying I "know better" than Jaedong - he surely knows this too, but his attack instincts are just too much sometimes in the heat of a game. Wow I agree with everything you said. I'd like to add that I think Soulkey vs Flash pretty much proved that you don't have to be on even bases with terran when they're in mech mode. Zerg seems to be able to go full sauron on 4 or 5 bases anyway, and adding more just gives additional avenues for vultures to harass. Once terran gets more bases, zerg has to really exploit the 2 weaknesses I see in mech: rebuilding siege tanks takes pretty damn long, and multipronged harass/attacks are very hard to handle. The muta switch is such a powerful card in a zerg's hand that I don't think there's any reason to not get +1 air attacks which is super cheap. Maybe +2 even. 3/3 tanks have 4 armor, which makes unupgraded mutas do 5 damage. +1 is +20% damage in that case. Jaedong would've cleaned up much faster when he did his tech switch. I agree with you that he shouldn't have thrown away his mutas on the top left. But the main reason this didnt work was because he had no reinforcements. This is because Last was brilliantly intercepting the reinforcements with vultures, and kiting them into spider mines. What was left of jaedongs reinforcements was like 2 heavily damaged ultras and a pitiful amount of zerglings (artosis mistakenly thought this was gonna be a huge army). This is definitely where jaedong lost the game. If you check, he went from 140 to 100 supply here. Speaking of which, it was spider mines that seemed to be Jaedong's bane today. I think zergs need to perfect clearing mines because terrans are very good at mining the map any chance they get. I think a handful of mutas (maybe 5) on permanent vulture/spider mine duty is necessary. Soulkey did something like this vs Flash, where his mutas lived for most of the game and they kept doing work. Furthermore, overlord drops just bypass mines entirely, so I'm glad we're seeing them more and more but I think they can be further abused. Eventually, I'd like to see multi pronged overlord attacks + macroing a new army + sending overlords back + loading up the new army + reinforcing, which seems very APM intensive but i'm sure the koreans can do it. All in all, I really don't think TvZ mech is imbalanced right now. Zergs just need to decisively figure out how to handle it, and practice execution. The only thing I think might still be imbalanced in TvZ is the difficult of holding a 3rd for zerg I think Shine vs Flash showed a very promising build against it but that's another topic | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
Jaedong made a lot of mistakes yeah. Literally every Starcraft player will make mistakes. Soulkey played a great game against Flash. Yes that happened. But you look at overall win rate and it's still TvZ Terran favoured. You can't say "It's balanced fine because Jaedong could have played better". Of course he could have. But that doesn't mean the matchup's balanced. And yes, ZvP is Zerg favoured, I don't think anyone's denying that. | ||
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Farkinator
United States283 Posts
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YASHSHAKAR
United States75 Posts
On May 10 2017 01:56 TheNewEra wrote: you think Mong or sSak are going to get to the final over Bisu? As much I was impressed by Mong from day 3, i wouldnt bet money on him beating Bisu if they faced off. However, both players are in top form. I love R8 Bo5 format because we really get to witness the clash of minds. The dominant player will usually show forth in the end. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On May 10 2017 15:15 Farkinator wrote: This thread really reminds me of the Korean Map Stats blog by artosis, but without incontrol and nony careening in to completely derail the discussion. So this InControl chap tends to get out of control? | ||
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YASHSHAKAR
United States75 Posts
This... We had TONS of toss when this thing started.. Many have failed Aiur, and have succumed to the zerg swarm. But now that "The day of the terrans" has just taken place, there might actually be hope for the vegabond race after all. Best would have to defeat soulkey first tho. And Bisu lol well.. Bisus gonna bisu.. Cant wait to see more action! | ||
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Terrorbladder
2750 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
On May 10 2017 14:44 neobowman wrote: I doubt there's enough interest from players to actually do solid testing. Players have to spend time doing other stuff. Same problem with SC2 PTR. No one will actually invest time into it. Fantasy started a phase of direct to mech play back in around 2009 I think iirc. But Zerg's solved it essentially. Direct mech is too slow to begin with. How did Zergs solve it? Go 2base hydra or muta? How is bio-mech better than pure mech? (Sorry about the stream of questions, really curious to know!) | ||
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Terrorbladder
2750 Posts
On May 10 2017 17:10 RKC wrote: They'll go greedy, so when Terran maxes out with a pure mech army Zerg is already sitting behind 5 bases and can Sauron Zerg the T to death. That's what I remember from watching in Kespa days. Bio-mech is better because a MnM army is more mobile and T won't have to cede map control to Z (mech is slow, no map control from beginning). Having a bio army roaming around the map keeps Z's 3rd timing in check and also means Z will need to spend gas on building Mutas and Lurkers -> cost the Z more gasHow did Zergs solve it? Go 2base hydra or muta? How is bio-mech better than pure mech? (Sorry about the stream of questions, really curious to know!) | ||
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