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On May 10 2017 18:07 Terrorbladder wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2017 17:10 RKC wrote:On May 10 2017 14:44 neobowman wrote:On May 10 2017 11:30 -NegativeZero- wrote:
has anyone ever thought of doing a "community PTR" using modified maps to test these ideas for balance changes in-game? I doubt there's enough interest from players to actually do solid testing. Players have to spend time doing other stuff. Same problem with SC2 PTR. No one will actually invest time into it. On May 10 2017 12:41 RKC wrote:Been doing some research, and dug out the games of Fantasy v GGPlay in 2008 Incruit OSL. Insane set of games! So jaw-dropping seeing Terran rush to fac + port + armoury versus Zerg (as opposed to versus Protoss). But I assume the meta has changed since then? Bio to mech switch being safer and deadlier? How much does Terran mech play dependent on maps? Would really appreciate if someone could give me a history lesson on dirty/disgusting Terran mech v Zerg  Fantasy started a phase of direct to mech play back in around 2009 I think iirc. But Zerg's solved it essentially. Direct mech is too slow to begin with. How did Zergs solve it? Go 2base hydra or muta? How is bio-mech better than pure mech? (Sorry about the stream of questions, really curious to know!) They'll go greedy, so when Terran maxes out with a pure mech army Zerg is already sitting behind 5 bases and can Sauron Zerg the T to death. That's what I remember from watching in Kespa days. Bio-mech is better because a MnM army is more mobile and T won't have to cede map control to Z (mech is slow, no map control from beginning). Having a bio army roaming around the map keeps Z's 3rd timing in check and also means Z will need to spend gas on building Mutas and Lurkers -> cost the Z more gas
2-base muta can also wreck a meching terran pretty hard. T won't have enough stuff when the mutas pop.
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On May 10 2017 14:44 neobowman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2017 12:41 RKC wrote:Been doing some research, and dug out the games of Fantasy v GGPlay in 2008 Incruit OSL. Insane set of games! So jaw-dropping seeing Terran rush to fac + port + armoury versus Zerg (as opposed to versus Protoss). But I assume the meta has changed since then? Bio to mech switch being safer and deadlier? How much does Terran mech play dependent on maps? Would really appreciate if someone could give me a history lesson on dirty/disgusting Terran mech v Zerg Fantasy started a phase of direct to mech play back in around 2009 I think iirc. But Zerg's solved it essentially. Direct mech is too slow to begin with.
Ironicaly he also started a phase of mech switch (his game against Zero), wich was probably though as reversal of "fake mech" strat than, but evolved into current metagame.
Also direct "pure mech" is relable, but it requires good map and insanely good skills in responding to enemy moves. Few terrans actually had that.
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What's with the schedule on TL? did this really start nine minutes ago.
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Germany3128 Posts
On May 10 2017 19:09 Akara12345 wrote:
What's with the schedule on TL? did this really start nine minutes ago.
wrong forum, wrong event
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Looking at the quarterfinals, bottom bracket looks pretty stacked, while Bisu should reach final from the top bracket
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On May 10 2017 19:03 hitthat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2017 14:44 neobowman wrote:On May 10 2017 12:41 RKC wrote:Been doing some research, and dug out the games of Fantasy v GGPlay in 2008 Incruit OSL. Insane set of games! So jaw-dropping seeing Terran rush to fac + port + armoury versus Zerg (as opposed to versus Protoss). But I assume the meta has changed since then? Bio to mech switch being safer and deadlier? How much does Terran mech play dependent on maps? Would really appreciate if someone could give me a history lesson on dirty/disgusting Terran mech v Zerg Fantasy started a phase of direct to mech play back in around 2009 I think iirc. But Zerg's solved it essentially. Direct mech is too slow to begin with. Ironicaly he also started a phase of mech switch (his game against Zero), wich was probably though as reversal of "fake mech" strat than, but evolved into current metagame. Also direct "pure mech" is relable, but it requires good map and insanely good skills in responding to enemy moves. Few terrans actually had that.
Wow, seems like Fantasy was quite the Revolutionist! 
Would be great to have him back in BW...
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The final game was epic! Well worth a watch.
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On May 10 2017 19:03 hitthat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2017 14:44 neobowman wrote:On May 10 2017 12:41 RKC wrote:Been doing some research, and dug out the games of Fantasy v GGPlay in 2008 Incruit OSL. Insane set of games! So jaw-dropping seeing Terran rush to fac + port + armoury versus Zerg (as opposed to versus Protoss). But I assume the meta has changed since then? Bio to mech switch being safer and deadlier? How much does Terran mech play dependent on maps? Would really appreciate if someone could give me a history lesson on dirty/disgusting Terran mech v Zerg Fantasy started a phase of direct to mech play back in around 2009 I think iirc. But Zerg's solved it essentially. Direct mech is too slow to begin with. Ironicaly he also started a phase of mech switch (his game against Zero), wich was probably though as reversal of "fake mech" strat than, but evolved into current metagame. Also direct "pure mech" is relable, but it requires good map and insanely good skills in responding to enemy moves. Few terrans actually had that.
also the big change (that i see, at least) is that fantasy eased the tech curve from bio to mech without relinquishing map contrl via the use of vultures and not giving time for the zerg to go for queen+spawn broodling
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Damn, what a great game (JD vs Last) even though my boy lost. Really seems TvZ is all about bio then transition into mech. Seems like a safe "slowly but surely" win for them, which can lead to some exciting games at least! I hope Zergs find a timing window or think of something soon!
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On May 10 2017 06:33 Liquid`Drone wrote:
4: I think the flash vs soulkey game showcased that zerg has options. Because that was not a game where flash fucked up. It was a game where soulkey played absolutely brilliantly, and I think if more zergs played at the level he did in that game, then I honestly have a really hard time seeing how terrans can maintain positive winning ratios.
Nah, late mech TvZ is not that flawed. Its more even than late bio, at last. At last losing SV's ball on random scourge attacks is not a death sentence in the face of defilers and ultralisks.
(unless it was a praise of SK play in that game, not assumption that late mech is in fact bad. In that case, I have to agree. Its difficult to pulled of that level of play and actually few can)
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For me the biggest imbalance in TvZ (assuming there is one) is mid game where Terran can control the whole map with 0 risk with 2 controls M&M, there is nothing that Zerg can do to deal with that offensively, neither Mutas nor Lurkers can actually attack that, so Terrans take free bases as many as they want. I would assume that late game ZvT will look way more balanced if the Zerg can get there with the same economy. So, if I am right, Zerg needs some kind of boost mid game to be able to actually threaten Terrans. For example (and this is just a random example) if lurker burrow time is reduced, than maybe terrans will not be able to kite for free lings/lurks armies, while killing all the lurkers and losing none of their units. But again this is just an example. Zergs need some kind of offensive power vs Terrans mid game imo
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Norway28780 Posts
On May 11 2017 17:45 hitthat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2017 06:33 Liquid`Drone wrote:
4: I think the flash vs soulkey game showcased that zerg has options. Because that was not a game where flash fucked up. It was a game where soulkey played absolutely brilliantly, and I think if more zergs played at the level he did in that game, then I honestly have a really hard time seeing how terrans can maintain positive winning ratios.
Nah, late mech TvZ is not that flawed. Its more even than late bio, at last. At last losing SV's ball on random scourge attacks is not a death sentence in the face of defilers and ultralisks. (unless it was a praise of SK play in that game, not assumption that late mech is in fact bad. In that case, I have to agree. Its difficult to pulled of that level of play and actually few can)
Entirely the second part. Late game mech is incredibly difficult to play against, but I think playing late game mech against someone playing as well as soulkey did, is equally as hard.
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On May 11 2017 21:34 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2017 17:45 hitthat wrote:On May 10 2017 06:33 Liquid`Drone wrote:
4: I think the flash vs soulkey game showcased that zerg has options. Because that was not a game where flash fucked up. It was a game where soulkey played absolutely brilliantly, and I think if more zergs played at the level he did in that game, then I honestly have a really hard time seeing how terrans can maintain positive winning ratios.
Nah, late mech TvZ is not that flawed. Its more even than late bio, at last. At last losing SV's ball on random scourge attacks is not a death sentence in the face of defilers and ultralisks. (unless it was a praise of SK play in that game, not assumption that late mech is in fact bad. In that case, I have to agree. Its difficult to pulled of that level of play and actually few can) Entirely the second part. Late game mech is incredibly difficult to play against, but I think playing late game mech against someone playing as well as soulkey did, is equally as hard.
Didnt see the game between Flash and SK. Which game was it? Can you link it maybe?
Thanks
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Japan11286 Posts
On May 11 2017 21:52 3z3ki3l wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2017 21:34 Liquid`Drone wrote:On May 11 2017 17:45 hitthat wrote:On May 10 2017 06:33 Liquid`Drone wrote:
4: I think the flash vs soulkey game showcased that zerg has options. Because that was not a game where flash fucked up. It was a game where soulkey played absolutely brilliantly, and I think if more zergs played at the level he did in that game, then I honestly have a really hard time seeing how terrans can maintain positive winning ratios.
Nah, late mech TvZ is not that flawed. Its more even than late bio, at last. At last losing SV's ball on random scourge attacks is not a death sentence in the face of defilers and ultralisks. (unless it was a praise of SK play in that game, not assumption that late mech is in fact bad. In that case, I have to agree. Its difficult to pulled of that level of play and actually few can) Entirely the second part. Late game mech is incredibly difficult to play against, but I think playing late game mech against someone playing as well as soulkey did, is equally as hard. Didnt see the game between Flash and SK. Which game was it? Can you link it maybe? Thanks
It was posted right here
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=26497342
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Burned Toast
Canada2040 Posts
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You guys should check out Larva's stream, he has been beating Flash and Last's late game mech on CB consistently.
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On May 11 2017 21:19 M2 wrote:
For me the biggest imbalance in TvZ (assuming there is one) is mid game where Terran can control the whole map with 0 risk with 2 controls M&M, there is nothing that Zerg can do to deal with that offensively, neither Mutas nor Lurkers can actually attack that, so Terrans take free bases as many as they want. I would assume that late game ZvT will look way more balanced if the Zerg can get there with the same economy. So, if I am right, Zerg needs some kind of boost mid game to be able to actually threaten Terrans. For example (and this is just a random example) if lurker burrow time is reduced, than maybe terrans will not be able to kite for free lings/lurks armies, while killing all the lurkers and losing none of their units. But again this is just an example. Zergs need some kind of offensive power vs Terrans mid game imo
While this is problem, it's just one of many that slightly push the balance towards Terran. If the map control issue you're talking about wasn't there, then Zergs would have a much better time. But the same could be said if Zerg could take their 3rd gases a bit more easily. Or if they weren't so entirely reliant on defilers. The key isn't identifying the biggest imbalance, but finding ways to adjust a number of them slightly so that Zergs have a slightly easier time.
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When will be played the Ro8 the rest of the ASL? Strangely enough, I can't find the information anywhere
Edit : Thanks killer1nz !
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On May 11 2017 21:19 M2 wrote:
For me the biggest imbalance in TvZ (assuming there is one) is mid game where Terran can control the whole map with 0 risk with 2 controls M&M, there is nothing that Zerg can do to deal with that offensively, neither Mutas nor Lurkers can actually attack that, so Terrans take free bases as many as they want. I would assume that late game ZvT will look way more balanced if the Zerg can get there with the same economy. So, if I am right, Zerg needs some kind of boost mid game to be able to actually threaten Terrans. For example (and this is just a random example) if lurker burrow time is reduced, than maybe terrans will not be able to kite for free lings/lurks armies, while killing all the lurkers and losing none of their units. But again this is just an example. Zergs need some kind of offensive power vs Terrans mid game imo
Not sure what level or situation you mean, but this seems completely wrong to me. If T moves out before SV, mutas will wreck T's base. Once SV's are out, T has map dominance until defilers come out. That's just how that matchup works.
Problem as I see it is Z don't expand quickly or often enough. People speak of Z having problems securing a third on four player maps, and I would like to know when this suddenly became a problem. Z have secured thirds for 10+ years, and there was a time when Z wrecked P players when proper third base sim city-ing became a thing.
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EPT
