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Afreeca Starleague Season 3
Afreeca Starleague Season 3![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZpDsafx.png)
Casters & Hosts
Streams
AfreecaTV (FlashFTW and EsportsJohn)
Twitch TV (Tasteless and Artosis)
ASL Youtube Channel with both English and Korean Stream
[ASL3] Ro16 Group D
| Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments |
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
AfreecaTV (FlashFTW and EsportsJohn) Twitch TV (Tasteless and Artosis) ASL Youtube Channel with both English and Korean Stream | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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tommya
Canada52 Posts
jokes aside tho after the games are over, are they going to draw for the ro8? + do u think they will announce ro8/quarterfinals date? | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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Epithet
United States840 Posts
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Zera
Lithuania716 Posts
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
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zion
Belgium31 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On May 09 2017 18:34 Sawamura wrote: Thank you esport john for the live thread. On May 09 2017 18:39 Epithet wrote: Lets go Tyrant! Thanks for the well-done LR No problem! Jaedong and Last are expected to advance, but my gut tells me that sSak is going to pull off an amazing upset. Sidenote: FlashFTW is sick tonight, so I will be attempting to solo cast tonight. Please be kind <3. | ||
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Zera
Lithuania716 Posts
On May 09 2017 18:50 EsportsJohn wrote: No problem! Jaedong and Last are expected to advance, but my gut tells me that sSak is going to pull off an amazing upset. Sidenote: FlashFTW is sick tonight, so I will be attempting to solo cast tonight. Please be kind <3. I didn't even knew you were casting. Will deffinetely tune in! Edit: it doesn't work... it used to just fine :/ | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On May 09 2017 18:52 Zera wrote: I didn't even knew you were casting. Will deffinetely tune in! Edit: it doesn't work... it used to just fine :/ http://afreeca.tv/asl2eng2 This stream? It seems fine on my end. Does the stream not load at all? | ||
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Esp1noza
Russian Federation481 Posts
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/riptide/proleague200809/pl_sf_jaedongstare.jpg) the jaedong i dont want: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/T9i3HZR.jpg) please jaedong.... you can do it!!!!! | ||
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Zera
Lithuania716 Posts
On May 09 2017 18:56 EsportsJohn wrote: http://afreeca.tv/asl2eng2 This stream? It seems fine on my end. Does the stream not load at all? Nope. It says: "Press to enable Adobe Flash Player". But pressing it doesn't do anything. Edit: fixed it. For some reason afreeca.tv was blocked by Chrome to run Flash player. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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Piste
6167 Posts
On May 09 2017 18:57 Zera wrote: Nope. It says: "Press to enable Adobe Flash Player". But pressing it doesn't do anything. Use can switch to HTML5 player from settings in the bottom right of the player. | ||
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Esp1noza
Russian Federation481 Posts
On May 09 2017 18:57 Zera wrote: Nope. It says: "Press to enable Adobe Flash Player". But pressing it doesn't do anything. Try it with another browser. Works fine in Firefox. | ||
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Breach_hu
Hungary2431 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On May 09 2017 19:04 RKC wrote: Jaedong better finish first, not second... otherwise we'll have Flash v Bisu/Best/Jaedong in RO8  chances are that he'll play against Last in winners' then, gonna be really tough for him. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
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Zera
Lithuania716 Posts
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
Wait, it's back! Oh yeah tonight is still 1.18, Ro8 is back on 1.16 | ||
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RHoudini
Belgium3626 Posts
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Epithet
United States840 Posts
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HalcyonRain
United States124 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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Nyarly
France1030 Posts
Anyway, if a foreigner wanted to cheer for JD in korea for the finals. How would he do please ? | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/N7oIV.gif) | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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Epithet
United States840 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/flamewheel/sadsheep.gif) | ||
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Terrorbladder
2713 Posts
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True_Spike
Poland3414 Posts
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Reptilia
Chile913 Posts
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Keniji
Netherlands2569 Posts
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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marcesr
Germany1383 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On May 09 2017 19:25 True_Spike wrote: Great game by Ssak How so? All he did is mass vultures and lose tons of valks. JD couldn't even clear the mine field. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10329 Posts
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HalcyonRain
United States124 Posts
edit: I know it's fixed in ro8 but still just so dumb. 1.18 has never been stable. | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
14 minutes into the game - zerg at 100 limit, has a bunch of mutas and a bunch of lings and a defiler, does nothing with them, terran's at 200 limit that pretty much sums up the game | ||
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Terrorbladder
2713 Posts
You've got Jaedong, Last, Hero (who's also a Starleague winner) in it. | ||
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1706 Posts
Gonna brag now that i LB'd ssak just coz I felt he was gonna do well :p | ||
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
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TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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KenZy
France92 Posts
GL hero and Jaedong, you will need it. | ||
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shabby
Norway6402 Posts
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Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On May 09 2017 19:28 gngfn wrote: Great build by Ssak but Jaedong's play was so passive. That might work against SK Terran on this map but it didn't feel like the right response this time Terrans: Zerg play so passive. Meanwhile there are 500 mines outside and you can't even move out. | ||
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sertas
Sweden879 Posts
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Vuk_91
Serbia1690 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2713 Posts
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On May 09 2017 19:31 duke91 wrote: Terrans: Zerg play so passive. Meanwhile there are 500 mines outside and you can't even move out. Yeah pretty much, and with all the valks it was almost impossible to clear them cost effectively to begin with... | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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marcesr
Germany1383 Posts
On May 09 2017 19:31 Bakuryu wrote: this felt like jaedong fell asleep mid-lategame for 6 minutes Exactly my thought! Idling drones, idling mutas, send in all lings, use defilers 10 sec later. I hardly remember seeing such a game from Jaedong before. | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On May 09 2017 19:34 marcesr wrote: Exactly my thought! Idling drones, idling mutas, send in all lings, use defilers 10 sec later. I hardly remember seeing such a game from Jaedong before. is it possible, as far fetched as it is, that it's nerves or something? He was stressed at the group ceremony towards the end. | ||
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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Vuk_91
Serbia1690 Posts
On May 09 2017 19:34 ortseam wrote: The units he had just couldn't do anything, Ssak controlled the game from start to finish What are you talking about, Jaedong was in a great position after the defended the 8rax + killed 2 Valks. | ||
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2713 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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xM(Z
Romania5277 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
On May 09 2017 19:27 HalcyonRain wrote: pretty abusive, even worse is that it's on 1.18 and we'll never know, unless he tells us, if the patch adversely affected Jaedong's play. The decision to force ASL to switch was just so stupid... edit: I know it's fixed in ro8 but still just so dumb. 1.18 has never been stable. this is bullsh*t yo,on top of that they released a fix yesterday,(before that it was working very good)now is perfect,and this is played on Lan.its very funny that most of people complaining on this forum no even tested it in first person facepalm. | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
On May 09 2017 19:35 Katsuge wrote: he had a window to push out with speed hydras + OLS but he decided to sit back to mine up while ssak just mined all over the map... he had a window to push with hydras,do you even play BW ? LOL | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
On May 09 2017 19:46 SCC-Faust wrote: I am so depressed guys. dont be,Last in losser match = rip jaedong,atleast he has a chance now -_- | ||
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
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HalcyonRain
United States124 Posts
On May 09 2017 19:44 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: this is bullsh*t yo,on top of that they released a fix yesterday,(before that it was working very good)now is perfect,and this is played on Lan.its very funny that most of people complaining on this forum no even tested it in first person facepalm. Glad it's working for you, but for me there's still hotkey problems. Maybe their games work fine too, but either way you just don't force a tournament to switch patches mid tournament. Just a bad idea. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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HalcyonRain
United States124 Posts
On May 09 2017 19:48 duke91 wrote: At least zerg avoid Camelot ZvT LOL There's some positive thinking | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
On May 09 2017 19:44 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: this is bullsh*t yo,on top of that they released a fix yesterday,(before that it was working very good)now is perfect,and this is played on Lan.its very funny that most of people complaining on this forum no even tested it in first person facepalm. Regardless of facts, isn't blaming blizzard for your favorite player's loss the right thing to do? | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
On May 09 2017 19:50 nojok wrote: Regardless of facts, isn't blaming blizzard for your favorite player's loss the right thing to do? except that my favorite player stated that he prefered 1.18 and not 1.16 | ||
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
On May 09 2017 19:46 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: he had a window to push with hydras,do you even play BW ? LOL def watched more professional BW than u | ||
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TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
On May 09 2017 19:27 HalcyonRain wrote: pretty abusive, even worse is that it's on 1.18 and we'll never know, unless he tells us, if the patch adversely affected Jaedong's play. The decision to force ASL to switch was just so stupid... edit: I know it's fixed in ro8 but still just so dumb. 1.18 has never been stable. Considering that sSak is currently a better player than JD: Would you have made the exact same post about the patch affecting sSak if sSak would have lost? | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
On May 09 2017 19:48 HalcyonRain wrote: Glad it's working for you, but for me there's still hotkey problems. Maybe their games work fine too, but either way you just don't force a tournament to switch patches mid tournament. Just a bad idea. yes it is a terrible idea,u dont that in any official competition but wait for the next after solid testing. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
i really doubt so,maybe u did 15 years ago,that makes sense,and i apologize. | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
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traxamillion
104 Posts
SSak's strategy looked so hard to beat. Wish jaedong woulda gone with hyun's strategy although not sure it matters. He got the fast 3rd and fast defilers regardless plus Valks still end up being a problem. At least he wouldbt have had to spend so much time and resources defending the 3rd and could a stopped sSaks expansion and put pressure on him | ||
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HalcyonRain
United States124 Posts
On May 09 2017 19:52 TheNewEra wrote: Considering that sSak is currently a better player than JD: Would you have made the exact same post about the patch affecting sSak if sSak would have lost? Yes, I question whether or not he and the other players from group D as well as group C were adversely affected because they're the only 2 played on 1.18 where as everyone else got to play on 1.16, and the rest of the tournament is 1.16. | ||
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
There goes everyone's LBs | ||
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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valaki
Hungary2476 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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traxamillion
104 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2713 Posts
group B: Soulkey advances first, beating Bisu Effort group C: Mong advances first, beating Best Guemchi group D: Sock advances first, beating JD Laast | ||
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shabby
Norway6402 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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Reptilia
Chile913 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
On May 09 2017 20:01 Terrorbladder wrote: lmao... group B: Soulkey advances first, beating Bisu Effort group C: Mong advances first, beating Best Guemchi group D: Sock advances first, beating JD Laast mong played really well though. | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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GTR
51393 Posts
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TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On May 09 2017 19:35 Katsuge wrote: he had a window to push out with speed hydras + OLS but he decided to sit back to mine up while ssak just mined all over the map... no edit: jaedong's strategy (spire, 2evo) revolved around not placing hydralisk den in the first place. This makes the hydra switch very expensive. Ssak was pressuring JD so JD was pretty much in the dark that the terran went vulture heavy so early. By the time the supposed hydras were to be out, it would have been way too late. | ||
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
On May 09 2017 20:02 GTR wrote: In before Shine vs Ssak or Soulkey quarter final =/ its ok time for my boy flash to take another title! | ||
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TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
On May 09 2017 20:01 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: show respect artosis,ssak won sbenu starleague vs last 3-2,and he was a tvt specialist back in the pro bw era I mean they also favour JD every match even tho he is probably the weakest player (currently) in this group | ||
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
I'm not sure he even made a hydra den the entire game | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On May 09 2017 20:01 Disregard wrote: Mong advancing out of all people Mong has been solid for a while now. | ||
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
wasnt Scan mentioning that problem too? | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On May 09 2017 20:04 sixfour wrote: I'm not sure he even made a hydra den the entire game don't believe that he did, wonder why. | ||
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rand0MPrecisi0n
313 Posts
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HalcyonRain
United States124 Posts
On May 09 2017 20:01 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: show respect artosis,ssak won sbenu starleague vs last 3-2,and he was a tvt specialist back in the pro bw era Implying that Artosis actually follows the BW scene. lol. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
my guess,he was expecting bio from sSak,like every terran does on Andromeda.so plague + lings good deal,mass hatcheries lings. | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On May 09 2017 20:04 sixfour wrote: I'm not sure he even made a hydra den the entire game i edited my post to include that his strategy involved just that - no hydra den: jaedong's strategy (spire, 2evo) revolved around not placing hydralisk den in the first place. This makes the hydra switch very expensive. Ssak was pressuring JD so JD was pretty much in the dark that the terran went vulture heavy so early. By the time the supposed hydras were to be out, it would have been way too late. | ||
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traxamillion
104 Posts
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BlackJack
United States10329 Posts
On May 09 2017 20:08 outscar wrote: Damn impressive by sSak but if he gets FlaSh on ro8 his run is over although he bested best TvT player. Could say anyone's run is over when they run into flash... | ||
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
On May 09 2017 20:08 outscar wrote: Damn impressive by sSak but if he gets FlaSh on ro8 his run is over although he bested best TvT player. back in SKT days iirc sSak was sent to snipe flash xD *edit* along with fantasy, best, bisu, soO... :3 | ||
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TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
On May 09 2017 20:08 outscar wrote: Damn impressive by sSak but if he gets FlaSh on ro8 his run is over although he bested best TvT player. I'll bet you everything that he won't get Flash in the Round of 8 | ||
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
On May 09 2017 20:09 Katsuge wrote: back in SKT days iirc sSak was sent to snipe flash xD He was a TvT specialist iirc. so yea | ||
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BlackJack
United States10329 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On May 09 2017 20:07 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: my guess,he was expecting bio from sSak,like every terran does on Andromeda.so plague + lings good deal,mass hatcheries lings. fair enough, seems like it. Lurkers are really good at protecting that fourth on andromeda so I guess he was thinking of defilers there seeing as he was getting hive as he took a fourth. | ||
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Sd13
Vietnam185 Posts
On May 09 2017 20:09 BlackJack wrote: Could say anyone's run is over when they run into flash... You don't run into Flash, Flash run over you. | ||
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
hero 12 pool, both gassing up | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
On May 09 2017 20:07 HalcyonRain wrote: Implying that Artosis actually follows the BW scene. lol. I really hoped that decline in Tastosis (especially Tasteless) casting has just been them beeing bored with SC2 (despite how much I like that game) and that they'd be awesome again once they get to cast BW again, but their game knowledge and knowledge of the scene feels kinda lackluster from what I want :/ | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
On May 09 2017 20:13 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: meanwhile i think except soulkey vs mong zerg has won every game on Camelot ? :p Purpose lost too, if you count him | ||
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
jd expanding to a third | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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Snorkels
United States1015 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2713 Posts
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
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xM(Z
Romania5277 Posts
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Prince_Stranger
Kazakhstan762 Posts
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shabby
Norway6402 Posts
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Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
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HalcyonRain
United States124 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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Zera
Lithuania716 Posts
On May 09 2017 20:32 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: okay now we really need to send Jaedong all our energy,Last is a hard task ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ | ||
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marcesr
Germany1383 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ | ||
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
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Zariel
Australia1285 Posts
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vndestiny
Singapore3438 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Edit: testing :rainbowsheep: :sheep: | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
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HalcyonRain
United States124 Posts
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ | ||
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vndestiny
Singapore3438 Posts
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KenZy
France92 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ | ||
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HalcyonRain
United States124 Posts
On May 09 2017 20:35 The_Red_Viper wrote: ZvZs as the best games so far today and the other day. Who would have thought It's a crazy world @.@ | ||
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Prince_Stranger
Kazakhstan762 Posts
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49782 Posts
On May 09 2017 20:37 BigFan wrote: ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ I'll ban you, stop spamming this. User was warned for backseat moderating ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ | ||
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Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
On May 09 2017 20:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: jd and hero both played somewhat safe but took nice calculated risks at important and well-selected moments of the game. very nice game overall Agreed. JD had so insanely good decisions with his lings sniping drones. Highlight for me is running past the obvious place with a ling becuase he expected the drone to keep moving also. Double mindgames. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
Don't fight the love | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49782 Posts
hes a mod, he can rain rainbow sheep instead of this crap. | ||
c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
hahaha, you can't stop the energy spam ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On May 09 2017 20:39 BLinD-RawR wrote: hes a mod, he can rain rainbow sheep instead of this crap. Good point, where are the rainbow sheep | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ | ||
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tanngard
Norway1325 Posts
I FLUDING HATE BUNKER RUSHES AND IF LAST PULLS THAT CRAP HERE AGAIN I WILL GET RADICAL. ehem jaedongtakemyenergy | ||
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xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Sheep for the sheep god! | ||
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
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shabby
Norway6402 Posts
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ | ||
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
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Starecat
934 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ | ||
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shabby
Norway6402 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
On May 09 2017 20:46 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: oh wow,3 barracks factory,this is new ?? | ||
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
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Keniji
Netherlands2569 Posts
On May 09 2017 20:46 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: oh wow,3 barracks factory,this is new isn't this like the most standard build there is? maybe a bit aged tho. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
for Last | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On May 09 2017 20:49 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: JAEDONG BREAKING ALPHAGO ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ | ||
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shabby
Norway6402 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
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Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
On May 09 2017 20:52 shabby wrote: The supply counter makes me nervous this is normal.Last will be max out first anyway,and this is when zerg has the chance to muta switch and punish the terran for doing only tanks,will see. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2713 Posts
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shabby
Norway6402 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ JD TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
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Keniji
Netherlands2569 Posts
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
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Snorkels
United States1015 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2713 Posts
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shabby
Norway6402 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium4700 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2713 Posts
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
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hitthat
Poland2254 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49782 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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Epithet
United States840 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
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Snorkels
United States1015 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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shabby
Norway6402 Posts
jd pretty dead | ||
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
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HalcyonRain
United States124 Posts
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2713 Posts
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shabby
Norway6402 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:09 Terrorbladder wrote: lmao how did this game even slip from JD's grasp, his economy was basically untouched and the muta switch was perfect as well I guess since Last was at 6 bases forever | ||
Peeano
Netherlands4804 Posts
Shine uses haste! Last uses CJ face! | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:09 konadora wrote: last channeling his inner fantasy it's not everyday I hear someone saying 'channeling fantasy' and not talking about his gg timing | ||
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Epithet
United States840 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
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KenZy
France92 Posts
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vndestiny
Singapore3438 Posts
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xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:09 Terrorbladder wrote: lmao how did this game even slip from JD's grasp, his economy was basically untouched and the muta switch was perfect as well He let every muta die to kill 1 tank | ||
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
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shabby
Norway6402 Posts
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Snorkels
United States1015 Posts
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ZoW
United States3983 Posts
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
mines | ||
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
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Malinor
Germany4719 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium4700 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2713 Posts
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Keniji
Netherlands2569 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
Damn, such a great game, too bad jaedong crazy multitask lacked a bit of precision to clear mines and make the best out of his defilers. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
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Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4804 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:10 KenZy wrote: ZvT seems... unfair first time in my life i gonna say it but zerg deserved to loss. | ||
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:09 Terrorbladder wrote: lmao how did this game even slip from JD's grasp, his economy was basically untouched and the muta switch was perfect as well haha I guess you know nothing about ZvT nowadays. Even if you disrupt and kill 3 bases of terran, terran will still have 4 available and remax to 200 in no time. There is no way you can break this shit unless terran gets a heart attack for a minute. This game is basically what JD did vs Mong. JD was 7 base vs Mong, but couldn't break him Mong did a 200/200 one push the entire game and breaks JD. | ||
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:12 Peeano wrote: Last was like 40-60 supply ahead of JD for the longest time. JD almost broke him! Jaedong overtook him around 19 minutes, which is when I was positive the game was over. But then Last was just so much more efficient. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5277 Posts
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
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Levque
88 Posts
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Jacenoob
299 Posts
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Stax736
United States119 Posts
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hitthat
Poland2254 Posts
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vndestiny
Singapore3438 Posts
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
artosis and tasteless very off with some of their comments. "so far so good for jaedong" when Last was on 5 bases vs 4 on jaedong. overlord + lurker + defiler being a cheap/easy to do harrass... etc. | ||
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HalcyonRain
United States124 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:10 KenZy wrote: ZvT seems... unfair It kinda is. It was more impressive (imo) when it's Tank MnM Vessel or SK terran, but once you put vultures in, the game just seems lame. | ||
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xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
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BlackJack
United States10329 Posts
(((Can't believe JD didn't keep the pressure on the upper left. Wtf..... He had a ton of extra ultra/ling he could have sent too | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4804 Posts
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TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
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vndestiny
Singapore3438 Posts
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KenZy
France92 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:12 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: first time in my life i gonna say it but zerg deserved to loss. Why ? | ||
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Stax736
United States119 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:13 gngfn wrote: Jaedong overtook him around 19 minutes, which is when I was positive the game was over. But then Last was just so much more efficient. Well Jaedong should have destroyed Last's 10 and 11 o'clock expansion when he destroyed all those tanks with the mutas, but he didn't, and he should have at least expanded during that time, but he didn't. His game sense looked off. Jaedong just didn't do enough economic damage to Last. | ||
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hitthat
Poland2254 Posts
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
On May 02 2017 09:09 Bakuryu wrote: if Jaedong would like coaching i happily offer myself for free. I have all the solutions. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
you are a high level player,rewatch the game calm in not a fan boy situation u will see. | ||
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:16 vndestiny wrote: 4 vultures which equal cost to a control group of Zerling can both harass and zone deny Ultra/lings/lurker/hydra effectively it's pretty sad. But people here instead blame JD for that loss wtf are you guys on. If Last didnt lose his arm middle of the game, then Zerg can't do anything against it. Look how hard it is to prevent terran getting 6 bases while Zerg struggles to get 4th. User was warned for this post | ||
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Jacenoob
299 Posts
Key mistake was he picked Zerg at the beginning of the game. | ||
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
I hope they can put chain reaction into the map pool so this complaining can stop. | ||
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Netto.
Poland523 Posts
But we will see I guess. Perhaps we need some new zerg blood in the scene. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:15 xccam wrote: People complaining about vultures as if JD didn't leave 12 mutas over 1 goliath and 1 turret whilst he targeted 1 tank. I wanted to see JD advance, but he sloppily lost units all over the map. Its understandable to lose lings to mines when things are happening everywhere, but the mutas was just either a bad decision or sloppy. And Last didn't make any sloppy mistakes right? It's fine to point out mistakes, but terran's stuff is just so much more cost efficient... | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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XenoX101
Australia729 Posts
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ionONE
Germany605 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium4700 Posts
They buffer for the Ultras, drag mines (hopefully in mech units) AND have the best dps in the game. | ||
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:12 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: first time in my life i gonna say it but zerg deserved to loss. sorry but Jaedong made the best out of this bo lose situation. I mean by the time jaedong took his 4th base, Last was on 5 and was taking his 6th base. The meaningful part of the game was 6base terran vs 4 base zerg. Last played so bad i cant believe it. Jaedong drops lurkers with defilers on workers and Last does absolutely nothing, not even moving away his scvs. Last was losing big armies left and right for nothing. Last didn't even bother to stop mining from that top left base when it was sure he will lose the scvs. Yes, maybe jaedong could have made much more with that first cloud of loaded overlords or with his muta switch by going straight to kill top left base of last there but still... | ||
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traxamillion
104 Posts
Also he missed the CC snipe with the scourge which did hurt. He did a great job breaking out initially after establisting the 4th. That flood is basically where zerg has by far their best chance of winning the game. He almost did it. I wouldn't knock him too hard guys that is one of the best games I've seen him play in a while and was actually pretty good. Last won with mines | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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Jacenoob
299 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:18 Essbee wrote: rofl at the balance talk again, you guys started watching bw like 4 months ago? I hope they can put chain reaction into the map pool so this complaining can stop. I watched klazart and co in 144p so no. It just seems that T has developed an almost unbreakable playstyle, this is just not balanced anymor. | ||
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Prince_Stranger
Kazakhstan762 Posts
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atrox_
United Kingdom1710 Posts
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Stax736
United States119 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:19 XenoX101 wrote: I didn't see anywhere near as many darkswarms from JD after mid-game. That's when he started losing skirmishes across the map. I think he got overconfident after almost taking out the top-left. Come to think of it, he didn't destroy any of Last's command centers, which allowed Last to replenish his units. Despite Jaedong doing more economic harassment, he was on 4 bases for quite a while. | ||
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Zera
Lithuania716 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
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TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:21 Uldridge wrote: You mean that spider mines are so much more cost efficient, but late game cracklings are probably the most efficient unit in the game. They buffer for the Ultras, drag mines (hopefully in mech units) AND have the best dps in the game. Those cost efficient lings which die by 5 to a single mine. 125 minerals vs 25. Wow look how cost efficient lings are vs a bunch of 75 mineral vultures as well. On May 09 2017 21:22 Stax736 wrote: Come to think of it, he didn't destroy any of Last's command centers, which allowed Last to replenish his units. Despite Jaedong doing more economic harassment, he was on 4 bases for quite a while. You know there is that spell called 'lift' which makes CC's invincible against anything Zerg has lategame. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:21 LRM)TechnicS wrote: sorry but Jaedong made the best out of this bo lose situation. I mean by the time jaedong took his 4th base, Last was on 5 and was taking his 6th base. The meaningful part of the game was 6base terran vs 4 base zerg. Last played so bad i cant believe it. Jaedong drops lurkers with defilers on workers and Last does absolutely nothing, not even moving away his scvs. Last was losing big armies left and right for nothing. Last didn't even bother to stop mining from that top left base when it was sure he will lose the scvs. Yes, maybe jaedong could have made much more with that first cloud of loaded overlords or with his muta switch by going straight to kill top left base of last there but still... We only point out the mistakes of zerg in this thread, these terran players are just way better can't you see it? | ||
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:22 ortseam wrote: Omg Bisu vs Shine in Ro4 pls Bisu losing to mass hydras would be the greatest thing | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:21 LRM)TechnicS wrote: sorry but Jaedong made the best out of this bo lose situation. I mean by the time jaedong took his 4th base, Last was on 5 and was taking his 6th base. The meaningful part of the game was 6base terran vs 4 base zerg. Last played so bad i cant believe it. Jaedong drops lurkers with defilers on workers and Last does absolutely nothing, not even moving away his scvs. Last was losing big armies left and right for nothing. Last didn't even bother to stop mining from that top left base when it was sure he will lose the scvs. Yes, maybe jaedong could have made much more with that first cloud of loaded overlords or with his muta switch by going straight to kill top left base of last there but still... technics it is normal the terran takes more bases doing mech,it doesnt matter,Jaedong just did go for all in situation.even soulkey understood the power of 2 mineral bases.control the map keep going.The muta move was a good idea not a good execution,he did nothing,he just suicided his army to clean turrets and units.and cuz no eco power he couldnt finish the task.very sad game past the 18 minutes. | ||
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:22 Stax736 wrote: Come to think of it, he didn't destroy any of Last's command centers, which allowed Last to replenish his units. Despite Jaedong doing more economic harassment, he was on 4 bases for quite a while. He didn't have anything that could shoot up. Last just has to lift right away and the base is safe. (Flash often lets his CCs die in this scenario because he has some aversion to moving his hand to the L key I guess.) | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
#cancelBWremake | ||
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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SirGlinG
Sweden933 Posts
Another thing. There must be good timing windows to stop a T expanding this much. For example the window when T tech switches or takes his 4th or 5th? Dunno about those lategame windows though but this mechy money play must be stopped! | ||
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Piste
6167 Posts
) | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:25 nojok wrote: The thread is going full SC2 with the balance whine lmao #cancelBWremake Maybe, but it just bothers me that people only point out the mistakes of zerg simply because "bw is perfectly balanced". No it's not. | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:17 Bakuryu wrote: watching at how the game went, i couldnt stop but smile/laugh at how Jaedong played. He keeps making the same mistakes. lay out his mistakes thoroughly and say exactly what he should have done, please. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4700 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:23 duke91 wrote: Those cost efficient lings which die by 5 to a single mine. 125 minerals vs 25. Wow look how cost efficient lings are vs a bunch of 75 mineral vultures as well. Yeah, because using Zerglings vs. Vultures like that in a vacuum sure makes sense right? On May 09 2017 21:26 SirGlinG wrote: Focusing down tanks can be legit good but in this situation it wasnt. The map control, eco harass and ability to clear up mines and lonely tanks with mutas is owrth more than a full tech switch to defiler lurker ultra ling vs the goliaths left. The mines and speedy vultures are ao quickly produced and can do so much damage agianst a zerg moving his big army clunks across the map. JD went for the kill on lasts 11 base, needed it very much but it seems it wasnt going to happen, so savibg those mutas,usibg them like a group of goons clearing mines for the rest of his army that'd be good. Another thing. There must be good timing windows to stop a T expanding this much. For example the window when T tech switches or takes his 4th or 5th? Dunno about those lategame windows though but this mechy money play must be stopped! You think dropping Defiler/Ling in the main to cut production would've been a better idea? I mean, making a factory takes a long time.. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:28 Uldridge wrote: Yeah, because using Zerglings vs. Vultures like that in a vacuum sure makes sense right? Nevermind that crackling can clear mines before they explode and we've seen circumstances like in this game where a zergling runs far enough and survive with half hp while the mine detoned already -_- | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:28 Uldridge wrote: Yeah, because using Zerglings vs. Vultures like that in a vacuum sure makes sense right? Then what is your point? You actually can use vultures in a vacuum, lay mines all over the map and each time a mine hits pretty much anything it's cost efficient already | ||
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traxamillion
104 Posts
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Zealgoon
China187 Posts
GG both players. So I guess Soulkey is the zerg hope now. | ||
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quirinus
Croatia2489 Posts
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:27 The_Red_Viper wrote: Maybe, but it just bothers me that people only point out the mistakes of zerg simply because "bw is perfectly balanced". No it's not. Yes it is. | ||
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traxamillion
104 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:28 Uldridge wrote: Yeah, because using Zerglings vs. Vultures like that in a vacuum sure makes sense right? You think dropping Defiler/Ling in the main to cut production would've been a better idea? I mean, making a factory takes a long time.. The main is the hardest place to drop. It is already turret ed up from the initial mutas off 2 bases. Plus the resources run out so less value than dropping expansions. | ||
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Stax736
United States119 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:23 duke91 wrote: Those cost efficient lings which die by 5 to a single mine. 125 minerals vs 25. Wow look how cost efficient lings are vs a bunch of 75 mineral vultures as well. You know there is that spell called 'lift' which makes CC's invincible against anything Zerg has lategame. User was temp banned for this post. Oh I'm aware of lift, but most zerg players still attempt to destroy a base/cc even in late game. The only time Jaedong attempted to destroy last's CC was the upper-right expansion. The point is Jaedong didn't do economic damage which he needed to do against mech, and he didn't expand enough earlier and that cost him the game. | ||
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Netto.
Poland523 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:26 SirGlinG wrote: Another thing. There must be good timing windows to stop a T expanding this much. For example the window when T tech switches or takes his 4th or 5th? Dunno about those lategame windows though but this mechy money play must be stopped! The moment when T switches is also the moment that zerg is stablilizing. What I mean is that when T switches Z is filling his 4th base and has only a bunch of lurkers and defilers to hold his 2nd and 4th base. So it isn't the window for zerg to strike. Zergs strike a bit later when they establish 4th base, and this is exactly what happend in this game - JD tried to put a lot of pressure after establishing 4th but Last was too much... Is it balanced? At first glance it looks like it isn't. Both made some mistakes but somehow Last was all the time on top and up 50 supply. However history of Broodwar teaches us not to hurry making such conclusions about imbalance. Maybe Soulkey will be the one to bring the solution since he is doing well vs T. We will see. | ||
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hitthat
Poland2254 Posts
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Broodwar4lyf
303 Posts
lookihere terran units sooo large it's almost like playing protoss | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:34 Stax736 wrote: Oh I'm aware of lift, but most zerg players still attempt to destroy a base even in late game. The only time Jaedong attempted to destroy last's CC was the upper-right expansion. The point is Jaedong didn't do economic damage which is absolutely necessary against mech, and he didn't expanded and that cost him the game. he did a bit of everything complemented with nothing.this is the same when you are doing a semi all in that fails,u are alive but dont expect to win. | ||
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rand0MPrecisi0n
313 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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chongu
Malaysia2584 Posts
Sigh D level terran here, I feel that terran just has so much strategic options for the midgame (pre-defiler tech), and so much unit synergy in big clumps and apm/cost efficient moves. It felt like watching jaedong fight to slowly climb up a hill, only to still be behind in supply and resources. sorry for the balance whine. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:36 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote: These mods are nazi as fuck eh if you have a problem with moderation, take it to website feedback. | ||
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juvenal
2448 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:16 vndestiny wrote: 4 vultures can zone deny Ultra/lings/lurker/hydra effectively. really? It's like if I said 4 mutas can counter 2 control groups of 3/3 mech. | ||
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quirinus
Croatia2489 Posts
It really isn't. The maps make the balance. Plus, TvZ currently definitely isn't balanced. 5rax into mech just wrecks zergs, they can't even get a 3rd. We'll have to wait for one of those revolutions to fix it, or just the zergs slowly figuring it out (if it's possible). | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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Jacenoob
299 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:29 BigFan wrote: You guys are free to discuss the game but quit with the balance whining. That's the point right. Discuss the game. We can pretend that JD just wasn't good enough, that he lacked multitasking or that his control was poor. But I don't think that would be honest, he played amazing and nobody in the world can pull off the perfection in control throughout such a long game that some people are suggesting here. The reason why he lost was that at least with maps like Circuit Breaker Zerg just has no fair fighting chance, the game is imbalanced, that is the reason why the game ended the way it ended, if you like it or not. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4700 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:33 traxamillion wrote: The main is the hardest place to drop. It is already turret ed up from the initial mutas off 2 bases. Plus the resources run out so less value than dropping expansions. Overlords are pretty beefy and he had +1 flying carapace, he could've sacrificed one or two empty ones.. On May 09 2017 21:30 The_Red_Viper wrote: Then what is your point? You actually can use vultures in a vacuum, lay mines all over the map and each time a mine hits pretty much anything it's cost efficient already Except he has drop tech which circumvents a lot of the issues with the middle of the map, you know, he used it to start his initial comeback. He did waste waaaaaaayy too many units on mines though, I do agree on that, but it's not like it's an issue of balance or anything, it's just sloppiness, for me at least. | ||
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:39 quirinus wrote: It really isn't. The maps make the balance. Plus, TvZ currently definitely isn't balanced. 5rax just wrecks zergs, they can't even get a 3rd. Hmmm yes exactly, the maps make the balance, like in any game. TvZ is 100% balanced in the right maps. This is circuit breaker. | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
LR thread going borderline twich chat People banned A great day of BW, nothing was missing outside of a tyrant win. | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:40 Jacenoob wrote: The reason why he lost was that at least with maps like Circuit Breaker Zerg just has no fair fighting chance, the game is imbalanced, that is the reason why the game ended the way it ended, if you like it or not. Huh? We used to call FS imba late game now CB too? C'mon, this map is most balanced one. Don't start whine just because of one game. If Flash was in Last's seat none of you could say all of that. | ||
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hitthat
Poland2254 Posts
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SirGlinG
Sweden933 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:28 Uldridge wrote: Yeah, because using Zerglings vs. Vultures like that in a vacuum sure makes sense right? You think dropping Defiler/Ling in the main to cut production would've been a better idea? I mean, making a factory takes a long time.. Yeah, with that many bases up and running killing off T:s production becomes more important than it usually is. It's not like a pvt where u can kill the tanks, and that long rebuildtime is gonna give u full map control. The vultures and mines can do more here to regain some map control and delay a big push so with vultures quick and cheap production time in this situation killing off factories becomes even more important. I don't know how many factories he had but he could replenish very quickly, loosing two bases workers didn't really have a big enough effect. JD was very close to killing off 11. I think just a few more lings to consume, another two lurkers would have given him enough time for another drop. If he gets that+production, he might be contained from outsid but could drop 12 or 1. | ||
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HalcyonRain
United States124 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:44 outscar wrote: Huh? We used to call FS imba late game now CB too? C'mon, this map is most balanced one. Don't start whine just because of one game. If Flash was in Last's seat none of you could say all of that. I assume you're joking right? http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/maps/404_Circuit_Breaker TvZ 59% ZvP 61% PvT 45.6% http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/maps/237_Fighting_Spirit TvZ 63% ZvP 51% PvT 47.4% | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:25 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: technics it is normal the terran takes more bases doing mech,it doesnt matter,Jaedong just did go for all in situation.even soulkey understood the power of 2 mineral bases.control the map keep going.The muta move was a good idea not a good execution,he did nothing,he just suicided his army to clean turrets and units.and cuz no eco power he couldnt finish the task.very sad game past the 18 minutes. Eon, Jaedong came from behind and did substantial damage after a severe bo disadvantage. Last played much worse and still got away with a win imo. Saying that zerg deserved to loss is not very right I think. | ||
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Zariel
Australia1285 Posts
Yeah JD lost and we all wanted him to win. But at the end of the day the better player won. | ||
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quirinus
Croatia2489 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:59 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Eon, Jaedong came from behind and did substantial damage after a severe bo disadvantage. Last played much worse and still got away with a win imo. Saying that zerg deserved to loss is not very right I think. A severe bo disadvantage would be if last went 5rax. This was ok. Eon is right. For the last part of that game i was wishing jd would take 1-2 expos and make a round of drones. Also, not researching burrow or not keeping an overlord near his drones to load them cost him a lot. He should have also droned up the 4th more quickly, he couldn't do anything else at that point, but he still didnt do it in time. | ||
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hitthat
Poland2254 Posts
On May 09 2017 22:01 Zariel wrote: Cant u guys take a step back and enjoy the beauty in that game? Yeah JD lost and we all wanted him to win. But at the end of the day the better player won. Since MSL JD vs Sea game one I lost hope that Z's will sincerly analise any TvZ loss. Here at last the (much) more lucky player won, in the former JD was clearly inferior | ||
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trutaCz
Poland686 Posts
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Jacenoob
299 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:50 HalcyonRain wrote: I assume you're joking right? http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/maps/404_Circuit_Breaker TvZ 59% ZvP 61% PvT 45.6% http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/maps/237_Fighting_Spirit TvZ 63% ZvP 51% PvT 47.4% Take a look at the games from this year, it is even worse than just 60-40. CB is 12-2 (without today's game), FS is 6-2. | ||
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quirinus
Croatia2489 Posts
On May 09 2017 22:06 trutaCz wrote: Well i actually think that throwing away mutas was the most important factor, they were only 1-0. If he had back them after doing some damage to cut reinforcements from the main base he would have won the game in my opinion. Yeah, he would have used them to clear mines and keep vultures at bay. | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On May 09 2017 22:02 quirinus wrote: A severe bo disadvantage would be if last went 5rax. This was ok. Eon is right. For the last part of that game i was wishing jd would take 1-2 expos and make a round of drones. I am talking about Last going 13-14CC while doing a lot of damage with his initial mnm attack. That was well enough for any followup by Last afterwards. edit: and yes, 5rax was another good option for Last | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
It's easy to say "he could have done better" , you know what? Last could have done better as well. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10329 Posts
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HalcyonRain
United States124 Posts
On May 09 2017 22:06 Jacenoob wrote: Take a look at the games from this year, it is even worse than just 60-40. CB is 12-2 (without today's game), FS is 6-2. Jeez that's bad. I guess at the end of the day until Zerg has a build that can take a 3rd vs 5 rax AND deal with vultures ZvT is not going to be very fun, to watch or play. Although I guess there could be new maps that try to take into account that Zerg has a hard time taking a 3rd and that Terran goes late mechanics in the matchup and try to balance it that way. I won't hold my breath though, Camelot is the EXACT opposite of this. | ||
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SirGlinG
Sweden933 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:34 Netto. wrote: The moment when T switches is also the moment that zerg is stablilizing. What I mean is that when T switches Z is filling his 4th base and has only a bunch of lurkers and defilers to hold his 2nd and 4th base. So it isn't the window for zerg to strike. Zergs strike a bit later when they establish 4th base, and this is exactly what happend in this game - JD tried to put a lot of pressure after establishing 4th but Last was too much... Is it balanced? At first glance it looks like it isn't. Both made some mistakes but somehow Last was all the time on top and up 50 supply. However history of Broodwar teaches us not to hurry making such conclusions about imbalance. Maybe Soulkey will be the one to bring the solution since he is doing well vs T. We will see. Yeah I agree! It's ridicilous how much balance talk that comes up here. Was zvp imba during saviors era? Should they have patched the game then? Was Pvz imba when Bisu turned that all around? Should protoss been nerfed two months after zerg should have been nerfed? (Not questioning u, just putting up some general rhetorical questions for people who seem to believe that 50/50/50 is the only and ultimate goal of a rts game, that patches should meddle with the natural process of the players finding new ways to counter strong shit. It's not that fun when anyone can beat anyone, stuff gets nerfed. I hope TL can remain this way, not normalize questioning of balance. That can be in certain threads for it where people add their arguments, stats for it but in these other threads we discuss the game as it is. Blaming balance is just to give up. Bw is still developing new strats, like this one. Why would this one be " Die Endlösung"? Vultures has always been this strong. And it's important to remember that we're discussing just one game in which Zerg used one build order. There's always been eras of races being stronger than others, bonjwas taking over with a new style and talent, making people forget how to beat them and giving their race a lot of power and good ideas. Like an answer sheet to it's times current meta. JD went for three hatch muta. There are other build orders with other timing windows and follow ups. And JD could have won this game if he made better decisions. So I don't think it's time to fully rule out his game here but he did end up in a big disadvantage in late midgame because of his buildorder. The streaming situation and people not living in a teamhouse with other top players of the other races, talking, helping eachother with how to counter new dominating strats is gonna slow down the process of countering this mech play though. I'd put my money on shine doing some weird nice shit, probably failing but showing a way u can face it ( if mong goes mech). Sauron zerg is dead now though, a new one has to rise from the ashes. A phoenix zerg saving the race. (It's shine btw ...) | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:40 Jacenoob wrote: That's the point right. Discuss the game. We can pretend that JD just wasn't good enough, that he lacked multitasking or that his control was poor. But I don't think that would be honest, he played amazing and nobody in the world can pull off the perfection in control throughout such a long game that some people are suggesting here. The reason why he lost was that at least with maps like Circuit Breaker Zerg just has no fair fighting chance, the game is imbalanced, that is the reason why the game ended the way it ended, if you like it or not. Did you forget about his razor thing defense at his expansion or when he plagued Last's SCVs at his expansion but didn't target his workers so he killed, guess what, 0 workers? This game is a painful reminder of Killer vs Mind in SSL11, also on Circuit Breaker where Killer almost broke Mind in similar fashion (no drops, just straight up aggression off 4-5 bases). Guess what happened there? Killer ended up losing because Mind defended and survived and he overextended. There were a lot of reasons Jaedong lost this game after x minutes and balance whining serves no purpose and doesn't shed light on what the issues were. Both players had their bad and great plays. In the end, Last won and Jaedong lost. I'll leave the explanation to others. | ||
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Stax736
United States119 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:36 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: he did a bit of everything complemented with nothing.this is the same when you are doing a semi all in that fails,u are alive but dont expect to win. The turning point was when jaedong attempted to destroy last's upper-left base but failed, and instead lost all his mutas. Had JD simply attacked the upper-left with lings/ultras or a combination with his mutas he probably would have won, but instead suicided his mutas. Despite the economic harassment, Last never lost a CC. | ||
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trutaCz
Poland686 Posts
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
also can we pretty please stop the balance talk or else im gonna cry T_T | ||
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PolarisSpark
60 Posts
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Stax736
United States119 Posts
On May 09 2017 22:19 trutaCz wrote: Btw playing for so long on 4 bases was intentional. That wasn't a mistake. But in the end JD was mining out and couldn't keep up with Last's macro. It was intentional, but it ended up being a mistake not taking the mineral expansions. None the less Last was vulnerable when he lost all those tanks. | ||
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Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
1. JD refuses to take the mineral expasions. He would have had a string of lings all game coming if he had taken these, plenty of hatcheries to spare here. 2. JD do not use burrow as many players have started to. Yes it can be semicountered with scan, but it makes it SO MUCH MORE INTENSIVE for the terran to snipe drones when lings are there also (hard to click on burrowed workers, in a game where 100 things are happening). And lets remember unit control and APM is a resource in this wonderful game. 3. JD has never had very good decision making vs mech but his insane mechanics makes the games often go in his favor anyway. For instance the point about mutas. He seems to not understand that he must be a bit more careful with the "counter" units like mutas and lurkers. Mutas and lurkers are the key to winning vs mech but not in the classic way, but must be used like DT's and corsairs. Going in when there is a window for herass or countering some units and then saving them for later or just for the potential risk the terran have knowing they are in the game. I remember JD doing this also back in the kespa era where he also had perfect timing with them (as in this game) and then used them OK but then lost them. Corsairs in PVZ is the same, you go in but if there are too many hydras/spores you just save them a bit a just the mere threat of them makes the Z not want to move out or dictates the unit composition. Another bad decision was that he was very keen to attack multiple places when he also busted the 11 expansion. Lets assume his mindset was all in at that point which is why he suicided 24(?) muts there, then he should have send EVERYthing to that place as the only disadvantage about mech is the slow tanks. He could have taken out that relatively fresh base I think. Instead he send small gangs of units into the other bases stopping mining yes, but the terran was not using his apm for that anyway (nor did he need to). He needed to save his 11 base. I remember this was the same back in KESPA where players like Effort, zero and others always seemed to understand mech play much better. I think it was Zero that started using overlords to drop ultras etc first and Effort that invented the late muta switch(?) | ||
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wabe.PrayHard
Bolivia45 Posts
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TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
On May 09 2017 22:32 wabe.PrayHard wrote: does anyone know what maps will be played at the quarterfinals? Ro8? is it bo3 right? Maps for Ro8 aren't revealed yet. Afreeca wanted to decide after Ro16. Complete bracket will be Bo5 | ||
2Pacalypse-
Croatia9489 Posts
On May 09 2017 22:19 trutaCz wrote: Btw playing for so long on 4 bases was intentional. That wasn't a mistake. It was probably both. | ||
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Terrorbladder
2713 Posts
On May 09 2017 22:32 wabe.PrayHard wrote: does anyone know what maps will be played at the quarterfinals? Ro8? is it bo3 right? Ro8 is bo5 | ||
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juvenal
2448 Posts
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On May 09 2017 22:17 BigFan wrote: Did you forget about his razor thing defense at his expansion or when he plagued Last's SCVs at his expansion but didn't target his workers so he killed, guess what, 0 workers? .. Lol at suggesting Jaedong failed to micro his two lurker drop at different expos while not mentioning Last completely disregarding those and not even pulling his workers in the first place. This goes to show how the lurk-defiler drop might turn expensive and risky harrass (the risk of not killing anything, losing overlords on the way) to do as opposed to vultures harrassing undefended mineral lines. This was more of a "im not there" by Last type of moment then "im not microing good enough" type of moment by Jaedong. | ||
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trutaCz
Poland686 Posts
It's a build order he picked, he wanted to be agressive with timings. It's so simple to judge for all of you while u see whole map and point out both mistakes. Yes both of them made mistakes, you can't play without them. | ||
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HalcyonRain
United States124 Posts
On May 09 2017 22:26 PolarisSpark wrote: Very new to watching BW. How are the maps that each match is played on chosen? And why do BW leagues prefer bo1 over bo3 group format? The maps are chosen by the organizers. The bo1 is the Dual Tournament format, as opposed to a round robin style group. I'm not sure why they do it like this as I would prefer bo3 but it's their tournament. Quarters, Semis, and Grand finals are bo5 though. | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
The last two games were great, I really enjoyed them. Are the Ro8 matchups as shown over on Liquipedia finalised? Last v. Flash should be by all means a lot better than the one they had in ASL1. | ||
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juvenal
2448 Posts
On May 09 2017 22:41 HalcyonRain wrote: The maps are chosen by the organizers. The bo1 is the Dual Tournament format, as opposed to a round robin style group. I'm not sure why they do it like this as I would prefer bo3 but it's their tournament. the reason is just the OSL tradition, I'm pretty sure. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On May 09 2017 22:47 juvenal wrote: the reason is just the OSL tradition, I'm pretty sure. pretty much. It made it easier to do for scheduling purposes. | ||
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1652 Posts
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:40 Jacenoob wrote: That's the point right. Discuss the game. We can pretend that JD just wasn't good enough, that he lacked multitasking or that his control was poor. But I don't think that would be honest, he played amazing and nobody in the world can pull off the perfection in control throughout such a long game that some people are suggesting here. The reason why he lost was that at least with maps like Circuit Breaker Zerg just has no fair fighting chance, the game is imbalanced, that is the reason why the game ended the way it ended, if you like it or not. I love Jaedong but he's not even top 3 in late game ZvT right now, and Last is a top 2 TvZ player. ZvT is tough right now but people are acting like it's a travesty that the better player pulled off a small comeback. It's not like Last is some TvZ only abuser - he's a top 3 player in all matchups. The blunt truth is Jaedong is a borderline top 10 player right now who takes his game up a notch in big games because of his greatness. Again, ZvT maybe isn't at the balance level we would all prefer, but people are over-indexing on this game because of Jaedong's brand name and him playing a great game for ~20 minutes but still not really having great late game ZvT sense. | ||
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wabe.PrayHard
Bolivia45 Posts
On May 09 2017 22:35 TheNewEra wrote: Maps for Ro8 aren't revealed yet. Afreeca wanted to decide after Ro16. Complete bracket will be Bo5 thank you guys! this series will be crazy, so stoke. let's wait for the maps to be revealed | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On May 09 2017 22:40 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Lol at suggesting Jaedong failed to micro his two lurker drop at different expos while not mentioning Last completely disregarding those and not even pulling his workers in the first place. This goes to show how the lurk-defiler drop might turn expensive and risky harrass (the risk of not killing anything, losing overlords on the way) to do as opposed to vultures harrassing undefended mineral lines. This was more of a "im not there" by Last type of moment then "im not microing good enough" type of moment by Jaedong. You missed my point. My point was that Jaedong wasn't playing as perfectly as some implied. I only chose those two situations because each had/could've had a more drastic effect on the match-up but there's a lot of other more important situations that contributed to his loss. On May 09 2017 22:51 darktreb wrote: I love Jaedong but he's not even top 3 in late game ZvT right now, and Last is a top 2 TvZ player. ZvT is tough right now but people are acting like it's a travesty that the better player pulled off a small comeback. It's not like Last is some TvZ only abuser - he's a top 3 player in all matchups. The blunt truth is Jaedong is a borderline top 10 player right now who takes his game up a notch in big games because of his greatness. Again, ZvT maybe isn't at the balance level we would all prefer, but people are over-indexing on this game because of Jaedong's brand name and him playing a great game for ~20 minutes but still not really having great late game ZvT sense. Pretty much. I was worried about him coming into this group because even though sSak supposedly isn't practicing as much, he's not to be underestimated and we know what happened. He rolled Jaedong over and beat Last to take an unexpected but well-earned first place. | ||
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Stax736
United States119 Posts
On May 09 2017 22:40 trutaCz wrote: It's a build order he picked, he wanted to be agressive with timings. It's so simple to judge for all of you while u see whole map and point out both mistakes. Yes both of them made mistakes, you can't play without them. Of course we judge, we are fans, and I was rooting for JD. You judge players too. JD's biggest blunder was attacking Last's upper-left expansion with only his mutas. After that he was just trading units with Last, but Last was going to eventually win out because he had the stronger economy (7 bases vs 5), as well as the cost efficiency of vultures. As someone pointed out earlier JD should have taken the mineral expansions and he could of kept up with Last's macro. | ||
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Maks
Ukraine167 Posts
Circuit Breaker TvZ: 166-115 (59.07%) [ Games ] | ||
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tankgirl
352 Posts
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Grettin
42381 Posts
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:27 LRM)TechnicS wrote: lay out his mistakes thoroughly and say exactly what he should have done, please. honestly, i dont want to. in this thread we have now 4 high level foreign zergs. Technics, Trutacz, Eonzerg and me. (please no hate that i count myself.......) we all play this game competitively at "high foreign level" for a long time, winning tournaments, each of us with different playstyles and builds. Because of all of our experience in the 10000s of games we played and observed, all of us have an opinion of who did what wrong and how things should have been done. It looks like in this game here we 4 have 3-4 different opinions. the last time i tried to explain my opinion to eonzerg, we both ended up defending our own opinion while basically saying the other opinion "should not work". all in all, a great waste of time. now i would have to "fight" against all 3 of you and the only way to actually "win" would be to play all my knowledge cards at the same time, basically explaining everything. Problem here is that i still see you 3 as rivals, and so far my knowledge is my greatest strength, so telling you guys all i know will make it harder to play with you 3 competitively :D | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
makes sense.. -_- | ||
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trutaCz
Poland686 Posts
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2Pacalypse-
Croatia9489 Posts
On May 09 2017 22:40 trutaCz wrote: It's a build order he picked, he wanted to be agressive with timings. It's so simple to judge for all of you while u see whole map and point out both mistakes. Yes both of them made mistakes, you can't play without them. Of course we judge; there's nothing wrong with that. We're not saying his build order choice was bad, it's just that in hindsight, it was probably a mistake. The important thing is to learn from your mistakes though ^^ | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On May 09 2017 22:58 BigFan wrote: You missed my point. My point was that Jaedong wasn't playing as perfectly as some implied. I only chose those two situations because each had/could've had a more drastic effect on the match-up but there's a lot of other more important situations that contributed to his loss. I don't see anybody here saying Jaedong played perfectly. If anything - it is exactly the opposite + a guy offering him free lessons. Most people are dissecting Jaedong's ZvT, pointing to whatever mistakes they can think of like if they knew better than him. And no, the lurk/swarm drop wouldnt have had such a drastic effect as you describe even if Jaedong killed all scvs at these expos microing 1 lurker per exp while doing all else. If this is truly what you meant, this just shows to me that you are leaning towards being clueless in the high level ZvT/TvZ game. All it took was Last to pull his scvs immediately, instead these drops almost went unnoticed. On top of that the defiler on the natural of Last was alive well after the Lurker was killed. I am not saying Jaedong played perfectly, I am saying Last played pretty bad (for his level) and got away with a win. This is why the game went for so long and looked like Jaedong had a chance for a brief moment or two around that muta switch. Besides that moment, there wasn't any point in the game where I thought he is "so far so good for Jaedong" as Tasteless described wrongfully very early at exactly the moment Jaedong was surely behind, at least in my eyes. Jaedong had his great moments and weaknesses in the game, I might have some critiques in mind, but I am not necessarily certain they are all correct as I definitely don't consider my ZvT of higher level than his nor can I understand his subtle ingame struggles vs Top2 (at worst) TvZer at the moment. | ||
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trutaCz
Poland686 Posts
On May 09 2017 23:20 2Pacalypse- wrote: Of course we judge; there's nothing wrong with that. We're not saying his build order choice was bad, it's just that in hindsight, it was probably a mistake. The important thing is to learn from your mistakes though ^^ A mistake might be an execution. For example : making wrong decisions with ur army. Take a look on it from the other side. Jaedong makes better fight and denies both top left bases and wins the game. Are you still going to say that his b.o was a mistake? | ||
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-Kuya
Australia20 Posts
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
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hitthat
Poland2254 Posts
On May 09 2017 23:03 Maks wrote: Shameless terran apologists: bla bla bla Last and Flash are just to good; bla bla bla JD made a lot of mistakes; bla bla bla CB is the most balanced map ever created. Yep, its ridiculously balanced. Just look at this stats: Circuit Breaker TvZ: 166-115 (59.07%) [ Games ] JD didnt lose this particular game becouse of imbalance. He just got unlucky in few clashes, made few unfortunate decisions and that hurt him, becouse at this point, when terran ground power kicked off, he couldn't afford to cost inefectiveness becouse of his economy disadvantage. I do not even deny that T has small advantage over Z in most maps, but in this game it wasn't a deciding factor. Its one of those games when luck was a big one factor. The game was pretty equal from both sides. It's easy to call someone apologist when everything you have to say is throwing the numbers without telling anything about the game. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On May 09 2017 23:24 LRM)TechnicS wrote: I don't see anybody here saying Jaedong played perfectly. If anything - it is exactly the opposite + a guy offering him free lessons. Most people are dissecting Jaedong's ZvT, pointing to whatever mistakes they can think of like if they knew better than him. And no, the lurk/swarm drop wouldnt have had such a drastic effect as you describe even if Jaedong killed all scvs at these expos microing 1 lurker per exp while doing all else. If this is truly what you meant, this just shows to me that you are leaning towards being clueless in the high level ZvT/TvZ game. All it took was Last to pull his scvs immediately, instead these drops almost went unnoticed. On top of that the defiler on the natural of Last was alive well after the Lurker was killed. I am not saying Jaedong played perfectly, I am saying Last played pretty bad (for his level) and got away with a win. This is why the game went for so long and looked like Jaedong had a chance for a brief moment or two around that muta switch. Besides that moment, there wasn't any point in the game where I thought he is "so far so good for Jaedong" as Tasteless described wrongfully very early at exactly the moment Jaedong was surely behind, at least in my eyes. Jaedong had his great moments and weaknesses in the game, I might have some critiques in mind, but I am not necessarily certain they are all correct as I definitely don't consider my ZvT of higher level than his nor can I understand his subtle ingame struggles vs Top2 (at worst) TvZer at the moment. my comment wasn't even directed at you in the first place. Go back and read my first comment. I already stated there that both players made mistakes. I only pointed out these two situations to show that there are always improvements that can be made to Jaedong's game. | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On May 09 2017 23:34 BigFan wrote: my comment wasn't even directed at you in the first place. Go back and read my first comment. I already stated there that both players made mistakes. I only pointed out these two situations to show that there are always improvements that can be made to Jaedong's game. This exact situation shows that Last was AFK there while he should have been there (imo). This exact example shows that there is room for improvement for Last, not Jaedong here. edit: you can't micro 2 lurkers (with no attackupgrades) at two different bases vs possibly +1armor 60hp scvs, when the terran is on 6 bases, lol, have you ever played ZvT? | ||
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trutaCz
Poland686 Posts
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infinity2k17
22 Posts
On May 09 2017 19:27 LRM)TechnicS wrote: 8 minutes into the game - zerg at 60 limit, has a bunch of mutas and a bunch of lings, does nothing with them, terran's at 80 limit 14 minutes into the game - zerg at 100 limit, has a bunch of mutas and a bunch of lings and a defiler, does nothing with them, terran's at 200 limit that pretty much sums up the game I watched this game and didn't even understand what was happening.. JD defends the rush and kills 2 valks then he defends the harass and takes the other corner. Then there's a period where he does absolutely nothing - he doesn't clear mines he doesn't build anything except lings then tries to go ultra vs mech (when ssak is now on equal bases and maxes out with no pressure at all). The resource counter also broke, so what is the deal with this game? just rewatch the game (especially the minimap wth?) and after around 9:00 gametime he entirely backs off and does nothing. Edit: look at the game even from sSaks point of view. You go bunker rush -> bio/valk then add vult/tank and take an opposite corner and get to 200/200 with almost no pressure. You just got given the game because your opponent refuses to expand and keeps building muta/ling/defiler | ||
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Miragee
8467 Posts
On May 09 2017 22:07 quirinus wrote: Yeah, he would have used them to clear mines and keep vultures at bay. Yeah, he shouldn't have thrown away those. He also missed the opportunity to double expand because Last basically had no units to spare for an attack. Bleh, great game but JD made some big mistakes here. Letting the terran get up to 6 bases mech uncontested is already suicidal. But you can't throw away units like that on top of that. | ||
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2Pacalypse-
Croatia9489 Posts
On May 09 2017 23:25 trutaCz wrote: A mistake might be an execution. For example : making wrong decisions with ur army. Take a look on it from the other side. Jaedong makes better fight and denies both top left bases and wins the game. Are you still going to say that his b.o was a mistake? Fair enough. Had he controlled those mutas better and denied Terran's reinforcements through the middle of a map, maybe he could've taken the top left base and wouldn't need those extra two min-only bases. Still, seems like a harder way to go about it. | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On May 09 2017 23:47 infinity2k17 wrote: I watched this game and didn't even understand what was happening.. JD defends the rush and kills 2 valks then he defends the harass and takes the other corner. Then there's a period where he does absolutely nothing - he doesn't clear mines he doesn't build anything except lings then tries to go ultra vs mech (when ssak is now on equal bases and maxes out with no pressure at all). The resource counter also broke, so what is the deal with this game? just rewatch the game (especially the minimap wth?) and after around 9:00 gametime he entirely backs off and does nothing. Didn't even watch the Last game because I looked at the vod and saw ultras and decided there was no point ZvT, this is what happened, lol. On a more serious note, seemingly Ssak made a perfect counter to what Jaedong was doing which was what it made it look this bad. I know it sounds silly to think that 2fac vultures (with more factories later) and 1port valkyries completely shuts off spire/fast 2evo for ling upgrades/fast defilers strat with zerg on 3/4 bases, but this must be the case. If this isn't the case I have no idea what happened. Don't miss on Jaedong vs Hero though. And Jaedong vs Last should be entertaining for the casual viewer's eye, so I guess watch that as well. | ||
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juvenal
2448 Posts
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iamho
United States3346 Posts
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Miragee
8467 Posts
Anyways, I died a little inside when JD dropped out. I felt like he played really well today and his multi-tasking was top-notch (much better than last season). It's always an uphill battle against those terran strategies (mech and those ugly valkyries)... On May 09 2017 23:58 LRM)TechnicS wrote: ZvT, this is what happened, lol. On a more serious note, seemingly Ssak made a perfect counter to what Jaedong was doing which was what it made it look this bad. I know it sounds silly to think that 2fac vultures (with more factories later) and 1port valkyries completely shuts off spire/fast 2evo for ling upgrades/fast defilers strat with zerg on 3/4 bases, but this must be the case. If this isn't the case I have no idea what happened. Don't miss on Jaedong vs Hero though. And Jaedong vs Last should be entertaining for the casual viewer's eye, so I guess watch that as well. ?? What's so bad about ultras? | ||
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hitthat
Poland2254 Posts
On May 10 2017 00:01 juvenal wrote: I kinda missed this sort of heated battles after a game day, shows how much people still care about this game still nowhere in salt level in comparison to this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/141499-msl-ro8-day-1?page=44 XD | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On May 10 2017 00:09 Miragee wrote: Looking at the Ro8 MU's, Last vs Flash should be interesting. I think Bisu will win vs Ssak. Ssak's TvP is just not that good. The only way he could win is if he pulls of some crazy strategies. Mong should roll over Shine. Soulkey vs Best might be interesting as well. I hope Soulkey wins, I want at least 1 zerg in the Ro4. Anyways, I died a little inside when JD dropped out. I felt like he played really well today and his multi-tasking was top-notch (much better than last season). It's always an uphill battle against those terran strategies (mech and those ugly valkyries)... ?? What's so bad about ultras? They are pretty good, if you have them. Jaedong didnt, at least vs ssak and at least not in meaningful numbers. (maybe there were one or two?) | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On May 09 2017 23:42 trutaCz wrote: And i think most of you guys just dont understand what jd's bo execution was planned for that game. He planned to go for 3/3 timing attack to deny both top left bases with overlord drops and constat reinforcing. But first of all the timing were bit off because of early game, where jd took some dmg and even tho later he managed to keep terran in his base for some time, his 3rd was still LATE. Once the speed and drop for ol timing is done(which is a bit late) he starts to be active on a map with drops and clear the way to the top left so he can execute his plan for the game. It still was very close to deny these both bases, but finally last defended them. From this point it's basically game over (huge advantage for last) i rewatched the game and i think your posts are pretty much in-line with what happened | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On May 10 2017 00:09 hitthat wrote: still nowhere in salt level in comparison to this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/141499-msl-ro8-day-1?page=44 XD So much passion in the old days... Makes me teary-eyed... | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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RJGooner
United States2038 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28590 Posts
His strategy during the mid game was fine, at that point he was dropping a lot, with defiler and lurker, but later on he stopped building any lurkers (despite last having few vessels) and that's just kinda stupid imo. swarm+lurker+ling+drop+scourge is where its at. Don't like the balance complains. Last is top 2 terran, Jaedong played a close and hard fought awesome game against him which really could have gone the other way. I thought both players were really impressive but Last even more so, good games.. I guess maybe the map pool can take some adjustment but.. I don't at all feel like this was a game where jaedong lost 'because of imbalance'. | ||
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mdb
Bulgaria4059 Posts
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VioleTAK
Israel4279 Posts
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On May 10 2017 01:17 Liquid`Drone wrote: I thought last played an insanely impressive game. No matter the screen focused on, he was controlling the units. mines fucking everywhere. And absurdly quick 6 bases. Jaedong started out kinda weak, had a really great midgame where for a while it looked like he could edge out a win, then he collapsed a little towards the end, as he ended up losing his last 12 mutas almost for free (0 attack muta vs 2/3 goliath just doesnt work). His strategy during the mid game was fine, at that point he was dropping a lot, with defiler and lurker, but later on he stopped building any lurkers (despite last having few vessels) and that's just kinda stupid imo. swarm+lurker+ling+drop+scourge is where its at. Don't like the balance complains. Last is top 2 terran, Jaedong played a close and hard fought awesome game against him which really could have gone the other way. I thought both players were really impressive but Last even more so, good games.. I guess maybe the map pool can take some adjustment but.. I don't at all feel like this was a game where jaedong lost 'because of imbalance'. Last started out with CC first which alone translated easily into being plenty ahead from then on. He exploited this by going for a very quick mnm bust which almost succeeded which put him even further ahead because Jaedong had to place 4 sunks, lose mining time for drones and even losing some drones in the proccess. Only then Last was able to proceed into the relatively quick 6 bases without being denied. With how the game went - the 6 bases were not absurdly quick, at least in my book. The fact that from being so far ahead Last took so much damage and let the game prolong for so long (and it even had that one moment where Jaedong looked ahead) means that Last could have played significantly better. He seemed rather sloppy to lose many workers and armies at different points of the game imo where he could have easily avoided such damage. Last is a great player, no doubt about that. IMO he is probably the best TvZ in the world right now (or on par with Flash's) and fighting against that should be the hardest thing a zerg can face. But it was Last's game to lose and he took way longer than needed to secure the win which doesn't speak well for the skills he presented in this game alone imo. I really am impressed by him as a player, but this game specifically doesn't do it for me as it seemingly did for you. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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Jacenoob
299 Posts
On May 09 2017 22:17 SirGlinG wrote: Yeah I agree! It's ridicilous how much balance talk that comes up here. Was zvp imba during saviors era? Should they have patched the game then? Was Pvz imba when Bisu turned that all around? Should protoss been nerfed two months after zerg should have been nerfed? (Not questioning u, just putting up some general rhetorical questions for people who seem to believe that 50/50/50 is the only and ultimate goal of a rts game, that patches should meddle with the natural process of the players finding new ways to counter strong shit. It's not that fun when anyone can beat anyone, stuff gets nerfed. I hope TL can remain this way, not normalize questioning of balance. That can be in certain threads for it where people add their arguments, stats for it but in these other threads we discuss the game as it is. Blaming balance is just to give up. Bw is still developing new strats, like this one. Why would this one be " Die Endlösung"? Vultures has always been this strong. And it's important to remember that we're discussing just one game in which Zerg used one build order. There's always been eras of races being stronger than others, bonjwas taking over with a new style and talent, making people forget how to beat them and giving their race a lot of power and good ideas. Like an answer sheet to it's times current meta. JD went for three hatch muta. There are other build orders with other timing windows and follow ups. And JD could have won this game if he made better decisions. So I don't think it's time to fully rule out his game here but he did end up in a big disadvantage in late midgame because of his buildorder. The streaming situation and people not living in a teamhouse with other top players of the other races, talking, helping eachother with how to counter new dominating strats is gonna slow down the process of countering this mech play though. I'd put my money on shine doing some weird nice shit, probably failing but showing a way u can face it ( if mong goes mech). Sauron zerg is dead now though, a new one has to rise from the ashes. A phoenix zerg saving the race. (It's shine btw ...)I find TL's almost religious belief in SC balance odd. Yeah Bisu revolutionized PvZ, but so what? What makes you think the same thing can happen again for ZvT? And what if the opposite happens and Terran actually gets even stronger? All we have is current data and currently TvZ is absolutely broken on many maps to the point of 75%-85% matchups. And there are also historical examples of the opposite. In SC2 during the BL-Infestor era we had the same arguments. The same people recalling Bisu's revolution and saying the metagame will fix itself and TL mods wildly swinging the banhammer at everyone who suggested that the constant Z domination over months with Sniper and Roro winning GSL's might have to do with a balance issue. And we all know how that turned out. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On May 10 2017 01:47 Ej_ wrote: Looks like TvT finals again :x No way | ||
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BaggedLunch
1 Post
Firstly, Last played a good game and had a good BO. He was ahead by a TON in the late game, being up by what two bases for the majority of it? I can't fathom people calling that balance related when JD probably should've adjusted his strategy a bit when he wasn't getting work done. Last didn't play around with turreting his main, from there he secured expos and it paid off. Good on JD for fighting like a mad man, but when you aren't taking down expansing OR putting them up, what can we say? Great game to watch regardless. Secondly, personally I think the big mistake here is losing to sSak. He had an advantage there by being a more seasoned player but lost his Group advantage with that match up. Was really odd and interesting to see Valks, so I can't complain much. sSak played well and played pretty normal all things considered. Edit to add: that conga-line zergling into sSak's final push and the late Dark Swarm.. ouch. That shouldn't have happened like that! If JD won that match his position in group would be strong. So yea.. I feel like JD just dropped the ball here! Lastly, While he won the ZvZ I don't really feel that great about it. He was up mutas for most of the game, but I felt uneasy watching it. Hero almost stabilized on two bases but got crippled by some great ling strikes by JD. My point is the game wasn't really a dominating win for JD. It is zvz though, so its hard to say that for sure. I'm a big JD fan, and yea my heart sank when he lost the first game. AND when he got knocked out, but after reading everyone's response and re-watching parts of Last v JD its clear he needs to work out some kinks in his strategy, because he is obviously capable of beating everyone there. JD Fighting! | ||
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TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
On May 10 2017 01:47 Ej_ wrote: Looks like TvT finals again :x you think Mong or sSak are going to get to the final over Bisu? | ||
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reminisce12
Australia318 Posts
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mdb
Bulgaria4059 Posts
On May 10 2017 01:47 Jacenoob wrote: I find TL's almost religious belief in SC balance odd. Yeah Bisu revolutionized PvZ, but so what? What makes you think the same thing can happen again for ZvT? And what if the opposite happens and Terran actually gets even stronger? All we have is current data and currently TvZ is absolutely broken on many maps to the point of 75%-85% matchups. And there are also historical examples of the opposite. In SC2 during the BL-Infestor era we had the same arguments. The same people recalling Bisu's revolution and saying the metagame will fix itself and TL mods wildly swinging the banhammer at everyone who suggested that the constant Z domination over months with Sniper and Roro winning GSL's might have to do with a balance issue. And we all know how that turned out. Please, share your suggestions how to make the game balanced again. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28590 Posts
On May 10 2017 01:46 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Last started out with CC first which alone translated easily into being plenty ahead from then on. He exploited this by going for a very quick mnm bust which almost succeeded which put him even further ahead because Jaedong had to place 4 sunks, lose mining time for drones and even losing some drones in the proccess. Only then Last was able to proceed into the relatively quick 6 bases without being denied. With how the game went - the 6 bases were not absurdly quick, at least in my book. The fact that from being so far ahead Last took so much damage and let the game prolong for so long (and it even had that one moment where Jaedong looked ahead) means that Last could have played significantly better. He seemed rather sloppy to lose many workers and armies at different points of the game imo where he could have easily avoided such damage. Last is a great player, no doubt about that. IMO he is probably the best TvZ in the world right now (or on par with Flash's) and fighting against that should be the hardest thing a zerg can face. But it was Last's game to lose and he took way longer than needed to secure the win which doesn't speak well for the skills he presented in this game alone imo. I really am impressed by him as a player, but this game specifically doesn't do it for me as it seemingly did for you. I thought jaedong's midgame semi-comeback was more due to him playing amazingly well at that point than about last playing poorly. The point about 'a comeback should never happen if the other player doesn't fuck up' is mostly valid though, I agree with that, but I do think specifically zvt during the mid game phase, if zerg does a good job with lurker defiler zergling drops, then there's pretty much no way for terran to not be hurt by it. I also think the game was so frantic that it's impossible to not make mistakes, and that when last makes mistakes, it's more likely to be due to jaedong being everywhere than about last just slacking off or suddenly not performing at the best of his abilities or whatever. | ||
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sasvorti00
Hungary90 Posts
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
TvZ probably isn't "perfectly" balanced right now. Jaedong didn't play that great, especially past the 20 minute mark. Both can be true - I think both are true. What's definitely true is that Jaedong could have won this game had he played better, and not in "everything perfect god mode" ways, but in ways that are completely reasonable to expect for an elite Zerg player. I bet Effort, Soulkey, Zero, perhaps hero, and perhaps Larva (when not on stage) win that game if they get into the position Jaedong did right after the late game Muta switch. Nobody thinks BW is balanced on every map. But better players can beat worse players most of the time, on most maps. The thing is though, Last is the better player right now. Using this of all games as the prime example of TvZ imba is asinine. There are so many better examples. I've been watching Jaedong since 2006. One of Jaedong's weaknesses has always been his propensity for aggression (which is also one of his greatest strengths), and relatively mediocre game sense / late game decision making for a person who is probably the second greatest player of all time. Jaedong generally wins off of a combination of hyper aggression, and amazing mechanics. He was always able to scrape advantages other players couldn't, both because they didn't have the mechanics, and because they didn't have the balls. The problem is this playstyle is so damn effective that Jaedong never developed quite as good of "sloppy game" game sense. He still won a ton of these games because he was almost always the better player, and superior mechanics and killer instinct are still worth a lot in a sloppy game. But as soon as it looks like "attack attack attack" will work, his natural instinct is to go with that route, even if there's a better route. In this game, that situation came up after the Muta switch. He got a lot of value out of the Mutas, but he could have gotten FAR more value out of them by keeping them alive instead of throwing them away at the top left. If he keeps ~10 Mutas alive and harasses / flanks with them constantly, while taking both mineral only bases and perhaps even 3 o'clock, then he probably wins. This would have been Soulkey's instinct, and probably Effort's and Larva's as well. This is the stable way to win ZvT on Circuit Breaker once you have a brief late game advantage, because if you take both Mineral only bases, not only is the 6 o'clock gas buffered a bit, but each harass is proportionally less damaging for the very straightforward reason that when an expo is harassed when you're on 6-7 base, it's less damaging than when you're on 4-5 base. Once Jaedong lost the Mutas, all of a sudden Last could again march all the way down to the high ground outside of one of the mineral only bases. There was very little flanking, partly because Jaedong couldn't afford it having burned like 2000 / 2000 on Mutas. For all of Jaedong's great Lurker drop harass in the beginning of the late game, where was a Defiler and a Lurker under swarm to interrupt the flow of Terran units? All of this is very hard to do, but what is also getting ignored is how great Last played after the 20 minute mark. It definitely wasn't a great game by him in the first 20 minutes, but whereas a lot of Terrans would have crumbled or gotten passive, Last kept pumping out units and kept going to the high ground. It's really scary to move out as Terran when you don't have the full death ball put together, but Last kept doing it super effectively (though again would have been less effective with the threat of Mutas). Also, while Vultures are super strong, it does take a ton of work to lay mines over and over again. This is why the mineral only bases on CB benefit Zerg more than Terran. For Zerg, it just means infinity cracklings, which take very little effort to use. You can throw 6-24 cracklings at some expo on A-move in the late game and there's a decent chance they do damage. Sure they might all blow up to one mine, but Terran has to keep laying those mines. Problem is, Jaedong just never stabilized those mineral-only bases, in spite of the advantage they provide for Zerg in late game ZvT. Now you might say, "Jaedong badly wanted to kill top left, because if he doesn't it's really hard". I agree. But throwing Mutas only doesn't work. Mutas do like no damage to buildings, and as long as there are a few Factories up there, eventually enough 3-3 Goliaths will pop. It's like in PvT, as soon as the Zealots die, pull back the Dragoons. Here, as soon as you're down to just Mutas, pull them back because they are 10x more valuable as harass / flank / just being annoying, than slowing chipping away at Factories while Goliaths come out 3 at a time. This is a very straightforward concept. I'm not saying I "know better" than Jaedong - he surely knows this too, but his attack instincts are just too much sometimes in the heat of a game. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28590 Posts
On May 10 2017 01:47 Jacenoob wrote: I find TL's almost religious belief in SC balance odd. Yeah Bisu revolutionized PvZ, but so what? What makes you think the same thing can happen again for ZvT? And what if the opposite happens and Terran actually gets even stronger? All we have is current data and currently TvZ is absolutely broken on many maps to the point of 75%-85% matchups. And there are also historical examples of the opposite. In SC2 during the BL-Infestor era we had the same arguments. The same people recalling Bisu's revolution and saying the metagame will fix itself and TL mods wildly swinging the banhammer at everyone who suggested that the constant Z domination over months with Sniper and Roro winning GSL's might have to do with a balance issue. And we all know how that turned out. There are several different factors at play here. Firstly, brood war has never been perfectly balanced. But it has still been amazing. Secondly, there have been periods of time where the game was significantly less balanced than it is today. It was still amazing. Third, nobody really knows or can suggest any balance changes that people overall would agree with, that wouldn't fuck up something. Maybe something tiny like 'tank upgrade +4 instead of +5 per upgrade', but overall, it's such a fiine line. It's very hard to find stuff that makes terran slightly worse vs zerg but not worse vs protoss, it's very hard to find stuff that makes zerg better vs terran but not vs protoss, it's very hard to make any significant change that doesn't actually break the game. Fourth, we've been playing the game without any balance patches for the past 16 years. While there have been periods where one or several matchups seemed 'very' imbalanced (like tvz atm), so far, it has always been fixed through a) map design b) evolving strategies. Fifth, although this specifically doesn't really apply to the pro level, anyone who feels a certain race is stronger, can feel free to choose that race. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
I think the solution for Zerg would be to mix in Queens with the army, they are very cost efficient against mech late game. Larva has some good games against Last where he won with Queens late game on CB. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
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Dirtyharry
Germany171 Posts
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On May 10 2017 02:31 Liquid`Drone wrote: I thought jaedong's midgame semi-comeback was more due to him playing amazingly well at that point than about last playing poorly. I also thought Jaedong made an amazing game out of his early disadvantage but so many people here implied that he did or explicitly stated what mistakes he made that I had a 2nd thought of fully defending his bo and strategy decisions. I think trutaCz nailed it nicely though. On May 10 2017 02:31 Liquid`Drone wrote: I also think the game was so frantic that it's impossible to not make mistakes, and that when last makes mistakes, it's more likely to be due to jaedong being everywhere than about last just slacking off or suddenly not performing at the best of his abilities or whatever. Well, and again IMHO, yes and no. Jaedong was being everywhere because this is what ZvT is all about - taking the most out of every tiny bit of situation that arises and doing it as quickly and precisely as possible - usually practically needed only to survive. He absolutely must do it. Last seemingly didn't need to. Imagine in a TvZ a terran that consistently takes 5-6 seconds mid/lategame on average to react to micro his workers against harrass when needed vs a zerg player that consistently takes 5-6 seconds mid/late game on average to react to micro his workers vs terran's harrass. The zerg is toast. The terran is not (as the example of this game suggests). In an early bo advantange into a split-map situation like this one the terran doesn't feel the pressure of time. Time works against the zerg and for the terran. Last took a nice lead with his 14cc 2 barrack mnm attack and he knew all he had to do is not screw up really bad afterwards. | ||
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NickHotS
United States105 Posts
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Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
On May 10 2017 02:41 darktreb wrote: People are making this into a false dichotomy between "BW is perfectly balanced on every map" and "JD deserved to lose for not playing perfectly". TvZ probably isn't "perfectly" balanced right now. Jaedong didn't play that great, especially past the 20 minute mark. Both can be true - I think both are true. What's definitely true is that Jaedong could have won this game had he played better, and not in "everything perfect god mode" ways, but in ways that are completely reasonable to expect for an elite Zerg player. I bet Effort, Soulkey, Zero, perhaps hero, and perhaps Larva (when not on stage) win that game if they get into the position Jaedong did right after the late game Muta switch. Nobody thinks BW is balanced on every map. But better players can beat worse players most of the time, on most maps. The thing is though, Last is the better player right now. Using this of all games as the prime example of TvZ imba is asinine. There are so many better examples. I've been watching Jaedong since 2006. One of Jaedong's weaknesses has always been his propensity for aggression (which is also one of his greatest strengths), and relatively mediocre game sense / late game decision making for a person who is probably the second greatest player of all time. Jaedong generally wins off of a combination of hyper aggression, and amazing mechanics. He was always able to scrape advantages other players couldn't, both because they didn't have the mechanics, and because they didn't have the balls. The problem is this playstyle is so damn effective that Jaedong never developed quite as good of "sloppy game" game sense. He still won a ton of these games because he was almost always the better player, and superior mechanics and killer instinct are still worth a lot in a sloppy game. But as soon as it looks like "attack attack attack" will work, his natural instinct is to go with that route, even if there's a better route. In this game, that situation came up after the Muta switch. He got a lot of value out of the Mutas, but he could have gotten FAR more value out of them by keeping them alive instead of throwing them away at the top left. If he keeps ~10 Mutas alive and harasses / flanks with them constantly, while taking both mineral only bases and perhaps even 3 o'clock, then he probably wins. This would have been Soulkey's instinct, and probably Effort's and Larva's as well. This is the stable way to win ZvT on Circuit Breaker once you have a brief late game advantage, because if you take both Mineral only bases, not only is the 6 o'clock gas buffered a bit, but each harass is proportionally less damaging for the very straightforward reason that when an expo is harassed when you're on 6-7 base, it's less damaging than when you're on 4-5 base. Once Jaedong lost the Mutas, all of a sudden Last could again march all the way down to the high ground outside of one of the mineral only bases. There was very little flanking, partly because Jaedong couldn't afford it having burned like 2000 / 2000 on Mutas. For all of Jaedong's great Lurker drop harass in the beginning of the late game, where was a Defiler and a Lurker under swarm to interrupt the flow of Terran units? All of this is very hard to do, but what is also getting ignored is how great Last played after the 20 minute mark. It definitely wasn't a great game by him in the first 20 minutes, but whereas a lot of Terrans would have crumbled or gotten passive, Last kept pumping out units and kept going to the high ground. It's really scary to move out as Terran when you don't have the full death ball put together, but Last kept doing it super effectively (though again would have been less effective with the threat of Mutas). Also, while Vultures are super strong, it does take a ton of work to lay mines over and over again. This is why the mineral only bases on CB benefit Zerg more than Terran. For Zerg, it just means infinity cracklings, which take very little effort to use. You can throw 6-24 cracklings at some expo on A-move in the late game and there's a decent chance they do damage. Sure they might all blow up to one mine, but Terran has to keep laying those mines. Problem is, Jaedong just never stabilized those mineral-only bases, in spite of the advantage they provide for Zerg in late game ZvT. Now you might say, "Jaedong badly wanted to kill top left, because if he doesn't it's really hard". I agree. But throwing Mutas only doesn't work. Mutas do like no damage to buildings, and as long as there are a few Factories up there, eventually enough 3-3 Goliaths will pop. It's like in PvT, as soon as the Zealots die, pull back the Dragoons. Here, as soon as you're down to just Mutas, pull them back because they are 10x more valuable as harass / flank / just being annoying, than slowing chipping away at Factories while Goliaths come out 3 at a time. This is a very straightforward concept. I'm not saying I "know better" than Jaedong - he surely knows this too, but his attack instincts are just too much sometimes in the heat of a game. This is exactly what I was trying to say with my post. Thanks darktreb. Jaedong is one of a kind in this way, but his adaptation game has always been his greatest weakness. | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On May 10 2017 02:41 darktreb wrote: People are making this into a false dichotomy between "BW is perfectly balanced on every map" and "JD deserved to lose for not playing perfectly". TvZ probably isn't "perfectly" balanced right now. Jaedong didn't play that great, especially past the 20 minute mark. Both can be true - I think both are true. What's definitely true is that Jaedong could have won this game had he played better, and not in "everything perfect god mode" ways, but in ways that are completely reasonable to expect for an elite Zerg player. I bet Effort, Soulkey, Zero, perhaps hero, and perhaps Larva (when not on stage) win that game if they get into the position Jaedong did right after the late game Muta switch. Nobody thinks BW is balanced on every map. But better players can beat worse players most of the time, on most maps. The thing is though, Last is the better player right now. Using this of all games as the prime example of TvZ imba is asinine. There are so many better examples. I've been watching Jaedong since 2006. One of Jaedong's weaknesses has always been his propensity for aggression (which is also one of his greatest strengths), and relatively mediocre game sense / late game decision making for a person who is probably the second greatest player of all time. Jaedong generally wins off of a combination of hyper aggression, and amazing mechanics. He was always able to scrape advantages other players couldn't, both because they didn't have the mechanics, and because they didn't have the balls. The problem is this playstyle is so damn effective that Jaedong never developed quite as good of "sloppy game" game sense. He still won a ton of these games because he was almost always the better player, and superior mechanics and killer instinct are still worth a lot in a sloppy game. But as soon as it looks like "attack attack attack" will work, his natural instinct is to go with that route, even if there's a better route. In this game, that situation came up after the Muta switch. He got a lot of value out of the Mutas, but he could have gotten FAR more value out of them by keeping them alive instead of throwing them away at the top left. If he keeps ~10 Mutas alive and harasses / flanks with them constantly, while taking both mineral only bases and perhaps even 3 o'clock, then he probably wins. This would have been Soulkey's instinct, and probably Effort's and Larva's as well. This is the stable way to win ZvT on Circuit Breaker once you have a brief late game advantage, because if you take both Mineral only bases, not only is the 6 o'clock gas buffered a bit, but each harass is proportionally less damaging for the very straightforward reason that when an expo is harassed when you're on 6-7 base, it's less damaging than when you're on 4-5 base. Once Jaedong lost the Mutas, all of a sudden Last could again march all the way down to the high ground outside of one of the mineral only bases. There was very little flanking, partly because Jaedong couldn't afford it having burned like 2000 / 2000 on Mutas. For all of Jaedong's great Lurker drop harass in the beginning of the late game, where was a Defiler and a Lurker under swarm to interrupt the flow of Terran units? All of this is very hard to do, but what is also getting ignored is how great Last played after the 20 minute mark. It definitely wasn't a great game by him in the first 20 minutes, but whereas a lot of Terrans would have crumbled or gotten passive, Last kept pumping out units and kept going to the high ground. It's really scary to move out as Terran when you don't have the full death ball put together, but Last kept doing it super effectively (though again would have been less effective with the threat of Mutas). Also, while Vultures are super strong, it does take a ton of work to lay mines over and over again. This is why the mineral only bases on CB benefit Zerg more than Terran. For Zerg, it just means infinity cracklings, which take very little effort to use. You can throw 6-24 cracklings at some expo on A-move in the late game and there's a decent chance they do damage. Sure they might all blow up to one mine, but Terran has to keep laying those mines. Problem is, Jaedong just never stabilized those mineral-only bases, in spite of the advantage they provide for Zerg in late game ZvT. Now you might say, "Jaedong badly wanted to kill top left, because if he doesn't it's really hard". I agree. But throwing Mutas only doesn't work. Mutas do like no damage to buildings, and as long as there are a few Factories up there, eventually enough 3-3 Goliaths will pop. It's like in PvT, as soon as the Zealots die, pull back the Dragoons. Here, as soon as you're down to just Mutas, pull them back because they are 10x more valuable as harass / flank / just being annoying, than slowing chipping away at Factories while Goliaths come out 3 at a time. This is a very straightforward concept. I'm not saying I "know better" than Jaedong - he surely knows this too, but his attack instincts are just too much sometimes in the heat of a game. I think you should read trutaCz posts here. They might not be as lenghty as your post but pretty informing on what happened in actuality. | ||
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jimminy_kriket
Canada5489 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28590 Posts
On May 10 2017 03:42 LRM)TechnicS wrote: I also thought Jaedong made an amazing game out of his early disadvantage but so many people here implied that he did or explicitly stated what mistakes he made that I had a 2nd thought of fully defending his bo and strategy decisions. I think trutaCz nailed it nicely though. Well, and again IMHO, yes and no. Jaedong was being everywhere because this is what ZvT is all about - taking the most out of every tiny bit of situation that arises and doing it as quickly and precisely as possible - usually practically needed only to survive. He absolutely must do it. Last seemingly didn't need to. Imagine in a TvZ a terran that consistently takes 5-6 seconds mid/lategame on average to react to micro his workers against harrass when needed vs a zerg player that consistently takes 5-6 seconds mid/late game on average to react to micro his workers vs terran's harrass. The zerg is toast. The terran is not (as the example of this game suggests). In an early bo advantange into a split-map situation like this one the terran doesn't feel the pressure of time. Time works against the zerg and for the terran. Last took a nice lead with his 14cc 2 barrack mnm attack and he knew all he had to do is not screw up really bad afterwards. I agree with trutacz's analysis. I can agree that he made a mistake with early game (although personally I dunno what build is best against last's), that he made a significant mistake losing all the mutas, and I personally think he shouldve had some more lurkers in the late game as well because lurker+swarm is the absolute worst for terran to deal with. But I still think he overall played a great game. | ||
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GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
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Miragee
8467 Posts
On May 10 2017 02:42 Liquid`Drone wrote: There are several different factors at play here. Firstly, brood war has never been perfectly balanced. But it has still been amazing. Secondly, there have been periods of time where the game was significantly less balanced than it is today. It was still amazing. Third, nobody really knows or can suggest any balance changes that people overall would agree with, that wouldn't fuck up something. Maybe something tiny like 'tank upgrade +4 instead of +5 per upgrade', but overall, it's such a fiine line. It's very hard to find stuff that makes terran slightly worse vs zerg but not worse vs protoss, it's very hard to find stuff that makes zerg better vs terran but not vs protoss, it's very hard to make any significant change that doesn't actually break the game. Fourth, we've been playing the game without any balance patches for the past 16 years. While there have been periods where one or several matchups seemed 'very' imbalanced (like tvz atm), so far, it has always been fixed through a) map design b) evolving strategies. Fifth, although this specifically doesn't really apply to the pro level, anyone who feels a certain race is stronger, can feel free to choose that race. Good post, sums it up perfectly. | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
On May 10 2017 01:56 TheNewEra wrote: you think Mong or sSak are going to get to the final over Bisu? Yeah, especially Mong I'd say has a fighting chance. | ||
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Eleonora
29 Posts
On May 09 2017 22:17 SirGlinG wrote: Yeah I agree! It's ridicilous how much balance talk that comes up here. Yeah, so ridiculous "lol", why are people even going there ? ASL3 saw 10 TvZ matches, wanna tell me the current record ? Oh you don't know ? Allow me to help : 9 - 1. The only single game a Zerg won against a Terran is Effort against the almost-afk Sea. That was the only time. Please tell me, at which point discussing balance is allowed in your mind ? 20-1 ? Almost all Zergs are already out, so that won't happen (needed one more and only TvZ). So when you say : On May 09 2017 22:17 SirGlinG wrote: And it's important to remember that we're discussing just one game in which Zerg used one build order. There's always been eras of races being stronger than others, bonjwas taking over with a new style and talent, making people forget how to beat them and giving their race a lot of power and good ideas. This is simply not true. Zergs have used many strategies against T and they all failed outside of that very passive game from Sea. You then talk about these different eras that supposedely saw races rising and falling, but looking at the entire BW history i certainly don't see a lot of periods where T weren't close to the top, if not the absolute dominant race. From the early days with the most famous of all (Boxer) to the last days of the proleague with Flash (& Fantasy), you can't pretend a certain race has been over-represented compared to the two others. Which is not a big issue, but your point is not entirely valid. The reality is that we saw very short periods of dominance from Protoss players, usually in pack (the Three Kings, the Six Dragons etc) and the occasional reign of a few Zerg Bonjwas inside the Terran's longstanding dominance. Now regarding this type of comments : On May 09 2017 22:01 Zariel wrote: Cant u guys take a step back and enjoy the beauty in that game? On May 10 2017 02:42 Liquid`Drone wrote: Firstly, brood war has never been perfectly balanced. But it has still been amazing. Secondly, there have been periods of time where the game was significantly less balanced than it is today. It was still amazing. You might not understand it, but having a healthy BW scene relies on having an interesting and seemingly balanced game. So you could argue that the Terran going full defensive against any balance talk in this thread is actually damage control, but regardless, once a matchup (or the game) becomes predictible, when you see repetition ("like poetry") of the same sequence of events over and over across different games (remember Soulkey vs Bonjwa Mong ? Did it feel any different than JD vs Last ?), it becomes boring and disappointing. And you stop watching it. I'm not sure where the beauty is when you watch a guy struggle from the 5 min mark to lose in the end anyway. Sure, it's fantastic when a surprise actually happens (Soulkey vs Flash ASLTB, out of nowhere) but these "once in a blue moon events" won't offset the general feeling. And for the record, when was the game more unbalanced than now while still being "amazing", according to you ? Just so we know. Now obviously, here comes the "Bisu revolution" talking point and how we could see that happen again. As pointed out by this comment : On May 10 2017 01:47 Jacenoob wrote: I find TL's almost religious belief in SC balance odd. Yeah Bisu revolutionized PvZ, but so what? What makes you think the same thing can happen again for ZvT? And what if the opposite happens and Terran actually gets even stronger? All we have is current data and currently TvZ is absolutely broken on many maps to the point of 75%-85% matchups. Maybe you people (thinking otherwise) should take a look at what happened to chess. Chess still had "apparent" infinite strategic ressources a century ago, any opening becoming too strong would eventually be countered by something else, when certain games would become "stale", innovation and creation was always the solution. Bobby Fischer famously tinkered one for one of his world title matches. But what about now ? Chess at the highest level is dead, nobody today is anywhere near the popularity Kasparov had at his peak. Despite Carlsen (current #1) went a lot higher in ELO ranking (although there is talk about ELO inflation too so...). What's the issue you may ask ? Super-human memory and analysis from computers, shaving off any kind of uncertainty and leading games to be litterally replayed exactly the same up until the move #25 (meaning 50 total moves). And as a result : (almost) nobody cares. Thankfully BW is much more entertaining (for us at least), but i want to point out that with so much thoughts put into the game by the collective mind of the korean community, or even just pros, it's not unlikely, for a game that isn't "that" deep, that we might reach a kind of end-point in term of what "can" be done. If Zerg has actually ran out of options and we're stuck with this meta, then finding a solution won't be easy. And here i agree with : On May 10 2017 02:42 Liquid`Drone wrote: Nobody really knows or can suggest any balance changes that people overall would agree with, that wouldn't fuck up something. It's very hard to find stuff that makes terran slightly worse vs zerg but not worse vs protoss, it's very hard to find stuff that makes zerg better vs terran but not vs protoss, it's very hard to make any significant change that doesn't actually break the game. We've been playing the game without any balance patches for the past 16 years. While there have been periods where one or several matchups seemed 'very' imbalanced (like tvz atm), so far, it has always been fixed through a) map design b) evolving strategies. Fixing a little thing without screwing everything up and/or leading to meta relying only on patches like we see in SC2 is almost impossible. If, as i almost assume at this point, the strategic possibilities have almost been exhausted, the only one thing we can rely on is map design. But is it even possible to design a map where Z would be heavily favored against T ? I'm note sure, while the opposite is a recipe for nightmares. Side note : Fifth, although this specifically doesn't really apply to the pro level, anyone who feels a certain race is stronger, can feel free to choose that race. And having 80% of the player base playing the same race ? How interesting that would be. But the relative imbalance of T comes at a level most people can't reach anyway. P will remain the most popular race and P don't have that much problems with T. This discussion only matters for the pro scene and how entertaining it is to watch it. | ||
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Tripcho
Bulgaria31 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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RealityIsKing
613 Posts
He could have completely shut off the top 3 bases of Last. | ||
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TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
On May 10 2017 05:44 Tripcho wrote: Do they said what maps will be used at RO8? Not in the 'show'. Afreeca wanted to decide after the Ro16 | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28590 Posts
2: I think zvt immediately becomes more zerg favored through simply removing open area behind natural minerals. There's also the option of tinkering with expansions with say, 5 mineral patches and 1 gas - these are really good for zvt. 3: 10 games is not a sample size. If it's 90:10 after 100 games, obviously there's a huge issue. But if the actual balance is more like 60:40, it's still highly plausible that we sometimes get 9:1 streaks. I do think it's more along the lines of 60:40. When looking at say, the afreeca streamers per month for April list, the best two terrans, flash and last, had tvz win rates of 72% and 67% respectively, over 80-90 game sample sizes. In March, only Flash was there, he had 72%. The two best zergs from the same lists have had 50% and 63%. To me, this indicates that the actual rates are more along 60-40 rates. And personally, I actually find that acceptable. (60-40 is about as high as I want to go, though). 4: I think the flash vs soulkey game showcased that zerg has options. Because that was not a game where flash fucked up. It was a game where soulkey played absolutely brilliantly, and I think if more zergs played at the level he did in that game, then I honestly have a really hard time seeing how terrans can maintain positive winning ratios. 5: I'm not arguing that we shouldn't care about balance. I'm arguing that the game doesn't need patching, and that I didn't like people complaining about balance after a game where I felt the terran won because he played better. But having smarter map pools, that makes total sense to me. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28590 Posts
On May 10 2017 06:09 RealityIsKing wrote: Let's be real, Jaedong should have attacked the command centers with the mutalisks instead of going after the workers. He could have completely shut off the top 3 bases of Last. on par with your political analysis | ||
Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
I don't mind the slight edge that Terran has always held over Zerg and in this particular instance agree that Jaedong could have played better. However, don't feel that JD played so markedly worse as to deserve getting crushed like that. The matchup is just not as fun to watch anymore; Z feels like it has no counterplay besides one or two small windows. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
On May 10 2017 01:45 VioleTAK wrote: I really enjoyed JD's last game, even though he lost, that was fantastic! HOLY SHIT VIOLETAK IS BACK??? | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On May 10 2017 06:44 Last Romantic wrote: The problem with something like a 60/40 MU is then in a bo5 Z has essentially no chance - <10% to win. This is assuming equivalently skilled players though. That said, I completely agree with the sentiment that we need to look at balance. On May 10 2017 02:42 Liquid`Drone wrote: Nobody really knows or can suggest any balance changes that people overall would agree with, that wouldn't fuck up something. It's very hard to find stuff that makes terran slightly worse vs zerg but not worse vs protoss, it's very hard to find stuff that makes zerg better vs terran but not vs protoss, it's very hard to make any significant change that doesn't actually break the game. We've been playing the game without any balance patches for the past 16 years. While there have been periods where one or several matchups seemed 'very' imbalanced (like tvz atm), so far, it has always been fixed through a) map design b) evolving strategies. I don't entirely agree here. There are some units which are used in every matchup ubiquitously, such as tanks, lings, mutas and many more, but there are units, buildings and upgrades we can tinker with that are essentially one matchup use. I like to look at Bio for TvZ. What happens if you make stim take 10 seconds longer or cost an extra 50/50? That's definitely a small change, but we want to start small. We still won't see bio in TvT or TvP, but that's definitely a nerf for TvZ. How bout increasing medic build time by 3 seconds? Again, small change but only affecting TvZ. If it's not enough, jack it up a bit for the next patch. Slow and tiny increments, maybe twice or 3 times a year would be my ideal. Lots of other small bio changes we could do. Heck, if we don't want to nerf early game bio then modify irradiate a bit, maybe slow down its damage so it doesn't kill as quickly (but same overall damage). Zerg units are trickier to work because they're all used in every matchup but how about Dark Swarm research time? It's not nearly as critical of a research in ZvP as it is in ZvT. Reduce the research time by 10 or 20 seconds. Makes timing windows in ZvT a lot easier without affecting its use in ZvP that much. This is not as safe as the Terran changes I suggested (as there's a possibility it could impact ZvP) but I don't think it's too outrageous of a suggestion. If we want to work ZvP a bit (which I think is a great idea), Corsair buff. Give it +10 hp or faster build time, etc. It still has 0 use in PvT and PvP (One could argue that there could be uses we haven't thought up of but the possibility is so slim that I think we can discount it.) Edit: I meant Consume research time not Dark swarm research time. | ||
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YASHSHAKAR
United States75 Posts
On May 09 2017 19:46 SCC-Faust wrote: I am so depressed guys. Lol crazy day | ||
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YASHSHAKAR
United States75 Posts
On May 10 2017 06:59 neobowman wrote: While I agree with the idea that we can't look at one game to talk about balance, the statistics are still there to talk about. A balance like 60/40 is very significant. This is assuming equivalently skilled players though. That said, I completely agree with the sentiment that we need to look at balance. I don't entirely agree here. There are some units which are used in every matchup ubiquitously, such as tanks, lings, mutas and many more, but there are units, buildings and upgrades we can tinker with that are essentially one matchup use. I like to look at Bio for TvZ. What happens if you make stim take 10 seconds longer or cost an extra 50/50? That's definitely a small change, but we want to start small. We still won't see bio in TvT or TvP, but that's definitely a nerf for TvZ. How bout increasing medic build time by 3 seconds? Again, small change but only affecting TvZ. If it's not enough, jack it up a bit for the next patch. Slow and tiny increments, maybe twice or 3 times a year would be my ideal. Lots of other small bio changes we could do. Heck, if we don't want to nerf early game bio then modify irradiate a bit, maybe slow down its damage so it doesn't kill as quickly (but same overall damage). Zerg units are trickier to work because they're all used in every matchup but how about Dark Swarm research time? It's not nearly as critical of a research in ZvP as it is in ZvT. Reduce the research time by 10 or 20 seconds. Makes timing windows in ZvT a lot easier without affecting its use in ZvP that much. This is not as safe as the Terran changes I suggested (as there's a possibility it could impact ZvP) but I don't think it's too outrageous of a suggestion. If we want to work ZvP a bit (which I think is a great idea), Corsair buff. Give it +10 hp or faster build time, etc. It still has 0 use in PvT and PvP (One could argue that there could be uses we haven't thought up of but the possibility is so slim that I think we can discount it.) Corsair buff is nice but I would really get some great use out of scouts if they were just cheaper. Either that or a swap for weapon range upgrades over sight upgrade. I like the idea of scouts being able to hard counter detection units, making way for arbiter escorts and DTs to really get into the action. | ||
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sM.Zik
Canada2543 Posts
him dropping out makes me wanna cry but oh well. shouldnt have lost that game vs ssak and that cost him that round | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On May 10 2017 07:13 YASHSHAKAR wrote: Corsair buff is nice but I would really get some great use out of scouts if they were just cheaper. Either that or a swap for weapon range upgrades over sight upgrade. I like the idea of scouts being able to hard counter detection units, making way for arbiter escorts and DTs to really get into the action. While a scout buff is certainly interesting, I'm much more of a proponent of changes that would affect the meta as little as possible while balancing the matchups. Obviously, any unit change is going to have an effect on the meta but trying to minimize that while maximizing balance would be my ideal goal. Something like a scout change would be much more about trying to buff a unit to change the meta rather than changing a unit to improve balance which is what I'm looking for. I'd like to make balance discussion thread but considering how well it went last time I did that, I don't entirely think the community can be civil enough to keep the discussion on-topic and away from spamming joke-changes and such. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28590 Posts
Defilers already start with dark swarm. Maybe you meant consume? (When I do that 2 hatch defiler rush, my consume finishes researching before my defilers reach their base anyway. slight difference in defense, though. ) That said, I just don't agree with the approach of continuous small balance changes. Balance wise, it's the same game we played back in 2001. Gameplay wise, it's incredibly different. Strategies have evolved based on a) skill of players b) maps c) popular strategies among your opposition. This organic strategical evolution is proven to work. Up until 2012, the OGN starleagues had 14 terran champs, 10 zerg, 10 protoss, 12 terran runner up, 13 zerg, 9 protoss. The Sonic starleague, starting 2012, has given 4 terrans, 4 zergs, 3 protoss winners, 5 terran 3 zerg 3 protoss runner up. These statistics are completely fine with me.. The previous ASL had a tvt final. But among the top 8 players, you also only had 2 terrans. (4 protoss, 2 zerg). I'm all for choosing different maps, or making slight adjustments to maps. For example make it slightly harder to defend naturals against muta harassment. Maybe have more inverse ramp maps - terran is slightly worse on those. But the game does not need changes. | ||
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YASHSHAKAR
United States75 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:16 TheNewEra wrote: Congrats on picking sSak for your group JD Lmao yea everyone was counting ssak out during the round picking. | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On May 10 2017 07:31 Liquid`Drone wrote: Increasing stim research by 10 seconds would have big impact. Terrans would have a much harder time against various 2 hatch builds if stim was delayed by 10 seconds. When zergs go 2 hatch muta, the point where terran has both stim and range is when they start being able to defend. Myself, I like to go 2 hatch lurker into 9 minute dark swarm. I operate in 10 second windows all the time then; a 10 second later stim+range would mean it's much easier for me to establish my contain, which usually means I win the game. There are lots of windows like these; the better the player, the smaller the windows are. Defilers already start with dark swarm. Maybe you meant consume? (When I do that 2 hatch defiler rush, my consume finishes researching before my defilers reach their base anyway. slight difference in defense, though. ) That said, I just don't agree with the approach of continuous small balance changes. Balance wise, it's the same game we played back in 2001. Gameplay wise, it's incredibly different. Strategies have evolved based on a) skill of players b) maps c) popular strategies among your opposition. This organic strategical evolution is proven to work. Up until 2012, the OGN starleagues had 14 terran champs, 10 zerg, 10 protoss, 12 terran runner up, 13 zerg, 9 protoss. The Sonic starleague, starting 2012, has given 4 terrans, 4 zergs, 3 protoss winners, 5 terran 3 zerg 3 protoss runner up. These statistics are completely fine with me.. The previous ASL had a tvt final. But among the top 8 players, you also only had 2 terrans. (4 protoss, 2 zerg). I'm all for choosing different maps, or making slight adjustments to maps. For example make it slightly harder to defend naturals against muta harassment. Maybe have more inverse ramp maps - terran is slightly worse on those. But the game does not need changes. Cool. Stim 10 second change no go. How bout 5 seconds? If that's too much, shrink it down to 3 seconds or alter something else. The exact numbers aren't important here. But moreso than from us non-pros, it's this type of fine-tuning from the professionals that I think would really work wonders. I think there exists a set of small changes that could be great for balance without affecting the meta too much. I think if the pros got together and discussed it and proposed some small tweaks to Blizz for remastered, it could be great. If anyone's reading who has some pro contacts,  .Yeah, my bad I meant consume. While I definitely think maps are the most viable solution, I don't think it's reasonable to assume that these maps will come out and be standard. I don't think there has ever been a map that was Z=>T, T=>P and P=>Z with a decent sample size. Now, I don't think that's impossible, but the fact that there hasn't been a full reverse split map implies that it's difficult to make a map that balances for all three matchups. Yes, this is the same game as 10 years ago technically. But the meta has shifted. What is the difference between a meta shifting slightly because of balance and naturally from new maps and new creative strategies? Sports change rules to make the game better all the time. I point to Go as an amazing game that has had an incredible rich history of changing strategies and tactics. That said, when the opportunity came to improve balance through rule changes (Komi), they took it. Komi is still not completely standardized and they're looking to improve it all the time. Yes, the rules are slightly different but it's still the same amazing game. Now, I do think that something SC2 level is overboard. We don't want huge changes every month. And I absolutely love the current meta and how it evolves. But when something as eternally present like TvZ ZvP matchup issues continue to be a problem, I don't think it's outrageous to suggest making some changes. The tournament statistics are relatively balanced. That's great. Brood War is already really well balanced and all races are viable. That said, I think there's definitely room for improvement. I think it's clearest when you look at the Afreeca stats overall. I'd be down for map solutions to the problem, but I just haven't seen it happen. The newest map is a Terran favoured map. Andromeda is better for ZvT, but has a lot of problems in ZvP. Don't get me wrong, if starting tomorrow, the map pool was changed so that balance was achieved overall, I'd be a super happy camper. I just don't think it's a reasonable scenario and I think remastered is a great opportunity to propose a super minor balance patch that helps the scene. | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
Drone, I actually think making adjustments to the TvZ matchup is not so hard of a task. I have been having this thought for some months now that targeting the medic must be the best way to start such a task. I was really amazed how I read neobowman's comment of increasing the medic build time by 3 seconds which coincided with me having the exact same thought like 5 minutes before I opened the thread to see the new replies. I thought "wow, are you inside my brain or something?" but in reality it's not so hard to figure it out. Initially my idea was to increase medic gas cost by 15 gas, but since every unit's gas cost is divisible by 25, then +15gas looks just off while +25 gas will be too much. The real options are 10-20% add to the build time or +25 minerals. The medic is literally the only unit of all Z and T units, upgrades cost and build times that we can touch and have such a calibrated result while having the most minimized effect on other MUs. | ||
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Denzak
Canada80 Posts
On May 10 2017 06:33 Liquid`Drone wrote: 4: I think the flash vs soulkey game showcased that zerg has options. Because that was not a game where flash fucked up. It was a game where soulkey played absolutely brilliantly, and I think if more zergs played at the level he did in that game, then I honestly have a really hard time seeing how terrans can maintain positive winning ratios. Hey, what flash vs soulkey game are you referring to? I don't think I've seen it :o | ||
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chongu
Malaysia2584 Posts
On May 10 2017 08:06 Denzak wrote: Hey, what flash vs soulkey game are you referring to? I don't think I've seen it :o Teamleague! Starts at 2h8m35s | ||
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On May 10 2017 04:03 LRM)TechnicS wrote: I think you should read trutaCz posts here. They might not be as lenghty as your post but pretty informing on what happened in actuality. So ... as long as I don't go "omg ZvT impossible JD perfect" my opinion becomes invalid? Nothing I said here is even contradictory to anything Trutacz said! He also said that if Jaedong didn't throw away the Mutas he probably wins. Yes, Jaedong went for a build to prevent the top left, and it didn't work out for a variety of reasons, as Trutacz pointed out. I'm saying Jaedong still could have won had he made better decisions after the 20 minute mark. I'm not even disagreeing with staying on 4 base for a long time. I'm saying after the initial plan didn't work, there was still a good chance to win, but because of some of Jaedong's flaws, flaws that he's had for his entire career, he didn't adjust to the situation. I guess I had the gall to remind everyone that Last is a better player, and it's not that much of a travesty when the better player wins. Guess what, the better player usually wins in ZvP, TvZ, or PvT as the game drags out ... that's always been the nature of the game. To point to a 30 minute game where the better player won as a prime example of a matchup being broken is ludicrous. I even do think ZvT might be a tad broken at the moment, as I've noted. I'm just saying that this game isn't the best example and have at least attempted to explain my thought process. Could you be less of a jackass and at least point out what you disagree with, so we can have a productive discussion? | ||
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On May 10 2017 06:44 Last Romantic wrote: The problem with something like a 60/40 MU is then in a bo5 Z has essentially no chance - <10% to win. I don't mind the slight edge that Terran has always held over Zerg and in this particular instance agree that Jaedong could have played better. However, don't feel that JD played so markedly worse as to deserve getting crushed like that. The matchup is just not as fun to watch anymore; Z feels like it has no counterplay besides one or two small windows. Jaedong got "crushed" in a 30+ minute game where he had multiple chances to win...? The thing about ZvT series is because Zerg at least has all kinds of cheese to try to throw at Terran, the probability doesn't slope down as badly. Stuff that Zerg players wouldn't use over and over on ladder, but might pull out for a big game. Jaedong vs Flash in the last ASL was a prime example of that. So I don't think "60/40 -> 90/10" is an accurate representation of the situation. All that said, yeah, it is rough that it feels like we basically have to count on a Zerg pulling off shenanigans to win a series against an elite Terran.... | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On May 10 2017 02:41 darktreb wrote: What's definitely true is that Jaedong could have won this game had he played better, and not in "everything perfect god mode" ways, but in ways that are completely reasonable to expect for an elite Zerg player. I bet Effort, Soulkey, Zero, perhaps hero, and perhaps Larva (when not on stage) win that game if they get into the position Jaedong did right after the late game Muta switch. The window to make a decision what to do with these mutas was really narrow as turrets and goliaths are cheap and built fast. Last had a huge advantage and Jaedong did a ton of miracles already to get to this point. Pretty understandable and I would consider myself behaving inappropriate if I were to judge Jaedong he should have done this or that with this specific cloud of mutas. Making 65-80% of the best possible outcome is fine and I think he did plenty of damage although surely, there *might* have been better options. On May 10 2017 02:41 darktreb wrote: One of Jaedong's weaknesses has always been... a relatively mediocre game sense / late game decision. This is straight up wrong. On May 10 2017 02:41 darktreb wrote: The problem is this playstyle is so damn effective that Jaedong never developed quite as good of "sloppy game" game sense. He still won a ton of these games because he was almost always the better player, and superior mechanics and killer instinct are still worth a lot in a sloppy game. But as soon as it looks like "attack attack attack" will work, his natural instinct is to go with that route, even if there's a better route. No, I've seen him many times calm down and capitalize on the advantages by adding additional expansions to gain even a bigger advantage. On May 10 2017 02:41 darktreb wrote: In this game, that situation came up after the Muta switch. He got a lot of value out of the Mutas, but he could have gotten FAR more value out of them by keeping them alive instead of throwing them away at the top left. If he keeps ~10 Mutas alive and harasses / flanks with them constantly, while taking both mineral only bases and perhaps even 3 o'clock, then he probably wins. This would have been Soulkey's instinct, and probably Effort's and Larva's as well. Well, again, no. The time window to decide was really narrow, it is pretty normal to not be sure what to do. There are 7 bases and while watching the whole map is easy to decide where jaedong should have went, it is not when you have the fog of war from the zerg's perspective. After the muta switch he really didn't amass enough ground army so this was his last attempt at breaking T so he should perhaps have just went straight up for the real deal to kill the top left turrets and goliaths only with scvs in the meantime, not targeting tanks as this was the closest thing to make damage on. Still, reinforcements from the terran's main would have cleared those. The other option was to take out top left mineral only and 12 oclock base while probably cutting reinforcements from the main but most probably that still wouldnt have been enough. On May 10 2017 02:41 darktreb wrote: This is the stable way to win ZvT on Circuit Breaker once you have a brief late game advantage, because if you take both Mineral only bases, not only is the 6 o'clock gas buffered a bit, but each harass is proportionally less damaging for the very straightforward reason that when an expo is harassed when you're on 6-7 base, it's less damaging than when you're on 4-5 base. Jaedong was at an enormous disadvantage throughout the whole early/mid and the majority of what i call early-late game. Not mentioning that shows a complete lack of ZvT/TvZ understanding. He briefly *looked like* being ahead, not actually ahead. On May 10 2017 02:41 darktreb wrote: Problem is, Jaedong just never stabilized those mineral-only bases, in spite of the advantage they provide for Zerg in late game ZvT. Again, read trutatCz's posts. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
im not convinced by trutacz game plan and i really doubt that was intention,sure it is the classic 4 gaz zerg but once u are 4-2 close to the 3-3 u are ready to make moves and double expand,this is yes or yes.however this game has so many different situations to take that is amazing. | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On May 10 2017 08:37 darktreb wrote: Jaedong got "crushed" in a 30+ minute game where he had multiple chances to win...? Jaedong didn't have multiple chances to win this game. On May 10 2017 08:37 darktreb wrote: The thing about ZvT series is because Zerg at least has all kinds of cheese to try to throw at Terran, the probability doesn't slope down as badly. Stuff that Zerg players wouldn't use over and over on ladder, but might pull out for a big game. Jaedong vs Flash in the last ASL was a prime example of that. So I don't think "60/40 -> 90/10" is an accurate representation of the situation. Actually, it's the other way around. Zerg has only very limited amount of allins vs T early game compared to terran's all-ins. Players of the caliber of Last don't fall to ling allins almost never so most probable allins are 4pool, 2hatch lurk, 3 hatch lurk or 2hatch/3hatch hydra bust as I wouldn't consider 3hatch muta and 2 hatch muta all in strategies. If lurk busts are rare, hydras busts are super super rare. Whereas with T you have 10x as many viable allins and variations/combinations of strategies/units to play around with. | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On May 10 2017 09:14 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: @technics he actually tried to double expand he took 6 and also sent drone to the mineral only but one mine denied it,rewatch the game.i also made the hype mistake that tastosis provided on stream.after watching the game with the korean casters i was abble to watch it calm in a more analitical perspective and you are right,Last made mistakes and thanks to that Jaedong created some holes to be exploited but he didnt.Last was ridicoulous ahead the whole game. im not convinced by trutacz game plan and i really doubt that was intention,sure it is the classic 4 gaz zerg but once u are 4-2 close to the 3-3 u are ready to make moves and double expand,this is yes or yes.however this game has so many different situations to take that is amazing. Yeah, I think it was Last who gave jaedong a chance to survive and win. Last was enormously ahead. I rewatched the game and Jaedong was very, very low on both minerals and gas and it really seems what trutacz said is true - that his intention was to go gasheavy army style (that's why he took only 6 o clock) and perhaps it was really good because Last always replenished his vulture army and he was ready at all times to harrass the mineral onlies of Jaedong. The mineral onlies are very vulnerable to vultures and Last was prepared to harrass those at all times I think. I think Jaedong knew that splitting the map with having the mineral onlies wouldnt be rewarding as he will slowly but surely die with his larger mineral bank so he used his moment to go gas heavy attack style. Yeah, if that drone placed that mineral only it would definitely have been better if it would not have hurt all jaedong's attacks the way they were. But stopping the aggression completely and giving Last time to breathe in order to invest to take and defend well these 2 mineral onlies would not have won him the game most probably. Last would have probably harrassed those with vultures and would have amassed a huge army, resource bank and factories to replenish his army while not allowing JD to take a new gas (3 or 9 o'clock). And I really can't blame JD for not moving his drone to send 1 ling to clear those mines for the drone in the heat of attacking a 7base terran while nicely denying his attacks. I really just can't. He didn't have the minerals to take and protect the 2 bases. He had for 1 mineral only (with this strategy). Sure, it would have been great if he took that one mineral only he initially wanted to. But it might have been better if he went bold and took the 9 o clock's gas expo. Still, I really don't consider myself on the needed level to fully oppose his decisions. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
Maybe tis time go to back to deviating with map concepts a little. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28590 Posts
TvZ: 67-67 ZvP: 64-64 PvT: 64-59 Might actually be something to how the bases are spread out. Tau cross doesn't give equal amount of bases to t and z; t only gets a 4th gas if they've already won the game, z can get 5 gas with 3 ground entry points total. Of course, it's also very possible that current meta mech switch would be kinda dominant. | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1706 Posts
- TvZ is the most imbalanced matchup in BW history (in favor of T) - Zerg is the whiniest race in BW history | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28590 Posts
On May 10 2017 08:00 LRM)TechnicS wrote: I think when making adjustments to MUs first thing to work on is map design. However, it takes a whole lot of work and imagination to turn words into actual results here as there's a whole lot of combination of MUs to have in mind when playing around with creating said maps. Drone, I actually think making adjustments to the TvZ matchup is not so hard of a task. I have been having this thought for some months now that targeting the medic must be the best way to start such a task. I was really amazed how I read neobowman's comment of increasing the medic build time by 3 seconds which coincided with me having the exact same thought like 5 minutes before I opened the thread to see the new replies. I thought "wow, are you inside my brain or something?" but in reality it's not so hard to figure it out. Initially my idea was to increase medic gas cost by 15 gas, but since every unit's gas cost is divisible by 25, then +15gas looks just off while +25 gas will be too much. The real options are 10-20% add to the build time or +25 minerals. The medic is literally the only unit of all Z and T units, upgrades cost and build times that we can touch and have such a calibrated result while having the most minimized effect on other MUs. don't ruin the tvp blind rush!! :[ | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On May 10 2017 09:49 Dazed_Spy wrote: If zvt is so hard for zerg, I would suggest first consider changing the maps from the exact same ones that have dominated for nearly a decade. If zerg cant keep up in the meta, fuck, design a natural thats a bit more abuseable for mutalisk? Any number of features that are pro zerg or experimental can be added in. Our current meta is "4 player map, easy to take natural, symmetrical, wide open center". Maybe tis time go to back to deviating with map concepts a little. + On May 10 2017 09:54 Liquid`Drone wrote: For a truly balanced map, look at tau cross! TvZ: 67-67 ZvP: 64-64 PvT: 64-59 Might actually be something to how the bases are spread out. Tau cross doesn't give equal amount of bases to t and z; t only gets a 4th gas if they've already won the game, z can get 5 gas with 3 ground entry points total. Of course, it's also very possible that current meta mech switch would be kinda dominant. Yeah, map design is definitely the way to go at first here. The challenge is that it will really take a whole lot of efforts, imagination, headaches and possibly luck for the teams of players and mapmakers to succeed in creating the desired maps. It really should involve a lot of collaboration between the players and the mapmakers imo. | ||
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On May 10 2017 09:16 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Jaedong didn't have multiple chances to win this game. Actually, it's the other way around. Zerg has only very limited amount of allins vs T early game compared to terran's all-ins. Players of the caliber of Last don't fall to ling allins almost never so most probable allins are 4pool, 2hatch lurk, 3 hatch lurk or 2hatch/3hatch hydra bust as I wouldn't consider 3hatch muta and 2 hatch muta all in strategies. If lurk busts are rare, hydras busts are super super rare. Whereas with T you have 10x as many viable allins and variations/combinations of strategies/units to play around with. You are correct that Terran has way more cheese than Zerg. The only reason I'm saying it's a little less unfair than it looks (but still unfair) is that when a top notch Terran plays a Zerg, they tend not to be as cheesy because they feel like they can play "solid" and win. Of course, this is not good logic, because part of T > Z is things like 8 Rax beating 12 Hatch because Zerg barely mismicroed, just like part of P > T is things like the occasional DT or DT drop auto-win. But I'm just pointing out that some players fall into this mindset, and it changes the math a bit, because a "hungry" Zerg sometimes can pull out wins with speedlings, or Lurker shenanigans, or drop play, versus a Terran that they can bank on going 1 Rax FE. | ||
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
However, you took some things I said out of context, and I'd like to correct that. On May 10 2017 09:10 LRM)TechnicS wrote: The window to make a decision what to do with these mutas was really narrow as turrets and goliaths are cheap and built fast. Last had a huge advantage and Jaedong did a ton of miracles already to get to this point. Pretty understandable and I would consider myself behaving inappropriate if I were to judge Jaedong he should have done this or that with this specific cloud of mutas. Making 65-80% of the best possible outcome is fine and I think he did plenty of damage although surely, there *might* have been better options. I concede that the decision to back off in the middle of a crazy game is not an easy one, especially lacking full vision. The specific moment I think he needed to reconsider was when we he moved into the top left with only ~8 Mutas left, and there was a couple Goliaths, a few Factories, and a couple Turrets still. Without lings coming in (which he did not have), there was no circumstance in which staying there was going to be beneficial. But, it's still a very hard spur of the moment decision. Come on man - you're gonna quote me except also cut off the second half of what I said? That's intellectually dishonest. I said relative to how he is one of the greatest players of all time. Jaedong's game sense isn't on the level of Flash or Savior, or even Stork in some ways. I'm not saying he has mediocre game sense overall. Of course you don't become one of the 2-5 greatest players ever without being great in just about any way that matters. But Jaedong's calling card was mechanical dominance and will to win. This is similar to saying that Flash's raw mechanics (until nowadays) might not be as great as you'd expect given that he's the best player of all time. On May 10 2017 09:10 LRM)TechnicS wrote: No, I've seen him many times calm down and capitalize on the advantages by adding additional expansions to gain even a bigger advantage. I didn't say he never calms down and adds expansions. I said his natural instinct is to end games quickly when he can. He's not a robot who follows it 100% of the time, but you can't deny that he goes for the kill with higher frequency than most players. When the ZvP meta had moved toward big time turtling, Jaedong adopted it well and went, what, a whole year without losing a ZvP basically? Of course he can do the other stuff, he's Jaedong. On May 10 2017 09:10 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Well, again, no. The time window to decide was really narrow, it is pretty normal to not be sure what to do. There are 7 bases and while watching the whole map is easy to decide where jaedong should have went, it is not when you have the fog of war from the zerg's perspective. After the muta switch he really didn't amass enough ground army so this was his last attempt at breaking T so he should perhaps have just went straight up for the real deal to kill the top left turrets and goliaths only with scvs in the meantime, not targeting tanks as this was the closest thing to make damage on. Still, reinforcements from the terran's main would have cleared those. The other option was to take out top left mineral only and 12 oclock base while probably cutting reinforcements from the main but most probably that still wouldnt have been enough. I agree he had to go for top left. I'm just saying that without ground reinforcements, there's no way a handful of Mutas was ever going to take it. But in that situation, to even make it into the top left base, it's fair that the instinct is you just gotta throw everything you got at it if there's any chance at all you can take it out. I still think there has to be a trigger where it's like, Mutas alone cannot possibly take top left out by themselves. Similar to "Zealots gone -> pull Dragoons back". On May 10 2017 09:10 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Jaedong was at an enormous disadvantage throughout the whole early/mid and the majority of what i call early-late game. Not mentioning that shows a complete lack of ZvT/TvZ understanding. He briefly *looked like* being ahead, not actually ahead. All I'm saying is that there was a brief moment where Last was on his heels. Maybe Jaedong wasn't straight up "ahead", but he was in a playable position. Maybe it's a reading mixup. I was making a general comment about the value of those mineral only bases. I also pointed out that Jaedong never stabilized them, thus hurting him. I'm not saying it was easy to do so, or even the right thing (perhaps the resources were better spent elsewhere, like he did). Just saying those mineral only bases help Zerg a lot and thus it's a consideration to try to secure them. But maybe in this game Jaedong's windows of opportunity were just too small like you said, and he had no realistic opportunity to secure those because it would have squandered his momentum. After all, even by not taking the mineral only bases sooner, he still wasn't able to create enough forward damage momentum. | ||
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On May 10 2017 09:55 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: With the length of time I've spent on TL, I can make either or both of the following conclusions: - TvZ is the most imbalanced matchup in BW history (in favor of T) - Zerg is the whiniest race in BW history As you noted, it's possible for both to be true! But in all seriousness, ZvP has also been super broken for long periods of time (just not today), and Protoss has had by far the least success overall. But everyone else turns on Protoss players when they complain =P | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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-NegativeZero-
United States2141 Posts
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1706 Posts
On May 10 2017 11:01 darktreb wrote: As you noted, it's possible for both to be true! But in all seriousness, ZvP has also been super broken for long periods of time (just not today), and Protoss has had by far the least success overall. But everyone else turns on Protoss players when they complain =P Haha, sad but true... It's been suggested the reason Terran has seen so much success, especially pre-Bisu (in other words, pre modern BW), was because there aint enuf Protoss getting far in tournaments. They were having too much difficulty getting past the Zergs. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On May 10 2017 10:10 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Back in the day thats pretty much how it was. Map makers would make maps, who already understood the meta and how to work subtle changes, and then the pros would play it and address it. Things might be a bit more amateur now but im sure a similar thing happens and will happen with the introduction of new maps.+ Yeah, map design is definitely the way to go at first here. The challenge is that it will really take a whole lot of efforts, imagination, headaches and possibly luck for the teams of players and mapmakers to succeed in creating the desired maps. It really should involve a lot of collaboration between the players and the mapmakers imo. | ||
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Terrorbladder
2713 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
But I assume the meta has changed since then? Bio to mech switch being safer and deadlier? How much does Terran mech play dependent on maps? Would really appreciate if someone could give me a history lesson on dirty/disgusting Terran mech v Zerg | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
On May 10 2017 11:39 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: Haha, sad but true... It's been suggested the reason Terran has seen so much success, especially pre-Bisu (in other words, pre modern BW), was because there aint enuf Protoss getting far in tournaments. They were having too much difficulty getting past the Zergs. After reading this thread I conclude Zergs are the whiniest race in BW. Soulkey wins an epic game vs Flash --> Zerg players be like meh Flash fucked up JD loses an epic game vs Last --> omg Terran imba how is Zerg supposed to play vs that. If you have been following classicyellow's stats Flash and Last have been top 1-2 terran for ages and JD's ZvT is nowhere near good enough to beat them yet. | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On May 10 2017 10:56 darktreb wrote: I concede that the decision to back off in the middle of a crazy game is not an easy one, especially lacking full vision. The specific moment I think he needed to reconsider was when we he moved into the top left with only ~8 Mutas left, and there was a couple Goliaths, a few Factories, and a couple Turrets still. Without lings coming in (which he did not have), there was no circumstance in which staying there was going to be beneficial. But, it's still a very hard spur of the moment decision. In this specific moment that you describe, whatever decision Jaedong or any zerg in his place would have took for these 8-10 mutas left, imho, would not have changed the winner of the game nor would have impacted the zerg player's chances of winning the game significantly. Claiming that Effort, Soulkey, Zero, Hero, Larva wins the game from then on while Jaedong in actuality didn't is (no offense but) borderline fairy-tale talk. On May 10 2017 10:56 darktreb wrote: ...Come on man - you're gonna quote me except also cut off the second half of what I said? That's intellectually dishonest. I said relative to how he is one of the greatest players of all time. Jaedong's game sense is ... Sure, prove it. | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On May 10 2017 12:18 Terrorbladder wrote: if you want some maps skewed against T just make 3p maps then. Other races just take the 3rd main+nat faster -> terran can't split map -> 1 main vs 2 mains late game -> T automatically has <50% to win every time No, it should slightly favour z over t, p over z and t over p simultaneously... I think... | ||
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zaMNal
Mongolia385 Posts
Zerg 1-8 Terran soulkey 0:1 mong hero 0:1 ssak hyun 0:1 last larva 0:1 last hyun 0:1 flash shine 0:1 flash effort 1:0 sea jaedong 0:1 ssak jaedong 0:1 last edit: Will probably be something like 2-11 (shine 1:3 mong) or 3-15 (soulkey 1:3 flash/last) at the end of the season. | ||
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ZeroChrome
Canada1001 Posts
On May 10 2017 14:03 zaMNal wrote: ASL season 3 ZvT stats (ro24 and ro16): Zerg 1-8 Terran soulkey 0:1 mong hero 0:1 ssak hyun 0:1 last larva 0:1 last hyun 0:1 flash shine 0:1 flash effort 1:0 sea jaedong 0:1 ssak jaedong 0:1 last edit: Will probably be something like 2-11 (shine 1:3 mong) or 3-15 (soulkey 1:3 flash/last) at the end of the season. Also Zerg 10-2 Protoss | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On May 10 2017 11:30 -NegativeZero- wrote: has anyone ever thought of doing a "community PTR" using modified maps to test these ideas for balance changes in-game? I doubt there's enough interest from players to actually do solid testing. Players have to spend time doing other stuff. Same problem with SC2 PTR. No one will actually invest time into it. On May 10 2017 12:41 RKC wrote: Been doing some research, and dug out the games of Fantasy v GGPlay in 2008 Incruit OSL. Insane set of games! So jaw-dropping seeing Terran rush to fac + port + armoury versus Zerg (as opposed to versus Protoss). But I assume the meta has changed since then? Bio to mech switch being safer and deadlier? How much does Terran mech play dependent on maps? Would really appreciate if someone could give me a history lesson on dirty/disgusting Terran mech v Zerg Fantasy started a phase of direct to mech play back in around 2009 I think iirc. But Zerg's solved it essentially. Direct mech is too slow to begin with. | ||
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Gak2
Canada418 Posts
On May 10 2017 02:41 darktreb wrote: People are making this into a false dichotomy between "BW is perfectly balanced on every map" and "JD deserved to lose for not playing perfectly". TvZ probably isn't "perfectly" balanced right now. Jaedong didn't play that great, especially past the 20 minute mark. Both can be true - I think both are true. What's definitely true is that Jaedong could have won this game had he played better, and not in "everything perfect god mode" ways, but in ways that are completely reasonable to expect for an elite Zerg player. I bet Effort, Soulkey, Zero, perhaps hero, and perhaps Larva (when not on stage) win that game if they get into the position Jaedong did right after the late game Muta switch. Nobody thinks BW is balanced on every map. But better players can beat worse players most of the time, on most maps. The thing is though, Last is the better player right now. Using this of all games as the prime example of TvZ imba is asinine. There are so many better examples. I've been watching Jaedong since 2006. One of Jaedong's weaknesses has always been his propensity for aggression (which is also one of his greatest strengths), and relatively mediocre game sense / late game decision making for a person who is probably the second greatest player of all time. Jaedong generally wins off of a combination of hyper aggression, and amazing mechanics. He was always able to scrape advantages other players couldn't, both because they didn't have the mechanics, and because they didn't have the balls. The problem is this playstyle is so damn effective that Jaedong never developed quite as good of "sloppy game" game sense. He still won a ton of these games because he was almost always the better player, and superior mechanics and killer instinct are still worth a lot in a sloppy game. But as soon as it looks like "attack attack attack" will work, his natural instinct is to go with that route, even if there's a better route. In this game, that situation came up after the Muta switch. He got a lot of value out of the Mutas, but he could have gotten FAR more value out of them by keeping them alive instead of throwing them away at the top left. If he keeps ~10 Mutas alive and harasses / flanks with them constantly, while taking both mineral only bases and perhaps even 3 o'clock, then he probably wins. This would have been Soulkey's instinct, and probably Effort's and Larva's as well. This is the stable way to win ZvT on Circuit Breaker once you have a brief late game advantage, because if you take both Mineral only bases, not only is the 6 o'clock gas buffered a bit, but each harass is proportionally less damaging for the very straightforward reason that when an expo is harassed when you're on 6-7 base, it's less damaging than when you're on 4-5 base. Once Jaedong lost the Mutas, all of a sudden Last could again march all the way down to the high ground outside of one of the mineral only bases. There was very little flanking, partly because Jaedong couldn't afford it having burned like 2000 / 2000 on Mutas. For all of Jaedong's great Lurker drop harass in the beginning of the late game, where was a Defiler and a Lurker under swarm to interrupt the flow of Terran units? All of this is very hard to do, but what is also getting ignored is how great Last played after the 20 minute mark. It definitely wasn't a great game by him in the first 20 minutes, but whereas a lot of Terrans would have crumbled or gotten passive, Last kept pumping out units and kept going to the high ground. It's really scary to move out as Terran when you don't have the full death ball put together, but Last kept doing it super effectively (though again would have been less effective with the threat of Mutas). Also, while Vultures are super strong, it does take a ton of work to lay mines over and over again. This is why the mineral only bases on CB benefit Zerg more than Terran. For Zerg, it just means infinity cracklings, which take very little effort to use. You can throw 6-24 cracklings at some expo on A-move in the late game and there's a decent chance they do damage. Sure they might all blow up to one mine, but Terran has to keep laying those mines. Problem is, Jaedong just never stabilized those mineral-only bases, in spite of the advantage they provide for Zerg in late game ZvT. Now you might say, "Jaedong badly wanted to kill top left, because if he doesn't it's really hard". I agree. But throwing Mutas only doesn't work. Mutas do like no damage to buildings, and as long as there are a few Factories up there, eventually enough 3-3 Goliaths will pop. It's like in PvT, as soon as the Zealots die, pull back the Dragoons. Here, as soon as you're down to just Mutas, pull them back because they are 10x more valuable as harass / flank / just being annoying, than slowing chipping away at Factories while Goliaths come out 3 at a time. This is a very straightforward concept. I'm not saying I "know better" than Jaedong - he surely knows this too, but his attack instincts are just too much sometimes in the heat of a game. Wow I agree with everything you said. I'd like to add that I think Soulkey vs Flash pretty much proved that you don't have to be on even bases with terran when they're in mech mode. Zerg seems to be able to go full sauron on 4 or 5 bases anyway, and adding more just gives additional avenues for vultures to harass. Once terran gets more bases, zerg has to really exploit the 2 weaknesses I see in mech: rebuilding siege tanks takes pretty damn long, and multipronged harass/attacks are very hard to handle. The muta switch is such a powerful card in a zerg's hand that I don't think there's any reason to not get +1 air attacks which is super cheap. Maybe +2 even. 3/3 tanks have 4 armor, which makes unupgraded mutas do 5 damage. +1 is +20% damage in that case. Jaedong would've cleaned up much faster when he did his tech switch. I agree with you that he shouldn't have thrown away his mutas on the top left. But the main reason this didnt work was because he had no reinforcements. This is because Last was brilliantly intercepting the reinforcements with vultures, and kiting them into spider mines. What was left of jaedongs reinforcements was like 2 heavily damaged ultras and a pitiful amount of zerglings (artosis mistakenly thought this was gonna be a huge army). This is definitely where jaedong lost the game. If you check, he went from 140 to 100 supply here. Speaking of which, it was spider mines that seemed to be Jaedong's bane today. I think zergs need to perfect clearing mines because terrans are very good at mining the map any chance they get. I think a handful of mutas (maybe 5) on permanent vulture/spider mine duty is necessary. Soulkey did something like this vs Flash, where his mutas lived for most of the game and they kept doing work. Furthermore, overlord drops just bypass mines entirely, so I'm glad we're seeing them more and more but I think they can be further abused. Eventually, I'd like to see multi pronged overlord attacks + macroing a new army + sending overlords back + loading up the new army + reinforcing, which seems very APM intensive but i'm sure the koreans can do it. All in all, I really don't think TvZ mech is imbalanced right now. Zergs just need to decisively figure out how to handle it, and practice execution. The only thing I think might still be imbalanced in TvZ is the difficult of holding a 3rd for zerg I think Shine vs Flash showed a very promising build against it but that's another topic | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
Jaedong made a lot of mistakes yeah. Literally every Starcraft player will make mistakes. Soulkey played a great game against Flash. Yes that happened. But you look at overall win rate and it's still TvZ Terran favoured. You can't say "It's balanced fine because Jaedong could have played better". Of course he could have. But that doesn't mean the matchup's balanced. And yes, ZvP is Zerg favoured, I don't think anyone's denying that. | ||
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Farkinator
United States283 Posts
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YASHSHAKAR
United States75 Posts
On May 10 2017 01:56 TheNewEra wrote: you think Mong or sSak are going to get to the final over Bisu? As much I was impressed by Mong from day 3, i wouldnt bet money on him beating Bisu if they faced off. However, both players are in top form. I love R8 Bo5 format because we really get to witness the clash of minds. The dominant player will usually show forth in the end. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On May 10 2017 15:15 Farkinator wrote: This thread really reminds me of the Korean Map Stats blog by artosis, but without incontrol and nony careening in to completely derail the discussion. So this InControl chap tends to get out of control? | ||
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YASHSHAKAR
United States75 Posts
This... We had TONS of toss when this thing started.. Many have failed Aiur, and have succumed to the zerg swarm. But now that "The day of the terrans" has just taken place, there might actually be hope for the vegabond race after all. Best would have to defeat soulkey first tho. And Bisu lol well.. Bisus gonna bisu.. Cant wait to see more action! | ||
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Terrorbladder
2713 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
On May 10 2017 14:44 neobowman wrote: I doubt there's enough interest from players to actually do solid testing. Players have to spend time doing other stuff. Same problem with SC2 PTR. No one will actually invest time into it. Fantasy started a phase of direct to mech play back in around 2009 I think iirc. But Zerg's solved it essentially. Direct mech is too slow to begin with. How did Zergs solve it? Go 2base hydra or muta? How is bio-mech better than pure mech? (Sorry about the stream of questions, really curious to know!) | ||
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Terrorbladder
2713 Posts
On May 10 2017 17:10 RKC wrote: They'll go greedy, so when Terran maxes out with a pure mech army Zerg is already sitting behind 5 bases and can Sauron Zerg the T to death. That's what I remember from watching in Kespa days. Bio-mech is better because a MnM army is more mobile and T won't have to cede map control to Z (mech is slow, no map control from beginning). Having a bio army roaming around the map keeps Z's 3rd timing in check and also means Z will need to spend gas on building Mutas and Lurkers -> cost the Z more gasHow did Zergs solve it? Go 2base hydra or muta? How is bio-mech better than pure mech? (Sorry about the stream of questions, really curious to know!) | ||
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O.P.
Sweden109 Posts
On May 10 2017 18:07 Terrorbladder wrote: They'll go greedy, so when Terran maxes out with a pure mech army Zerg is already sitting behind 5 bases and can Sauron Zerg the T to death. That's what I remember from watching in Kespa days. Bio-mech is better because a MnM army is more mobile and T won't have to cede map control to Z (mech is slow, no map control from beginning). Having a bio army roaming around the map keeps Z's 3rd timing in check and also means Z will need to spend gas on building Mutas and Lurkers -> cost the Z more gas 2-base muta can also wreck a meching terran pretty hard. T won't have enough stuff when the mutas pop. | ||
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hitthat
Poland2254 Posts
On May 10 2017 14:44 neobowman wrote: Fantasy started a phase of direct to mech play back in around 2009 I think iirc. But Zerg's solved it essentially. Direct mech is too slow to begin with. Ironicaly he also started a phase of mech switch (his game against Zero), wich was probably though as reversal of "fake mech" strat than, but evolved into current metagame. Also direct "pure mech" is relable, but it requires good map and insanely good skills in responding to enemy moves. Few terrans actually had that. | ||
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Akara12345
164 Posts
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TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
On May 10 2017 19:09 Akara12345 wrote: What's with the schedule on TL? did this really start nine minutes ago. wrong forum, wrong event | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4100 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
On May 10 2017 19:03 hitthat wrote: Ironicaly he also started a phase of mech switch (his game against Zero), wich was probably though as reversal of "fake mech" strat than, but evolved into current metagame. Also direct "pure mech" is relable, but it requires good map and insanely good skills in responding to enemy moves. Few terrans actually had that. Wow, seems like Fantasy was quite the Revolutionist! Would be great to have him back in BW... | ||
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Cade)Flayer
United Kingdom279 Posts
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halomonian
Brazil255 Posts
On May 10 2017 19:03 hitthat wrote: Ironicaly he also started a phase of mech switch (his game against Zero), wich was probably though as reversal of "fake mech" strat than, but evolved into current metagame. Also direct "pure mech" is relable, but it requires good map and insanely good skills in responding to enemy moves. Few terrans actually had that. also the big change (that i see, at least) is that fantasy eased the tech curve from bio to mech without relinquishing map contrl via the use of vultures and not giving time for the zerg to go for queen+spawn broodling | ||
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Archers_bane
United States1338 Posts
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hitthat
Poland2254 Posts
On May 10 2017 06:33 Liquid`Drone wrote: 4: I think the flash vs soulkey game showcased that zerg has options. Because that was not a game where flash fucked up. It was a game where soulkey played absolutely brilliantly, and I think if more zergs played at the level he did in that game, then I honestly have a really hard time seeing how terrans can maintain positive winning ratios. Nah, late mech TvZ is not that flawed. Its more even than late bio, at last. At last losing SV's ball on random scourge attacks is not a death sentence in the face of defilers and ultralisks. (unless it was a praise of SK play in that game, not assumption that late mech is in fact bad. In that case, I have to agree. Its difficult to pulled of that level of play and actually few can) | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4100 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28590 Posts
On May 11 2017 17:45 hitthat wrote: Nah, late mech TvZ is not that flawed. Its more even than late bio, at last. At last losing SV's ball on random scourge attacks is not a death sentence in the face of defilers and ultralisks. (unless it was a praise of SK play in that game, not assumption that late mech is in fact bad. In that case, I have to agree. Its difficult to pulled of that level of play and actually few can) Entirely the second part. Late game mech is incredibly difficult to play against, but I think playing late game mech against someone playing as well as soulkey did, is equally as hard. | ||
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3z3ki3l
Germany51 Posts
On May 11 2017 21:34 Liquid`Drone wrote: Entirely the second part. Late game mech is incredibly difficult to play against, but I think playing late game mech against someone playing as well as soulkey did, is equally as hard. Didnt see the game between Flash and SK. Which game was it? Can you link it maybe? Thanks | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
On May 11 2017 21:52 3z3ki3l wrote: Didnt see the game between Flash and SK. Which game was it? Can you link it maybe? Thanks It was posted right here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=26497342 | ||
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Burned Toast
Canada2040 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On May 11 2017 21:19 M2 wrote: For me the biggest imbalance in TvZ (assuming there is one) is mid game where Terran can control the whole map with 0 risk with 2 controls M&M, there is nothing that Zerg can do to deal with that offensively, neither Mutas nor Lurkers can actually attack that, so Terrans take free bases as many as they want. I would assume that late game ZvT will look way more balanced if the Zerg can get there with the same economy. So, if I am right, Zerg needs some kind of boost mid game to be able to actually threaten Terrans. For example (and this is just a random example) if lurker burrow time is reduced, than maybe terrans will not be able to kite for free lings/lurks armies, while killing all the lurkers and losing none of their units. But again this is just an example. Zergs need some kind of offensive power vs Terrans mid game imo While this is problem, it's just one of many that slightly push the balance towards Terran. If the map control issue you're talking about wasn't there, then Zergs would have a much better time. But the same could be said if Zerg could take their 3rd gases a bit more easily. Or if they weren't so entirely reliant on defilers. The key isn't identifying the biggest imbalance, but finding ways to adjust a number of them slightly so that Zergs have a slightly easier time. | ||
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freakonalich_
1 Post
Edit : Thanks killer1nz ! | ||
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killer1nz
New Zealand164 Posts
On May 12 2017 16:03 freakonalich_ wrote: When will be played the Ro8 the rest of the ASL? Strangely enough, I can't find the information anywhere http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Afreeca_Starleague_Season_3 Soulkey vs BeSt May 14, 2017 - 19:00 KST is the first Ro8 game | ||
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O.P.
Sweden109 Posts
On May 11 2017 21:19 M2 wrote: For me the biggest imbalance in TvZ (assuming there is one) is mid game where Terran can control the whole map with 0 risk with 2 controls M&M, there is nothing that Zerg can do to deal with that offensively, neither Mutas nor Lurkers can actually attack that, so Terrans take free bases as many as they want. I would assume that late game ZvT will look way more balanced if the Zerg can get there with the same economy. So, if I am right, Zerg needs some kind of boost mid game to be able to actually threaten Terrans. For example (and this is just a random example) if lurker burrow time is reduced, than maybe terrans will not be able to kite for free lings/lurks armies, while killing all the lurkers and losing none of their units. But again this is just an example. Zergs need some kind of offensive power vs Terrans mid game imo Not sure what level or situation you mean, but this seems completely wrong to me. If T moves out before SV, mutas will wreck T's base. Once SV's are out, T has map dominance until defilers come out. That's just how that matchup works. Problem as I see it is Z don't expand quickly or often enough. People speak of Z having problems securing a third on four player maps, and I would like to know when this suddenly became a problem. Z have secured thirds for 10+ years, and there was a time when Z wrecked P players when proper third base sim city-ing became a thing. | ||
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
On May 12 2017 16:56 O.P. wrote: Not sure what level or situation you mean, but this seems completely wrong to me. If T moves out before SV, mutas will wreck T's base. Once SV's are out, T has map dominance until defilers come out. That's just how that matchup works. Problem as I see it is Z don't expand quickly or often enough. People speak of Z having problems securing a third on four player maps, and I would like to know when this suddenly became a problem. Z have secured thirds for 10+ years, and there was a time when Z wrecked P players when proper third base sim city-ing became a thing. Z players are still wrecking P players with proper third base sim city - it's a different story vs Terran. I do feel that Jaedong took a bit too long getting the 3rd base but on the other hand he didn't scout the 3rax until his mutas got to Last's base. On the topic of TvZ imbalances: I feel like Zergs don't have as many options early game after the meta shifted even more towards Terrans getting an early center rax which does really well vs all early pool builds (4/5/9) as well as getting a BO win vs 3hatch before pool (except maybe in fringe cases). On the other hand Terrans economic opening (14cc) pretty much only loses to the same builds that their aggressive opening is beating (4/5 pool or 9pool speed). And it just seems like Terran is more often able to run away with the advantage vs Zerg due to this early BO lead. | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On May 12 2017 16:56 O.P. wrote: Not sure what level or situation you mean, but this seems completely wrong to me. If T moves out before SV, mutas will wreck T's base. Once SV's are out, T has map dominance until defilers come out. That's just how that matchup works. Problem as I see it is Z don't expand quickly or often enough. People speak of Z having problems securing a third on four player maps, and I would like to know when this suddenly became a problem. Z have secured thirds for 10+ years, and there was a time when Z wrecked P players when proper third base sim city-ing became a thing. With modern TvZ, 5 rax is king. With the 5 rax, Terran is allowed to move out and shut down any expansions Zerg is putting up while muta harass is still going on. I hesitate to call it map control because Terran can't really expand either but they are free to move out essentially. Even if their initial group gets gobbled up by good mutaling control, their production allows them to continue pushing against the weakened mutas and shut down the 3rd. Obviously, this isn't foolproof and skilled Zerg players can still outmatch weaker Terran players but it's been an extremely strong strategy overall and against players of Flash and Last's calibur, it feels nigh unbeatable without stuff like cheese. | ||
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TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
Edit: According to K.H.J. posts about sSaks situation it's gonna be sSak vs. Bisu | ||
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Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
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Aimhreidh
6 Posts
I mean, sSak was outplaying him and had an advantage, but there seems to be no clear excuse. Is this statistic actually accurate? It surprised me. Yes, he was trying to transition into ultras, yes he was lacking a macro hatch, yes he was struggling getting up a hatchery at the second base natural. But it just seems he phased out of it, assuming the UI thingy that tracks these numbers is accurate. | ||
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Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
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Piste
6167 Posts
On May 14 2017 01:15 duke91 wrote: Overmins/gas does not matter to ZvT, only whether you are behind base and map control. You can basically defend with a few lurkers/defilers anything terran has in mid game. What you gain from having a bank even at such a supply is that you can more readily react to what terran will do next. Since you can also bank larva, this isn't an issue. An issue it is in ZvZ and ZvP, but not ZvT unless you have to Sauron zerg, which JD was in no position to. Surely un-used minerals and gas matters, especially when you have enough to set two extra bases with couple lurks and defiler. Macro is pretty damn important. Building a bank should always come only after hitting 200. | ||
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CUTtheCBC
Canada91 Posts
The mapmakers could fix it but they don't... | ||
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Glioburd
France1911 Posts
.Edit : woops, this is a fail, wrong thread. | ||
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