EPT[ASL3] Ro16 Group D - Page 25
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jimminy_kriket
Canada5519 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28703 Posts
On May 10 2017 03:42 LRM)TechnicS wrote: I also thought Jaedong made an amazing game out of his early disadvantage but so many people here implied that he did or explicitly stated what mistakes he made that I had a 2nd thought of fully defending his bo and strategy decisions. I think trutaCz nailed it nicely though. Well, and again IMHO, yes and no. Jaedong was being everywhere because this is what ZvT is all about - taking the most out of every tiny bit of situation that arises and doing it as quickly and precisely as possible - usually practically needed only to survive. He absolutely must do it. Last seemingly didn't need to. Imagine in a TvZ a terran that consistently takes 5-6 seconds mid/lategame on average to react to micro his workers against harrass when needed vs a zerg player that consistently takes 5-6 seconds mid/late game on average to react to micro his workers vs terran's harrass. The zerg is toast. The terran is not (as the example of this game suggests). In an early bo advantange into a split-map situation like this one the terran doesn't feel the pressure of time. Time works against the zerg and for the terran. Last took a nice lead with his 14cc 2 barrack mnm attack and he knew all he had to do is not screw up really bad afterwards. I agree with trutacz's analysis. I can agree that he made a mistake with early game (although personally I dunno what build is best against last's), that he made a significant mistake losing all the mutas, and I personally think he shouldve had some more lurkers in the late game as well because lurker+swarm is the absolute worst for terran to deal with. But I still think he overall played a great game.  | ||
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GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
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Miragee
8584 Posts
On May 10 2017 02:42 Liquid`Drone wrote: There are several different factors at play here. Firstly, brood war has never been perfectly balanced. But it has still been amazing. Secondly, there have been periods of time where the game was significantly less balanced than it is today. It was still amazing. Third, nobody really knows or can suggest any balance changes that people overall would agree with, that wouldn't fuck up something. Maybe something tiny like 'tank upgrade +4 instead of +5 per upgrade', but overall, it's such a fiine line. It's very hard to find stuff that makes terran slightly worse vs zerg but not worse vs protoss, it's very hard to find stuff that makes zerg better vs terran but not vs protoss, it's very hard to make any significant change that doesn't actually break the game. Fourth, we've been playing the game without any balance patches for the past 16 years. While there have been periods where one or several matchups seemed 'very' imbalanced (like tvz atm), so far, it has always been fixed through a) map design b) evolving strategies. Fifth, although this specifically doesn't really apply to the pro level, anyone who feels a certain race is stronger, can feel free to choose that race. Good post, sums it up perfectly. | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5221 Posts
On May 10 2017 01:56 TheNewEra wrote: you think Mong or sSak are going to get to the final over Bisu? Yeah, especially Mong I'd say has a fighting chance. | ||
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Eleonora
29 Posts
On May 09 2017 22:17 SirGlinG wrote: Yeah I agree! It's ridicilous how much balance talk that comes up here. Yeah, so ridiculous "lol", why are people even going there ? ASL3 saw 10 TvZ matches, wanna tell me the current record ? Oh you don't know ? Allow me to help : 9 - 1. The only single game a Zerg won against a Terran is Effort against the almost-afk Sea. That was the only time. Please tell me, at which point discussing balance is allowed in your mind ? 20-1 ? Almost all Zergs are already out, so that won't happen (needed one more and only TvZ). So when you say : On May 09 2017 22:17 SirGlinG wrote: And it's important to remember that we're discussing just one game in which Zerg used one build order. There's always been eras of races being stronger than others, bonjwas taking over with a new style and talent, making people forget how to beat them and giving their race a lot of power and good ideas. This is simply not true. Zergs have used many strategies against T and they all failed outside of that very passive game from Sea. You then talk about these different eras that supposedely saw races rising and falling, but looking at the entire BW history i certainly don't see a lot of periods where T weren't close to the top, if not the absolute dominant race. From the early days with the most famous of all (Boxer) to the last days of the proleague with Flash (& Fantasy), you can't pretend a certain race has been over-represented compared to the two others. Which is not a big issue, but your point is not entirely valid. The reality is that we saw very short periods of dominance from Protoss players, usually in pack (the Three Kings, the Six Dragons etc) and the occasional reign of a few Zerg Bonjwas inside the Terran's longstanding dominance. Now regarding this type of comments : On May 09 2017 22:01 Zariel wrote: Cant u guys take a step back and enjoy the beauty in that game? On May 10 2017 02:42 Liquid`Drone wrote: Firstly, brood war has never been perfectly balanced. But it has still been amazing. Secondly, there have been periods of time where the game was significantly less balanced than it is today. It was still amazing. You might not understand it, but having a healthy BW scene relies on having an interesting and seemingly balanced game. So you could argue that the Terran going full defensive against any balance talk in this thread is actually damage control, but regardless, once a matchup (or the game) becomes predictible, when you see repetition ("like poetry") of the same sequence of events over and over across different games (remember Soulkey vs Bonjwa Mong ? Did it feel any different than JD vs Last ?), it becomes boring and disappointing. And you stop watching it. I'm not sure where the beauty is when you watch a guy struggle from the 5 min mark to lose in the end anyway. Sure, it's fantastic when a surprise actually happens (Soulkey vs Flash ASLTB, out of nowhere) but these "once in a blue moon events" won't offset the general feeling. And for the record, when was the game more unbalanced than now while still being "amazing", according to you ? Just so we know. Now obviously, here comes the "Bisu revolution" talking point and how we could see that happen again. As pointed out by this comment : On May 10 2017 01:47 Jacenoob wrote: I find TL's almost religious belief in SC balance odd. Yeah Bisu revolutionized PvZ, but so what? What makes you think the same thing can happen again for ZvT? And what if the opposite happens and Terran actually gets even stronger? All we have is current data and currently TvZ is absolutely broken on many maps to the point of 75%-85% matchups. Maybe you people (thinking otherwise) should take a look at what happened to chess. Chess still had "apparent" infinite strategic ressources a century ago, any opening becoming too strong would eventually be countered by something else, when certain games would become "stale", innovation and creation was always the solution. Bobby Fischer famously tinkered one for one of his world title matches. But what about now ? Chess at the highest level is dead, nobody today is anywhere near the popularity Kasparov had at his peak. Despite Carlsen (current #1) went a lot higher in ELO ranking (although there is talk about ELO inflation too so...). What's the issue you may ask ? Super-human memory and analysis from computers, shaving off any kind of uncertainty and leading games to be litterally replayed exactly the same up until the move #25 (meaning 50 total moves). And as a result : (almost) nobody cares. Thankfully BW is much more entertaining (for us at least), but i want to point out that with so much thoughts put into the game by the collective mind of the korean community, or even just pros, it's not unlikely, for a game that isn't "that" deep, that we might reach a kind of end-point in term of what "can" be done. If Zerg has actually ran out of options and we're stuck with this meta, then finding a solution won't be easy. And here i agree with : On May 10 2017 02:42 Liquid`Drone wrote: Nobody really knows or can suggest any balance changes that people overall would agree with, that wouldn't fuck up something. It's very hard to find stuff that makes terran slightly worse vs zerg but not worse vs protoss, it's very hard to find stuff that makes zerg better vs terran but not vs protoss, it's very hard to make any significant change that doesn't actually break the game. We've been playing the game without any balance patches for the past 16 years. While there have been periods where one or several matchups seemed 'very' imbalanced (like tvz atm), so far, it has always been fixed through a) map design b) evolving strategies. Fixing a little thing without screwing everything up and/or leading to meta relying only on patches like we see in SC2 is almost impossible. If, as i almost assume at this point, the strategic possibilities have almost been exhausted, the only one thing we can rely on is map design. But is it even possible to design a map where Z would be heavily favored against T ? I'm note sure, while the opposite is a recipe for nightmares. Side note : Fifth, although this specifically doesn't really apply to the pro level, anyone who feels a certain race is stronger, can feel free to choose that race. And having 80% of the player base playing the same race ? How interesting that would be. But the relative imbalance of T comes at a level most people can't reach anyway. P will remain the most popular race and P don't have that much problems with T. This discussion only matters for the pro scene and how entertaining it is to watch it. | ||
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Tripcho
Bulgaria31 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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RealityIsKing
613 Posts
He could have completely shut off the top 3 bases of Last. | ||
TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
On May 10 2017 05:44 Tripcho wrote: Do they said what maps will be used at RO8? Not in the 'show'. Afreeca wanted to decide after the Ro16 | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28703 Posts
2: I think zvt immediately becomes more zerg favored through simply removing open area behind natural minerals. There's also the option of tinkering with expansions with say, 5 mineral patches and 1 gas - these are really good for zvt. 3: 10 games is not a sample size. If it's 90:10 after 100 games, obviously there's a huge issue. But if the actual balance is more like 60:40, it's still highly plausible that we sometimes get 9:1 streaks. I do think it's more along the lines of 60:40. When looking at say, the afreeca streamers per month for April list, the best two terrans, flash and last, had tvz win rates of 72% and 67% respectively, over 80-90 game sample sizes. In March, only Flash was there, he had 72%. The two best zergs from the same lists have had 50% and 63%. To me, this indicates that the actual rates are more along 60-40 rates. And personally, I actually find that acceptable. (60-40 is about as high as I want to go, though). 4: I think the flash vs soulkey game showcased that zerg has options. Because that was not a game where flash fucked up. It was a game where soulkey played absolutely brilliantly, and I think if more zergs played at the level he did in that game, then I honestly have a really hard time seeing how terrans can maintain positive winning ratios. 5: I'm not arguing that we shouldn't care about balance. I'm arguing that the game doesn't need patching, and that I didn't like people complaining about balance after a game where I felt the terran won because he played better. But having smarter map pools, that makes total sense to me. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28703 Posts
On May 10 2017 06:09 RealityIsKing wrote: Let's be real, Jaedong should have attacked the command centers with the mutalisks instead of going after the workers. He could have completely shut off the top 3 bases of Last. on par with your political analysis | ||
Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
I don't mind the slight edge that Terran has always held over Zerg and in this particular instance agree that Jaedong could have played better. However, don't feel that JD played so markedly worse as to deserve getting crushed like that. The matchup is just not as fun to watch anymore; Z feels like it has no counterplay besides one or two small windows. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10227 Posts
On May 10 2017 01:45 VioleTAK wrote: I really enjoyed JD's last game, even though he lost, that was fantastic! HOLY SHIT VIOLETAK IS BACK??? | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On May 10 2017 06:44 Last Romantic wrote: The problem with something like a 60/40 MU is then in a bo5 Z has essentially no chance - <10% to win. This is assuming equivalently skilled players though. That said, I completely agree with the sentiment that we need to look at balance. On May 10 2017 02:42 Liquid`Drone wrote: Nobody really knows or can suggest any balance changes that people overall would agree with, that wouldn't fuck up something. It's very hard to find stuff that makes terran slightly worse vs zerg but not worse vs protoss, it's very hard to find stuff that makes zerg better vs terran but not vs protoss, it's very hard to make any significant change that doesn't actually break the game. We've been playing the game without any balance patches for the past 16 years. While there have been periods where one or several matchups seemed 'very' imbalanced (like tvz atm), so far, it has always been fixed through a) map design b) evolving strategies. I don't entirely agree here. There are some units which are used in every matchup ubiquitously, such as tanks, lings, mutas and many more, but there are units, buildings and upgrades we can tinker with that are essentially one matchup use. I like to look at Bio for TvZ. What happens if you make stim take 10 seconds longer or cost an extra 50/50? That's definitely a small change, but we want to start small. We still won't see bio in TvT or TvP, but that's definitely a nerf for TvZ. How bout increasing medic build time by 3 seconds? Again, small change but only affecting TvZ. If it's not enough, jack it up a bit for the next patch. Slow and tiny increments, maybe twice or 3 times a year would be my ideal. Lots of other small bio changes we could do. Heck, if we don't want to nerf early game bio then modify irradiate a bit, maybe slow down its damage so it doesn't kill as quickly (but same overall damage). Zerg units are trickier to work because they're all used in every matchup but how about Dark Swarm research time? It's not nearly as critical of a research in ZvP as it is in ZvT. Reduce the research time by 10 or 20 seconds. Makes timing windows in ZvT a lot easier without affecting its use in ZvP that much. This is not as safe as the Terran changes I suggested (as there's a possibility it could impact ZvP) but I don't think it's too outrageous of a suggestion. If we want to work ZvP a bit (which I think is a great idea), Corsair buff. Give it +10 hp or faster build time, etc. It still has 0 use in PvT and PvP (One could argue that there could be uses we haven't thought up of but the possibility is so slim that I think we can discount it.) Edit: I meant Consume research time not Dark swarm research time. | ||
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YASHSHAKAR
United States75 Posts
On May 09 2017 19:46 SCC-Faust wrote: I am so depressed guys. Lol crazy day | ||
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YASHSHAKAR
United States75 Posts
On May 10 2017 06:59 neobowman wrote: While I agree with the idea that we can't look at one game to talk about balance, the statistics are still there to talk about. A balance like 60/40 is very significant. This is assuming equivalently skilled players though. That said, I completely agree with the sentiment that we need to look at balance. I don't entirely agree here. There are some units which are used in every matchup ubiquitously, such as tanks, lings, mutas and many more, but there are units, buildings and upgrades we can tinker with that are essentially one matchup use. I like to look at Bio for TvZ. What happens if you make stim take 10 seconds longer or cost an extra 50/50? That's definitely a small change, but we want to start small. We still won't see bio in TvT or TvP, but that's definitely a nerf for TvZ. How bout increasing medic build time by 3 seconds? Again, small change but only affecting TvZ. If it's not enough, jack it up a bit for the next patch. Slow and tiny increments, maybe twice or 3 times a year would be my ideal. Lots of other small bio changes we could do. Heck, if we don't want to nerf early game bio then modify irradiate a bit, maybe slow down its damage so it doesn't kill as quickly (but same overall damage). Zerg units are trickier to work because they're all used in every matchup but how about Dark Swarm research time? It's not nearly as critical of a research in ZvP as it is in ZvT. Reduce the research time by 10 or 20 seconds. Makes timing windows in ZvT a lot easier without affecting its use in ZvP that much. This is not as safe as the Terran changes I suggested (as there's a possibility it could impact ZvP) but I don't think it's too outrageous of a suggestion. If we want to work ZvP a bit (which I think is a great idea), Corsair buff. Give it +10 hp or faster build time, etc. It still has 0 use in PvT and PvP (One could argue that there could be uses we haven't thought up of but the possibility is so slim that I think we can discount it.) Corsair buff is nice but I would really get some great use out of scouts if they were just cheaper. Either that or a swap for weapon range upgrades over sight upgrade. I like the idea of scouts being able to hard counter detection units, making way for arbiter escorts and DTs to really get into the action. | ||
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sM.Zik
Canada2550 Posts
him dropping out makes me wanna cry but oh well. shouldnt have lost that game vs ssak and that cost him that round | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On May 10 2017 07:13 YASHSHAKAR wrote: Corsair buff is nice but I would really get some great use out of scouts if they were just cheaper. Either that or a swap for weapon range upgrades over sight upgrade. I like the idea of scouts being able to hard counter detection units, making way for arbiter escorts and DTs to really get into the action. While a scout buff is certainly interesting, I'm much more of a proponent of changes that would affect the meta as little as possible while balancing the matchups. Obviously, any unit change is going to have an effect on the meta but trying to minimize that while maximizing balance would be my ideal goal. Something like a scout change would be much more about trying to buff a unit to change the meta rather than changing a unit to improve balance which is what I'm looking for. I'd like to make balance discussion thread but considering how well it went last time I did that, I don't entirely think the community can be civil enough to keep the discussion on-topic and away from spamming joke-changes and such. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28703 Posts
Defilers already start with dark swarm. Maybe you meant consume? (When I do that 2 hatch defiler rush, my consume finishes researching before my defilers reach their base anyway. slight difference in defense, though. ) That said, I just don't agree with the approach of continuous small balance changes. Balance wise, it's the same game we played back in 2001. Gameplay wise, it's incredibly different. Strategies have evolved based on a) skill of players b) maps c) popular strategies among your opposition. This organic strategical evolution is proven to work. Up until 2012, the OGN starleagues had 14 terran champs, 10 zerg, 10 protoss, 12 terran runner up, 13 zerg, 9 protoss. The Sonic starleague, starting 2012, has given 4 terrans, 4 zergs, 3 protoss winners, 5 terran 3 zerg 3 protoss runner up. These statistics are completely fine with me.. The previous ASL had a tvt final. But among the top 8 players, you also only had 2 terrans. (4 protoss, 2 zerg). I'm all for choosing different maps, or making slight adjustments to maps. For example make it slightly harder to defend naturals against muta harassment. Maybe have more inverse ramp maps - terran is slightly worse on those. But the game does not need changes. | ||
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