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On May 09 2017 22:06 trutaCz wrote:
Well i actually think that throwing away mutas was the most important factor, they were only 1-0. If he had back them after doing some damage to cut reinforcements from the main base he would have won the game in my opinion.
Yeah, he would have used them to clear mines and keep vultures at bay.
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On May 09 2017 22:02 quirinus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2017 21:59 LRM)TechnicS wrote:On May 09 2017 21:25 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On May 09 2017 21:21 LRM)TechnicS wrote:On May 09 2017 21:12 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On May 09 2017 21:10 KenZy wrote:
ZvT seems... unfair first time in my life i gonna say it but zerg deserved to loss. sorry but Jaedong made the best out of this bo lose situation. I mean by the time jaedong took his 4th base, Last was on 5 and was taking his 6th base. The meaningful part of the game was 6base terran vs 4 base zerg. Last played so bad i cant believe it. Jaedong drops lurkers with defilers on workers and Last does absolutely nothing, not even moving away his scvs. Last was losing big armies left and right for nothing. Last didn't even bother to stop mining from that top left base when it was sure he will lose the scvs. Yes, maybe jaedong could have made much more with that first cloud of loaded overlords or with his muta switch by going straight to kill top left base of last there but still... technics it is normal the terran takes more bases doing mech,it doesnt matter,Jaedong just did go for all in situation.even soulkey understood the power of 2 mineral bases.control the map keep going.The muta move was a good idea not a good execution,he did nothing,he just suicided his army to clean turrets and units.and cuz no eco power he couldnt finish the task.very sad game past the 18 minutes. Eon, Jaedong came from behind and did substantial damage after a severe bo disadvantage. Last played much worse and still got away with a win imo. Saying that zerg deserved to loss is not very right I think. A severe bo disadvantage would be if last went 5rax. This was ok. Eon is right. For the last part of that game i was wishing jd would take 1-2 expos and make a round of drones.
I am talking about Last going 13-14CC while doing a lot of damage with his initial mnm attack. That was well enough for any followup by Last afterwards.
edit: and yes, 5rax was another good option for Last
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Sure that is a fair point, BUT how cost efficient were these mutalisks right there with how it went? How many tanks, vultures, etc did they kill before going down? Did he actually "throw them away" or was that decent?
It's easy to say "he could have done better" , you know what? Last could have done better as well.
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I really think JD lost this by not keeping the pressure on the top left. You can see right as Last is on his heels the most JD had a huge army of 6 ultras + 1 defiler + 15 lings sitting at his natural. He used them for a drop on the 1 o'clock mineral only base. If he added that force with his muta switch I think he could have taken out top left for good and sealed the game.
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On May 09 2017 22:06 Jacenoob wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2017 21:50 HalcyonRain wrote:On May 09 2017 21:44 outscar wrote:On May 09 2017 21:40 Jacenoob wrote:On May 09 2017 21:29 BigFan wrote:
You guys are free to discuss the game but quit with the balance whining.
The reason why he lost was that at least with maps like Circuit Breaker Zerg just has no fair fighting chance, the game is imbalanced, that is the reason why the game ended the way it ended, if you like it or not. Huh? We used to call FS imba late game now CB too? C'mon, this map is most balanced one. Don't start whine just because of one game. If Flash was in Last's seat none of you could say all of that. I assume you're joking right? http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/maps/404_Circuit_BreakerTvZ 59% ZvP 61% PvT 45.6% http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/maps/237_Fighting_SpiritTvZ 63% ZvP 51% PvT 47.4% Take a look at the games from this year, it is even worse than just 60-40. CB is 12-2 (without today's game), FS is 6-2.
Jeez that's bad. I guess at the end of the day until Zerg has a build that can take a 3rd vs 5 rax AND deal with vultures ZvT is not going to be very fun, to watch or play. Although I guess there could be new maps that try to take into account that Zerg has a hard time taking a 3rd and that Terran goes late mechanics in the matchup and try to balance it that way. I won't hold my breath though, Camelot is the EXACT opposite of this.
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On May 09 2017 21:34 Netto. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2017 21:26 SirGlinG wrote:
Another thing. There must be good timing windows to stop a T expanding this much. For example the window when T tech switches or takes his 4th or 5th? Dunno about those lategame windows though but this mechy money play must be stopped! The moment when T switches is also the moment that zerg is stablilizing. What I mean is that when T switches Z is filling his 4th base and has only a bunch of lurkers and defilers to hold his 2nd and 4th base. So it isn't the window for zerg to strike. Zergs strike a bit later when they establish 4th base, and this is exactly what happend in this game - JD tried to put a lot of pressure after establishing 4th but Last was too much... Is it balanced? At first glance it looks like it isn't. Both made some mistakes but somehow Last was all the time on top and up 50 supply. However history of Broodwar teaches us not to hurry making such conclusions about imbalance. Maybe Soulkey will be the one to bring the solution since he is doing well vs T. We will see.
Yeah I agree! It's ridicilous how much balance talk that comes up here. Was zvp imba during saviors era? Should they have patched the game then? Was Pvz imba when Bisu turned that all around? Should protoss been nerfed two months after zerg should have been nerfed? (Not questioning u, just putting up some general rhetorical questions for people who seem to believe that 50/50/50 is the only and ultimate goal of a rts game, that patches should meddle with the natural process of the players finding new ways to counter strong shit. It's not that fun when anyone can beat anyone, stuff gets nerfed. I hope TL can remain this way, not normalize questioning of balance. That can be in certain threads for it where people add their arguments, stats for it but in these other threads we discuss the game as it is. Blaming balance is just to give up. Bw is still developing new strats, like this one. Why would this one be " Die Endlösung"? Vultures has always been this strong.
And it's important to remember that we're discussing just one game in which Zerg used one build order. There's always been eras of races being stronger than others, bonjwas taking over with a new style and talent, making people forget how to beat them and giving their race a lot of power and good ideas. Like an answer sheet to it's times current meta.
JD went for three hatch muta. There are other build orders with other timing windows and follow ups. And JD could have won this game if he made better decisions. So I don't think it's time to fully rule out his game here but he did end up in a big disadvantage in late midgame because of his buildorder.
The streaming situation and people not living in a teamhouse with other top players of the other races, talking, helping eachother with how to counter new dominating strats is gonna slow down the process of countering this mech play though. I'd put my money on shine doing some weird nice shit, probably failing but showing a way u can face it ( if mong goes mech). Sauron zerg is dead now though, a new one has to rise from the ashes. A phoenix zerg saving the race. (It's shine btw ...)
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TLADT24920 Posts
On May 09 2017 21:40 Jacenoob wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2017 21:29 BigFan wrote:
You guys are free to discuss the game but quit with the balance whining.
That's the point right. Discuss the game. We can pretend that JD just wasn't good enough, that he lacked multitasking or that his control was poor. But I don't think that would be honest, he played amazing and nobody in the world can pull off the perfection in control throughout such a long game that some people are suggesting here. The reason why he lost was that at least with maps like Circuit Breaker Zerg just has no fair fighting chance, the game is imbalanced, that is the reason why the game ended the way it ended, if you like it or not.
Did you forget about his razor thing defense at his expansion or when he plagued Last's SCVs at his expansion but didn't target his workers so he killed, guess what, 0 workers? This game is a painful reminder of Killer vs Mind in SSL11, also on Circuit Breaker where Killer almost broke Mind in similar fashion (no drops, just straight up aggression off 4-5 bases). Guess what happened there? Killer ended up losing because Mind defended and survived and he overextended. There were a lot of reasons Jaedong lost this game after x minutes and balance whining serves no purpose and doesn't shed light on what the issues were. Both players had their bad and great plays. In the end, Last won and Jaedong lost. I'll leave the explanation to others.
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On May 09 2017 21:36 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2017 21:34 Stax736 wrote:On May 09 2017 21:23 duke91 wrote:On May 09 2017 21:21 Uldridge wrote:
You mean that spider mines are so much more cost efficient, but late game cracklings are probably the most efficient unit in the game.
They buffer for the Ultras, drag mines (hopefully in mech units) AND have the best dps in the game.
Those cost efficient lings which die by 5 to a single mine. 125 minerals vs 25. Wow look how cost efficient lings are vs a bunch of 75 mineral vultures as well. On May 09 2017 21:22 Stax736 wrote:On May 09 2017 21:19 XenoX101 wrote:
I didn't see anywhere near as many darkswarms from JD after mid-game. That's when he started losing skirmishes across the map. I think he got overconfident after almost taking out the top-left. Come to think of it, he didn't destroy any of Last's command centers, which allowed Last to replenish his units. Despite Jaedong doing more economic harassment, he was on 4 bases for quite a while. You know there is that spell called 'lift' which makes CC's invincible against anything Zerg has lategame. User was temp banned for this post. Oh I'm aware of lift, but most zerg players still attempt to destroy a base even in late game. The only time Jaedong attempted to destroy last's CC was the upper-right expansion. The point is Jaedong didn't do economic damage which is absolutely necessary against mech, and he didn't expanded and that cost him the game. he did a bit of everything complemented with nothing.this is the same when you are doing a semi all in that fails,u are alive but dont expect to win.
The turning point was when jaedong attempted to destroy last's upper-left base but failed, and instead lost all his mutas. Had JD simply attacked the upper-left with lings/ultras or a combination with his mutas he probably would have won, but instead suicided his mutas. Despite the economic harassment, Last never lost a CC.
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Btw playing for so long on 4 bases was intentional. That wasn't a mistake.
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eonzerg and technics are back to not agreeing with each other :D damn how time flies....
also can we pretty please stop the balance talk or else im gonna cry T_T
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Very new to watching BW. How are the maps that each match is played on chosen? And why do BW leagues prefer bo1 over bo3 group format?
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On May 09 2017 22:19 trutaCz wrote:
Btw playing for so long on 4 bases was intentional. That wasn't a mistake.
But in the end JD was mining out and couldn't keep up with Last's macro. It was intentional, but it ended up being a mistake not taking the mineral expansions. None the less Last was vulnerable when he lost all those tanks.
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You guys are overreacting about imbalance. JD made a lot of poor decisions and blunders but still managed to have a winning chance at the point of his muta switch.
1. JD refuses to take the mineral expasions. He would have had a string of lings all game coming if he had taken these, plenty of hatcheries to spare here.
2. JD do not use burrow as many players have started to. Yes it can be semicountered with scan, but it makes it SO MUCH MORE INTENSIVE for the terran to snipe drones when lings are there also (hard to click on burrowed workers, in a game where 100 things are happening). And lets remember unit control and APM is a resource in this wonderful game.
3. JD has never had very good decision making vs mech but his insane mechanics makes the games often go in his favor anyway. For instance the point about mutas. He seems to not understand that he must be a bit more careful with the "counter" units like mutas and lurkers. Mutas and lurkers are the key to winning vs mech but not in the classic way, but must be used like DT's and corsairs. Going in when there is a window for herass or countering some units and then saving them for later or just for the potential risk the terran have knowing they are in the game. I remember JD doing this also back in the kespa era where he also had perfect timing with them (as in this game) and then used them OK but then lost them. Corsairs in PVZ is the same, you go in but if there are too many hydras/spores you just save them a bit a just the mere threat of them makes the Z not want to move out or dictates the unit composition.
Another bad decision was that he was very keen to attack multiple places when he also busted the 11 expansion. Lets assume his mindset was all in at that point which is why he suicided 24(?) muts there, then he should have send EVERYthing to that place as the only disadvantage about mech is the slow tanks. He could have taken out that relatively fresh base I think. Instead he send small gangs of units into the other bases stopping mining yes, but the terran was not using his apm for that anyway (nor did he need to). He needed to save his 11 base.
I remember this was the same back in KESPA where players like Effort, zero and others always seemed to understand mech play much better. I think it was Zero that started using overlords to drop ultras etc first and Effort that invented the late muta switch(?)
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does anyone know what maps will be played at the quarterfinals? Ro8? is it bo3 right?
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Germany3128 Posts
On May 09 2017 22:32 wabe.PrayHard wrote:
does anyone know what maps will be played at the quarterfinals? Ro8? is it bo3 right?
Maps for Ro8 aren't revealed yet. Afreeca wanted to decide after Ro16. Complete bracket will be Bo5
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Croatia9505 Posts
On May 09 2017 22:19 trutaCz wrote:
Btw playing for so long on 4 bases was intentional. That wasn't a mistake.
It was probably both.
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On May 09 2017 22:32 wabe.PrayHard wrote:
does anyone know what maps will be played at the quarterfinals? Ro8? is it bo3 right?
Ro8 is bo5
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Yes, I feel like people are overestimating JD somewhat. His first game vs sSak showed that his game's still very raw. Last on the other hand is top1-2 TvZ player along with Flash. If anything I'd be more willing to even contemplate balance issues if JD won.
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On May 09 2017 22:17 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2017 21:40 Jacenoob wrote:On May 09 2017 21:29 BigFan wrote:
You guys are free to discuss the game but quit with the balance whining.
That's the point right. Discuss the game. We can pretend that JD just wasn't good enough, that he lacked multitasking or that his control was poor. But I don't think that would be honest, he played amazing and nobody in the world can pull off the perfection in control throughout such a long game that some people are suggesting here. The reason why he lost was that at least with maps like Circuit Breaker Zerg just has no fair fighting chance, the game is imbalanced, that is the reason why the game ended the way it ended, if you like it or not. Did you forget about his razor thing defense at his expansion or when he plagued Last's SCVs at his expansion but didn't target his workers so he killed, guess what, 0 workers? ..
Lol at suggesting Jaedong failed to micro his two lurker drop at different expos while not mentioning Last completely disregarding those and not even pulling his workers in the first place. This goes to show how the lurk-defiler drop might turn expensive and risky harrass (the risk of not killing anything, losing overlords on the way) to do as opposed to vultures harrassing undefended mineral lines.
This was more of a "im not there" by Last type of moment then "im not microing good enough" type of moment by Jaedong.
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On May 09 2017 22:35 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2017 22:19 trutaCz wrote:
Btw playing for so long on 4 bases was intentional. That wasn't a mistake. It was probably both.
It's a build order he picked, he wanted to be agressive with timings. It's so simple to judge for all of you while u see whole map and point out both mistakes. Yes both of them made mistakes, you can't play without them.
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EPT
