What is this? Welcome to the D Ranks Team League Season 5!
This is a for fun team league for players in the D ranks. The aim is to provide a team for new/lower level players to practice with. Hopefully, this will achieve two things: Interest more people in Brood War, and help you get better at it. While having fun!
When? The league starts on August 17 2013 @ 17:00 GMT (+00:00) and takes place every Saturday following that. It will have a regular season of 10 weeks with the top 4 teams advancing to the playoffs.
Where? The tournament will be held in channel op DRTL on the iCCup server.
How to watch: L_Master will be casting sometimes, other casters that are interested please indicate your interest and I can add you to the list http://www.twitch.tv/l_master
Format: Teams will play one bo5 with an ace match. Team captains will have until the Thursday before the match to form their lineups and relay them to an admin. The selected players will play a bo1 to decide the outcome for that map. First to team to win three maps wins the match.
Rules: If you have an issue during match time please contact sGs.LMaster on iCCup to resolve it.
No excessive BMing. Manner CCs, Hatcheries and Nexii, as well as pylon hearts, nukes and infested terrans however, are encouraged.
Winning team sends replays to drits5@yahoo.com following the matches. All 5 replays must be put into one zip/compressed file for download
Winning team's captain must PM me the result of their match.
Standard ICCUP rules apply.
No excessive chatting, e.g. do not be distracting during the middle of the game.
If players are race pickers they must announce their races within 12 hours of the lineups getting posted.
Players need to identify which team they are playing with in their profile during match time.
Players must play using the ID they used to sign up.
Games must be played on the maps listed in the schedule.
Games may be postponed between players IF the postponement is scheduled at least 12 hours ahead of the match time and both captain were notified.
Maps must come from the latest ICCUP mappack.
If a player disconnects in the first three minutes then a regame will be granted. If the same player disconnects again they will be d/q. Any disconnect after three minutes will be reviewed by sGs.LMaster unless one of the players willingly forfeits.
Race picking will be allowed, but if you pick to play a certain race on a given day, you must continue playing that race throughout the whole day. You will only be allowed to change your race for the next week. For the purposes of this league, random will not be allowed.
Map Pool: Fighting Spirit Wind and Cloud 815 III Pamir Plateu Neo Ground Zero Circuit Breaker Destination Resonance II
Who can play: This league is only for D-/D/D+ rank players who are willing to participate consistently. This means MAX RANK. On ANY account. You cannot signup with a D account if you have been yellow or higher on another.
You may ask to to play if you don't fit the criteria and we will review the case. IF you attempt to sign-up without notifying me of having achieved a higher rank on the listed account of any other account YOU WILL NOT PLAY. There are no exceptions to this. Don't fuck up here or you will just get banned
The exception is players who played in DRTL S4. All players from those are exempt for having to inform me of their situation as I already am aware.
How to Sign up: Since this is the fourth season, previous season teams will be allowed to re-enter the competition. If you didn't participate in the previous seasons, but want to form a team with your friends and enter it, it will also be allowed. If you want to sign up as a team, PM me on the forums.
If you want to sign up as a free agent reply to this thread with the following info: Rank: ICCUP account: Race:
If you are a higher rank player, but think you'll have the time to help out, you can sign up as a coach.
Do you want to cast? If you want to cast the league, PM me or skype me (luciditymasters)
I will note that I am seriously considering a much stricter rule on those of us, including myself, that can probably hit C-. We have seen a dramatic drop off in true D's or D- players in this league...and I think that is in part because it has become more of a D+/C- league.
I have not made a decision yet, but there may be limited or zero eligibility for players that have hit C-/shown results consistent with being able to hit C-.
Most of this league can probably hit C- so if you're going to be more strict you'll probably have to reassemble most of the teams since most of the members won't be able to participate.
On July 24 2013 09:46 tonight wrote: Most of this league can probably hit C- so if you're going to be more strict you'll probably have to reassemble most of the teams since most of the members won't be able to participate.
Maybe limit the amount of players who can hit c- on lineups?
On July 24 2013 09:46 tonight wrote: Most of this league can probably hit C- so if you're going to be more strict you'll probably have to reassemble most of the teams since most of the members won't be able to participate.
Maybe limit the amount of players who can hit c- on lineups?
Yea, either that or number of games that can be played by "C-" guys. Right now I'm just leaving discussion open while taking signups to see people's thoughts.
A nice thing i saw going on in the C ranks teamleague, and works well As far as i know, is to have 2 notable D+/C- players for each team. That raises the overall standard while keeping the base D.
I have another idea, tell me what you people think about it.
To implement, based on Birdie' s ranking system, that players who want to play in the week, play each other based on their ranking. The objective is to match people with actual same skill level. In other words, if a player is ranked #3 from on team, he will play the top #rank from the other team, and so on until the end.
As for maps, they could be organized the first week by having every top/ second/third/fourth/fifth/sixt rank maps decided, and then going down in a loop
Example #1 week Fs top, #2 week FS second, etc.
This idea is based around the swiss system of matching people to play
The downside is this would kinda break the sporting "lineups and i don' t know who i will be facing until LU are out" . With this system you are much more likely to know who is playing.
The upside is it would allow people to play more against a similar rank to theirs. Obviously Birdie would have to make an August D ranking system, like the one he did past september. I was studying that one and i could see similar players in similar spots.
On another note, i would really like ACE matches to be again
On July 24 2013 06:00 L_Master wrote: I will note that I am seriously considering a much stricter rule on those of us, including myself, that can probably hit C-. We have seen a dramatic drop off in true D's or D- players in this league...and I think that is in part because it has become more of a D+/C- league.
I have not made a decision yet, but there may be limited or zero eligibility for players that have hit C-/shown results consistent with being able to hit C-.
It's true that the overall skill has risen, but it's hard to tell if someone have actually passed the strong D+ mark yet. I believe that if you can climb to C- fairly steadily, and reach C in a reasonable amount of games, you shouldn't be playing here. I don't know anyone who actually would fall in this category though, by recent results atleast. I think it's pretty obvious who the strongest players in the league are, but these players are so close in skill that it's hard to say that some of them are too good, if you at the same time say that some of them are ok. That's the big issue here. If you mention player A, you might as well mention player B, and then player C, and then you end up with a list of 20 players, where there's a distinct difference in skill between the top and bottom player, but no distinct border inbetween. I think max rank C- is a good border, ie if you hit C you're out, but some ppl might want to put the border lower than that. There's also the issue of most players not laddering enough to gauge their max rank.
This page gives a better estimation of the rank, as it also considers prior seasons on iccup, and I believe it also estimates the rank of your opponent. It's only been around for the past 2-3 seasons so it's definately lacking info for many players.
Here's the top 20~ ranked players, out of the player pool from DRTL4. I also added L3gendary for reference. The more games, the more accurate it is. + Show Spoiler [D ranks iccup ranking] +
It's nice to see that Rauk (who have left the league) is the only player on the wrong side of L3gendary. There's a lack of games for most of the players up there though, so a few of the players might pass him if you add 50 games to their list.
I think it would be interesting to gauge the size of the group of D rank players who have previously chosen not to participate because of the skill levels. I know that there are players like that, because I've seen this being brought up before. I just don't know how many they are. If there's plenty of them, I think having a stricter rank policy would be justified.
On July 24 2013 06:00 L_Master wrote: We have seen a dramatic drop off in true D's or D- players in this league...and I think that is in part because it has become more of a D+/C- league.
This is a key problem. If we remove all the players who can hit C- (probably many of the more committed and reliable players), we are left with an extremely low population unless we get a strong influx of D players. I foresee recruiting enough players to sustain a league again is going to be the hard part.
On July 24 2013 18:51 pebble444 wrote: A nice thing i saw going on in the C ranks teamleague, and works well As far as i know, is to have 2 notable D+/C- players for each team. That raises the overall standard while keeping the base D.
I have another idea, tell me what you people think about it.
To implement, based on Birdie' s ranking system, that players who want to play in the week, play each other based on their ranking. The objective is to match people with actual same skill level. In other words, if a player is ranked #3 from on team, he will play the top #rank from the other team, and so on until the end.
As for maps, they could be organized the first week by having every top/ second/third/fourth/fifth/sixt rank maps decided, and then going down in a loop
Example #1 week Fs top, #2 week FS second, etc.
This idea is based around the swiss system of matching people to play
The downside is this would kinda break the sporting "lineups and i don' t know who i will be facing until LU are out" . With this system you are much more likely to know who is playing.
The upside is it would allow people to play more against a similar rank to theirs. Obviously Birdie would have to make an August D ranking system, like the one he did past september. I was studying that one and i could see similar players in similar spots.
On another note, i would really like ACE matches to be again
I was also thinking that using some sort of ranking to match players might solve some problems. Having ranked the five participating players from each team 1 through 4-5 (from best to worst) and letting them play the corresponding ranks on the other team + Show Spoiler +
Team A vs Team B rank A1 vs rank B1 rank A2 vs rank B2 etc.
This way hopefuly most matches will be even. As far as the ranking system used, I'd say that birdie's ranking probably won't do it since far too many players have far too few games to be accurately gauged. So the team captain should annouce his team ranking before each matchday. Obviously this is quite subjective and would also require fairness on the side of every team, but it has to potential to make the league more fun for everybody participating.
Additionaly, it might be worth considering changing the format of the league from pro league bo5 to either: - pro league bo7 with an ace match - simply 5 matches which will always be played without ace
The reasoning being that this would allow more people to play and coupled with a ranked matching (e.g. the one mentioned above), could allow even novice players to play against similar opponents in a tournament environment.
Of course, all of these suggestions have their downsides, so I'll just leave them for discussion's sake.
This idea of ranking works when you play a game like chess, where the playing board is the same across all players. However, despite starcraft being chess applied to video games, there is too much variations for me to safely say that a ranking system will work. For example, how are you going to choose maps? Just have everyone play on FS? That's boring. And how would maps be determined for rankings? You would have to rotate maps every week for each position. Also, what about race matchups? For example, Team A's rank 4 might have the best vP matchup of team A and team B's top 2 players are P. but if Team B's rank 4 is Z, then you are not making the most out of P sniper's abilities, which would be sniping rank 1 and 2. Finally, what is stopping any team captain from fudging ranking system to get the favorable matchups on the maps? Are the rankings going to change every week, and are they internal or controlled by an external system?
Maybe try to establish a 6 Team Teamleague. But instead of every team plays every team once, do it twice. So the league will go 12 weeks (5+5 weeks regular season, 2 playoff weeks) and you will have more players on each team. Might go for a rule that you cannot use more than 3 people from the first encounter in the second encounter to ensure many players get a chance to play.
On July 24 2013 06:00 L_Master wrote: I will note that I am seriously considering a much stricter rule on those of us, including myself, that can probably hit C-. We have seen a dramatic drop off in true D's or D- players in this league...and I think that is in part because it has become more of a D+/C- league.
I have not made a decision yet, but there may be limited or zero eligibility for players that have hit C-/shown results consistent with being able to hit C-.
I think this is probably the biggest issue facing this season. On the one hand this is a D-Ranks league so we want d-level players having the chance to play each other in a fair competitive environment, but on the other hand a large core of the players who participated in previous seasons are clearly reaching the blur of d+/c- . As I see it we can either attempt something like Pebble suggested;
A nice thing i saw going on in the C ranks teamleague, and works well As far as i know, is to have 2 notable D+/C- players for each team. That raises the overall standard while keeping the base D.
I have another idea, tell me what you people think about it.
To implement, based on Birdie' s ranking system, that players who want to play in the week, play each other based on their ranking. The objective is to match people with actual same skill level. In other words, if a player is ranked #3 from on team, he will play the top #rank from the other team, and so on until the end.
As for maps, they could be organized the first week by having every top/ second/third/fourth/fifth/sixt rank maps decided, and then going down in a loop
Example #1 week Fs top, #2 week FS second, etc.
This idea is based around the swiss system of matching people to play
The downside is this would kinda break the sporting "lineups and i don' t know who i will be facing until LU are out" . With this system you are much more likely to know who is playing.
The upside is it would allow people to play more against a similar rank to theirs. Obviously Birdie would have to make an August D ranking system, like the one he did past september. I was studying that one and i could see similar players in similar spots.
On another note, i would really like ACE matches to be again
which has its own inherent problems, or we need to consider 3 other solutions: 1. Make two leagues; essentially the current one, and then something like a newcomers league for E to say D (1500) level players, although this is an inelegant solution and the question would be if we could find enough participants to populate the lower league. 2. Limit the amount of matches any player can play, say 2 every 4weeks (basically forcing a team to use its entire roster, has many other inherent problems) in order to let weaker players participate more. 3. Require everyone who wants to play this season to play 30-40 ladder games to get a better judgment of current skill levels. (how reliable is laddering, will this just drive off players who don't have the motivation or time to ladder this much)
On a completely different note, I'd seriously like you to reconsider the following two maps in the map pool; 815 III - This was an interesting map for Progamers, but it's really going to be frustrating in the extreme for lower level players because no normal builds work on this map. While I know we like to encourage cool cheeses and varied play, I just think this map will produce shit games at our level. Pamir Plateu - has serious positional imbalances in terms of walling and especially natural gas placement, unless these are fixed I think this map should ideally be replaced (it's not that special of a map otherwise)
Just my oppinion(Which might be a bit bias,due to me being one of the players concerned): Kicking (or lowering the numbers) of the High D+/Low C- players,will lower the player base of the league ALOT. If kicking happens,just by memory you kick:Me/Arca/Icedraco/Prophecy(he says he is D,but probably could hold C-),Birdie(bad but hit C-),DNH(High D+ at least),RedAxis(15-3 high D+ last season,nuff said),Yourself,Kaigreene(has hit C-(and i think C as well on his old account [ UED_ReZuya] ),Click(haven't played her in a long time,but people say she's good),RulZbooom(asuming he wants to play,not sure) and many more im forgetting.Replacing them with low level players is hard,because many of them lack the dedication and will not show regulary.Most of the players from the level you want to get in( D-/D) probably don't use TL either.
Thanks for the discussion guys, that is exactly what I am looking for both to see general opinion and to hear some of the thoughts surrounding the issues and get exposed to the various possibilities I haven't though of.
On a completely different note, I'd seriously like you to reconsider the following two maps in the map pool; 815 III - This was an interesting map for Progamers, but it's really going to be frustrating in the extreme for lower level players because no normal builds work on this map. While I know we like to encourage cool cheeses and varied play, I just think this map will produce shit games at our level. Pamir Plateu - has serious positional imbalances in terms of walling and especially natural gas placement, unless these are fixed I think this map should ideally be replaced (it's not that special of a map otherwise)
On 815 - Probably it will start in the map pool, but I very well might cycle it out after a third or half of the season for more variety or if games are complete garbage or something. That said, I don't believe it is THAT hard to do come up with a different build, especially if you take 10 minutes to watch a SOSPA game or two. Yes, it's a bit much for the D-/D type guys...but they wouldn't need to be sent out on a map like this.
On Pamir - I thought those were removed with the updates version (especially whacked out nat gases). If not, then yea I will definitely scrap Pamir and replace it with something else.
Honestly, I think the biggest issue atm with trying to have a league that D-/D guys are capable of playing in without getting 100% smashed is that there simply isn't enough player traffic. D-/D guys are either scared off atm, or just aren't active on TL. Which is why the format will probably be only lightly changed, if at all, in the end.
If every team had 5+ D-/D guys it would be alot more realistic.
Basically everyone on TAKK can hit c-, including Stardom and I. If we do stricter standards there goes basically an entire team! On a unrelated note, Stardom is going to be playing zerg from now on afaik.
edit: Really like that 815 is in the map pool. Variety in map style is always good.
On July 25 2013 04:28 rauk wrote: Why not just call it the c- league and organize a smaller league for real d/d-s
I'm actually considering this as well.
Basically, the problem to me is that this is supposed to be a D Ranks league, and in reality its a heavily yellow "capable" league. Which isn't the end of the world by itself...but when it gets to the point that almost no D-/D players can signup, or get fielded...we have a problem.
EDIT: The other thing I am thinking about is a true D league (D+ MAX rank), and then a yellow league (C-/C), with some form of integration. I.e. Courage, SB both have yellow teams already, and TAKK could be a yellow team. So each teamh as a "yellow" and "red" team., but sharing same skype or w/e for communication practice. The leagues would be seperate, but could possibly culminate in some sort of Grand Final where its 3 reds/3 yellows + ace from the combined team, to encourage C-/C guys to not just totally ignore newer players (some think that is a concern)
EDIT2: As to the question of "why change something that has worked fine in the past", my thoughts are this:
A) The league isn't doing what it was intended to do. There are a VERY small number of D players, and almost no D-, and when S1 happened it was at least 50% players D-/D. The bottom line is it has reached the point where if those players show up they get blown out of the water or often cant even get fielded because there are too many other strong players. This to me IS a problem. B) The league is stagnating a bit and growing smaller each season, which isn't ideal.
On July 24 2013 06:00 L_Master wrote: I will note that I am seriously considering a much stricter rule on those of us, including myself, that can probably hit C-. We have seen a dramatic drop off in true D's or D- players in this league...and I think that is in part because it has become more of a D+/C- league.
I have not made a decision yet, but there may be limited or zero eligibility for players that have hit C-/shown results consistent with being able to hit C-.
It's true that the overall skill has risen, but it's hard to tell if someone have actually passed the strong D+ mark yet. I believe that if you can climb to C- fairly steadily, and reach C in a reasonable amount of games, you shouldn't be playing here. I don't know anyone who actually would fall in this category though, by recent results atleast. I think it's pretty obvious who the strongest players in the league are, but these players are so close in skill that it's hard to say that some of them are too good, if you at the same time say that some of them are ok. That's the big issue here. If you mention player A, you might as well mention player B, and then player C, and then you end up with a list of 20 players, where there's a distinct difference in skill between the top and bottom player, but no distinct border inbetween. I think max rank C- is a good border, ie if you hit C you're out, but some ppl might want to put the border lower than that. There's also the issue of most players not laddering enough to gauge their max rank.
This page gives a better estimation of the rank, as it also considers prior seasons on iccup, and I believe it also estimates the rank of your opponent. It's only been around for the past 2-3 seasons so it's definately lacking info for many players.
Here's the top 20~ ranked players, out of the player pool from DRTL4. I also added L3gendary for reference. The more games, the more accurate it is. + Show Spoiler [D ranks iccup ranking] +
It's nice to see that Rauk (who have left the league) is the only player on the wrong side of L3gendary. There's a lack of games for most of the players up there though, so a few of the players might pass him if you add 50 games to their list.
I think it would be interesting to gauge the size of the group of D rank players who have previously chosen not to participate because of the skill levels. I know that there are players like that, because I've seen this being brought up before. I just don't know how many they are. If there's plenty of them, I think having a stricter rank policy would be justified.
i dont understand, lower the rating the higher chance of being over the league requirements? or the closer to L3gendary? if thats the case im quite shocked about myself truthfully :x
On July 25 2013 05:55 ImAtTheBeacH wrote: Can someone please elaborate how the ICCUP ranking works that ninini posted?
It uses TrueSkill. Basically, you're ranked into a level, with a higher level being better. Inside that level you have a u and an m, with the u being your "skill" and the m being the deviation, the amount it's unsure about your skill. +/- basically. Higher deviation means you've played fewer games so it's not sure about your true skill, and is estimating. The more games you win, vs the better players, the higher level you'll be in.
On July 25 2013 05:55 ImAtTheBeacH wrote: Can someone please elaborate how the ICCUP ranking works that ninini posted?
First number is total number of games played, 2nd is some kind of points, maybe an average of whoever you've playeds rankings etc etc. L3gendary is what id assume as the only D rank player(besides rauk) to move up in leagues or step down whatever, and anyone over him would obviously be considered above the thresh hold, and the closer you are to him the closer you are to being borderline unable to play in the league
Basically what this says is that rauk, lmaster and mg.arb were the top 3 ranked players in DRTL4, if you're going by their laddering results on iccup. L3gendary is thrown in there as an example of a low C player. The first number is how many games they've laddered on iccup since this ranking was implemented, and ranking is how the program ranks the player compared to all players on iccup. Anyway, the less amount of games, the less accurate it is. It's much easier to rise fast on this ranking system, compared to the regular iccup system if you have a good run, but if you play maybe 70 games it should even out.
Basically what this says is that rauk, lmaster and mg.arb were the top 3 ranked players in DRTL4, if you're going by their laddering results on iccup. L3gendary is thrown in there as an example of a low C player. The first number is how many games they've laddered on iccup since this ranking was implemented, and ranking is how the program ranks the player compared to all players on iccup. Anyway, the less amount of games, the less accurate it is. It's much easier to rise fast on this ranking system, compared to the regular iccup system if you have a good run, but if you play maybe 70 games it should even out.
ladder hero, always lose in leagues np
I would like to sign up again though, i think this time as a free agent maybe.
Basically what this says is that rauk, lmaster and mg.arb were the top 3 ranked players in DRTL4, if you're going by their laddering results on iccup. L3gendary is thrown in there as an example of a low C player. The first number is how many games they've laddered on iccup since this ranking was implemented, and ranking is how the program ranks the player compared to all players on iccup. Anyway, the less amount of games, the less accurate it is. It's much easier to rise fast on this ranking system, compared to the regular iccup system if you have a good run, but if you play maybe 70 games it should even out.
Did not expect that, given my 12-9 record. Guess I played strong opponents.
Basically what this says is that rauk, lmaster and mg.arb were the top 3 ranked players in DRTL4, if you're going by their laddering results on iccup. L3gendary is thrown in there as an example of a low C player. The first number is how many games they've laddered on iccup since this ranking was implemented, and ranking is how the program ranks the player compared to all players on iccup. Anyway, the less amount of games, the less accurate it is. It's much easier to rise fast on this ranking system, compared to the regular iccup system if you have a good run, but if you play maybe 70 games it should even out.
ladder hero, always lose in leagues np
I would like to sign up again though, i think this time as a free agent maybe.
We could always use another strong Terran. arb to TAKK?
On July 24 2013 18:51 pebble444 wrote: I have another idea, tell me what you people think about it.
To implement, based on Birdie' s ranking system, that players who want to play in the week, play each other based on their ranking. The objective is to match people with actual same skill level. In other words, if a player is ranked #3 from on team, he will play the top #rank from the other team, and so on until the end.
As for maps, they could be organized the first week by having every top/ second/third/fourth/fifth/sixt rank maps decided, and then going down in a loop
Example #1 week Fs top, #2 week FS second, etc.
This idea is based around the swiss system of matching people to play
The downside is this would kinda break the sporting "lineups and i don' t know who i will be facing until LU are out" . With this system you are much more likely to know who is playing.
The upside is it would allow people to play more against a similar rank to theirs. Obviously Birdie would have to make an August D ranking system, like the one he did past september. I was studying that one and i could see similar players in similar spots.
On another note, i would really like ACE matches to be again
Sorry, I think this is a terrible idea. Having people play each other based on rank within teams is silly.
And you people want 815 in the map pool? Are you people serious, or crazy?
Courage does not have enough people to make a team of "Red Ds" or however you want to call it. We would struggle to to get a full team of "yellow Ds" as well.
On July 24 2013 18:51 pebble444 wrote: I have another idea, tell me what you people think about it.
To implement, based on Birdie' s ranking system, that players who want to play in the week, play each other based on their ranking. The objective is to match people with actual same skill level. In other words, if a player is ranked #3 from on team, he will play the top #rank from the other team, and so on until the end.
As for maps, they could be organized the first week by having every top/ second/third/fourth/fifth/sixt rank maps decided, and then going down in a loop
Example #1 week Fs top, #2 week FS second, etc.
This idea is based around the swiss system of matching people to play
The downside is this would kinda break the sporting "lineups and i don' t know who i will be facing until LU are out" . With this system you are much more likely to know who is playing.
The upside is it would allow people to play more against a similar rank to theirs. Obviously Birdie would have to make an August D ranking system, like the one he did past september. I was studying that one and i could see similar players in similar spots.
On another note, i would really like ACE matches to be again
Sorry, I think this is a terrible idea. Having people play each other based on rank within teams is silly.
And you people want 815 in the map pool? Are you people serious, or crazy?
Courage does not have enough people to make a team of "Red Ds" or however you want to call it. We would struggle to to get a full team of "yellow Ds" as well.
On July 25 2013 06:57 Sentenal wrote: Yeah lets put other maps like Troy and Plasma in too. Or maybe that one map with all the Dwebs on the map.
I prefer the idea of tracking maps roughly with what SOSPA is doing. Especially when there exist a plethora of modern VODs of games on the map it's not that unreasonable to do, and not something that would require weeks of practice. It's also a single map.
If people were that busy and unable to learn a new map a team could specialize with one player putting in some extra time on said map.
We would struggle to to get a full team of "yellow Ds" as well.
Courage fielded a team in the last C league no? I guess it was called School of Wala, but wasn't that heavily composed of courage players? Add in free agents and you easily have a yellow team.
Finding other C players is not a problem at all. There are lots of free agent players that are C-/C.
Courage does not have enough people to make a team of "Red Ds" or however you want to call it.
THIS is the issue. Are there enough free agents that are D-/D/D+ that would come out of the woodwork to play. I think most teams have between 2-4 D/D+ players, so if we wanted 6 teams we would probably need 20, maybe 30 sign-ups from D rank players.
That happened at one time, but I'm not so sure it will happen now.
School of Wala and Courage aren't really the same team. If Courage got merged with them, we would basically get like... 2 new members, both of whom are Bish. Also, with the way our team works, "free agents" probably wouldn't ever play (nor would we even want them), since Courage is made up entirely of people within a sub-community of TeamLiquid.
Anyway, I think its a bad idea to put retarded POS maps into the pool for no reason other than "they are different". If you want to put 815, have fun, but know that its going to be the map that no one ever wants to play.
The only Courage player who played more than 3 games for School of Wala was me. Both Courage and School of Wala will probably never return because players are leaving in droves for other games such as Dota2 and CS:GO. The only active player in our channel anymore is Fold.
On July 25 2013 07:20 Sentenal wrote: School of Wala and Courage aren't really the same team. Courage got merged with them, we would basically get like... 2 new members, both of whom are Bish. Also, with the way our team works, "free agents" probably wouldn't ever play (nor would we even want them), since Courage is made up entirely of people within a sub-community of TeamLiquid.
Anyway, I think its a bad idea to put retarded POS maps into the pool for no reason other than "they are different". If you want to put 815, have fun, but know that its going to be the map that no one ever wants to play.
Okay, I didn't realize this. Thanks for the info.
As far as maps, the reason for 815 is not because it is different, but rather, because it is what the current "pro" scene is using. As mentioned earlier if it turns out everyone despises 815 and all the games are garbage, then the map would likely be removed after 2-3 weeks.
On July 25 2013 07:22 EchOne wrote: The only Courage player who played more than 3 games for School of Wala was me. Both Courage and School of Wala will probably never return because players are leaving in droves for other games such as Dota2 and CS:GO. The only active player in our channel anymore is Fold.
i thought the second number is just the rank out of the total players, ie i'm rank 1096 out of 18,000 players? my actual "rating" is 27, or 33.968 ± 6.904, the second number being the confidence + Show Spoiler +
so it looks like the best iccup players of last season are around 22.. you could say that the hard limit is a rating of 20 with at least 40 games played or until the confidence is under ± 7 or something
On July 25 2013 08:18 rauk wrote: i thought the second number is just the rank out of the total players, ie i'm rank 1096 out of 18,000 players? my actual "rating" is 27, or 33.968 ± 6.904, the second number being the confidence + Show Spoiler +
so it looks like the best iccup players of last season are around 22.. you could say that the hard limit is a rating of 20 with at least 40 games played or until the confidence is under ± 7 or something
25
35.573 ± 10.372 1606 27 ][-][ero P C− 25-2 unknown
I guess that's why you and BaBo should not be paying DR anymore xD
And for the sake of organisation please keep a list of all iccup and/or TL nicks for the players in the OP. This is because some people have different nicks everywhere and it’s hard to distinguish between all those unknown nicks. This list doesn’t need to be complete (some guys don’t have a TL account) but it would be nice to have at least some help distinguishing the players. At least for me (was I the only one who didn’t know most players last season?)
I’m back on DeSPA! For reference: ICCUP & TL nicks: Biolunar Rank: D (still haven’t played a ladder match in my bw career :D) Race: Terran
On July 26 2013 01:01 Psyonic_Reaver wrote: Bring back Andromeda or Medusa. =]
Or Electric Circuit!!!
I wouldn't mind if any of those replaced Pamir or FS...
Although I'm on the same boat with never ever wanting to play FS for the rest of my life, the general consensus is that FS is a necessity in all leagues, from D-ranks to TLS, so I doubt it'll be replaced with anything. As for replacing Pamir/815, Lmaster is up for suggestion/discussion, and if it makes you all feel better, the map lineup isn't set in stone.
But the all-kill league and it's wonderful concept of setting players up to snipe opposing players, and the clashes of aces to avoid losing...
Proving my point, games in DRATL had games that featured the best of the best playing each other out on a weekly basis, whereas DRTL 4 had games where there would be many mismatches, and really, no sense of suspense as every game was almost always played all at once.
prophecy vs BaBo CityShuffle vs icedraco Hyeon vs CityShuffle Kai vs prophecy Kai vs SniperTerran Sentenal vs TheMarine Obelsico vs Artanis Kai vs TheMarine Hyeon vs SniperTerran Ali.G vs BaBo Click vs BaBo Artanis vs TheMarine Artanis vs icedraco CityShuffle vs Ali.G CityShuffle vs Sentenal prophecy vs Ali.G
Kai vs icedraco prophecy vs ImAtTheBeach Kai vs Sentenal BaBo vs DNH TheMarine vs Sentenal Click vs ImAtTheBeach Kai vs BaBo rauk vs TheMarine arb vs Sentenal Click vs CityShuffle
Also, DRATL had less walkovers than DRTL, even if the NW Power fiasco is excluded... MAYBE I HAS BRING UP GOOD TOPIC?
On July 26 2013 13:56 SynC[gm] wrote: But the all-kill league and it's wonderful concept of setting players up to snipe opposing players, and the clashes of aces to avoid losing...
Proving my point, games in DRATL had games that featured the best of the best playing each other out on a weekly basis, whereas DRTL 4 had games where there would be many mismatches, and really, no sense of suspense as every game was almost always played all at once.
prophecy vs BaBo CityShuffle vs icedraco Hyeon vs CityShuffle Kai vs prophecy Kai vs SniperTerran Sentenal vs TheMarine Obelsico vs Artanis Kai vs TheMarine Hyeon vs SniperTerran Ali.G vs BaBo Click vs BaBo Artanis vs TheMarine Artanis vs icedraco CityShuffle vs Ali.G CityShuffle vs Sentenal prophecy vs Ali.G
Kai vs icedraco prophecy vs ImAtTheBeach Kai vs Sentenal BaBo vs DNH TheMarine vs Sentenal Click vs ImAtTheBeach Kai vs BaBo rauk vs TheMarine arb vs Sentenal Click vs CityShuffle
Also, DRATL had less walkovers than DRTL, even if the NW Power fiasco is excluded... MAYBE I HAS BRING UP GOOD TOPIC?
I am still beyond salty about that game vs sent. -_-.
im fairly sure most all of my games in the last drtl were cheeses in some way. D:
On July 26 2013 13:56 SynC[gm] wrote: But the all-kill league and it's wonderful concept of setting players up to snipe opposing players, and the clashes of aces to avoid losing...
Proving my point, games in DRATL had games that featured the best of the best playing each other out on a weekly basis, whereas DRTL 4 had games where there would be many mismatches, and really, no sense of suspense as every game was almost always played all at once.
prophecy vs BaBo CityShuffle vs icedraco Hyeon vs CityShuffle Kai vs prophecy Kai vs SniperTerran Sentenal vs TheMarine Obelsico vs Artanis Kai vs TheMarine Hyeon vs SniperTerran Ali.G vs BaBo Click vs BaBo Artanis vs TheMarine Artanis vs icedraco CityShuffle vs Ali.G CityShuffle vs Sentenal prophecy vs Ali.G
Kai vs icedraco prophecy vs ImAtTheBeach Kai vs Sentenal BaBo vs DNH TheMarine vs Sentenal Click vs ImAtTheBeach Kai vs BaBo rauk vs TheMarine arb vs Sentenal Click vs CityShuffle
Also, DRATL had less walkovers than DRTL, even if the NW Power fiasco is excluded... MAYBE I HAS BRING UP GOOD TOPIC?
To counter your point it's not about the best players beating each other, but just playing. I am all for a separate DRATL, but the time constraint of having all those games played out within a few hours is about the team that shows up. I truely do like the luxury of rescheduling your games without having to worry about playing it all on the same day.
On July 26 2013 13:56 SynC[gm] wrote: But the all-kill league and it's wonderful concept of setting players up to snipe opposing players, and the clashes of aces to avoid losing...
Proving my point, games in DRATL had games that featured the best of the best playing each other out on a weekly basis, whereas DRTL 4 had games where there would be many mismatches, and really, no sense of suspense as every game was almost always played all at once.
prophecy vs BaBo CityShuffle vs icedraco Hyeon vs CityShuffle Kai vs prophecy Kai vs SniperTerran Sentenal vs TheMarine Obelsico vs Artanis Kai vs TheMarine Hyeon vs SniperTerran Ali.G vs BaBo Click vs BaBo Artanis vs TheMarine Artanis vs icedraco CityShuffle vs Ali.G CityShuffle vs Sentenal prophecy vs Ali.G
Kai vs icedraco prophecy vs ImAtTheBeach Kai vs Sentenal BaBo vs DNH TheMarine vs Sentenal Click vs ImAtTheBeach Kai vs BaBo rauk vs TheMarine arb vs Sentenal Click vs CityShuffle
Also, DRATL had less walkovers than DRTL, even if the NW Power fiasco is excluded... MAYBE I HAS BRING UP GOOD TOPIC?
I am still beyond salty about that game vs sent. -_-.
im fairly sure most all of my games in the last drtl were cheeses in some way. D:
Haha <3
Also, imo All-kill league isn't fair since Courage will just all kill everyone like 5 times again.
On July 26 2013 13:56 SynC[gm] wrote: But the all-kill league and it's wonderful concept of setting players up to snipe opposing players, and the clashes of aces to avoid losing...
Proving my point, games in DRATL had games that featured the best of the best playing each other out on a weekly basis, whereas DRTL 4 had games where there would be many mismatches, and really, no sense of suspense as every game was almost always played all at once.
prophecy vs BaBo CityShuffle vs icedraco Hyeon vs CityShuffle Kai vs prophecy Kai vs SniperTerran Sentenal vs TheMarine Obelsico vs Artanis Kai vs TheMarine Hyeon vs SniperTerran Ali.G vs BaBo Click vs BaBo Artanis vs TheMarine Artanis vs icedraco CityShuffle vs Ali.G CityShuffle vs Sentenal prophecy vs Ali.G
Kai vs icedraco prophecy vs ImAtTheBeach Kai vs Sentenal BaBo vs DNH TheMarine vs Sentenal Click vs ImAtTheBeach Kai vs BaBo rauk vs TheMarine arb vs Sentenal Click vs CityShuffle
Also, DRATL had less walkovers than DRTL, even if the NW Power fiasco is excluded... MAYBE I HAS BRING UP GOOD TOPIC?
To counter your point it's not about the best players beating each other, but just playing. I am all for a separate DRATL, but the time constraint of having all those games played out within a few hours is about the team that shows up. I truely do like the luxury of rescheduling your games without having to worry about playing it all on the same day.
Well, save for the time period that needs to be put aside just to play the games, if anything, it's easier on the number of players that need to show up per team for an all-kill league. For a proleague format, a team needs at least 5 players to play/show up. For DRATL, AT MOST, 4 players are needed, since there is the possibility of one player all-killing from set 1 to set 4.
As to Courage all-killing everyone... Despite the 4 all-kills, you guys were all-killed once yourself and beaten in the finals, so it's not like you folks are unbeatable :D
As one of the weakest players in the league, I don't think there's any solution if we don't manage to get a flux of D players. Even if they benefit me, I don't like the ideas that of a league that will put equal ranks against each other or having a "red team" and a "yellow team" because I think predicting opponent lineups and sniping players is a key part of a teamleague and separating red and yellow really hurts the fun of potential upsets. I probably like the idea of limiting amount of games strong players can play but then it's a question of what constitutes a strong player. You could just base that off previous results and group the players with the most domination historically, but there is still a large population that "can hit C- but aren't the strongest" who are all still strong enough to crush a legit D/D- player 100% of the time. Or at the very least, that's how it feels as a weak player and thus, it doesn't really help the problem of getting new, true D-rank players. I think any changes without securing new players will just prove to be annoying.
One other thing to keep in mind is any potential changes need to account for roster sizes. For example, you could say teams must field 2 "red" players. Okay, but if a team only has 3 red players and 2 can't play that week, well that sucks. Or you could limit games "strong" players can play but if a team has a small roster, it can be quite hurtful. Maybe this means only have 6 teams, but then there's an issue of everyone only playing ~2-3 games the entire season which hurts motivation. Just saying changing rules for the sake of weaker players has other effects that might not be apparent at the time, so be careful.
Also, rescheduling and w/o consistently stirs up drama every now and then. I think enforcing stricter pp rules (for example, only 2 players per week can request pp or games must be played no later than the following Thursday) is a good idea. This is because teams often don't account for whether players can play at game time. Drama aside, this has caused delays in results, and last DRTL playoffs took 2 weeks per round in addition to them being delayed to get in the final regular season results due to the very close rankings. Furthermore, this means teams have the option of always fielding their strongest members. Therefore, stricter pp rules would indirectly cause a decrease in the amount of games the strongest players play as well as the actual occasional need to rely on weaker players to fill in at game time.
Worth noting that Stealth Bunnies is going to be more than half new/weak players this season, we've lost a few decent players and gained some not so good but improving ones. Not a problem for me, and if the other teams operate the same then we'll have plenty of D D- and D+ level action going on each week. It'd be possible for me to only recruit D+ players if I really wanted that but that doesn't foster growth among the lower ranks, which is basically what this league is for. If the low level players get to play at least half of the weeks in the league then they're motivated to improve and keep playing BW, and soon they'll go from D- to D to D+ because of that like I did. Now I'm on the verge of being too good for the league, and the league is what motivated me to do that.
So basically, to the other teams, recruit and send out the D- and D players too, don't just aim to win (although do that too! )
On July 27 2013 07:05 MissClickkii wrote: Can you change my race to protoss for this season? Thanks!
wat? why change to protoss?
The dark side of the world intrigues her so. At least we still have each other.
Edit: And to point out that TAKK is active in recruiting, TAKK recently recruited two new players that are totally new to the competitive side of BW.
As for motivation to getting better, everyone is motivated differently. Some people could be motivated to get better by not being fielded because they're not seen as strong enough, whereas some people are motivated by continuously getting fielded thinking that they're a necessary part of the team.
And to answer Kaze's post, unfortunately, from what I've seen being here from DRATL to now, historically, new players, that are actually D-/D that sign up as a free agent for the teamleagues and are placed into the team that are composed of nothing but free agents are rarely motivated to stay. Instance in DRATL, I was part of Team Freedom, and I believe, around Week 3, none of the players were motivated enough to actually play their games to the point where I was the only player for the team, and me losing or winning would basically decide whether we won or not. DRTL4, I believe the example will be made in Phoenix, where most of their players were primarily made of free agents.
I dunno how it was before I joined the D-ranks leagues, but from what I can see, the people that were like me at one point are having a hard time getting integrated into the community and staying. I guess the best thing to do is find a solution as to why that is. Maybe there aren't enough people helping out? Maybe I'm rude and I'm scaring away everyone? Maybe they come in with the expectation that ALL of us are D-/D but are discouraged to play anymore when they lose to a D+/C- player? Before we can get an influx or folks, we need to find a way to actually keep the newer players a reason to stay.
Signing up as a free agent. Was too late for DRIT 6, definitely don't want to miss out on this.
Rank: D+ ICCUP account: omoy Race: T
My current rank is D+, but don't let it fool you as my play is inconsistent - I personally feel that my true rank is low-mid D at best .
Not sure if this is relevant, but I think it plays a part in getting new players to stay motivated.
In my experiences of joining "clans" way back, I felt distanced from certain players despite my efforts to get "closer" to them. People had formed their own groups within said clan, and in most cases they weren't too welcoming of newer members. I feel that the way to keeping new players motivated lies with the "veterans" of said team. If the vets are content with their own circle of mates and are not really interested in the new player...well, you can't blame the new player for disappearing.
To put it simply, its up to the existing members to remove the "glass wall" between then and newer players.
On July 27 2013 17:51 lightson wrote: Signing up as a free agent. Was too late for DRIT 6, definitely don't want to miss out on this.
Rank: D+ ICCUP account: omoy Race: T
My current rank is D+, but don't let it fool you as my play is inconsistent - I personally feel that my true rank is low-mid D at best .
Not sure if this is relevant, but I think it plays a part in getting new players to stay motivated.
In my experiences of joining "clans" way back, I felt distanced from certain players despite my efforts to get "closer" to them. People had formed their own groups within said clan, and in most cases they weren't too welcoming of newer members. I feel that the way to keeping new players motivated lies with the "veterans" of said team. If the vets are content with their own circle of mates and are not really interested in the new player...well, you can't blame the new player for disappearing.
To put it simply, its up to the existing members to remove the "glass wall" between then and newer players.
This is a team thing more than a league thing though; I've had experienced running clans before and it's really hard to get new people integrated with the existing people, unless the existing people are outgoing and friendly enough, or if the team captain is good at basically teaching both the oldies and the newbies to be friends xD
On July 27 2013 17:51 lightson wrote: Signing up as a free agent. Was too late for DRIT 6, definitely don't want to miss out on this.
Rank: D+ ICCUP account: omoy Race: T
My current rank is D+, but don't let it fool you as my play is inconsistent - I personally feel that my true rank is low-mid D at best .
Not sure if this is relevant, but I think it plays a part in getting new players to stay motivated.
In my experiences of joining "clans" way back, I felt distanced from certain players despite my efforts to get "closer" to them. People had formed their own groups within said clan, and in most cases they weren't too welcoming of newer members. I feel that the way to keeping new players motivated lies with the "veterans" of said team. If the vets are content with their own circle of mates and are not really interested in the new player...well, you can't blame the new player for disappearing.
To put it simply, its up to the existing members to remove the "glass wall" between then and newer players.
Sun Khan is the team for you then. :D . Join us. We have cookies we like terran and need people like you on our rooster.
I have read all and really don' t have any more inputs. There must be a reasnable/logic/practical/good "reform" , i just don' t really know. all i can say is my opinion please re-institute Ace matches, when i was on DeSPA we had this and it was very important in making a team and discussing who would go out. Also it was so much fun!
For all the people who are afraid/doubt of signing up for rank/skill reasons:
This league is built for you. Thats the main core idea, the hearth of how this league was born. Back in season 2, i had a lot of doubts in joining in, as i thought i wasn' t good enough. I could hardly beat the computer, and just was too insicure of myself. However i gave it a shot, best thing i ever did in starcraft. I meet new people, a great team and team mates, and they really helped me in improving, dedicating me time and advice, training me, not judging me but helping me understand my mystakes. Even if obviously it is not said you will have this experience, most people on here are willing to dedicate time and words to help where is needed. The only thing they ask in return is willing to commit some time and dedication to da Broodwar. This one of the reasons why i like this community.
Give it a shot. Hit that post button. Its up to you how far you go, if you don' t try you' ll never know. Nothing ventured nothing gained.
Motivational video: (the sword in the stone) Don' t mind the frog. Hes just a troll.
On July 27 2013 07:05 MissClickkii wrote: Can you change my race to protoss for this season? Thanks!
wat? why change to protoss?
ez mode.
I like how noone questions it when a zerg or protoss switches race to whatever, but when a terran switches, all the other terrans feels betrayed.
On July 27 2013 13:40 Birdie wrote: So basically, to the other teams, recruit and send out the D- and D players too, don't just aim to win (although do that too! )
Seriously, if there's anyone who doesn't get to play much, for the reason of not being good enough, they should just switch teams, or maybe discuss it with their captain. We all sign up to play, and it's a skill-capped league. Skill shouldn't matter. I don't mind that teams top their lineups in the playoffs, but in the regular season, making sure that everybody gets the play time we all deserve should be the top priority.
On July 27 2013 17:51 lightson wrote: Signing up as a free agent. Was too late for DRIT 6, definitely don't want to miss out on this.
Rank: D+ ICCUP account: omoy Race: T
My current rank is D+, but don't let it fool you as my play is inconsistent - I personally feel that my true rank is low-mid D at best .
Not sure if this is relevant, but I think it plays a part in getting new players to stay motivated.
In my experiences of joining "clans" way back, I felt distanced from certain players despite my efforts to get "closer" to them. People had formed their own groups within said clan, and in most cases they weren't too welcoming of newer members. I feel that the way to keeping new players motivated lies with the "veterans" of said team. If the vets are content with their own circle of mates and are not really interested in the new player...well, you can't blame the new player for disappearing.
To put it simply, its up to the existing members to remove the "glass wall" between then and newer players.
Sun Khan is the team for you then. :D . Join us. We have cookies we like terran and need people like you on our rooster.
I have read all and really don' t have any more inputs. There must be a reasnable/logic/practical/good "reform" , i just don' t really know. all i can say is my opinion please re-institute Ace matches, when i was on DeSPA we had this and it was very important in making a team and discussing who would go out. Also it was so much fun!
I think two aspects are important for the integration of new people.
A good practice environment with lots of intra-team communication, and a chance to show their improvement in matches. I think DeSPA, but also other teams did a good job of fielding anyone who wanted to play and letting them have the experience of being in the deciding games. However I do think the league suffered a bit from some teams being less organized than others or unwilling to field weaker players in the last season.
For the record though, are these 6 teams returning to this league? So Courage TAKK DeSPA Sun Khan Stealth Bunnies Airforce Ace of Spades
I would strongly suggest against making any new teams out of free agents, but rather integrate everyone into existing teams. DeSPA could definitely use some more players and I'm sure a few of the others might as well.
On July 27 2013 23:46 DarkNetHunter wrote: I think two aspects are important for the integration of new people.
A good practice environment with lots of intra-team communication, and a chance to show their improvement in matches. I think DeSPA, but also other teams did a good job of fielding anyone who wanted to play and letting them have the experience of being in the deciding games. However I do think the league suffered a bit from some teams being less organized than others or unwilling to field weaker players in the last season.
For the record though, are these 6 teams returning to this league? So Courage TAKK DeSPA Sun Khan Stealth Bunnies Airforce Ace of Spades
I would strongly suggest against making any new teams out of free agents, but rather integrate everyone into existing teams. DeSPA could definitely use some more players and I'm sure a few of the others might as well.
Technically, Courage and Stealth Bunnies have yet to announce that they would be participating in DRTL 5. o.o
But yes, I do agree in not making another team out of mostly free agents. If a team wants to join in, for their own good, I suggest that they need at least 5 original players to start out as a team.
On July 27 2013 23:46 DarkNetHunter wrote: I think two aspects are important for the integration of new people.
A good practice environment with lots of intra-team communication, and a chance to show their improvement in matches. I think DeSPA, but also other teams did a good job of fielding anyone who wanted to play and letting them have the experience of being in the deciding games. However I do think the league suffered a bit from some teams being less organized than others or unwilling to field weaker players in the last season.
For the record though, are these 6 teams returning to this league? So Courage TAKK DeSPA Sun Khan Stealth Bunnies Airforce Ace of Spades
I would strongly suggest against making any new teams out of free agents, but rather integrate everyone into existing teams. DeSPA could definitely use some more players and I'm sure a few of the others might as well.
I think one thing teams need to start doing in order to retain players is to begin to organize some practice with one another, in a systematic sense. Or maybe thats already done, I dont know-- I havent played anyone on my team at all, and the lack of consistent practice partners really is a bitch, especially now a days on icc with the population dwindling.
On July 28 2013 04:13 Dazed_Spy wrote: I think one thing teams need to start doing in order to retain players is to begin to organize some practice with one another, in a systematic sense. Or maybe thats already done, I dont know-- I havent played anyone on my team at all, and the lack of consistent practice partners really is a bitch, especially now a days on icc with the population dwindling.
On July 28 2013 04:13 Dazed_Spy wrote: I think one thing teams need to start doing in order to retain players is to begin to organize some practice with one another, in a systematic sense. Or maybe thats already done, I dont know-- I havent played anyone on my team at all, and the lack of consistent practice partners really is a bitch, especially now a days on icc with the population dwindling.
Are you in the skype group? Most of us are usually around for some games...especially a zerg such as yourself!
On July 28 2013 04:13 Dazed_Spy wrote: I think one thing teams need to start doing in order to retain players is to begin to organize some practice with one another, in a systematic sense. Or maybe thats already done, I dont know-- I havent played anyone on my team at all, and the lack of consistent practice partners really is a bitch, especially now a days on icc with the population dwindling.
Are you in the skype group? Most of us are usually around for some games...especially a zerg such as yourself!
I cant use skype, it shuts my internet off and I cant find a damn way to fix it. [help?]
On July 27 2013 15:48 Ilikestarcraft wrote: I switched from t to z because I wanted to be able to beat protoss. I am able to beat p now.
Except it's much easier as Protoss to kill Zergs than it is Terrans.
You only say that cause your PVZ is well above the average of most players in D League.
Of course.
Basically, I just "get" PvZ way better than I do PvT. Well, I'm comfortable with PvT up till max, then it's just like "uhh...."
a click, when your army dies its k cuz you can remake it in like 5 seconds, continue to a click and use stasis until you win
Yea, well ya see...this might work if my army did anything, but the typical result of an attack on terran is me killing 8 vultures and a tank at a cost of 50+ supply. To add to the confusion every once in a while I attack and the terran army actually takes damage...but I can't even see what happens different. It's like 1a2a3a4a5a ttt and pray.
On July 28 2013 04:13 Dazed_Spy wrote: I think one thing teams need to start doing in order to retain players is to begin to organize some practice with one another, in a systematic sense. Or maybe thats already done, I dont know-- I havent played anyone on my team at all, and the lack of consistent practice partners really is a bitch, especially now a days on icc with the population dwindling.
Are you in the skype group? Most of us are usually around for some games...especially a zerg such as yourself!
I cant use skype, it shuts my internet off and I cant find a damn way to fix it. [help?]
o.O
I've never even heard of this occurring. That's really damn strange. Maybe post in tech support forum about that, as I wouldn't have a clue myself?
One thing we could do as a team though is have once or twice a week a dedicated time where anyone who is available will go op TAKK and do some practice/KOTH or w/e, which sorta gets around the skype issue and helps ensure some practice partners.
On July 28 2013 04:13 Dazed_Spy wrote: I think one thing teams need to start doing in order to retain players is to begin to organize some practice with one another, in a systematic sense. Or maybe thats already done, I dont know-- I havent played anyone on my team at all, and the lack of consistent practice partners really is a bitch, especially now a days on icc with the population dwindling.
Are you in the skype group? Most of us are usually around for some games...especially a zerg such as yourself!
I cant use skype, it shuts my internet off and I cant find a damn way to fix it. [help?]
o.O
I've never even heard of this occurring. That's really damn strange. Maybe post in tech support forum about that, as I wouldn't have a clue myself?
One thing we could do as a team though is have once or twice a week a dedicated time where anyone who is available will go op TAKK and do some practice/KOTH or w/e, which sorta gets around the skype issue and helps ensure some practice partners.
On July 27 2013 23:46 DarkNetHunter wrote: I think two aspects are important for the integration of new people.
A good practice environment with lots of intra-team communication, and a chance to show their improvement in matches. I think DeSPA, but also other teams did a good job of fielding anyone who wanted to play and letting them have the experience of being in the deciding games. However I do think the league suffered a bit from some teams being less organized than others or unwilling to field weaker players in the last season.
For the record though, are these 6 teams returning to this league? So Courage TAKK DeSPA Sun Khan Stealth Bunnies Airforce Ace of Spades
I would strongly suggest against making any new teams out of free agents, but rather integrate everyone into existing teams. DeSPA could definitely use some more players and I'm sure a few of the others might as well.
I approves.
Sun Khan only has 3 players. Me, pebble, and imatthebeach
sB has enough players, although I have a few people not confirmed. We should be entering again, I'll post our roster soonish. All very well saying that the free agents should go to those six teams but then there will be too many for a Bo5 as far as I can see. sB's already looking to have 8-10 players, which means that a few will sit out each week anyway.
I'm considering running two sB teams this year. I'd like people's opinions on this: Should I be required to run the two teams separately, or should I be allowed to run them as one roster but two different lineups each week?
Running two teams in the same league....? No matter what you say/claim, I think running two different teams in the same league is wayyyyyyyyyy to sketchy due to problems with Conflicts of Interests.
On July 28 2013 11:08 Sentenal wrote: Running two teams in the same league....? No matter what you say/claim, I think running two different teams in the same league is wayyyyyyyyyy to sketchy due to problems with Conflicts of Interests.
The other way I could do it is have two separate rosters, appoint a captain for each (whether one of those is myself or not) and have both under the same tag. That way I'm not responsible for managing the lineups for both so if the two teams are playing or there's potential to throw a match for the sake of getting one team into the playoffs, I can't really be able to do that.
On July 28 2013 11:08 Sentenal wrote: Running two teams in the same league....? No matter what you say/claim, I think running two different teams in the same league is wayyyyyyyyyy to sketchy due to problems with Conflicts of Interests.
The other way I could do it is have two separate rosters, appoint a captain for each (whether one of those is myself or not) and have both under the same tag. That way I'm not responsible for managing the lineups for both so if the two teams are playing or there's potential to throw a match for the sake of getting one team into the playoffs, I can't really be able to do that.
Technically, since both teams are under YOUR brand, you'll be held responsible for whatever happens, regardless of whether you actually meant for it to happen or not.
Lets say you captain a team called Stealth Bunnies A, and for the sake of example, you have Nikon run Stealth Bunnies B. We're excluding all personality traits or behaviors that were exhibited in the past by either captain. Lets say Stealth Bunnies A just needs a win to guarantee a playoff spot and Stealth Bunnies B was already eliminated. What would happen if Stealth Bunnies B were to think, "Oh, we're already out, lets give our other half a way to the playoffs. Why would it matter, all they need is a win and we're already out." Conflict of interest.
Now, whether that'll happen because of you, Birdie. But there's too many situations, and there would be suspicion amongst other teams that you're possibly cheating in some way, shape, or form by going through with two rosters. But ideally, I'd recommend just sticking with one roster and maybe petitioning for a Bo7 with 6 teams and a 12 week schedule with each team playing other teams 2 times each, or something to extend the lesser number of teams.
Technically, since both teams are under YOUR brand, you'll be held responsible for whatever happens, regardless of whether you actually meant for it to happen or not.
I'm fine for being responsible, but I'm saying I can make it as difficult as possible for there to be an easy conflict of interest such as what you described. I personally wouldn't allow any such behaviour in either team, but of course people in the league only have my word for that. Both teams should be playing to win no matter what, and every player too. Throwing matches is scummy behaviour and if I found anyone in any team doing that then I'd be quite happy to expose them to the public.
I dunno, maybe a better solution is bringing in a team with a lesser number of players into the fray and either have your 2nd pot of players go join their team, or have the team, like SunKhan, be a part of Stealth Bunnies V2. That way, unless another team signs up, possibly mSj or NW Power, we won't have to have 7 teams and/or make a team primarily of free agents.
On July 28 2013 11:31 SynC[gm] wrote: I dunno, maybe a better solution is bringing in a team with a lesser number of players into the fray and either have your 2nd pot of players go join their team, or have the team, like SunKhan, be a part of Stealth Bunnies V2. That way, unless another team signs up, possibly mSj or NW Power, we won't have to have 7 teams and/or make a team primarily of free agents.
Well, it'd be really awkward to ask a bunch of players to join sB and then say "uhh actually you're going to be playing for a different team". And same for SunKhan to join sB Blue. What I'm trying to do here with having two teams is having new players on a team with good organization that won't collapse mid season, which has happened pretty much every DRTL there's been. If we have sB Red, sB Blue, SunKhan, DeSPA, TAKK, ACE, Courage, then we only have one team that might possibly bomb out halfway through if an eighth team appears, as the other teams have a pretty good track record of at least two team leagues complete without collapse as far as I know.
And ideally a reputable person or someone with good organizational skills will step up and run that eighth team really well and we'll have the best season ever. If the other teams can manage to get enough players for a Bo7 for all 10-12 weeks of the season then we could do that too, I don't mind that too much this season, but Bo5 with 8 teams is probably a bit easier on each team involved.
I don't trust anyone in this league to run two different teams. Even if sB has two different "captains", they are still both sB. Sorry, I'd rather the league not take a risk on something like that, especially when cheating of the nature I'm concerned about can't even be proven.
On July 28 2013 11:42 Sentenal wrote: I don't trust anyone in this league to run two different teams. Even if sB has two different "captains", they are still both sB. Sorry, I'd rather the league not take a risk on something like that, especially when cheating of the nature I'm concerned about can't even be proven.
But it's not actually something that couldn't have already happened in previous leagues with separate teams. Having two sB teams (or any two teams under the same flag) just makes it slightly more likely, but for example I'm friends with people on other teams including some captains, so in previous seasons it could easily have happened before.
On July 28 2013 11:42 Sentenal wrote: I don't trust anyone in this league to run two different teams. Even if sB has two different "captains", they are still both sB. Sorry, I'd rather the league not take a risk on something like that, especially when cheating of the nature I'm concerned about can't even be proven.
But it's not actually something that couldn't have already happened in previous leagues with separate teams. Having two sB teams (or any two teams under the same flag) just makes it slightly more likely, but for example I'm friends with people on other teams including some captains, so in previous seasons it could easily have happened before.
This alone is the problem: it makes it more likely. I see no good reason to want two sB teams other than your single roster is too large; however, this is a result of your recruiting, so a large roster is a consequence of that.
On July 28 2013 11:42 Sentenal wrote: I don't trust anyone in this league to run two different teams. Even if sB has two different "captains", they are still both sB. Sorry, I'd rather the league not take a risk on something like that, especially when cheating of the nature I'm concerned about can't even be proven.
But it's not actually something that couldn't have already happened in previous leagues with separate teams. Having two sB teams (or any two teams under the same flag) just makes it slightly more likely, but for example I'm friends with people on other teams including some captains, so in previous seasons it could easily have happened before.
This alone is the problem: it makes it more likely. I see no good reason to want two sB teams other than your single roster is too large; however, this is a result of your recruiting, so a large roster is a consequence of that.
I do see where you're coming from, but I just don't see it happening. Of course, I'm somewhat biased
I would really like to have 8 well run teams, although changing to a 12 week season with 6 teams and Bo7 isn't a bad compromise. If tonight is serious about running a second Courage team then that's 8 teams with a good track record, which would be the best season yet I think assuming they all stick it out.
On July 28 2013 16:11 phamchienthang[V] wrote: I have a question before signing: every match must start at 11:00 MDT or can be reflexible because it's 11pm in Vietnam
Usually you can postpone matches if you arrange it with your opponent in time.
On July 28 2013 11:42 Sentenal wrote: I don't trust anyone in this league to run two different teams. Even if sB has two different "captains", they are still both sB. Sorry, I'd rather the league not take a risk on something like that, especially when cheating of the nature I'm concerned about can't even be proven.
But it's not actually something that couldn't have already happened in previous leagues with separate teams. Having two sB teams (or any two teams under the same flag) just makes it slightly more likely, but for example I'm friends with people on other teams including some captains, so in previous seasons it could easily have happened before.
This alone is the problem: it makes it more likely. I see no good reason to want two sB teams other than your single roster is too large; however, this is a result of your recruiting, so a large roster is a consequence of that.
I do see where you're coming from, but I just don't see it happening. Of course, I'm somewhat biased
I would really like to have 8 well run teams, although changing to a 12 week season with 6 teams and Bo7 isn't a bad compromise. If tonight is serious about running a second Courage team then that's 8 teams with a good track record, which would be the best season yet I think assuming they all stick it out.
Hes not serious. We might not even have enough for one. And ofc you are biased about yourself lol.
I don't see what the problem is with having two sB teams with two different rosters playing in the league. Just make them play eachother in the first or second week and you can be pretty sure that nobody would want to throw games so early and won't be able to do so later...
On July 28 2013 21:05 ggrrg wrote: I don't see what the problem is with having two sB teams with two different rosters playing in the league. Just make them play eachother in the first or second week and you can be pretty sure that nobody would want to throw games so early and won't be able to do so later...
It isn't nearly as simple as "who wins head to head" between them. Last season the top 3 teams were all 6-2, and the 4th and 5th place teams were 5-3. With standings that insanely close, it makes individual sets tons more important, since it actually matters if you win 5-0 rather than 3-2 or something.
On July 28 2013 21:05 ggrrg wrote: I don't see what the problem is with having two sB teams with two different rosters playing in the league. Just make them play eachother in the first or second week and you can be pretty sure that nobody would want to throw games so early and won't be able to do so later...
It isn't nearly as simple as "who wins head to head" between them. Last season the top 3 teams were all 6-2, and the 4th and 5th place teams were 5-3. With standings that insanely close, it makes individual sets tons more important, since it actually matters if you win 5-0 rather than 3-2 or something.
I still don't understand how there is any potential for throwing if the two teams play in the first two weeks. Or do you think they will intentionally go for a 3-2 score in week 1? Any rigged results in the beginning of the season are about as likely to end up screwing up both teams as they are to help them, especially if the season ends up being as close as it has been last time.
On July 28 2013 21:05 ggrrg wrote: I don't see what the problem is with having two sB teams with two different rosters playing in the league. Just make them play eachother in the first or second week and you can be pretty sure that nobody would want to throw games so early and won't be able to do so later...
It isn't nearly as simple as "who wins head to head" between them. Last season the top 3 teams were all 6-2, and the 4th and 5th place teams were 5-3. With standings that insanely close, it makes individual sets tons more important, since it actually matters if you win 5-0 rather than 3-2 or something.
I still don't understand how there is any potential for throwing if the two teams play in the first two weeks. Or do you think they will intentionally go for a 3-2 score in week 1? Any rigged results in the beginning of the season are about as likely to end up screwing up both teams as they are to help them, especially if the season ends up being as close as it has been last time.
As Sent said, it's not only about head to head. With 2 teams, you have more control over who else makes the playoffs. Throwing or even taking a 3-2 win instead of a 5-0 to control who makes the 4th spot can be done. Of course, nobody is saying they will do this, but the potential is there, and there will be unwanted suspicion if any curious results occur.
On July 28 2013 21:05 ggrrg wrote: I don't see what the problem is with having two sB teams with two different rosters playing in the league. Just make them play eachother in the first or second week and you can be pretty sure that nobody would want to throw games so early and won't be able to do so later...
It isn't nearly as simple as "who wins head to head" between them. Last season the top 3 teams were all 6-2, and the 4th and 5th place teams were 5-3. With standings that insanely close, it makes individual sets tons more important, since it actually matters if you win 5-0 rather than 3-2 or something.
I still don't understand how there is any potential for throwing if the two teams play in the first two weeks. Or do you think they will intentionally go for a 3-2 score in week 1? Any rigged results in the beginning of the season are about as likely to end up screwing up both teams as they are to help them, especially if the season ends up being as close as it has been last time.
As Sentenal mentioned, last season we essentially had 3 teams all vying for the last playoff spot in the last 1-2 weeks, complicated by postponements and such. The spot was essentially sealed by one team taking walkovers against a second team, the second team being unmotivated to play out the games since they were out of playoff contention.
If we enter a similar situation with 2 allied teams we can easily have, say, SB2 throwing a series against a playoff contender (let's say contender A) under the logic that SB1 will have an easier time against A than against contender B or C. This will easily put B and C out of contention, completely screwing over all their hard work up till that point.
On July 28 2013 21:05 ggrrg wrote: I don't see what the problem is with having two sB teams with two different rosters playing in the league. Just make them play eachother in the first or second week and you can be pretty sure that nobody would want to throw games so early and won't be able to do so later...
It isn't nearly as simple as "who wins head to head" between them. Last season the top 3 teams were all 6-2, and the 4th and 5th place teams were 5-3. With standings that insanely close, it makes individual sets tons more important, since it actually matters if you win 5-0 rather than 3-2 or something.
I still don't understand how there is any potential for throwing if the two teams play in the first two weeks. Or do you think they will intentionally go for a 3-2 score in week 1? Any rigged results in the beginning of the season are about as likely to end up screwing up both teams as they are to help them, especially if the season ends up being as close as it has been last time.
As Sent said, it's not only about head to head. With 2 teams, you have more control over who else makes the playoffs. Throwing or even taking a 3-2 win instead of a 5-0 to control who makes the 4th spot can be done. Of course, nobody is saying they will do this, but the potential is there, and there will be unwanted suspicion if any curious results occur.
But this would not benefit any of the sB teams! That's not a fair concern because every other team can potentially do the same. Also, there has to be a certain situation occuring at the end of the season in order for playoff manipulations to be possible at all. sB with 2 teams might be more likely to end up being able to control such a situation than a particular other team, but certainly not as likely as any of the other teams.
On July 28 2013 21:05 ggrrg wrote: I don't see what the problem is with having two sB teams with two different rosters playing in the league. Just make them play eachother in the first or second week and you can be pretty sure that nobody would want to throw games so early and won't be able to do so later...
It isn't nearly as simple as "who wins head to head" between them. Last season the top 3 teams were all 6-2, and the 4th and 5th place teams were 5-3. With standings that insanely close, it makes individual sets tons more important, since it actually matters if you win 5-0 rather than 3-2 or something.
I still don't understand how there is any potential for throwing if the two teams play in the first two weeks. Or do you think they will intentionally go for a 3-2 score in week 1? Any rigged results in the beginning of the season are about as likely to end up screwing up both teams as they are to help them, especially if the season ends up being as close as it has been last time.
As Sentenal mentioned, last season we essentially had 3 teams all vying for the last playoff spot in the last 1-2 weeks, complicated by postponements and such. The spot was essentially sealed by one team taking walkovers against a second team, the second team being unmotivated to play out the games since they were out of playoff contention.
If we enter a similar situation with 2 allied teams we can easily have, say, SB2 throwing a series against a playoff contender (let's say contender A) under the logic that SB1 will have an easier time against A than against contender B or C. This will easily put B and C out of contention, completely screwing over all their hard work up till that point.
Team X having secured their playoff spot, throws their final game against playoff conteder Y, because it thinks that it will have an easier time against them in the finals rather than against team Z or V. This will easily put Z and V out of contention, completely screwing over all their hard work up till that point.
On July 28 2013 21:05 ggrrg wrote: I don't see what the problem is with having two sB teams with two different rosters playing in the league. Just make them play eachother in the first or second week and you can be pretty sure that nobody would want to throw games so early and won't be able to do so later...
It isn't nearly as simple as "who wins head to head" between them. Last season the top 3 teams were all 6-2, and the 4th and 5th place teams were 5-3. With standings that insanely close, it makes individual sets tons more important, since it actually matters if you win 5-0 rather than 3-2 or something.
I still don't understand how there is any potential for throwing if the two teams play in the first two weeks. Or do you think they will intentionally go for a 3-2 score in week 1? Any rigged results in the beginning of the season are about as likely to end up screwing up both teams as they are to help them, especially if the season ends up being as close as it has been last time.
As Sent said, it's not only about head to head. With 2 teams, you have more control over who else makes the playoffs. Throwing or even taking a 3-2 win instead of a 5-0 to control who makes the 4th spot can be done. Of course, nobody is saying they will do this, but the potential is there, and there will be unwanted suspicion if any curious results occur.
But this would not benefit any of the sB teams! That's not a fair concern because every other team can potentially do the same. Also, there has to be a certain situation occuring at the end of the season in order for playoff manipulations to be possible at all. sB with 2 teams might be more likely to end up being able to control such a situation than a particular other team, but certainly not as likely as any of the other teams.
Well, you are wrong. If you can't get it even after several people try to explain it, not much more we can do.
On July 28 2013 21:05 ggrrg wrote: I don't see what the problem is with having two sB teams with two different rosters playing in the league. Just make them play eachother in the first or second week and you can be pretty sure that nobody would want to throw games so early and won't be able to do so later...
It isn't nearly as simple as "who wins head to head" between them. Last season the top 3 teams were all 6-2, and the 4th and 5th place teams were 5-3. With standings that insanely close, it makes individual sets tons more important, since it actually matters if you win 5-0 rather than 3-2 or something.
I still don't understand how there is any potential for throwing if the two teams play in the first two weeks. Or do you think they will intentionally go for a 3-2 score in week 1? Any rigged results in the beginning of the season are about as likely to end up screwing up both teams as they are to help them, especially if the season ends up being as close as it has been last time.
As Sent said, it's not only about head to head. With 2 teams, you have more control over who else makes the playoffs. Throwing or even taking a 3-2 win instead of a 5-0 to control who makes the 4th spot can be done. Of course, nobody is saying they will do this, but the potential is there, and there will be unwanted suspicion if any curious results occur.
But this would not benefit any of the sB teams! That's not a fair concern because every other team can potentially do the same. Also, there has to be a certain situation occuring at the end of the season in order for playoff manipulations to be possible at all. sB with 2 teams might be more likely to end up being able to control such a situation than a particular other team, but certainly not as likely as any of the other teams.
Well, you are wrong. If you can't get it even after several people try to explain it, not much more we can do.
On July 28 2013 21:05 ggrrg wrote: I don't see what the problem is with having two sB teams with two different rosters playing in the league. Just make them play eachother in the first or second week and you can be pretty sure that nobody would want to throw games so early and won't be able to do so later...
It isn't nearly as simple as "who wins head to head" between them. Last season the top 3 teams were all 6-2, and the 4th and 5th place teams were 5-3. With standings that insanely close, it makes individual sets tons more important, since it actually matters if you win 5-0 rather than 3-2 or something.
I still don't understand how there is any potential for throwing if the two teams play in the first two weeks. Or do you think they will intentionally go for a 3-2 score in week 1? Any rigged results in the beginning of the season are about as likely to end up screwing up both teams as they are to help them, especially if the season ends up being as close as it has been last time.
As Sent said, it's not only about head to head. With 2 teams, you have more control over who else makes the playoffs. Throwing or even taking a 3-2 win instead of a 5-0 to control who makes the 4th spot can be done. Of course, nobody is saying they will do this, but the potential is there, and there will be unwanted suspicion if any curious results occur.
But this would not benefit any of the sB teams! That's not a fair concern because every other team can potentially do the same. Also, there has to be a certain situation occuring at the end of the season in order for playoff manipulations to be possible at all. sB with 2 teams might be more likely to end up being able to control such a situation than a particular other team, but certainly not as likely as any of the other teams.
I don't know how you can say any one team has the same potential amount of manipulation power as 2 teams.
In the situation I outlined, the throwing benefits the non-throwing team. So if SB A throws, SB B benefits, and so forth.
Collusion can indeed occur between any two teams, but is more likely between teams that are blatantly allied. See players/teams of the same nation in events like WCG. Sure random guy from Chile could collude with random guy from China, but it's far far more likely for two guys from Korea to collude to stack their brackets (I note Korea because this has indisputably occurred in the past). I don't think we should encourage such behavior.
If sB wants a second team in the league they could always branch out and rebrand the second team in the case of a team being unable to field 2 separated squads, so I sincerely don't see why not allow them to have a Team A and Team B in the league.
As long each of those fulfill DRTL requirements, they are good to go. If they end up in a situation where one of the teams could suspiciously throw up games in order to help the other team, all I can see as a result is that sB image will go down the drain, together with the involved players reputation.
And as a final note, Team A and Team B should be completely independent, which means no player swapping at any point in this league, under any circunstances.
On July 28 2013 21:05 ggrrg wrote: I don't see what the problem is with having two sB teams with two different rosters playing in the league. Just make them play eachother in the first or second week and you can be pretty sure that nobody would want to throw games so early and won't be able to do so later...
It isn't nearly as simple as "who wins head to head" between them. Last season the top 3 teams were all 6-2, and the 4th and 5th place teams were 5-3. With standings that insanely close, it makes individual sets tons more important, since it actually matters if you win 5-0 rather than 3-2 or something.
I still don't understand how there is any potential for throwing if the two teams play in the first two weeks. Or do you think they will intentionally go for a 3-2 score in week 1? Any rigged results in the beginning of the season are about as likely to end up screwing up both teams as they are to help them, especially if the season ends up being as close as it has been last time.
As Sent said, it's not only about head to head. With 2 teams, you have more control over who else makes the playoffs. Throwing or even taking a 3-2 win instead of a 5-0 to control who makes the 4th spot can be done. Of course, nobody is saying they will do this, but the potential is there, and there will be unwanted suspicion if any curious results occur.
But this would not benefit any of the sB teams! That's not a fair concern because every other team can potentially do the same. Also, there has to be a certain situation occuring at the end of the season in order for playoff manipulations to be possible at all. sB with 2 teams might be more likely to end up being able to control such a situation than a particular other team, but certainly not as likely as any of the other teams.
I don't know how you can say any one team has the same potential amount of manipulation power as 2 teams.
Because I assume that any team playing in the league would want to make the playoffs. This means that in order for one of the sb teams to profit from the other sb team throwing, one of the teams must already be certainly in the playoffs while the other is certainly out of the playoffs contender. 1. This assumes that one of the teams is willing to throw just so the other team possibly has an easier playoff opponent. 2. Considering how close last season was, we can expect that certainty of one team's fate will be achieved very late in the season (if not even after the last week). At the same time, any other team in the league also has a chance at having a secured playoff spot before the last week of games, and thus also might have the possibility to throw their final game in order to secure themselves an easier playoff opponent.
There are two more possibilities for a sb team to profit from the other sb team throwing. 1. They play against eachother late in the season and the one team throws so the other team gets to the playoffs or has a better chance of reaching the playoffs. This can be easily eliminated by making SB1 and SB2 play in the first week of the season.
2. - SB1 is already certainly in or out while SB2 is very close to reaching the playoffs. - There is the possibility of a 3-way tie with SB2 being on of the teams (say teams A and B). 2.1. if tiebreaker is head-to-head: If team B and SB2 have already played all of their games and they are tied but B has won against SB2 and would thus advance SB1 might want to throw their game against A (if SB2>A and B<A), in order to achieve a three-way tie in which SB2 gets another chance. However, this requires the knowledge that SB2 and B already won. If they had lost, letting A win would put them ahead of B and SB2. And with B>SB2, SB2 would be out no matter if 1 or 2 of the tied teams advance. This problem can be prevented by letting SB1 play before the other teams SB2 and B in the last week. 2.2 if tiebreaker is map score Theoretically, there is a miniscule chance of similar 3-way tie situation occuring, where all teams have tied map score. With the same reasoning as above, SB1 might want to throw. However, yet again knowledge of the other results is needed. The solution would be again letting SB1 play before SB2 and B.
On July 28 2013 23:24 EchOne wrote: In the situation I outlined, the throwing benefits the non-throwing team. So if SB A throws, SB B benefits, and so forth.
Collusion can indeed occur between any two teams, but is more likely between teams that are blatantly allied. See players/teams of the same nation in events like WCG. Sure random guy from Chile could collude with random guy from China, but it's far far more likely for two guys from Korea to collude to stack their brackets (I note Korea because this has indisputably occurred in the past). I don't think we should encourage such behavior.
I understand what you are talking about and I remember the example you gave However, this would only be an indirect benefit to SB B, since they have to be already qualified for the playoffs for this situation to matter. And as outlined in my reasoning above, theoretically any other team that has a guaranteed spot in the playoffs can potentially throw their final game in order to get an easier playoff opponent/remove a nasty opponent.
On July 28 2013 23:34 fabiano wrote: [...]
And as a final note, Team A and Team B should be completely independent, which means no player swapping at any point in this league, under any circunstances.
The possibility of a 3-way map tie, even if miniscule, should not be discounted because it is not impossible. It has happened and it can happen again.
The solution of artificially enforcing an order to games played ("letting SB1 play before SB2 and B.") is difficult to work because the league invariably has postponements all the time. Last season we had postponements of up to 3 weeks later. Shit was ridiculous and we can't rely on any one series playing out all its games before another. It simply won't happen.
The likely scenario is that the series are played piecemeal, game by game, with SB1 and SB2 sharing information and results as the games get played.
Sure any team can throw for their own benefit or try to collude with others. This doesn't eliminate the fact that related or allied teams are more likely to collude, and that a benefit exists, even if indirect.
On July 29 2013 01:23 EchOne wrote: The possibility of a 3-way map tie, even if miniscule, should not be discounted because it is not impossible. It has happened and it can happen again.
Hmmm, looking through the results of the previous DRTLs I can't find an instance of a 3-way map-score tie. There were several 2-way map ties. However, throwing can only be beneficial in a 3-way situation.
The solution of artificially enforcing an order to games played ("letting SB1 play before SB2 and B.") is difficult to work because the league invariably has postponements all the time. Last season we had postponements of up to 3 weeks later. Shit was ridiculous and we can't rely on any one series playing out all its games before another. It simply won't happen.
I understand that scheduling problems can arise. However, the chances of this rescheduling being needed are extremely low to begin with. The chances for all games of the first match needed to have been played are even lower, so the rescheduling restrictions are smaller. Even after assuming that people would be willing to do shit like rigging games, the chances of a situation occuring where this is possible are basically non-existent. And the price of having to postpone some games a week or two longer even if this highly unlikely situation arises is, in my opinion, very low compared to the gain of having significantly more players exposed to the league.
Sure any team can throw for their own benefit or try to collude with others. This doesn't eliminate the fact that related or allied teams are more likely to collude, and that a benefit exists, even if indirect.
As already mentioned, it would be required for sb1 to be certainly through while sb2 is certainly out, so a throw would make any sense. I wouldn't say that this is more likely than the requirement of having any other team simply having secured a playoff spot. (Obvisouly, in both cases the throwing team also has to meet the exact opponent(s) that would allow for a throw to make sense). Also, I don't think it's fair to punish a team simply because they could be in a situation in which theoretically any other team could end up, too, simply because they might have a higher chance of being in that situation (which is even disputable if that is the case).
On July 28 2013 21:05 ggrrg wrote: I don't see what the problem is with having two sB teams with two different rosters playing in the league. Just make them play eachother in the first or second week and you can be pretty sure that nobody would want to throw games so early and won't be able to do so later...
It isn't nearly as simple as "who wins head to head" between them. Last season the top 3 teams were all 6-2, and the 4th and 5th place teams were 5-3. With standings that insanely close, it makes individual sets tons more important, since it actually matters if you win 5-0 rather than 3-2 or something.
I still don't understand how there is any potential for throwing if the two teams play in the first two weeks. Or do you think they will intentionally go for a 3-2 score in week 1? Any rigged results in the beginning of the season are about as likely to end up screwing up both teams as they are to help them, especially if the season ends up being as close as it has been last time.
As Sentenal mentioned, last season we essentially had 3 teams all vying for the last playoff spot in the last 1-2 weeks, complicated by postponements and such. The spot was essentially sealed by one team taking walkovers against a second team, the second team being unmotivated to play out the games since they were out of playoff contention.
If we enter a similar situation with 2 allied teams we can easily have, say, SB2 throwing a series against a playoff contender (let's say contender A) under the logic that SB1 will have an easier time against A than against contender B or C. This will easily put B and C out of contention, completely screwing over all their hard work up till that point.
Apparently, the problem you are talking about has occured in the past with teams that were not affiliated. Obviously having allied teams is not a requirement for this problem to occur.
On July 29 2013 03:09 Dazed_Spy wrote: No one said its a requirement, they've been saying it makes existing problems worst and ergo, should be avoided.
It makes a problem, which might or might not occur, worse... If anything the chance of having a walkover would be lower, since sb will probably rather make their players play, then bail on the league. Not to mention that with rescheduling (albeit being difficult) the problem could be removed completely. On top of that, it requires the assumption that a team is willing to throw games just for the sake of having maybe a marginally worse opponent in the playoffs.
I still think that the concerns are barely relevant, especially when the alternative means that 5-6 players won't be able to participate in the league or 10-12 players will be less exposed to it. I think this would be a big loss for a league where players are such a rare commodity.
I think birdie' s intentions are noble, but there is a reason that no sports competition and league have 2 teams with same manager. Therefore i must say i am against this. Maybe if there is an example of a situation where this have been done, i might change my position. But not the team A team B, that is pretty common, usually that indicates a relative overall rank difference.
DEM BIRDS
I still think that the concerns are barely relevant, especially when the alternative means that 5-6 players won't be able to participate in the league or 10-12 players will be less exposed to it. I think this would be a big loss for a league where players are such a rare commodity.
So? why not sell/give away some of your players... thats what teams do all the time when they have too many...
Also you could consider lending players to other teams for a season. That is done too.
On July 29 2013 03:50 pebble444 wrote: I think birdie' s intentions are noble, but there is a reason that no sports competition and league have 2 teams with same manager. Therefore i must say i am against this. Maybe if there is an example of a situation where this have been done, i might change my position. But not the team A team B, that is pretty common, usually that indicates a relative overall rank difference.
To be honest, I have no idea how birdie wants to split the team. But since you asked for examples:
I still think that the concerns are barely relevant, especially when the alternative means that 5-6 players won't be able to participate in the league or 10-12 players will be less exposed to it. I think this would be a big loss for a league where players are such a rare commodity.
So? why not sell/give away some of your players... thats what teams do all the time when they have too many...
Also you could consider lending players to other teams for a season. That is done too.
You offering money? :p
But honestly, I can't imagine, how you do that. "Hey buddy, you're kinda nice but we don't like you that much so go play with the other guys."
HOW DARE YOU REFERENCE LEAGUE OF LEGENDS MATERIAL IN THIS BROOD WARS FORUM? SHAME UPON THY!
In the end, it IS Lmaster's decision, but if it comes to where there's only 6 teams, excluding Birdie's possible divided roster, then I don't see why we would need a 7th team to make things annoying to generate a schedule with a bye + 12-14 weeks. ~.~;;
On July 29 2013 04:35 SynC[gm] wrote: HOW DARE YOU REFERENCE LEAGUE OF LEGENDS MATERIAL IN THIS BROOD WARS FORUM? SHAME UPON THY!
In the end, it IS Lmaster's decision, but if it comes to where there's only 6 teams, excluding Birdie's possible divided roster, then I don't see why we would need a 7th team to make things annoying to generate a schedule with a bye + 12-14 weeks. ~.~;;
That's probably the best argument against two sb rosters.
On a side note, I am quite surprised myself that all those boring LoL tournaments would happen to support my argument :p
On July 28 2013 23:34 fabiano wrote: If sB wants a second team in the league they could always branch out and rebrand the second team in the case of a team being unable to field 2 separated squads, so I sincerely don't see why not allow them to have a Team A and Team B in the league.
As long each of those fulfill DRTL requirements, they are good to go. If they end up in a situation where one of the teams could suspiciously throw up games in order to help the other team, all I can see as a result is that sB image will go down the drain, together with the involved players reputation.
And as a final note, Team A and Team B should be completely independent, which means no player swapping at any point in this league, under any circunstances.
Agreed. I don't see what the big fuss is about, as long as the players are ok with their team splitting. As long as the team without Birdie on it have a assigned captain, it should work. My main concern is whether SB have the depth. With Birdie, Arca, TheMarine, LCC and icedraco getting fielded pretty much all the time, I wonder if they really have the depth for 2 active teams. But if Birdie could fill those gaps by recruiting mainly outside of the free agency, then why not? I'm for (pretty much) anything that leads to more players in the league. This should also decrease the overall team skill level, as atleast 4 of those players are C- max.
On July 28 2013 23:34 fabiano wrote: If sB wants a second team in the league they could always branch out and rebrand the second team in the case of a team being unable to field 2 separated squads, so I sincerely don't see why not allow them to have a Team A and Team B in the league.
As long each of those fulfill DRTL requirements, they are good to go. If they end up in a situation where one of the teams could suspiciously throw up games in order to help the other team, all I can see as a result is that sB image will go down the drain, together with the involved players reputation.
And as a final note, Team A and Team B should be completely independent, which means no player swapping at any point in this league, under any circunstances.
Agreed. I don't see what the big fuss is about, as long as the players are ok with their team splitting. As long as the team without Birdie on it have a assigned captain, it should work. My main concern is whether SB have the depth. With Birdie, Arca, TheMarine, LCC and icedraco getting fielded pretty much all the time, I wonder if they really have the depth for 2 active teams. But if Birdie could fill those gaps by recruiting mainly outside of the free agency, then why not? I'm for (pretty much) anything that leads to more players in the league. This should also decrease the overall team skill level, as atleast 4 of those players are C- max.
I've got 9 players already. I'm well aware that a lot of the players I've recruited are not as high level as some of the veterans on the team, but that's yet another reason to have two teams. If there's one team, there's always the temptation for me to only play my best players (usually doesn't happen but it's still there). The purpose of the league is to get low level players motivated to play and practice more, so splitting into two teams means that there's much more playtime for the players involved.
The two teams would have separate rosters and a separate captain.
On July 29 2013 04:35 SynC[gm] wrote: HOW DARE YOU REFERENCE LEAGUE OF LEGENDS MATERIAL IN THIS BROOD WARS FORUM? SHAME UPON THY!
In the end, it IS Lmaster's decision, but if it comes to where there's only 6 teams, excluding Birdie's possible divided roster, then I don't see why we would need a 7th team to make things annoying to generate a schedule with a bye + 12-14 weeks. ~.~;;
12-14 week schedule with byes with 7 teams...? Birdie, plz stop this madness.
On July 29 2013 04:35 SynC[gm] wrote: HOW DARE YOU REFERENCE LEAGUE OF LEGENDS MATERIAL IN THIS BROOD WARS FORUM? SHAME UPON THY!
In the end, it IS Lmaster's decision, but if it comes to where there's only 6 teams, excluding Birdie's possible divided roster, then I don't see why we would need a 7th team to make things annoying to generate a schedule with a bye + 12-14 weeks. ~.~;;
12-14 week schedule with byes with 7 teams...? Birdie, plz stop this madness.
I'm thinking 12 weeks with 6 teams is most likely. 6 is a good number imo, and keep everything nice and even with no byes or disadvantage playoff situations from one team having harder schedule.
I agree, I already told xkcd/pebble that I'm leaving the team if Sun Khan decides to do a merger. Nor do I think that one person running 2 teams is good in the first place.
Interested in signing up as a free agent. I would love to practice a lot of TvZ lol. My schedule is all over the place but I'm sure I can find the time to practice and play in this league: Rank: D (~1200) ICCUP account: Golden_Phoenix Race: Terran
As for the teams, I don't see a reason to allow the same individual(or someone close to them) to have two teams. It just doesn't feel as legit to me at least even if they get someone else to run it. I think it should only be viable if the extra team is needed.
On July 29 2013 12:06 EchOne wrote: I'm not participating in an event where one person runs 2 teams.
I won't be running the other team, Arca will most likely.
Yeah, that barely makes any difference.
I'm confused about why people are so fucking butthurt over this, its really ridiculous
it's not like we're playing for hundreds of thousands of dollars where match fixing would actually have a purpose, i dont think anyone cares enough about winning to fix games. Like someone said earlier have them play each other at the start if thats the case, fucks sake.
On July 29 2013 12:06 EchOne wrote: I'm not participating in an event where one person runs 2 teams.
I won't be running the other team, Arca will most likely.
Yeah, that barely makes any difference.
I'm confused about why people are so fucking butthurt over this, its really ridiculous
it's not like we're playing for hundreds of thousands of dollars where match fixing would actually have a purpose, i dont think anyone cares enough about winning to fix games. Like someone said earlier have them play each other at the start if thats the case, fucks sake.
Well, with that attitude, what's the point in playing at all if there's no real reason to win and there's no prize pool? Some people, and seems like most people here, want to play in an organized league and want to win because of a competitive drive. As to whether Birdie should make a separate team or not, is up to Lmaster and whether or not we'll be going with 6 teams or 8 teams.
On July 29 2013 12:06 EchOne wrote: I'm not participating in an event where one person runs 2 teams.
I won't be running the other team, Arca will most likely.
Yeah, that barely makes any difference.
I'm confused about why people are so fucking butthurt over this, its really ridiculous
it's not like we're playing for hundreds of thousands of dollars where match fixing would actually have a purpose, i dont think anyone cares enough about winning to fix games. Like someone said earlier have them play each other at the start if thats the case, fucks sake.
Yeah, you are right, we aren't playing for money, so fuxk rules, organization, and integretity. Lets allow hackers and smurfs into the league as well, its not like there is money involved, so apparently that makes it okay.
On July 29 2013 12:06 EchOne wrote: I'm not participating in an event where one person runs 2 teams.
I won't be running the other team, Arca will most likely.
Yeah, that barely makes any difference.
I'm confused about why people are so fucking butthurt over this, its really ridiculous
it's not like we're playing for hundreds of thousands of dollars where match fixing would actually have a purpose, i dont think anyone cares enough about winning to fix games. Like someone said earlier have them play each other at the start if thats the case, fucks sake.
Jealous fixed a game in C ranks I think, just last season. NW power had players who were too good for the league just so they could smash players and laugh. Cheating happens, I bet there were many games that were jinky we werent aware of.
On July 29 2013 12:06 EchOne wrote: I'm not participating in an event where one person runs 2 teams.
I won't be running the other team, Arca will most likely.
Yeah, that barely makes any difference.
I'm confused about why people are so fucking butthurt over this, its really ridiculous
it's not like we're playing for hundreds of thousands of dollars where match fixing would actually have a purpose, i dont think anyone cares enough about winning to fix games. Like someone said earlier have them play each other at the start if thats the case, fucks sake.
Yeah, you are right, we aren't playing for money, so fuxk rules, organization, and integretity. Lets allow hackers and smurfs into the league as well, its not like there is money involved, so apparently that makes it okay.
It's not even the same thing, half of you arguing for the sake of arguing. What do they have to gain by match fixing? Nothing. Thats assuming these random internet players(that have never met/never will) are going to willingly throw games so that other people they dont know can win. And I think the chance of that happening drops dramatically to basically be non existent when you factor in theres no prize for them to win if they do decide to rig games(which im 100% certain wouldnt happen)
On July 29 2013 12:06 EchOne wrote: I'm not participating in an event where one person runs 2 teams.
I won't be running the other team, Arca will most likely.
Yeah, that barely makes any difference.
I'm confused about why people are so fucking butthurt over this, its really ridiculous
it's not like we're playing for hundreds of thousands of dollars where match fixing would actually have a purpose, i dont think anyone cares enough about winning to fix games. Like someone said earlier have them play each other at the start if thats the case, fucks sake.
Jealous fixed a game in C ranks I think, just last season. NW power had players who were too good for the league just so they could smash players and laugh. Cheating happens, I bet there were many games that were jinky we werent aware of.
He had someone else playing for him the entire time or something I think not sure. NW Power also dropped out and half their players werent even way over the league requirements, except Maciej which we discovered a couple days after the league started and no action was taken.
On July 29 2013 12:06 EchOne wrote: I'm not participating in an event where one person runs 2 teams.
I won't be running the other team, Arca will most likely.
Yeah, that barely makes any difference.
I'm confused about why people are so fucking butthurt over this, its really ridiculous
it's not like we're playing for hundreds of thousands of dollars where match fixing would actually have a purpose, i dont think anyone cares enough about winning to fix games. Like someone said earlier have them play each other at the start if thats the case, fucks sake.
Yeah, you are right, we aren't playing for money, so fuxk rules, organization, and integretity. Lets allow hackers and smurfs into the league as well, its not like there is money involved, so apparently that makes it okay.
It's not even the same thing, half of you arguing for the sake of arguing. What do they have to gain by match fixing? Nothing. Thats assuming these random internet players(that have never met/never will) are going to willingly throw games so that other people they dont know can win. And I think the chance of that happening drops dramatically to basically be non existent when you factor in theres no prize for them to win if they do decide to rig games(which im 100% certain wouldnt happen)
On July 29 2013 12:06 EchOne wrote: I'm not participating in an event where one person runs 2 teams.
I won't be running the other team, Arca will most likely.
Yeah, that barely makes any difference.
I'm confused about why people are so fucking butthurt over this, its really ridiculous
it's not like we're playing for hundreds of thousands of dollars where match fixing would actually have a purpose, i dont think anyone cares enough about winning to fix games. Like someone said earlier have them play each other at the start if thats the case, fucks sake.
Jealous fixed a game in C ranks I think, just last season. NW power had players who were too good for the league just so they could smash players and laugh. Cheating happens, I bet there were many games that were jinky we werent aware of.
He had someone else playing for him the entire time or something I think not sure. NW Power also dropped out and half their players werent even way over the league requirements, except Maciej which we discovered a couple days after the league started and no action was taken.
He let someone else play for him, on his account, in one game because he was busy and couldnt make it, which is cheating, whatever way you cut it. And what does NW power dropping out have to do with my point that cheating happened just last season? Thats just proof that when some morally deplorable people get called on cheating they react poorly...
^ no he never played a single game in c ranks, all minister
i think birdie has enough integrity to not intentionally collude and if the spin-off team is made up of entirely new members except for their captain, i think it should be ok. new members who don't really have any attachment to the SB name won't have any reason to throw their games if asked by birdie
If anyone has hard, conclusive evidence of me ever actually hitting a rank above D in iCCup 1v1, I'd like to see it. I probably play at a higher level than flat D, but lifetime max being D is the truth.
To be honest I don't understand where the problem lies for the few people who have a problem with this. It's not uncommon at all for sports to have clubs with two teams in the same league. For example, my soccer league has got 3 different clubs who have each entered two teams. No one accuses them of trying to cheat, and when the two teams play each other it's like the match of the season because both teams want to outdo the other As ggrrg pointed out, League of Legends has this same thing happen and no one accuses them of match-fixing. And yet the second I suggest having two teams under the sB tag there's a big kerfuffle about how Birdie's trying to set up matches or something like that.
Firstly, I'm entirely against any form of cheating and would ban any person in my team who did cheat in any form, immediately. Secondly, there are precedents in similar sports of this happening where it isn't a problem. Thirdly, it means there are more teams in the league (couple things I've seen suggest we might even have as many as 9-10 teams in the league if a couple of people go through with what they've been saying). The more the merrier! And the purpose of the league is to have low level players motivated to practice, and also to give them experience in tournament situations. The more people that are playing, the more this objective is achieved.
The only argument people have been coming in with is "this will lead to cheating", but other sports are quite happy to do it, so I don't think that the conclusion that a team is entering two teams should be considered an increased chance of cheating is necessarily a true conclusion to make. What happened to "innocent until proven guilty"?
On July 30 2013 06:00 rauk wrote: your trueskill rating puts you at approximately the same strength as lmaster or aeghrur or any random c- player from the league
IDK wtf trueskill is, but it is true hes never gotten above D on Iccup. Iccup ranks don't reflect skill anyway, so I don't see the point of people 'wtf'ing at Echo not lying when he says what he has ladder on Iccup before.
On July 29 2013 12:06 EchOne wrote: I'm not participating in an event where one person runs 2 teams.
I won't be running the other team, Arca will most likely.
Yeah, that barely makes any difference.
I'm confused about why people are so fucking butthurt over this, its really ridiculous
it's not like we're playing for hundreds of thousands of dollars where match fixing would actually have a purpose, i dont think anyone cares enough about winning to fix games. Like someone said earlier have them play each other at the start if thats the case, fucks sake.
Yeah, you are right, we aren't playing for money, so fuxk rules, organization, and integretity. Lets allow hackers and smurfs into the league as well, its not like there is money involved, so apparently that makes it okay.
It's not even the same thing, half of you arguing for the sake of arguing. What do they have to gain by match fixing? Nothing. Thats assuming these random internet players(that have never met/never will) are going to willingly throw games so that other people they dont know can win. And I think the chance of that happening drops dramatically to basically be non existent when you factor in theres no prize for them to win if they do decide to rig games(which im 100% certain wouldnt happen)
What does anyone have to gain by cheating (in any form what so ever) in this league? Nothing. No money involved. Therefore, since no one has any monetary motivations in this league, we should get rid of all of our rules. You have opened my eyes.
Anyway, if there are 2 sB teams this season, there probably won't a Courage team. I'm with Echo, and I doubt anyone else on the team wants to step up and captain, so thats that..
On July 30 2013 06:00 rauk wrote: your trueskill rating puts you at approximately the same strength as lmaster or aeghrur or any random c- player from the league
IDK wtf trueskill is, but it is true hes never gotten above D on Iccup. Iccup ranks don't reflect skill anyway, so I don't see the point of people 'wtf'ing at Echo not lying when he says what he has ladder on Iccup before.
On July 29 2013 12:06 EchOne wrote: I'm not participating in an event where one person runs 2 teams.
I won't be running the other team, Arca will most likely.
Yeah, that barely makes any difference.
I'm confused about why people are so fucking butthurt over this, its really ridiculous
it's not like we're playing for hundreds of thousands of dollars where match fixing would actually have a purpose, i dont think anyone cares enough about winning to fix games. Like someone said earlier have them play each other at the start if thats the case, fucks sake.
Yeah, you are right, we aren't playing for money, so fuxk rules, organization, and integretity. Lets allow hackers and smurfs into the league as well, its not like there is money involved, so apparently that makes it okay.
It's not even the same thing, half of you arguing for the sake of arguing. What do they have to gain by match fixing? Nothing. Thats assuming these random internet players(that have never met/never will) are going to willingly throw games so that other people they dont know can win. And I think the chance of that happening drops dramatically to basically be non existent when you factor in theres no prize for them to win if they do decide to rig games(which im 100% certain wouldnt happen)
What does anyone have to gain by cheating (in any form what so ever) in this league? Nothing. No money involved. Therefore, since no one has any monetary motivations in this league, we should get rid of all of our rules. You have opened my eyes.
On July 30 2013 06:00 rauk wrote: your trueskill rating puts you at approximately the same strength as lmaster or aeghrur or any random c- player from the league
IDK wtf trueskill is, but it is true hes never gotten above D on Iccup. Iccup ranks don't reflect skill anyway, so I don't see the point of people 'wtf'ing at Echo not lying when he says what he has ladder on Iccup before.
On July 29 2013 12:06 EchOne wrote: I'm not participating in an event where one person runs 2 teams.
I won't be running the other team, Arca will most likely.
Yeah, that barely makes any difference.
I'm confused about why people are so fucking butthurt over this, its really ridiculous
it's not like we're playing for hundreds of thousands of dollars where match fixing would actually have a purpose, i dont think anyone cares enough about winning to fix games. Like someone said earlier have them play each other at the start if thats the case, fucks sake.
Yeah, you are right, we aren't playing for money, so fuxk rules, organization, and integretity. Lets allow hackers and smurfs into the league as well, its not like there is money involved, so apparently that makes it okay.
It's not even the same thing, half of you arguing for the sake of arguing. What do they have to gain by match fixing? Nothing. Thats assuming these random internet players(that have never met/never will) are going to willingly throw games so that other people they dont know can win. And I think the chance of that happening drops dramatically to basically be non existent when you factor in theres no prize for them to win if they do decide to rig games(which im 100% certain wouldnt happen)
What does anyone have to gain by cheating (in any form what so ever) in this league? Nothing. No money involved. Therefore, since no one has any monetary motivations in this league, we should get rid of all of our rules. You have opened my eyes.
Anyway, if there are 2 sB teams this season, there probably won't a Courage team. I'm with Echo, and I doubt anyone else on the team wants to step up and captain, so thats that..
rating system similar in idea to elo but with different calculations
he might deliberately not ladder so he's not better than "d" but it's pretty clear he's much better than that
also if the second SB team is made up entirely of the new recruits that birdie says he found, what is the motivation for them to cheat for birdie? basically none
On July 30 2013 06:00 rauk wrote: your trueskill rating puts you at approximately the same strength as lmaster or aeghrur or any random c- player from the league
IDK wtf trueskill is, but it is true hes never gotten above D on Iccup. Iccup ranks don't reflect skill anyway, so I don't see the point of people 'wtf'ing at Echo not lying when he says what he has ladder on Iccup before.
On July 30 2013 03:46 arb wrote:
On July 30 2013 03:34 Sentenal wrote:
On July 30 2013 02:42 arb wrote:
On July 30 2013 01:57 Sentenal wrote:
On July 29 2013 12:47 Birdie wrote:
On July 29 2013 12:06 EchOne wrote: I'm not participating in an event where one person runs 2 teams.
I won't be running the other team, Arca will most likely.
Yeah, that barely makes any difference.
I'm confused about why people are so fucking butthurt over this, its really ridiculous
it's not like we're playing for hundreds of thousands of dollars where match fixing would actually have a purpose, i dont think anyone cares enough about winning to fix games. Like someone said earlier have them play each other at the start if thats the case, fucks sake.
Yeah, you are right, we aren't playing for money, so fuxk rules, organization, and integretity. Lets allow hackers and smurfs into the league as well, its not like there is money involved, so apparently that makes it okay.
It's not even the same thing, half of you arguing for the sake of arguing. What do they have to gain by match fixing? Nothing. Thats assuming these random internet players(that have never met/never will) are going to willingly throw games so that other people they dont know can win. And I think the chance of that happening drops dramatically to basically be non existent when you factor in theres no prize for them to win if they do decide to rig games(which im 100% certain wouldnt happen)
What does anyone have to gain by cheating (in any form what so ever) in this league? Nothing. No money involved. Therefore, since no one has any monetary motivations in this league, we should get rid of all of our rules. You have opened my eyes.
Anyway, if there are 2 sB teams this season, there probably won't a Courage team. I'm with Echo, and I doubt anyone else on the team wants to step up and captain, so thats that..
rating system similar in idea to elo but with different calculations
he might deliberately not ladder so he's not better than "d" but it's pretty clear he's much better than that
also if the second SB team is made up entirely of the new recruits that birdie says he found, what is the motivation for them to cheat for birdie? basically none
no they're going to cheat, because theres no motivation doesnt mean they wont do it
what if birdie kicked arca from sb and arca formed his own team? would that not be allowed? what is the functional difference between birdie doing that and him creating SB2?
i guess this means that sunkhan will cheat for despa, even though there's no motivation doesn't mean they won't do it
On July 30 2013 06:00 rauk wrote: your trueskill rating puts you at approximately the same strength as lmaster or aeghrur or any random c- player from the league
IDK wtf trueskill is, but it is true hes never gotten above D on Iccup. Iccup ranks don't reflect skill anyway, so I don't see the point of people 'wtf'ing at Echo not lying when he says what he has ladder on Iccup before.
On July 30 2013 03:46 arb wrote:
On July 30 2013 03:34 Sentenal wrote:
On July 30 2013 02:42 arb wrote:
On July 30 2013 01:57 Sentenal wrote:
On July 29 2013 12:47 Birdie wrote:
On July 29 2013 12:06 EchOne wrote: I'm not participating in an event where one person runs 2 teams.
I won't be running the other team, Arca will most likely.
Yeah, that barely makes any difference.
I'm confused about why people are so fucking butthurt over this, its really ridiculous
it's not like we're playing for hundreds of thousands of dollars where match fixing would actually have a purpose, i dont think anyone cares enough about winning to fix games. Like someone said earlier have them play each other at the start if thats the case, fucks sake.
Yeah, you are right, we aren't playing for money, so fuxk rules, organization, and integretity. Lets allow hackers and smurfs into the league as well, its not like there is money involved, so apparently that makes it okay.
It's not even the same thing, half of you arguing for the sake of arguing. What do they have to gain by match fixing? Nothing. Thats assuming these random internet players(that have never met/never will) are going to willingly throw games so that other people they dont know can win. And I think the chance of that happening drops dramatically to basically be non existent when you factor in theres no prize for them to win if they do decide to rig games(which im 100% certain wouldnt happen)
What does anyone have to gain by cheating (in any form what so ever) in this league? Nothing. No money involved. Therefore, since no one has any monetary motivations in this league, we should get rid of all of our rules. You have opened my eyes.
Anyway, if there are 2 sB teams this season, there probably won't a Courage team. I'm with Echo, and I doubt anyone else on the team wants to step up and captain, so thats that..
rating system similar in idea to elo but with different calculations
he might deliberately not ladder so he's not better than "d" but it's pretty clear he's much better than that
also if the second SB team is made up entirely of the new recruits that birdie says he found, what is the motivation for them to cheat for birdie? basically none
Hes easily better than what you would expect out of D rank players, I agree. I'm just saying that just because he is saying his "rank" is D, doesn't mean hes saying his "skill" is D.
On July 30 2013 06:21 rauk wrote: what if birdie kicked arca from sb and arca formed his own team? would that not be allowed? what is the functional difference between birdie doing that and him creating SB2?
because no matter what they're going to cheat because they're friends it doesnt matter if theres no motivation it's going to happen.
look now im arguing like everyone else in the thread
On July 30 2013 06:21 rauk wrote: what if birdie kicked arca from sb and arca formed his own team? would that not be allowed? what is the functional difference between birdie doing that and him creating SB2?
because no matter what they're going to cheat because they're friends it doesnt matter if theres no motivation it's going to happen.
look now im arguing like everyone else in the thread
If theres motivation to win theres motivation to cheat. You can make the same post fourty times in a row and each time pretend were just being argumentative; you arent going to convince anyone that human nature isnt what it is.
On July 30 2013 06:21 rauk wrote: what if birdie kicked arca from sb and arca formed his own team? would that not be allowed? what is the functional difference between birdie doing that and him creating SB2?
because no matter what they're going to cheat because they're friends it doesnt matter if theres no motivation it's going to happen.
look now im arguing like everyone else in the thread
If theres motivation to win theres motivation to cheat. You can make the same post fourty times in a row and each time pretend were just being argumentative; you arent going to convince anyone that human nature isnt what it is.
Everyone in the league has motivation to cheat because they all want to win. Having two sB teams does not change that.
On July 30 2013 06:21 rauk wrote: what if birdie kicked arca from sb and arca formed his own team? would that not be allowed? what is the functional difference between birdie doing that and him creating SB2?
because no matter what they're going to cheat because they're friends it doesnt matter if theres no motivation it's going to happen.
look now im arguing like everyone else in the thread
If theres motivation to win theres motivation to cheat. You can make the same post fourty times in a row and each time pretend were just being argumentative; you arent going to convince anyone that human nature isnt what it is.
That's fine, but going back to Rauk's point, what's the difference between a completely newly formed team and a "second sB team" which has a different manager, different name, and different players?
I trust Birdie himself to act with integrity and sportsmanship. But I disagree with the "one-entity-multiple-teams" notion on principle. Perhaps the principle is wrong and I must be educated on it further, but as long as I hold that principle, I'm not going to make exceptions just because I trust one person.
Just because there are other sports events that allow this doesn't mean it is "right." There are also sports events where this does not occur, such as the FIFA World Cup, but this fact doesn't make it "wrong" either. Discussion of principle involves the core logic of the issue. Cases can be evidence, but they don't justify entire positions.
On July 30 2013 06:00 rauk wrote: your trueskill rating puts you at approximately the same strength as lmaster or aeghrur or any random c- player from the league
IDK wtf trueskill is, but it is true hes never gotten above D on Iccup. Iccup ranks don't reflect skill anyway, so I don't see the point of people 'wtf'ing at Echo not lying when he says what he has ladder on Iccup before.
On July 30 2013 03:46 arb wrote:
On July 30 2013 03:34 Sentenal wrote:
On July 30 2013 02:42 arb wrote:
On July 30 2013 01:57 Sentenal wrote:
On July 29 2013 12:47 Birdie wrote:
On July 29 2013 12:06 EchOne wrote: I'm not participating in an event where one person runs 2 teams.
I won't be running the other team, Arca will most likely.
Yeah, that barely makes any difference.
I'm confused about why people are so fucking butthurt over this, its really ridiculous
it's not like we're playing for hundreds of thousands of dollars where match fixing would actually have a purpose, i dont think anyone cares enough about winning to fix games. Like someone said earlier have them play each other at the start if thats the case, fucks sake.
Yeah, you are right, we aren't playing for money, so fuxk rules, organization, and integretity. Lets allow hackers and smurfs into the league as well, its not like there is money involved, so apparently that makes it okay.
It's not even the same thing, half of you arguing for the sake of arguing. What do they have to gain by match fixing? Nothing. Thats assuming these random internet players(that have never met/never will) are going to willingly throw games so that other people they dont know can win. And I think the chance of that happening drops dramatically to basically be non existent when you factor in theres no prize for them to win if they do decide to rig games(which im 100% certain wouldnt happen)
What does anyone have to gain by cheating (in any form what so ever) in this league? Nothing. No money involved. Therefore, since no one has any monetary motivations in this league, we should get rid of all of our rules. You have opened my eyes.
Anyway, if there are 2 sB teams this season, there probably won't a Courage team. I'm with Echo, and I doubt anyone else on the team wants to step up and captain, so thats that..
rating system similar in idea to elo but with different calculations
he might deliberately not ladder so he's not better than "d" but it's pretty clear he's much better than that
also if the second SB team is made up entirely of the new recruits that birdie says he found, what is the motivation for them to cheat for birdie? basically none
On July 30 2013 06:00 rauk wrote: your trueskill rating puts you at approximately the same strength as lmaster or aeghrur or any random c- player from the league
IDK wtf trueskill is, but it is true hes never gotten above D on Iccup. Iccup ranks don't reflect skill anyway, so I don't see the point of people 'wtf'ing at Echo not lying when he says what he has ladder on Iccup before.
On July 30 2013 03:46 arb wrote:
On July 30 2013 03:34 Sentenal wrote:
On July 30 2013 02:42 arb wrote:
On July 30 2013 01:57 Sentenal wrote:
On July 29 2013 12:47 Birdie wrote:
On July 29 2013 12:06 EchOne wrote: I'm not participating in an event where one person runs 2 teams.
I won't be running the other team, Arca will most likely.
Yeah, that barely makes any difference.
I'm confused about why people are so fucking butthurt over this, its really ridiculous
it's not like we're playing for hundreds of thousands of dollars where match fixing would actually have a purpose, i dont think anyone cares enough about winning to fix games. Like someone said earlier have them play each other at the start if thats the case, fucks sake.
Yeah, you are right, we aren't playing for money, so fuxk rules, organization, and integretity. Lets allow hackers and smurfs into the league as well, its not like there is money involved, so apparently that makes it okay.
It's not even the same thing, half of you arguing for the sake of arguing. What do they have to gain by match fixing? Nothing. Thats assuming these random internet players(that have never met/never will) are going to willingly throw games so that other people they dont know can win. And I think the chance of that happening drops dramatically to basically be non existent when you factor in theres no prize for them to win if they do decide to rig games(which im 100% certain wouldnt happen)
What does anyone have to gain by cheating (in any form what so ever) in this league? Nothing. No money involved. Therefore, since no one has any monetary motivations in this league, we should get rid of all of our rules. You have opened my eyes.
Anyway, if there are 2 sB teams this season, there probably won't a Courage team. I'm with Echo, and I doubt anyone else on the team wants to step up and captain, so thats that..
rating system similar in idea to elo but with different calculations
he might deliberately not ladder so he's not better than "d" but it's pretty clear he's much better than that
also if the second SB team is made up entirely of the new recruits that birdie says he found, what is the motivation for them to cheat for birdie? basically none
On July 30 2013 07:18 tonight wrote: if everyone played enough games here they would hit C- it's not really saying much
With enough games one can hit C- with less than 50% winrate playing only against D opponents without motw. By playing only D+ opponents and motw you can hit C- with 30% winrate...
On July 30 2013 07:09 Sentenal wrote: You guys don't think "Hey, lets do the exact same thing as this but call it something different" actually changes anything, do you?
exactly
so what i'm asking is if, before any mention of a 2nd SB team or anything, arca had said "i don't like birdie, i'm making my own team" and make his own team, would that have been acceptable? and if that is acceptable, why isn't 2 SB teams acceptable since they're essentially equivalent?
what if i decided i wanted to captain my own DRTL team this season? would you say "no, you used to play for despa, so you aren't allowed to"
On July 30 2013 07:09 Sentenal wrote: You guys don't think "Hey, lets do the exact same thing as this but call it something different" actually changes anything, do you?
exactly
so what i'm asking is if, before any mention of a 2nd SB team or anything, arca had said "i don't like birdie, i'm making my own team" and make his own team, would that have been acceptable? and if that is acceptable, why isn't 2 SB teams acceptable since they're essentially equivalent?
what if i decided i wanted to captain my own DRTL team this season? would you say "no, you used to play for despa, so you aren't allowed to"
The concern is that friends and ex teammates have a greater likelihood and incentive to conspire in order to aid one another. If it were true that Arca, and many of his future teammates were not friends with Birde and his remaining teammates, then yes, it would change the entire nature of the situation. But note, it would change the situation entirely, we are not in that position whatsoever.
On July 30 2013 07:09 Sentenal wrote: You guys don't think "Hey, lets do the exact same thing as this but call it something different" actually changes anything, do you?
exactly
so what i'm asking is if, before any mention of a 2nd SB team or anything, arca had said "i don't like birdie, i'm making my own team" and make his own team, would that have been acceptable? and if that is acceptable, why isn't 2 SB teams acceptable since they're essentially equivalent?
what if i decided i wanted to captain my own DRTL team this season? would you say "no, you used to play for despa, so you aren't allowed to"
The concern is that friends and ex teammates have a greater likelihood and incentive to conspire in order to aid one another. If it were true that Arca, and many of his future teammates were not friends with Birde and his remaining teammates, then yes, it would change the entire nature of the situation. But note, it would change the situation entirely, we are not in that position whatsoever.
We're basically in that position, in that it would be Arca and probably TheMarine running the second team, and the members would be new people to sB, so in that sense they're not longtime friends.
On July 30 2013 07:18 tonight wrote: if everyone played enough games here they would hit C- it's not really saying much
With enough games one can hit C- with less than 50% winrate playing only against D opponents without motw. By playing only D+ opponents and motw you can hit C- with 30% winrate...
I have 0% winrate vs D+ opponents \o/
Also Echo, I'll be able to play some weeks so just add me to roster. Probably will disappear again near end of Sept.
I'm pretty sure everyone is set on the fact that if Stealth Bunnies go through with the 2-team plan, that Courage won't play. So I guess this is just a matter of Birdie deciding on whether or not Courage is going to play? I don't see either side getting convinced for the other point...
Also, Birdie, to your point about having 8-9 teams, obviously, that's what happened DRTL4, but look at all the walkovers that happened and the entire NW Power fiasco. I'm pretty sure most of us can agree on the fact that the league isn't really focused on "getting D-/D players to get better" anymore. We're all out to win, which is a fair goal to set, but lets not put out the bullshit excuse that this person or the other person wants D-/D players to come in here and have a merry good time losing all day long to D+/C- players, and improving enough overnight to beat said D+/C- players the next day.
As Echo said, Lmaster should finally set this in stone; players that have hit C-, or are very close to C-, are allowed to play or shouldn't be allowed to play. Goes for TAKK, for myself, for Lmaster himself, and for everyone that plans on participating.
1)Two teams captained by different people with different, set rosters is acceptable to me. That's perfectly reasonable, and doesn't set a bad precedent as I see it. There is nothing wrong with a team becoming too big and fragmenting into smaller teams with seperate captains and rosters. 2)Wala and Panda are definitly not eligible to play. I'm probably allowing previous DRTL players to play for the sake of keeping the league in tact, but definitely not allowing in former yellow ranks or new yellow ranks...even if they have been inactive.
On July 30 2013 11:58 Sentenal wrote: Courage won't be participating this DRTL, then. Have fun with the league, everyone who is.
I haven't actually confirmed that there will be two teams, this was all an idea, and it somewhat relies on me finding three more players. I have too many for one team and not quite enough for two, I'd suggest you wait until we find out if I can find enough players or not.
On July 30 2013 11:58 Sentenal wrote: Courage won't be participating this DRTL, then. Have fun with the league, everyone who is.
I haven't actually confirmed that there will be two teams, this was all an idea, and it somewhat relies on me finding three more players. I have too many for one team and not quite enough for two, I'd suggest you wait until we find out if I can find enough players or not.
It's more lack of interest from TLADT than anything else at this point.
On July 30 2013 12:04 Sentenal wrote: K, well in the event you do find those players, Courage won't be participating.
That's unfortunate.
The problem I have is that sB splitting is simply a team becoming too big. I really can't see any reason a team wouldnt be allowed to do that as it can be something that naturally occurs. TAKK is also close to that point. The only other solution for a team in that position would be to just drop half the players and sprinkle them to other teams...but that could suck for players because it would potentially fracture core sub groups within a team also.
Oh no the D team that is actually a C team won't be playing, such a shame! I wonder what we can do with all these C- players that somehow didn't dodge the cut off point for people too good for this league....
On July 30 2013 13:39 Jealous wrote: Oh no the D team that is actually a C team won't be playing, such a shame! I wonder what we can do with all these C- players that somehow didn't dodge the cut off point for people too good for this league....
it basically like I said screams butthurt because of nothing. Ridiculous the league is for fun and people who wont even get a chance to play and they turn into cry babies about it and leave the league
Hopefully, cooler heads can prevail, and if we can pull it off and we actually have a good number of trusted teams, then we can get a large D-ranks teamleague going and have some decent success with it this time around, which would also be a great lead-up to the all-kill league, which I'm personally hoping for... >.>
On July 30 2013 13:39 Jealous wrote: Oh no the D team that is actually a C team won't be playing, such a shame! I wonder what we can do with all these C- players that somehow didn't dodge the cut off point for people too good for this league....
it basically like I said screams butthurt because of nothing. Ridiculous the league is for fun and people who wont even get a chance to play and they turn into cry babies about it and leave the league
good job guys
I mean come on, you already know who was slated to play on the team. They wanted the EZ win, saw that they might not get it, got scurred and dodged hard. I've seen that bait and switch routine on ICCup all the time ("go re?" "ok" -never hosts game-).
On July 30 2013 12:04 Sentenal wrote: K, well in the event you do find those players, Courage won't be participating.
That's unfortunate.
The problem I have is that sB splitting is simply a team becoming too big. I really can't see any reason a team wouldnt be allowed to do that as it can be something that naturally occurs. TAKK is also close to that point. The only other solution for a team in that position would be to just drop half the players and sprinkle them to other teams...but that could suck for players because it would potentially fracture core sub groups within a team also.
Why don't TAKK and sB drop 3-4 players each and form a new team?
On July 30 2013 12:04 Sentenal wrote: K, well in the event you do find those players, Courage won't be participating.
That's unfortunate.
The problem I have is that sB splitting is simply a team becoming too big. I really can't see any reason a team wouldnt be allowed to do that as it can be something that naturally occurs. TAKK is also close to that point. The only other solution for a team in that position would be to just drop half the players and sprinkle them to other teams...but that could suck for players because it would potentially fracture core sub groups within a team also.
Why don't TAKK and sB drop 3-4 players each and form a new team?
Because it'd be pretty lame to have people join a team and then say "oh btw we're dropping you to a different team, gl hf". And you need someone to organize the team too, which is pretty important.
I hope this will provide better and more practical data during the league. TEMPLATE FOR CONTACT/INFO SHEET:
Two things: i havn' t seen many teams officially sign up, this is not how things are right now. Just a template to be added i hope to the OP before league actually starts. I put teams in here that havn' t signed up yet.
About skype, i think it would be good if team captains and co-captains would give their skype to be put here, or an alternative form of contact (email or other) , but i need your permission first. If you sign up and decide to use the template please have a link to the actual "game profile on iccup" and not the profile page itself, or else just post normally and i will update it.
Some players i had to put HERE instead of name because of the ] or [ in their name messing up the bb code
If you have other banners you want to use say so, i just took what i found
Uhhh, Wala and Panda not getting in has nothing to do with it. Its pretty obvious what our complaint was, but if a CRTL cheater wants to think we are "dodging", more power to him.
On July 30 2013 23:20 Sentenal wrote: Uhhh, Wala and Panda not getting in has nothing to do with it. Its pretty obvious what our complaint was, but if a CRTL cheater wants to think we are "dodging", more power to him.
Maybe I'm being a little daft, but unless the complaint is that there are alot of people that can hit C- playing in this league I'm missing your point. Obviously given my second and third posts in this topic it should be pretty clear what my position on C- players is. However, if I made anybody that has ever hit C- ineligible there goes half the players and we don't have a league at all. If it is specifically a complaint against TAKK, it's not without warrant and there is a reason why players like myself are considering not playing in S5.I do think it's worth nothing however that past DRTL precedent has been to allow in players from previous seasons that have hit C- but have not reached the skill to maintain said rank. This is the case for TAKK.
On July 30 2013 23:20 Sentenal wrote: Uhhh, Wala and Panda not getting in has nothing to do with it. Its pretty obvious what our complaint was, but if a CRTL cheater wants to think we are "dodging", more power to him.
Maybe I'm being a little daft, but unless the complaint is that there are alot of people that can hit C- playing in this league I'm missing your point. Obviously given my second and third posts in this topic it should be pretty clear what my position on C- players is. However, if I made anybody that has ever hit C- ineligible there goes half the players and we don't have a league at all. If it is specifically a complaint against TAKK, it's not without warrant and there is a reason why players like myself are considering not playing in S5.I do think it's worth nothing however that past DRTL precedent has been to allow in players from previous seasons that have hit C- but have not reached the skill to maintain said rank. This is the case for TAKK.
We aren't pulling out because Wala and Panda aren't getting in. This has nothing to do with anything regarding C- players. At all. I was responding to Babo, who was saying that was the reason. Our complaint is about the sB situation.
On July 30 2013 23:20 Sentenal wrote: Uhhh, Wala and Panda not getting in has nothing to do with it. Its pretty obvious what our complaint was, but if a CRTL cheater wants to think we are "dodging", more power to him.
Maybe I'm being a little daft, but unless the complaint is that there are alot of people that can hit C- playing in this league I'm missing your point. Obviously given my second and third posts in this topic it should be pretty clear what my position on C- players is. However, if I made anybody that has ever hit C- ineligible there goes half the players and we don't have a league at all. If it is specifically a complaint against TAKK, it's not without warrant and there is a reason why players like myself are considering not playing in S5.I do think it's worth nothing however that past DRTL precedent has been to allow in players from previous seasons that have hit C- but have not reached the skill to maintain said rank. This is the case for TAKK.
We aren't pulling out because Wala and Panda aren't getting in. This has nothing to do with anything regarding C- players. At all. I was responding to Babo, who was saying that was the reason. Our complaint is about the sB situation.
Stop being butthurt for 1 minute and listen.Arca/Me are going to captain the other team seperatly without birdie's guidance/commands/help. Jesus Christ,i'd have an easier time winning an argument against a brick wall than winning it against you.
On July 30 2013 23:20 Sentenal wrote: Uhhh, Wala and Panda not getting in has nothing to do with it. Its pretty obvious what our complaint was, but if a CRTL cheater wants to think we are "dodging", more power to him.
Maybe I'm being a little daft, but unless the complaint is that there are alot of people that can hit C- playing in this league I'm missing your point. Obviously given my second and third posts in this topic it should be pretty clear what my position on C- players is. However, if I made anybody that has ever hit C- ineligible there goes half the players and we don't have a league at all. If it is specifically a complaint against TAKK, it's not without warrant and there is a reason why players like myself are considering not playing in S5.I do think it's worth nothing however that past DRTL precedent has been to allow in players from previous seasons that have hit C- but have not reached the skill to maintain said rank. This is the case for TAKK.
We aren't pulling out because Wala and Panda aren't getting in. This has nothing to do with anything regarding C- players. At all. I was responding to Babo, who was saying that was the reason. Our complaint is about the sB situation.
Ah okay.
I really wish I could do something that would work for both teams, but what you seem to be saying is something I can't go with.
sB is too big for all their players to get adequate playtime, so a few sB guys want to go and start a new team with themselves and free agents. Saying they can't do this is literally saying that no, once you have joined a DRTL team, even if it gets to big you have to stay there. Can't go and start your own new team. I couldn't disagree more.
If we had an issue of two sB teams being run by the same person, or god forbid an intertwined roster, yes that's an absolute, hard no way in hell. This is an issue of the marine and arca wanting to start their own team so they can get more playing time. Maybe we just disagree but in my mind it's totally crazy for me to say "No, you can't do this because you have already been on sB. Sorry" because the logic their is you have already been one DRTL team, and therefore you cannot start another. There is no reason I can think of to dis-allow this. If your not satisfied with your team players should absolutely by allowed to join another or start their own new team.
Why not just not call it sB lol. Do not understand.
Anyways, I was only poking at Courage because it would definitely be for the betterment of the league if some of the strongest players of the league are distributed a little more evenly amongst the teams. Proleague would never have been entertaining or fair if you had Bisu, Stork, Flash, Jaedong, and Fantasy appearing every week for SKT.
I think that the best course would be for each existing team to pick up whatever players of Courage are still willing to participate in draft format.
On July 30 2013 23:20 Sentenal wrote: Uhhh, Wala and Panda not getting in has nothing to do with it. Its pretty obvious what our complaint was, but if a CRTL cheater wants to think we are "dodging", more power to him.
Maybe I'm being a little daft, but unless the complaint is that there are alot of people that can hit C- playing in this league I'm missing your point. Obviously given my second and third posts in this topic it should be pretty clear what my position on C- players is. However, if I made anybody that has ever hit C- ineligible there goes half the players and we don't have a league at all. If it is specifically a complaint against TAKK, it's not without warrant and there is a reason why players like myself are considering not playing in S5.I do think it's worth nothing however that past DRTL precedent has been to allow in players from previous seasons that have hit C- but have not reached the skill to maintain said rank. This is the case for TAKK.
We aren't pulling out because Wala and Panda aren't getting in. This has nothing to do with anything regarding C- players. At all. I was responding to Babo, who was saying that was the reason. Our complaint is about the sB situation.
Ah okay.
I really wish I could do something that would work for both teams, but what you seem to be saying is something I can't go with.
sB is too big for all their players to get adequate playtime, so a few sB guys want to go and start a new team with themselves and free agents. Saying they can't do this is literally saying that no, once you have joined a DRTL team, even if it gets to big you have to stay there. Can't go and start your own new team. I couldn't disagree more.
If we had an issue of two sB teams being run by the same person, or god forbid an intertwined roster, yes that's an absolute, hard no way in hell. This is an issue of the marine and arca wanting to start their own team so they can get more playing time. Maybe we just disagree but in my mind it's totally crazy for me to say "No, you can't do this because you have already been on sB. Sorry" because the logic their is you have already been one DRTL team, and therefore you cannot start another. There is no reason I can think of to dis-allow this. If your not satisfied with your team players should absolutely by allowed to join another or start their own new team.
We obviously see the situation completely differently. This was basically Birdie wanting to run 2 teams, followed by a group brainstorm to do just that, but call it something else. Anyway, i'm done arguing about it. I think its a shame this league is allowing that to happen, but no one will change their minds, so whatever.
On July 30 2013 23:20 Sentenal wrote: Uhhh, Wala and Panda not getting in has nothing to do with it. Its pretty obvious what our complaint was, but if a CRTL cheater wants to think we are "dodging", more power to him.
Maybe I'm being a little daft, but unless the complaint is that there are alot of people that can hit C- playing in this league I'm missing your point. Obviously given my second and third posts in this topic it should be pretty clear what my position on C- players is. However, if I made anybody that has ever hit C- ineligible there goes half the players and we don't have a league at all. If it is specifically a complaint against TAKK, it's not without warrant and there is a reason why players like myself are considering not playing in S5.I do think it's worth nothing however that past DRTL precedent has been to allow in players from previous seasons that have hit C- but have not reached the skill to maintain said rank. This is the case for TAKK.
We aren't pulling out because Wala and Panda aren't getting in. This has nothing to do with anything regarding C- players. At all. I was responding to Babo, who was saying that was the reason. Our complaint is about the sB situation.
Ah okay.
I really wish I could do something that would work for both teams, but what you seem to be saying is something I can't go with.
sB is too big for all their players to get adequate playtime, so a few sB guys want to go and start a new team with themselves and free agents. Saying they can't do this is literally saying that no, once you have joined a DRTL team, even if it gets to big you have to stay there. Can't go and start your own new team. I couldn't disagree more.
If we had an issue of two sB teams being run by the same person, or god forbid an intertwined roster, yes that's an absolute, hard no way in hell. This is an issue of the marine and arca wanting to start their own team so they can get more playing time. Maybe we just disagree but in my mind it's totally crazy for me to say "No, you can't do this because you have already been on sB. Sorry" because the logic their is you have already been one DRTL team, and therefore you cannot start another. There is no reason I can think of to dis-allow this. If your not satisfied with your team players should absolutely by allowed to join another or start their own new team.
We obviously see the situation completely differently. This was basically Birdie wanting to run 2 teams, followed by a group brainstorm to do just that, but call it something else. Anyway, i'm done arguing about it. I think its a shame this league is allowing that to happen, but no one will change their minds, so whatever.
You really believe that once a player joins a DRTL team they should be stuck there for all eternity? If so, I guess we just disagree.
EDIT: Arca and Marine have both stated to me that they want to run their own team, and I believe said it in thread. I'm not in the habit off assuming that people that have never given me a reason to doubt them are liars, and that is why I have no qualms at all with the situation.
On July 30 2013 23:20 Sentenal wrote: Uhhh, Wala and Panda not getting in has nothing to do with it. Its pretty obvious what our complaint was, but if a CRTL cheater wants to think we are "dodging", more power to him.
Maybe I'm being a little daft, but unless the complaint is that there are alot of people that can hit C- playing in this league I'm missing your point. Obviously given my second and third posts in this topic it should be pretty clear what my position on C- players is. However, if I made anybody that has ever hit C- ineligible there goes half the players and we don't have a league at all. If it is specifically a complaint against TAKK, it's not without warrant and there is a reason why players like myself are considering not playing in S5.I do think it's worth nothing however that past DRTL precedent has been to allow in players from previous seasons that have hit C- but have not reached the skill to maintain said rank. This is the case for TAKK.
We aren't pulling out because Wala and Panda aren't getting in. This has nothing to do with anything regarding C- players. At all. I was responding to Babo, who was saying that was the reason. Our complaint is about the sB situation.
Ah okay.
I really wish I could do something that would work for both teams, but what you seem to be saying is something I can't go with.
sB is too big for all their players to get adequate playtime, so a few sB guys want to go and start a new team with themselves and free agents. Saying they can't do this is literally saying that no, once you have joined a DRTL team, even if it gets to big you have to stay there. Can't go and start your own new team. I couldn't disagree more.
If we had an issue of two sB teams being run by the same person, or god forbid an intertwined roster, yes that's an absolute, hard no way in hell. This is an issue of the marine and arca wanting to start their own team so they can get more playing time. Maybe we just disagree but in my mind it's totally crazy for me to say "No, you can't do this because you have already been on sB. Sorry" because the logic their is you have already been one DRTL team, and therefore you cannot start another. There is no reason I can think of to dis-allow this. If your not satisfied with your team players should absolutely by allowed to join another or start their own new team.
We obviously see the situation completely differently. This was basically Birdie wanting to run 2 teams, followed by a group brainstorm to do just that, but call it something else. Anyway, i'm done arguing about it. I think its a shame this league is allowing that to happen, but no one will change their minds, so whatever.
You really believe that once a player joins a DRTL team they should be stuck there for all eternity? If so, I guess we just disagree.
EDIT: Arca and Marine have both stated to me that they want to run their own team, and I believe said it in thread. I'm not in the habit off assuming that people that have never given me a reason to doubt them are liars, and that is why I have no qualms at all with the situation.
he hasn't expressed a view on that, he just thinks that birdie is behind it all and that anything else is birdie telling arca/marine to pretend to leave the team so he can control the new team
I don' t agree either with the decisions that have been made. However i do trust both Arca and Themarine as stand-up people. Sometimes, sometimes there is the execption that confirms the rules. The best thing to do is move on, and ask yourself what you can do to make this league better...
On July 30 2013 23:20 Sentenal wrote: Uhhh, Wala and Panda not getting in has nothing to do with it. Its pretty obvious what our complaint was, but if a CRTL cheater wants to think we are "dodging", more power to him.
Maybe I'm being a little daft, but unless the complaint is that there are alot of people that can hit C- playing in this league I'm missing your point. Obviously given my second and third posts in this topic it should be pretty clear what my position on C- players is. However, if I made anybody that has ever hit C- ineligible there goes half the players and we don't have a league at all. If it is specifically a complaint against TAKK, it's not without warrant and there is a reason why players like myself are considering not playing in S5.I do think it's worth nothing however that past DRTL precedent has been to allow in players from previous seasons that have hit C- but have not reached the skill to maintain said rank. This is the case for TAKK.
We aren't pulling out because Wala and Panda aren't getting in. This has nothing to do with anything regarding C- players. At all. I was responding to Babo, who was saying that was the reason. Our complaint is about the sB situation.
Ah okay.
I really wish I could do something that would work for both teams, but what you seem to be saying is something I can't go with.
sB is too big for all their players to get adequate playtime, so a few sB guys want to go and start a new team with themselves and free agents. Saying they can't do this is literally saying that no, once you have joined a DRTL team, even if it gets to big you have to stay there. Can't go and start your own new team. I couldn't disagree more.
If we had an issue of two sB teams being run by the same person, or god forbid an intertwined roster, yes that's an absolute, hard no way in hell. This is an issue of the marine and arca wanting to start their own team so they can get more playing time. Maybe we just disagree but in my mind it's totally crazy for me to say "No, you can't do this because you have already been on sB. Sorry" because the logic their is you have already been one DRTL team, and therefore you cannot start another. There is no reason I can think of to dis-allow this. If your not satisfied with your team players should absolutely by allowed to join another or start their own new team.
We obviously see the situation completely differently. This was basically Birdie wanting to run 2 teams, followed by a group brainstorm to do just that, but call it something else. Anyway, i'm done arguing about it. I think its a shame this league is allowing that to happen, but no one will change their minds, so whatever.
You really believe that once a player joins a DRTL team they should be stuck there for all eternity? If so, I guess we just disagree.
EDIT: Arca and Marine have both stated to me that they want to run their own team, and I believe said it in thread. I'm not in the habit off assuming that people that have never given me a reason to doubt them are liars, and that is why I have no qualms at all with the situation.
he hasn't expressed a view on that, he just thinks that birdie is behind it all and that anything else is birdie telling arca/marine to pretend to leave the team so he can control the new team
That's some conspiracy theory going there :O I am behind the team split, but I won't be behind arca and themarine. And given that both myself and them are pretty competitive, I think you'll find they want to win really badly
On July 30 2013 23:20 Sentenal wrote: Uhhh, Wala and Panda not getting in has nothing to do with it. Its pretty obvious what our complaint was, but if a CRTL cheater wants to think we are "dodging", more power to him.
Maybe I'm being a little daft, but unless the complaint is that there are alot of people that can hit C- playing in this league I'm missing your point. Obviously given my second and third posts in this topic it should be pretty clear what my position on C- players is. However, if I made anybody that has ever hit C- ineligible there goes half the players and we don't have a league at all. If it is specifically a complaint against TAKK, it's not without warrant and there is a reason why players like myself are considering not playing in S5.I do think it's worth nothing however that past DRTL precedent has been to allow in players from previous seasons that have hit C- but have not reached the skill to maintain said rank. This is the case for TAKK.
We aren't pulling out because Wala and Panda aren't getting in. This has nothing to do with anything regarding C- players. At all. I was responding to Babo, who was saying that was the reason. Our complaint is about the sB situation.
Ah okay.
I really wish I could do something that would work for both teams, but what you seem to be saying is something I can't go with.
sB is too big for all their players to get adequate playtime, so a few sB guys want to go and start a new team with themselves and free agents. Saying they can't do this is literally saying that no, once you have joined a DRTL team, even if it gets to big you have to stay there. Can't go and start your own new team. I couldn't disagree more.
If we had an issue of two sB teams being run by the same person, or god forbid an intertwined roster, yes that's an absolute, hard no way in hell. This is an issue of the marine and arca wanting to start their own team so they can get more playing time. Maybe we just disagree but in my mind it's totally crazy for me to say "No, you can't do this because you have already been on sB. Sorry" because the logic their is you have already been one DRTL team, and therefore you cannot start another. There is no reason I can think of to dis-allow this. If your not satisfied with your team players should absolutely by allowed to join another or start their own new team.
We obviously see the situation completely differently. This was basically Birdie wanting to run 2 teams, followed by a group brainstorm to do just that, but call it something else. Anyway, i'm done arguing about it. I think its a shame this league is allowing that to happen, but no one will change their minds, so whatever.
You really believe that once a player joins a DRTL team they should be stuck there for all eternity? If so, I guess we just disagree.
EDIT: Arca and Marine have both stated to me that they want to run their own team, and I believe said it in thread. I'm not in the habit off assuming that people that have never given me a reason to doubt them are liars, and that is why I have no qualms at all with the situation.
he hasn't expressed a view on that, he just thinks that birdie is behind it all and that anything else is birdie telling arca/marine to pretend to leave the team so he can control the new team
That's some conspiracy theory going there :O I am behind the team split, but I won't be behind arca and themarine. And given that both myself and them are pretty competitive, I think you'll find they want to win really badly
On July 30 2013 23:20 Sentenal wrote: Uhhh, Wala and Panda not getting in has nothing to do with it. Its pretty obvious what our complaint was, but if a CRTL cheater wants to think we are "dodging", more power to him.
Maybe I'm being a little daft, but unless the complaint is that there are alot of people that can hit C- playing in this league I'm missing your point. Obviously given my second and third posts in this topic it should be pretty clear what my position on C- players is. However, if I made anybody that has ever hit C- ineligible there goes half the players and we don't have a league at all. If it is specifically a complaint against TAKK, it's not without warrant and there is a reason why players like myself are considering not playing in S5.I do think it's worth nothing however that past DRTL precedent has been to allow in players from previous seasons that have hit C- but have not reached the skill to maintain said rank. This is the case for TAKK.
We aren't pulling out because Wala and Panda aren't getting in. This has nothing to do with anything regarding C- players. At all. I was responding to Babo, who was saying that was the reason. Our complaint is about the sB situation.
Ah okay.
I really wish I could do something that would work for both teams, but what you seem to be saying is something I can't go with.
sB is too big for all their players to get adequate playtime, so a few sB guys want to go and start a new team with themselves and free agents. Saying they can't do this is literally saying that no, once you have joined a DRTL team, even if it gets to big you have to stay there. Can't go and start your own new team. I couldn't disagree more.
If we had an issue of two sB teams being run by the same person, or god forbid an intertwined roster, yes that's an absolute, hard no way in hell. This is an issue of the marine and arca wanting to start their own team so they can get more playing time. Maybe we just disagree but in my mind it's totally crazy for me to say "No, you can't do this because you have already been on sB. Sorry" because the logic their is you have already been one DRTL team, and therefore you cannot start another. There is no reason I can think of to dis-allow this. If your not satisfied with your team players should absolutely by allowed to join another or start their own new team.
We obviously see the situation completely differently. This was basically Birdie wanting to run 2 teams, followed by a group brainstorm to do just that, but call it something else. Anyway, i'm done arguing about it. I think its a shame this league is allowing that to happen, but no one will change their minds, so whatever.
You really believe that once a player joins a DRTL team they should be stuck there for all eternity? If so, I guess we just disagree.
EDIT: Arca and Marine have both stated to me that they want to run their own team, and I believe said it in thread. I'm not in the habit off assuming that people that have never given me a reason to doubt them are liars, and that is why I have no qualms at all with the situation.
he hasn't expressed a view on that, he just thinks that birdie is behind it all and that anything else is birdie telling arca/marine to pretend to leave the team so he can control the new team
That's some conspiracy theory going there :O I am behind the team split, but I won't be behind arca and themarine. And given that both myself and them are pretty competitive, I think you'll find they want to win really badly
On July 30 2013 23:20 Sentenal wrote: Uhhh, Wala and Panda not getting in has nothing to do with it. Its pretty obvious what our complaint was, but if a CRTL cheater wants to think we are "dodging", more power to him.
Maybe I'm being a little daft, but unless the complaint is that there are alot of people that can hit C- playing in this league I'm missing your point. Obviously given my second and third posts in this topic it should be pretty clear what my position on C- players is. However, if I made anybody that has ever hit C- ineligible there goes half the players and we don't have a league at all. If it is specifically a complaint against TAKK, it's not without warrant and there is a reason why players like myself are considering not playing in S5.I do think it's worth nothing however that past DRTL precedent has been to allow in players from previous seasons that have hit C- but have not reached the skill to maintain said rank. This is the case for TAKK.
We aren't pulling out because Wala and Panda aren't getting in. This has nothing to do with anything regarding C- players. At all. I was responding to Babo, who was saying that was the reason. Our complaint is about the sB situation.
Ah okay.
I really wish I could do something that would work for both teams, but what you seem to be saying is something I can't go with.
sB is too big for all their players to get adequate playtime, so a few sB guys want to go and start a new team with themselves and free agents. Saying they can't do this is literally saying that no, once you have joined a DRTL team, even if it gets to big you have to stay there. Can't go and start your own new team. I couldn't disagree more.
If we had an issue of two sB teams being run by the same person, or god forbid an intertwined roster, yes that's an absolute, hard no way in hell. This is an issue of the marine and arca wanting to start their own team so they can get more playing time. Maybe we just disagree but in my mind it's totally crazy for me to say "No, you can't do this because you have already been on sB. Sorry" because the logic their is you have already been one DRTL team, and therefore you cannot start another. There is no reason I can think of to dis-allow this. If your not satisfied with your team players should absolutely by allowed to join another or start their own new team.
We obviously see the situation completely differently. This was basically Birdie wanting to run 2 teams, followed by a group brainstorm to do just that, but call it something else. Anyway, i'm done arguing about it. I think its a shame this league is allowing that to happen, but no one will change their minds, so whatever.
You really believe that once a player joins a DRTL team they should be stuck there for all eternity? If so, I guess we just disagree.
EDIT: Arca and Marine have both stated to me that they want to run their own team, and I believe said it in thread. I'm not in the habit off assuming that people that have never given me a reason to doubt them are liars, and that is why I have no qualms at all with the situation.
The problem is it was first brought up as "we have too many people, can we run 2 teams?" I think the response would be different if the first post was "some players decided to leave and make their own team." What is being planned has moved from the former to the latter but it feels like that's only for the sake of argument as the intent and reasoning has slowly changed to something more acceptable.
Also this has nothing to do with trust (or lack thereof) of Birdie or any of the sB players. It's a matter of setting a precedent, and some of us do not believe a league should allow this. Therefore, arguments about specific people being trustworthy aren't relevant to what we're trying to get at, and no one is questioning the integrity of any one.
Actually Kaze, it was first brought up as "I want to run two teams", which then turned into "Okay, how about I 'appoint' a captain for the other sB team", and then extra reasons/motivations started to be tacted on/fabricated as opposition surfaced. Eventually this led to Birdie thinking it was a good idea to get on our IRC for the purpose of mocking and taunting me over this.
On July 31 2013 08:56 Sentenal wrote: Actually Kaze, it was first brought up as "I want to run two teams", which then turned into "Okay, how about I 'appoint' a captain for the other sB team", and then extra reasons/motivations started to be tacted on/fabricated as opposition surfaced. Eventually this led to Birdie thinking it was a good idea to get on our IRC for the purpose of mocking and taunting me over this.
On July 31 2013 08:56 Sentenal wrote: Actually Kaze, it was first brought up as "I want to run two teams", which then turned into "Okay, how about I 'appoint' a captain for the other sB team", and then extra reasons/motivations started to be tacted on/fabricated as opposition surfaced. Eventually this led to Birdie thinking it was a good idea to get on our IRC for the purpose of mocking and taunting me over this.
Classy Birdie.
I didn't mock and taunt Sentenal on IRC, that's entirely unfounded.
I started by wanting to run two teams, but appoint two captains and just be a PR guy and keep the two captains working hard. Then I realized I wouldn't really be able to find two captains, and people brought up the problems of one person running two teams, so I changed to wanting one team I run and one team someone else runs. There's no "tacking on" or fabrication going on, it's just me changing my mind for exactly what I want, as some of the criticism of the two team idea is legitimate and I'm willing to change my stance on things when given good argumentation. Echo particularly gave some good points.
Most likely the team split is going to happen, we just need one more player to have the minimum for me to be happy with the split, and a couple more would be a nice couple of 7man teams which is a good number.
On July 31 2013 08:56 Sentenal wrote: Actually Kaze, it was first brought up as "I want to run two teams", which then turned into "Okay, how about I 'appoint' a captain for the other sB team", and then extra reasons/motivations started to be tacted on/fabricated as opposition surfaced. Eventually this led to Birdie thinking it was a good idea to get on our IRC for the purpose of mocking and taunting me over this.
Classy Birdie.
I didn't mock and taunt Sentenal on IRC, that's entirely unfounded.
I started by wanting to run two teams, but appoint two captains and just be a PR guy and keep the two captains working hard. Then I realized I wouldn't really be able to find two captains, and people brought up the problems of one person running two teams, so I changed to wanting one team I run and one team someone else runs. There's no "tacking on" or fabrication going on, it's just me changing my mind for exactly what I want, as some of the criticism of the two team idea is legitimate and I'm willing to change my stance on things when given good argumentation. Echo particularly gave some good points.
Most likely the team split is going to happen, we just need one more player to have the minimum for me to be happy with the split, and a couple more would be a nice couple of 7man teams which is a good number.
On June 07 2013 10:50 SynC[gm] wrote: Well, that was all quite a read. I come home from a last-day-of-school party and realize there were 3 new pages in this thread and 2 new PM's and thought to myself, "man, I'm pretty popular nowadays, eh?"
After some thought and reading arguments for each side, I'm hopeful that Lmaster will agree, or understand my "solution".
sGs.BaBo is effectively banned from future D-rank events for cheating via account sharing in CRTL with a B- ranked player. BaBo won't be playing versus rauk in the finals, SunKhan will have to find a replacement Protoss to play in his place. However, SunKhan WILL be playing in the playoffs, as the fact that the team legitimately beat TAKK in the semi-finals shouldn't be taken away from BaBo's wrongdoing. I hope neither side forfeits any of the sets because of one person's mistake.
I know what BaBo did had nothing to do with the D-rank events, but it is simply punishment. Even if BaBo was E, D, C, B, A, or S rank, the fact that he would do something like that he did shows that he is capable of doing it again, no matter how much remorse and regret he feels about doing it. I don't think BaBo should be criticized for hitting C, as he was already open to retiring from D-ranks anyway, and same with rauk, he wasn't going to argue that he had a "poor winrate" or anything like that, he was getting ready to move on as well.
On June 11 2013 06:46 L_Master wrote: Yea, sync's decision stands, as I do see both DRTL/CRTL as tied leagues, in the sense that they are skill cap leagues. Willingness to cheat in one calls into question ones integrity for the other. That integrity is critical to the league's functioning properly and equitably.
As such BaBo cannot play finals, and at least the next DRTL season (though he was already too high skill to continue).
BaBo...I am disappoint. While I believe you didnt cheat in DRTL, what you did was still pretty lame. I suppose this illustrates why its always best to stick to the straight and narrow. Eventually stuff comes out, aand now you've lost tons of face...which is unfortunate given that you have good, thought out decisions and a level head (even if you do like to troll).
On July 31 2013 13:59 Dazed_Spy wrote: Didnt you just say at the start of DRIT that you were leaving the d leagues because you considered yourself too good?
I think he is recruiting for Sun Khan out of team pride but not planning to play, which he would not be allowed to do.
On July 31 2013 22:57 Jealous wrote: It was pretty obvious sarcasm, take a breath people. I am a non-playing coach.
I don't think you should have anything to do with this league.
I don't think I care what you think. I don't think you should be allowed to reproduce, but that doesn't make me start shit on forums about it, does it?
On July 31 2013 22:57 Jealous wrote: It was pretty obvious sarcasm, take a breath people. I am a non-playing coach.
Are you going to coach your players about how to share accounts with b players? jw
Quote Nagisama: "I don't think BaBo needs B level smurfs to win D ranks..."
I'm not even playing and all of my players had absolutely nothing to do with the incident and have clean records, no reason to assume foul play. I'm just going to help them practice, give advice on line-ups, etc. Same as I did for the finals for last DRTL and during the season last. Just without playing ^^v Thanks for your support!
Make a motion for administrative decision. Pending this, I will not deny the team that played honestly throughout the entire league (and should bear no penalty as a result), the team that I honestly played for and supported through out the season, the opportunity to use me as a practice partner for the next season..
I would invite those people to check the replays, match hotkeys, check APMs, etc. If no rules are broken then people can say whatever they want, it doesn't change anything.
On August 01 2013 05:52 Jealous wrote: I would invite those people to check the replays, match hotkeys, check APMs, etc. If no rules are broken then people can say whatever they want, it doesn't change anything.
It would be best for Sun-khan if you stepped away. Pebble is better then your hate anyday.
On August 01 2013 02:51 Cpt.beefy wrote: Were are all the free agents?
Is stealth bunnies 2 taking everyone before a draft??
No we're not
We? You not stealth bunnies 2........ wtf are you lot playing at?
Drafts same as last year. Free agents sign up and we draft them out before the start of the season. Oh but thats right ppl were stealing players last year also, EXCEPT for me. Why do the rules exist if no-one is following them?
On August 01 2013 02:51 Cpt.beefy wrote: Were are all the free agents?
Is stealth bunnies 2 taking everyone before a draft??
No we're not
Your not making a very good case that SB2 is anything more than your puppet.
I'm recruiting for sB until we have around 14 players, then arca and themarine are taking half and forming their own team. Their team is basically complete but sB needs more players to make up the numbers now, we're not far off.
So your using draft players to fill sB, then your splitting that team in 2. Where as you recruited everyone into stealth bunnies but only half u will captain? Nope zero sense.
Arca n marine are captaining Half of sB? Thats wat happening? You think thats fine?
On August 01 2013 17:20 Cpt.beefy wrote: So your using draft players to fill sB, then your splitting that team in 2. Where as you recruited everyone into stealth bunnies but only half u will captain? Nope zero sense.
Arca n marine are captaining Half of sB? Thats wat happening? You think thats fine?
I'm not taking any free agent players (except RulZBoooM might have been a free agent), I'm talking to friends of mine which I've played with and practice partners and so on. The team was already too large for one team, so it's easier for me to recruit a couple more players and split it into two so everyone gets more game time and there's more teams in the league. This also lets Arca and TheMarine have the experience of running a team, which is both very fun and a good learning experience for all sorts of different skills. I think that's fine, yup. I won't be running the team they run. L_Master has said that as long as I'm not running the other team and the rosters are separate, it's fine, and I agree with him; I no longer want to run both teams, and separate rosters is of course necessary.
Birdie, i' m sorry to say your approach here is wrong. To recruite other player IS part of managing/running a team. If you are recruiting players for them, thats not a good start at all. As Lmaster said, running a team is okay if done by others. Running means also in my experience recruiting players. If you are recruiting the players, during the league these players will see you no matter what as some kind of reference. I saw the LOL posts, but lol is a different game, tuned in to a stream once didn' t understand anything remided me of warcraft 3 (which i believe it comes from). This situation is going to cause harm to the league. Mark my words. If you really want this to work, my advice is let Arca/marine deal with recruiting, let them decide which players your going to be splitting. Maybe you are doing things like this already, anyway sometimes it is best to do nothing at all and let others in order to make things happen in the best of ways.
About pre-recruit:
Sun Khan has drafted to our team omoy. Talks are on of drafting Nikon as well should he wish to join. Last season we did this somewhat as well.
In season 2, when there where TONS of new players, it would make sense, but here, i feel that new people need to be embraced asap. However we have not indeed followed the rules. We will not draft anyone new from now, until league sign-up is closed or rule is changed ( Maybe this rule should be discussed for change.)
On August 01 2013 20:56 pebble444 wrote: Birdie, i' m sorry to say your approach here is wrong. To recruite other player IS part of managing/running a team. If you are recruiting players for them, thats not a good start at all. As Lmaster said, running a team is okay if done by others. Running means also in my experience recruiting players. If you are recruiting the players, during the league these players will see you no matter what as some kind of reference. I saw the LOL posts, but lol is a different game, tuned in to a stream once didn' t understand anything remided me of warcraft 3 (which i believe it comes from). This situation is going to cause harm to the league. Mark my words. If you really want this to work, my advice is let Arca/marine deal with recruiting, let them decide which players your going to be splitting. Maybe you are doing things like this already, anyway sometimes it is best to do nothing at all and let others in order to make things happen in the best of ways.
As I said before, the team that Arca and TheMarine are going to run is already essentially complete; but for the split to go ahead, sB that I'm running needs a couple more players. If we can't find any more then the split won't happen. Right now Arca and TheMarine are not captains of any team, I'm captain of around 11 players. If I find 3 more people to join my team then I will request for Arca and TheMarine to leave along with 5 other players, to form their own team for the duration of this league. Then there will be their team and my team. Right now, there is only my team, and I am recruiting for them, and I am allowed to recruit as many as I want for them. I'm not recruiting them for Arca/Marine's team, I'm recruiting them for my team, Team Stealth Bunnies.
What's going to happen is a team SPLIT, not arca/marine leaving to form a new team per se. It'll be half of an old team forming a new team, not two players forming a new team. They will be their own team, don't get me wrong, they're running it not me (gl with that guys ;D). Until the team is split, I'm in charge.
On August 01 2013 02:51 Cpt.beefy wrote: Were are all the free agents?
Is stealth bunnies 2 taking everyone before a draft??
No we're not
We? You not stealth bunnies 2........ wtf are you lot playing at?
Drafts same as last year. Free agents sign up and we draft them out before the start of the season. Oh but thats right ppl were stealing players last year also, EXCEPT for me. Why do the rules exist if no-one is following them?
Please explain
On August 01 2013 20:56 pebble444 wrote: About pre-recruit:
Sun Khan has drafted to our team omoy. Talks are on of drafting Nikon as well should he wish to join. Last season we did this somewhat as well.
In season 2, when there where TONS of new players, it would make sense, but here, i feel that new people need to be embraced asap. However we have not indeed followed the rules. We will not draft anyone new from now, until league sign-up is closed or rule is changed ( Maybe this rule should be discussed for change.)
If you guys are truly dead set on this whole draft business, it should've been specified in the OP that new players should PM their applications to the admin instead of posting in the thread. Otherwise, it's far too easy to poach new players. The worst part is, this was an issue in prior seasons, and it'll continue to be an issue until something is actually done about it.
Seriously, the same problems happen season after season (walkover/postponement rampancy, the vague skill cutoff, etc), and they're never addressed.
On August 01 2013 02:51 Cpt.beefy wrote: Were are all the free agents?
Is stealth bunnies 2 taking everyone before a draft??
No we're not
We? You not stealth bunnies 2........ wtf are you lot playing at?
Drafts same as last year. Free agents sign up and we draft them out before the start of the season. Oh but thats right ppl were stealing players last year also, EXCEPT for me. Why do the rules exist if no-one is following them?
On August 01 2013 20:56 pebble444 wrote: About pre-recruit:
Sun Khan has drafted to our team omoy. Talks are on of drafting Nikon as well should he wish to join. Last season we did this somewhat as well.
In season 2, when there where TONS of new players, it would make sense, but here, i feel that new people need to be embraced asap. However we have not indeed followed the rules. We will not draft anyone new from now, until league sign-up is closed or rule is changed ( Maybe this rule should be discussed for change.)
If you guys are truly dead set on this whole draft business, it should've been specified in the OP that new players should PM their applications to the admin instead of posting in the thread. Otherwise, it's far too easy to poach new players. The worst part is, this was an issue in prior seasons, and it'll continue to be an issue until something is actually done about it.
Seriously, the same problems happen season after season (walkover/postponement rampancy, the vague skill cutoff, etc), and they're never addressed.
they're never addressed because the amount of people who want to play is small and people will ragequit if they actually are
On August 01 2013 20:56 pebble444 wrote: Birdie, i' m sorry to say your approach here is wrong. To recruite other player IS part of managing/running a team. If you are recruiting players for them, thats not a good start at all. As Lmaster said, running a team is okay if done by others. Running means also in my experience recruiting players. If you are recruiting the players, during the league these players will see you no matter what as some kind of reference. I saw the LOL posts, but lol is a different game, tuned in to a stream once didn' t understand anything remided me of warcraft 3 (which i believe it comes from). This situation is going to cause harm to the league. Mark my words. If you really want this to work, my advice is let Arca/marine deal with recruiting, let them decide which players your going to be splitting. Maybe you are doing things like this already, anyway sometimes it is best to do nothing at all and let others in order to make things happen in the best of ways.
As I said before, the team that Arca and TheMarine are going to run is already essentially complete; but for the split to go ahead, sB that I'm running needs a couple more players. If we can't find any more then the split won't happen. Right now Arca and TheMarine are not captains of any team, I'm captain of around 11 players. If I find 3 more people to join my team then I will request for Arca and TheMarine to leave along with 5 other players, to form their own team for the duration of this league. Then there will be their team and my team. Right now, there is only my team, and I am recruiting for them, and I am allowed to recruit as many as I want for them. I'm not recruiting them for Arca/Marine's team, I'm recruiting them for my team, Team Stealth Bunnies.
What's going to happen is a team SPLIT, not arca/marine leaving to form a new team per se. It'll be half of an old team forming a new team, not two players forming a new team. They will be their own team, don't get me wrong, they're running it not me (gl with that guys ;D). Until the team is split, I'm in charge.
Let me get this straight.
You're recruiting players for the express purpose of giving those players to another team, whose captains you are appointing.
If you were a single team, faithfully pursuing its own affairs, the scenario would be: "Well, we have a full roster. There's no point in recruiting more because our roster is more than complete. All of you might not get play time, so if you wanna leave/form your own team/look for another team that's fine."
Instead you have a direct hand in the inception and organization (recruiting manpower and appointing leadership) of another team, and try to play it off as an organic, naturally occurring split? You're telling us plain as day that this is all part of your plan, and you expect us to think, "Oh he somehow came by way too many players for his team that already has a full roster, when every other team in the league is struggling to complete their roster or have any players left to draft."
I don't think you're trying to be abusive, but I hope I've illustrated how unfair your proposition could appear to the other remaining teams.
Despa is probably on the bare minimum amount of players to compete this time around, but if we can get Miss.Click, and tonight, and if Draw takes me up on my bet if I win captains tourny he would coach Despa, there could be some balance.
On August 01 2013 20:56 pebble444 wrote: Birdie, i' m sorry to say your approach here is wrong. To recruite other player IS part of managing/running a team. If you are recruiting players for them, thats not a good start at all. As Lmaster said, running a team is okay if done by others. Running means also in my experience recruiting players. If you are recruiting the players, during the league these players will see you no matter what as some kind of reference. I saw the LOL posts, but lol is a different game, tuned in to a stream once didn' t understand anything remided me of warcraft 3 (which i believe it comes from). This situation is going to cause harm to the league. Mark my words. If you really want this to work, my advice is let Arca/marine deal with recruiting, let them decide which players your going to be splitting. Maybe you are doing things like this already, anyway sometimes it is best to do nothing at all and let others in order to make things happen in the best of ways.
As I said before, the team that Arca and TheMarine are going to run is already essentially complete; but for the split to go ahead, sB that I'm running needs a couple more players. If we can't find any more then the split won't happen. Right now Arca and TheMarine are not captains of any team, I'm captain of around 11 players. If I find 3 more people to join my team then I will request for Arca and TheMarine to leave along with 5 other players, to form their own team for the duration of this league. Then there will be their team and my team. Right now, there is only my team, and I am recruiting for them, and I am allowed to recruit as many as I want for them. I'm not recruiting them for Arca/Marine's team, I'm recruiting them for my team, Team Stealth Bunnies.
What's going to happen is a team SPLIT, not arca/marine leaving to form a new team per se. It'll be half of an old team forming a new team, not two players forming a new team. They will be their own team, don't get me wrong, they're running it not me (gl with that guys ;D). Until the team is split, I'm in charge.
Let me get this straight.
You're recruiting players for the express purpose of giving those players to another team, whose captains you are appointing.
If you were a single team, faithfully pursuing its own affairs, the scenario would be: "Well, we have a full roster. There's no point in recruiting more because our roster is more than complete. All of you might not get play time, so if you wanna leave/form your own team/look for another team that's fine."
Instead you have a direct hand in the inception and organization (recruiting manpower and appointing leadership) of another team, and try to play it off as an organic, naturally occurring split? You're telling us plain as day that this is all part of your plan, and you expect us to think, "Oh he somehow came by way too many players for his team that already has a full roster, when every other team in the league is struggling to complete their roster or have any players left to draft."
I don't think you're trying to be abusive, but I hope I've illustrated how unfair your proposition could appear to the other remaining teams.
No, the new players I'm recruiting from now on are going to Team Stealth Bunnies, not to whatever team Arca/Marine create. I don't know how you think an organic, naturally occurring split would happen otherwise. I didn't appoint Arca and Marine, I asked several members of the team if they would be willing to separate with some of the players to create a new team, and Arca and Marine responded. Sure I have a hand in the split, but just because it's a controlled split doesn't mean it's bad in some way.
On August 01 2013 20:56 pebble444 wrote: Birdie, i' m sorry to say your approach here is wrong. To recruite other player IS part of managing/running a team. If you are recruiting players for them, thats not a good start at all. As Lmaster said, running a team is okay if done by others. Running means also in my experience recruiting players. If you are recruiting the players, during the league these players will see you no matter what as some kind of reference. I saw the LOL posts, but lol is a different game, tuned in to a stream once didn' t understand anything remided me of warcraft 3 (which i believe it comes from). This situation is going to cause harm to the league. Mark my words. If you really want this to work, my advice is let Arca/marine deal with recruiting, let them decide which players your going to be splitting. Maybe you are doing things like this already, anyway sometimes it is best to do nothing at all and let others in order to make things happen in the best of ways.
As I said before, the team that Arca and TheMarine are going to run is already essentially complete; but for the split to go ahead, sB that I'm running needs a couple more players. If we can't find any more then the split won't happen. Right now Arca and TheMarine are not captains of any team, I'm captain of around 11 players. If I find 3 more people to join my team then I will request for Arca and TheMarine to leave along with 5 other players, to form their own team for the duration of this league. Then there will be their team and my team. Right now, there is only my team, and I am recruiting for them, and I am allowed to recruit as many as I want for them. I'm not recruiting them for Arca/Marine's team, I'm recruiting them for my team, Team Stealth Bunnies.
What's going to happen is a team SPLIT, not arca/marine leaving to form a new team per se. It'll be half of an old team forming a new team, not two players forming a new team. They will be their own team, don't get me wrong, they're running it not me (gl with that guys ;D). Until the team is split, I'm in charge.
Let me get this straight.
You're recruiting players for the express purpose of giving those players to another team, whose captains you are appointing.
If you were a single team, faithfully pursuing its own affairs, the scenario would be: "Well, we have a full roster. There's no point in recruiting more because our roster is more than complete. All of you might not get play time, so if you wanna leave/form your own team/look for another team that's fine."
Instead you have a direct hand in the inception and organization (recruiting manpower and appointing leadership) of another team, and try to play it off as an organic, naturally occurring split? You're telling us plain as day that this is all part of your plan, and you expect us to think, "Oh he somehow came by way too many players for his team that already has a full roster, when every other team in the league is struggling to complete their roster or have any players left to draft."
I don't think you're trying to be abusive, but I hope I've illustrated how unfair your proposition could appear to the other remaining teams.
No, the new players I'm recruiting from now on are going to Team Stealth Bunnies, not to whatever team Arca/Marine create. I don't know how you think an organic, naturally occurring split would happen otherwise. I didn't appoint Arca and Marine, I asked several members of the team if they would be willing to separate with some of the players to create a new team, and Arca and Marine responded. Sure I have a hand in the split, but just because it's a controlled split doesn't mean it's bad in some way.
They're still being recruited under the assumption that your 2-team plan is undermanned. If you didn't project the creation of another team, your current roster would be more than sufficient.
To give an example of a natural split: At the end of DRTL1, GaoXi and I decided we wanted to play on our own team. We talked to absolutely no one on our original team, requested none of their players, and simply left and independently recruited people to form Team Courage.
Anyways I just wanted to make the situation clear.
Give DeSPA arca and themarine oh benevolent one! They can ACTUALLY be in a different team with players you didn't sign-on cos of skill or association. Was losing that bad that you have too create this plan b too help? Theres no garanutee the team will even last the season. At least with despa were closeknit and FOCUSED enough not too disband, noshow or worse cheat(leak lineups..etc). All i really see is greedy captain birdie not sharing the new talent with his league-mates cos of what? Huh?
Fuck..... 3 more players my ass...... 11 is plenty for a team. 7 is barely one. Think.
On August 02 2013 06:58 Sentenal wrote: Why are you people even bothering, its already obvious what hes doing, and its also obvious that the powers that be don't give a shit.
If you actually think Birdie is trying to create and make another team for the express purpose of rigging it so he can pick up an extra win or two in a D Ranks League that has no prize whatsoever you are absolutely out of your mind and overdosing on conspiracy theories. Not to mention I play in this league, on a DIFFERENT team than sB.
Guys, this a fucking D Ranks league. It that exists for the purpose of having fun, giving players an incentive to improve, and to provide a place to get a little experience playing under pressure and in the limelight. The fact that we are even discussing something as off the wall absurd as a captain trying to cheat in such an indirect way as making a new team for some free wins is beyond retarded. Ignoring the fact that I would confidently lay down 10k on the fact that Birdie has zero intentions of cheating, I will go one step further and say EVEN if he was doing this expressly to cheat it really doesn't matter.
Who. Gives. A. Flying. Fuck.
Just practice and beat their ass. Jury rigging can't help you win the finals.
Beating them isn't the issue. You yourself seemed to think a single person running two teams was an "absolute, hard no way in hell." But apparently, now "who gives a flying fuck if thats true". Well, we actually have standards and principles as to what rules are conductive for fair competitive play that we stand on, and DRTL no longer meets them. But thanks for calling me retarded and out of my mind. That is very professional for a league administrator. I hope you enjoy your league.
On August 02 2013 03:06 art_of_turtle wrote: Despa is probably on the bare minimum amount of players to compete this time around, but if we can get Miss.Click, and tonight, and if Draw takes me up on my bet if I win captains tourny he would coach Despa, there could be some balance.
I doubt Click will just walk away from TAKK to join rejoin DeSPA O.o It might be more noble of her to join a team with lesser players, but it's her team and no reason except for nobility to walk away.
On August 02 2013 06:58 Sentenal wrote: Why are you people even bothering, its already obvious what hes doing, and its also obvious that the powers that be don't give a shit.
If you actually think Birdie is trying to create and make another team for the express purpose of rigging it so he can pick up an extra win or two in a D Ranks League that has no prize whatsoever you are absolutely out of your mind and overdosing on conspiracy theories. Not to mention I play in this league, on a DIFFERENT team than sB.
Guys, this a fucking D Ranks league. It that exists for the purpose of having fun, giving players an incentive to improve, and to provide a place to get a little experience playing under pressure and in the limelight. The fact that we are even discussing something as off the wall absurd as a captain trying to cheat in such an indirect way as making a new team for some free wins is beyond retarded. Ignoring the fact that I would confidently lay down 10k on the fact that Birdie has zero intentions of cheating, I will go one step further and say EVEN if he was doing this expressly to cheat it really doesn't matter.
Who. Gives. A. Flying. Fuck.
Just practice and beat their ass. Jury rigging can't help you win the finals.
Eh, this logic can always be interpreted different ways... One way is the way you see it, there's no prize for winning other than bragging rights so just shut up and play. But another way is yes, there's no prize for winning, so why play at all and/or make any effort to make the league legitimately organized if one can simply just play amongst their friends?
In my opinion, I think the ideal choice would be to yes, make the split, but if Echo/Sentenal will be okay with the fact that Birdie will absolutely take no part in the split team in drafts, lineups, etc, that Courage will play in DRTL. I'm not saying this to insult Birdie's trust or say Courage should absolutely play, but we should end up with a compromise so that everyone can play. From Courage's point of view, if Stealth Bunnies do have 11 players and don't draft anymore, there will be several players that will only be able to play about 1-3 times the entire season, if every player is rotated, so the split should be understandable. From Stealth Bunnies/Birdie's point of view, Courage, and other teams/players, it can only be natural that the people might expect some type of cheating/foul play over those that they don't really know personally well.
I just think a compromise can always be in order to have everyone play. Again, I'm not bashing on Birdie for purposely doing this to piss off Courage or bashing on Courage on being too sensitive about the situation, I just think it's best to see this from both point of views and make a solution instead of arguing whether or not this person is right or wrong.
Why cant we just move ahead with our possibly paranoid suspicions [I have them as well] and do our best to ascertain whether games are being thrown as the season goes ahead? Its possible games can be thrown even before this, we always sort of tacitly have to rely on not only the honour of the players involved, but the potential for random observers to analyze and spot gamethrowing when it does occur.
D rank players make mistakes that would be incredibly obvious throws on their own though.... How to tell difference if someone forgot to make scvs or rally them?
On August 02 2013 10:34 rauk wrote: D rank players make mistakes that would be incredibly obvious throws on their own though.... How to tell difference if someone forgot to make scvs or rally them?
Exactly, as evidenced by Kai/gorg's game in DRIT, players throw games in hilarious fashion half the time. Also, see Arca vs nagisama in Game 5. Huge economic/army lead all thrown away, highlighted by the sexy double EMP whiff.
No one on the other team will have a reason to cheat other than Birdie asking them to. The new recruits do not know Birdie; why would they decide to lose so that he can win? The only cheating which could take place seems to be Arca/TheMarine throwing their games or sharing lineups with Birdie, which they have no incentive to do. Arca and Marine are not going to cheat so that they can lose.
On August 02 2013 08:58 Sentenal wrote: But apparently, now "who gives a flying fuck if thats true".
That was posted with minimal thought and in agitation. It was a dumb statement.
On August 02 2013 08:58 Sentenal wrote: Beating them isn't the issue. You yourself seemed to think a single person running two teams was an "absolute, hard no way in hell." But apparently, now "who gives a flying fuck if thats true". Well, we actually have standards and principles as to what rules are conductive for fair competitive play that we stand on, and DRTL no longer meets them. But thanks for calling me retarded and out of my mind. That is very professional for a league administrator. I hope you enjoy your league.
First, I did not call you retarded. I do think you are being ridiculous in this situation, but just because I think you are being unreasonable in this situation does not, by extension, mean that I think that you are ridiculous/dumb/retarded or any other negative adjective overall. Whenever I talk to you, I always feel like I have to tip-toe very heavily or sugarcoat what I am saying to avoid offending you, as to me it seems you find insult very easily in things that are said.
Let me offer you two explanations:
A)sB has 11 players, and some of them would like more play time. Birdie, being their friend/teammate, wants to help out and so offers to captain a team. Most players in DRTL don't like this idea, and as such Birdie decides the best resolution is to have separate teams/roster/captain. However, he is still friends with the guys that are going to split off, and thus is happy to spend some helping his buddies find players, a perfectly normal reaction B)Birdie decides he wants to cheat (despite ZERO evidence to indicate he would do so). He decides the best way to cheat would be to split his squad into two (with some of his better players going to the new squad?), so that the "B" squad can throw some of the games vs the A squad, to help the A squad make the playoffs.
You really think option B is more a realistic possibility than option A? I just don't understand how you are coming to that conclusion and would ask:
1) What evidence do you have to think Birdie would cheat? 2) If cheating were his goal, why would he put several of sB's key players on his B squad dividing the talent in two? 3) The majority (5+) of the players on the so called "sB B" would be new recruits with no previous association with Birdie. Why would they have any interest in conspiring to such cheating?
That is very professional for a league administrator. I hope you enjoy your league.
I'm fairly professional, and quite reasonable, in how I conduct this league. I'm not sure you would find many who disagree. That said, I'm pretty tired of lame drama. It ruins leagues, ruins the community, and is generally cancerous, unpleasant, and a pain in the ass. I put a significant amount of time and effort into these leagues, and don't really have much patience for drama. Reasonable discussion is one thing, but we do not have that here. We have unfounded accusations.
Occam's Razor, and common sense, give no reason to indicate that Birdie is trying to cheat. Until someone gives me a reasonable argument, essentially consisting of answers to the three questions I posed earlier I don't really want to hear any more of the issue because all we have so far is "we think Birdie is trying to cheat".
On July 30 2013 23:20 Sentenal wrote: Uhhh, Wala and Panda not getting in has nothing to do with it. Its pretty obvious what our complaint was, but if a CRTL cheater wants to think we are "dodging", more power to him.
Maybe I'm being a little daft, but unless the complaint is that there are alot of people that can hit C- playing in this league I'm missing your point. Obviously given my second and third posts in this topic it should be pretty clear what my position on C- players is. However, if I made anybody that has ever hit C- ineligible there goes half the players and we don't have a league at all. If it is specifically a complaint against TAKK, it's not without warrant and there is a reason why players like myself are considering not playing in S5.I do think it's worth nothing however that past DRTL precedent has been to allow in players from previous seasons that have hit C- but have not reached the skill to maintain said rank. This is the case for TAKK.
We aren't pulling out because Wala and Panda aren't getting in. This has nothing to do with anything regarding C- players. At all. I was responding to Babo, who was saying that was the reason. Our complaint is about the sB situation.
Stop being butthurt for 1 minute and listen.Arca/Me are going to captain the other team seperatly without birdie's guidance/commands/help. Jesus Christ,i'd have an easier time winning an argument against a brick wall than winning it against you.
I have it there from marine, and I also have Birdie personally telling me the same thing. That is, this new team is NOT sB "B" being run by Birdie. It's a new team, with primarily new recruits, run by different people.
Birdie, nor Arca/Marine, have given me ANY reason whatsoever to think I should doubt their word. They have never shown a hint of being untrustworthy.
I'll also put this one more way. If I ruled against players from sB being allowed to split off and start a new team with a new roster, I would be setting a precedent I think is very bad, and it is this:
RP (Random Player) joins a team he is recruited into. His captain goes gung-ho on recruiting and the team becomes too big. RP decides it sucks that he doesn't get to play anymore and wants to start his own team. By ruling against the new team started by sB players, I'm saying that players can never leave their own team. As such RP is now perma-fucked by association with the team he initially joined.
And eh, like I said, I think it's pointless now to even bother arguing whether this is right or that is right. Either we go with the one we got right now, or we set a compromise to let everyone play.
But as I wanna say again, really, Birdie's goal to field more D-/D players couldn't be any more bullshit than what it is. During DRTL 4, him and TheMarine played 7 out of 8 weeks during the DRTL 4 season. icedraco and Arca played more than any other player except for the two the played 7 times, two players who are in the D+/C- range. Yes, he didn't play 3 players out of his 12-man roster, so what's to say he won't have inactives again this season, even with his supposed 11 going on 14?
If his 14 is split in two, it goes to 7 (Right? Because 14 divided by 2 is 7). However, even with more than 7 players, several teams had a hard time getting their games in on time or not getting it in at all. What would we do in the situation where Stealth Bunnies A team starts to have more than two players go inactive? Simply give more players to Stealth Bunnies A because they decided to split for the good of the league? That would just monopolize the free agents to Stealth Bunnies, leaving no other players for smaller teams.
Birdie had 12 players, yet fielded 9 last DRTL. I'm pretty sure if his players had legitimate complaints about not playing, he would've fielded himself and TheMarine lesser amount of times and fielded others instead. Birdie says he has 11 players... How different is that from his 12-man roster? Only one difference.
I dunno, now that I see it, unless you have a total of 20 players and planning on dividing 10 each, I don't see a good way of splitting up your team in a way where you can absolutely minimize the chances of walkovers/games not being played. I'm not against or for the split, I'm just saying lets actually think about it before going headfirst and setting up a ton of postponements and making a mess like last DRTL.
On August 02 2013 16:51 pebble444 wrote: QUESTIONS NEED THAT NEED TO BE ADRESSED PLEASE!!
- what about this draft situation? when will official draft take place?
-So the format is lineup 4 playersa/maps + decide ace player on the spot if necessary correct?
I will address all of these in a post on the 5th. Right now, I'm still trying to figure out the best decision for the whole multi-team situation of terror, which certainly seems to be our elephant in the room.
I think the question boils down to: can a captain of a team (or anyone on the team) recruit/invite/bring in his "friends" to his team directly?, or does anyone who is new to the league have to be placed on the draft board and go through the draft to be placed on a team?
Free agents signing up. Need to be D/D+ level. State there race/mu's. Be available too practice and play on time.communicate with league/team on pp's and IGNORE any and ALL approaches by birdie or any team captain to join before the draft raffle takes place.
Patience, commitment, honesty and FOCUS! Thats all i want for season 5.
More free agentsss
(Im done with the sb bs for now, we can judge that afyer week 5 or so).
On August 02 2013 18:04 don_kyuhote wrote: I think the question boils down to: can a captain of a team (or anyone on the team) recruit/invite/bring in his "friends" to his team directly?, or does anyone who is new to the league have to be placed on the draft board and go through the draft to be placed on a team?
I don't think anyone has a problem with teams adding friends to their roster, or at least doing private recruiting. The problem is when people new to the league sign up as free agents and then teams have habitually contacted them privately to recruit them instead of waiting for the draft time. It completely undermines the point of having a draft.
On August 02 2013 18:04 don_kyuhote wrote: I think the question boils down to: can a captain of a team (or anyone on the team) recruit/invite/bring in his "friends" to his team directly?, or does anyone who is new to the league have to be placed on the draft board and go through the draft to be placed on a team?
I don't think anyone has a problem with teams adding friends to their roster, or at least doing private recruiting. The problem is when people new to the league sign up as free agents and then teams have habitually contacted them privately to recruit them instead of waiting for the draft time. It completely undermines the point of having a draft.
Yea, that doesn't work. If you signed up here as a free agent, you're going to be in the draft pool. That's always been the underlying concept, and as Kaze said totally defeats the point of a draft.
On August 02 2013 18:04 don_kyuhote wrote: I think the question boils down to: can a captain of a team (or anyone on the team) recruit/invite/bring in his "friends" to his team directly?, or does anyone who is new to the league have to be placed on the draft board and go through the draft to be placed on a team?
I don't think anyone has a problem with teams adding friends to their roster, or at least doing private recruiting. The problem is when people new to the league sign up as free agents and then teams have habitually contacted them privately to recruit them instead of waiting for the draft time. It completely undermines the point of having a draft.
Yea, that doesn't work. If you signed up here as a free agent, you're going to be in the draft pool. That's always been the underlying concept, and as Kaze said totally defeats the point of a draft.
I didn't realize that, it should probably be made explicit in the rules. First season sB was basically all free agents that I asked if they wanted to form a team with me. I was under the impression that the draft was for those who hadn't found teams by the draft time.
On August 02 2013 18:04 don_kyuhote wrote: I think the question boils down to: can a captain of a team (or anyone on the team) recruit/invite/bring in his "friends" to his team directly?, or does anyone who is new to the league have to be placed on the draft board and go through the draft to be placed on a team?
I don't think anyone has a problem with teams adding friends to their roster, or at least doing private recruiting. The problem is when people new to the league sign up as free agents and then teams have habitually contacted them privately to recruit them instead of waiting for the draft time. It completely undermines the point of having a draft.
Yea, that doesn't work. If you signed up here as a free agent, you're going to be in the draft pool. That's always been the underlying concept, and as Kaze said totally defeats the point of a draft.
So I went through the thread and here are the list of "official" free agents so far (people who posted here with proper format of rank/name/race) Hopefully I didn't miss any
1. jjwhg 2. lightson (contacted by Sun Khan and joined Sun Khan) 3. AcE_ 4. Magreidis 5. BigFan 6. Nikon 7. LTY 8. austriavienna
I don't know if the other 7 have been contacted by any teams, but Sun Khan should "return" lightson back to the draft board?
On August 02 2013 18:04 don_kyuhote wrote: I think the question boils down to: can a captain of a team (or anyone on the team) recruit/invite/bring in his "friends" to his team directly?, or does anyone who is new to the league have to be placed on the draft board and go through the draft to be placed on a team?
I don't think anyone has a problem with teams adding friends to their roster, or at least doing private recruiting. The problem is when people new to the league sign up as free agents and then teams have habitually contacted them privately to recruit them instead of waiting for the draft time. It completely undermines the point of having a draft.
Yea, that doesn't work. If you signed up here as a free agent, you're going to be in the draft pool. That's always been the underlying concept, and as Kaze said totally defeats the point of a draft.
So I went through the thread and here are the list of "official" free agents so far (people who posted here with proper format of rank/name/race) Hopefully I didn't miss any
1. jjwhg 2. lightson (contacted by Sun Khan and joined Sun Khan) 3. AcE_ 4. Magreidis 5. BigFan 6. Nikon 7. LTY 8. austriavienna
I don't know if the other 7 have been contacted by any teams, but Sun Khan should "return" lightson back to the draft board?
I've been picked up by a team, but it's really just in name only -- we haven't started practising or anything like that yet. I think it's probably most fair to put me back in the draft pool, as this pretty much ruins the whole point of a draft. Sorry!
On August 02 2013 18:04 don_kyuhote wrote: I think the question boils down to: can a captain of a team (or anyone on the team) recruit/invite/bring in his "friends" to his team directly?, or does anyone who is new to the league have to be placed on the draft board and go through the draft to be placed on a team?
I don't think anyone has a problem with teams adding friends to their roster, or at least doing private recruiting. The problem is when people new to the league sign up as free agents and then teams have habitually contacted them privately to recruit them instead of waiting for the draft time. It completely undermines the point of having a draft.
Yea, that doesn't work. If you signed up here as a free agent, you're going to be in the draft pool. That's always been the underlying concept, and as Kaze said totally defeats the point of a draft.
So I went through the thread and here are the list of "official" free agents so far (people who posted here with proper format of rank/name/race) Hopefully I didn't miss any
1. jjwhg 2. lightson (contacted by Sun Khan and joined Sun Khan) 3. AcE_ 4. Magreidis 5. BigFan 6. Nikon 7. LTY 8. austriavienna
I don't know if the other 7 have been contacted by any teams, but Sun Khan should "return" lightson back to the draft board?
I'm kinda on the fence lol. I was already contacted but still not 100% sure if I'm going to go with a team or just pass till the next season or not >< Keep me in the draft please because I'm still mulling it over XD
On August 02 2013 18:04 don_kyuhote wrote: I think the question boils down to: can a captain of a team (or anyone on the team) recruit/invite/bring in his "friends" to his team directly?, or does anyone who is new to the league have to be placed on the draft board and go through the draft to be placed on a team?
I don't think anyone has a problem with teams adding friends to their roster, or at least doing private recruiting. The problem is when people new to the league sign up as free agents and then teams have habitually contacted them privately to recruit them instead of waiting for the draft time. It completely undermines the point of having a draft.
Yea, that doesn't work. If you signed up here as a free agent, you're going to be in the draft pool. That's always been the underlying concept, and as Kaze said totally defeats the point of a draft.
So I went through the thread and here are the list of "official" free agents so far (people who posted here with proper format of rank/name/race) Hopefully I didn't miss any
1. jjwhg 2. lightson (contacted by Sun Khan and joined Sun Khan) 3. AcE_ 4. Magreidis 5. BigFan 6. Nikon 7. LTY 8. austriavienna
I don't know if the other 7 have been contacted by any teams, but Sun Khan should "return" lightson back to the draft board?
I'm kinda on the fence lol. I was already contacted but still not 100% sure if I'm going to go with a team or just pass till the next season or not >< Keep me in the draft please because I'm still mulling it over XD
Your either in or not. If your unsure take your name off the list. Who contacted you?
found myself playing recently and(shocker) having fun. I'd like to be a free agent this time around Rank: D (D+ max as protoss a long time ago) Iccup name: Minsc_andBoo Race: Terran
Draft will take place starting this Friday the 9th just so people are aware. Captains, if I don't already have you add me on skype so I can get you in the captains group for drafting (luciditymasters = my skype id)
On August 02 2013 19:16 austriavienna wrote: i would like to play Rank D ICCUP ACCOUNT : kkyun25 race terran
On August 04 2013 12:11 master_soul wrote: me gustaría jugar Rango D iCCup CUENTA:master_soul raza terran
I dunno if it's just me, but I'm pretty sure these two posters are the same person. They both have only 1 post, and both just happen to identify themselves the same way.
"i would like to play" vs "me gustaria jugar"
Rank D vs Rango D
iCCup ACCOUNT: kkyun25 vs iCCup CUENTA:master_soul
race terran vs raza terran
Safe bet to leave austriavienna and master_soul out of the draft.
On August 02 2013 18:04 don_kyuhote wrote: I think the question boils down to: can a captain of a team (or anyone on the team) recruit/invite/bring in his "friends" to his team directly?, or does anyone who is new to the league have to be placed on the draft board and go through the draft to be placed on a team?
I don't think anyone has a problem with teams adding friends to their roster, or at least doing private recruiting. The problem is when people new to the league sign up as free agents and then teams have habitually contacted them privately to recruit them instead of waiting for the draft time. It completely undermines the point of having a draft.
Yea, that doesn't work. If you signed up here as a free agent, you're going to be in the draft pool. That's always been the underlying concept, and as Kaze said totally defeats the point of a draft.
So I went through the thread and here are the list of "official" free agents so far (people who posted here with proper format of rank/name/race) Hopefully I didn't miss any
1. jjwhg 2. lightson (contacted by Sun Khan and joined Sun Khan) 3. AcE_ 4. Magreidis 5. BigFan 6. Nikon 7. LTY 8. austriavienna
I don't know if the other 7 have been contacted by any teams, but Sun Khan should "return" lightson back to the draft board?
I'm kinda on the fence lol. I was already contacted but still not 100% sure if I'm going to go with a team or just pass till the next season or not >< Keep me in the draft please because I'm still mulling it over XD
Your either in or not. If your unsure take your name off the list. Who contacted you?
The reason I'm unsure is because my schedule gets really hectic around midterm and exam times so around those periods of time, I don't play any games because I'm too busy to do so. In terms of how this relates to this team league, it really depends on the team and how strict they are etc... I wanted to be left in to see if the team I land in allows me to take a hiatus during my really busy times to study, then I'm good to stay otherwise I'll be passing for this season. Either way, not like we have 6 players for 6 teams but rather 9 including me so 3 teams will have 2 players from the draft so if I have to leave, it won't change much.
edit: oops, forgot about the team part. I was actually contacted by several teams before you guys decided that a draft should be done so no point in just listing team names here
On August 04 2013 12:11 master_soul wrote: me gustaría jugar Rango D iCCup CUENTA:master_soul raza terran
I dunno if it's just me, but I'm pretty sure these two posters are the same person. They both have only 1 post, and both just happen to identify themselves the same way.
On August 04 2013 12:11 master_soul wrote: me gustaría jugar Rango D iCCup CUENTA:master_soul raza terran
I dunno if it's just me, but I'm pretty sure these two posters are the same person. They both have only 1 post, and both just happen to identify themselves the same way.
Actually, I do need confirmation that this master soul guy can speak English, which he probably can given that he posted in the correct format, but if he can't speak English to communicate with his teammates and competitors that won't work.
On August 02 2013 19:16 austriavienna wrote: i would like to play Rank D ICCUP ACCOUNT : kkyun25 race terran
On August 04 2013 12:11 master_soul wrote: me gustaría jugar Rango D iCCup CUENTA:master_soul raza terran
I dunno if it's just me, but I'm pretty sure these two posters are the same person. They both have only 1 post, and both just happen to identify themselves the same way.
"i would like to play" vs "me gustaria jugar"
Rank D vs Rango D
iCCup ACCOUNT: kkyun25 vs iCCup CUENTA:master_soul
race terran vs raza terran
Safe bet to leave austriavienna and master_soul out of the draft.
On August 02 2013 19:16 austriavienna wrote: i would like to play Rank D ICCUP ACCOUNT : kkyun25 race terran
On August 04 2013 12:11 master_soul wrote: me gustaría jugar Rango D iCCup CUENTA:master_soul raza terran
I dunno if it's just me, but I'm pretty sure these two posters are the same person. They both have only 1 post, and both just happen to identify themselves the same way.
"i would like to play" vs "me gustaria jugar"
Rank D vs Rango D
iCCup ACCOUNT: kkyun25 vs iCCup CUENTA:master_soul
race terran vs raza terran
Safe bet to leave austriavienna and master_soul out of the draft.
check their ips on iccup to confirm this
IP dont match and by far
then it's not the same people. Let them play people. However, does the mexican guy speak any english at all?
I talked to NewJetCity yesterday and it seems that he wants to participate again this season. I will have to confirm with him one more time, but it's pretty certain that this is the decision.
Maybe for the sake of mixing it up, not that I suggest that everyone, or even at all, should take part, but maybe we can have players traded amongst teams? Of course, all parties would have to agree to the trade, such as players being traded and captains being traded.
But then again, I guess trading is sort of pointless when none of the players are tied down to the team by any means and can seemingly leave whenever they want, and join another.
On August 05 2013 11:04 SynC[gm] wrote: Maybe for the sake of mixing it up, not that I suggest that everyone, or even at all, should take part, but maybe we can have players traded amongst teams? Of course, all parties would have to agree to the trade, such as players being traded and captains being traded.
But then again, I guess trading is sort of pointless when none of the players are tied down to the team by any means and can seemingly leave whenever they want, and join another.
On August 05 2013 11:04 SynC[gm] wrote: Maybe for the sake of mixing it up, not that I suggest that everyone, or even at all, should take part, but maybe we can have players traded amongst teams? Of course, all parties would have to agree to the trade, such as players being traded and captains being traded.
But then again, I guess trading is sort of pointless when none of the players are tied down to the team by any means and can seemingly leave whenever they want, and join another.
On August 05 2013 10:52 ImAtTheBeacH wrote: I talked to NewJetCity yesterday and it seems that he wants to participate again this season. I will have to confirm with him one more time, but it's pretty certain that this is the decision.
Reminder, NewJetCity was on Sun Khan previous season
Heyo everyone. I would like to participate in the league too if possible. This seems a good opportunity to relax, sit back and just play starcraft. My max is d+ Race: Terran My iccup ID's are: uPro)Kopp or [mPs]Kopp you can msg me on those.
On August 06 2013 00:36 LTY wrote: When is draft happening?
On August 04 2013 15:52 L_Master wrote: Draft will take place starting this Friday the 9th just so people are aware. Captains, if I don't already have you add me on skype so I can get you in the captains group for drafting (luciditymasters = my skype id)
This will close on the 9th right before the draft.
This question is pretty stupid...why would you be on the fence about this? I assume it has to do with SB's proposed dividing in 2 because of numbers. Which would mean make the real poll question this.
Can a team split in two to secure play time for its members?
These are the only players we have been able to confirm.
Anyway, I will use this tl account from now on, to prevent confusion, as some new players had complains about it being hard to figure out what tl nick was connected to what iccup nick.
This will close on the 9th right before the draft.
This question is pretty stupid... I assume it has to do with SB's proposed dividing in 2. Which would mean make the real poll question this.
Can a team split in two to secure play time for its members?
No, this question asks the core question. A ruling against Arca/Marine forming a second team sets a precedent that a player may not leave his own team to start another because that is exactly what I would be doing: preventing two sB members from starting a different team. That is really the question I'm asking too, I have some idea where people stand on the specific sB instance, but I want to know what the players of the league think overall about whether or not people should be allowed to leave a team to start a new one
This will close on the 9th right before the draft.
This question is pretty stupid... I assume it has to do with SB's proposed dividing in 2. Which would mean make the real poll question this.
Can a team split in two to secure play time for its members?
No, this question asks the core question. A ruling against Arca/Marine forming a second team sets a precedent that a player may not leave his own team to start another because that is exactly what I would be doing: preventing two sB members from starting a different team. That is really the question I'm asking too, I have some idea where people stand on the specific sB instance, but I want to know what the players of the league think overall about whether or not people should be allowed to leave a team to start a new one
but its nota new team proposed ur question has nothing too do with this situation. Its not 1or 2 players starting afresh its a team dividing with the captains already been decided. Do u understand? Its not a new team. Theres no scoutin n work involved in making the team. Its a team spliting cos or size. The new team wouldnt be call SB 2.0 but it will be full of ex sB members not new agents.
This will close on the 9th right before the draft.
This question is pretty stupid... I assume it has to do with SB's proposed dividing in 2. Which would mean make the real poll question this.
Can a team split in two to secure play time for its members?
No, this question asks the core question. A ruling against Arca/Marine forming a second team sets a precedent that a player may not leave his own team to start another because that is exactly what I would be doing: preventing two sB members from starting a different team. That is really the question I'm asking too, I have some idea where people stand on the specific sB instance, but I want to know what the players of the league think overall about whether or not people should be allowed to leave a team to start a new one
but its nota new team proposed ur question has nothing too do with this situation. Its not 1or 2 players starting afresh its a team dividing with the captains already been decided. Do u understand? Its not a new team. Theres no scoutin n work involved in making the team. Its a team spliting cos or size. The new team wouldnt be call SB 2.0 but it will be full of ex sB members not new agents.
First, I will say I put a clarifier in the poll to make it clear this also concerns the sB issue so that no one gets overly confused.
Its not 1or 2 players starting afresh
Arca and TheMarine are the only two sB players going to the new team. The rest will be free agents, so in this case it really is just two players.
The new team wouldnt be call SB 2.0 but it will be full of ex sB members not new agents.
I actually do see where you are going with this, but as I have been informed so far it is only Arca and TheMarine leaving, making up the rest of the team with recruits and/or people from the draft.
Birdie has stated and it was the only reason i objected. That arca n marine would be leaving if they hit 14 members SB would split n arca and marine would go with 5 others to start a new team. To ensure its fair for all to get a game. I cant construct a post with the quotes. but if you show me were it says arca n marine wanna leave SB n make a brand new team from scratch i'd appricate it.
On August 06 2013 06:02 Cpt.beefy wrote: Birdie has stated and it was the only reason i objected. That arca n marine would be leaving if they hit 14 members SB would split n arca and marine would go with 5 others to start a new team. To ensure its fair for all to get a game. I cant construct a post with the quotes. but if you show me were it says arca n marine wanna leave SB n make a brand new team from scratch i'd appricate it.
On July 30 2013 07:09 Sentenal wrote: You guys don't think "Hey, lets do the exact same thing as this but call it something different" actually changes anything, do you?
exactly
so what i'm asking is if, before any mention of a 2nd SB team or anything, arca had said "i don't like birdie, i'm making my own team" and make his own team, would that have been acceptable? and if that is acceptable, why isn't 2 SB teams acceptable since they're essentially equivalent?
what if i decided i wanted to captain my own DRTL team this season? would you say "no, you used to play for despa, so you aren't allowed to"
The concern is that friends and ex teammates have a greater likelihood and incentive to conspire in order to aid one another. If it were true that Arca, and many of his future teammates were not friends with Birde and his remaining teammates, then yes, it would change the entire nature of the situation. But note, it would change the situation entirely, we are not in that position whatsoever.
We're basically in that position, in that it would be Arca and probably TheMarine running the second team, and the members would be new people to sB, so in that sense they're not longtime friends.
This means recruits as I read it, and is where I am taking my info + from what Birdie has told me in Skype while talking to him.
On August 01 2013 20:56 pebble444 wrote: Birdie, i' m sorry to say your approach here is wrong. To recruite other player IS part of managing/running a team. If you are recruiting players for them, thats not a good start at all. As Lmaster said, running a team is okay if done by others. Running means also in my experience recruiting players. If you are recruiting the players, during the league these players will see you no matter what as some kind of reference. I saw the LOL posts, but lol is a different game, tuned in to a stream once didn' t understand anything remided me of warcraft 3 (which i believe it comes from). This situation is going to cause harm to the league. Mark my words. If you really want this to work, my advice is let Arca/marine deal with recruiting, let them decide which players your going to be splitting. Maybe you are doing things like this already, anyway sometimes it is best to do nothing at all and let others in order to make things happen in the best of ways.
As I said before, the team that Arca and TheMarine are going to run is already essentially complete; but for the split to go ahead, sB that I'm running needs a couple more players. If we can't find any more then the split won't happen. Right now Arca and TheMarine are not captains of any team, I'm captain of around 11 players. If I find 3 more people to join my team then I will request for Arca and TheMarine to leave along with 5 other players, to form their own team for the duration of this league. Then there will be their team and my team. Right now, there is only my team, and I am recruiting for them, and I am allowed to recruit as many as I want for them. I'm not recruiting them for Arca/Marine's team, I'm recruiting them for my team, Team Stealth Bunnies.
What's going to happen is a team SPLIT, not arca/marine leaving to form a new team per se. It'll be half of an old team forming a new team, not two players forming a new team. They will be their own team, don't get me wrong, they're running it not me (gl with that guys ;D). Until the team is split, I'm in charge.
On August 01 2013 17:20 Cpt.beefy wrote: So your using draft players to fill sB, then your splitting that team in 2. Where as you recruited everyone into stealth bunnies but only half u will captain? Nope zero sense.
Arca n marine are captaining Half of sB? Thats wat happening? You think thats fine?
I'm not taking any free agent players (except RulZBoooM might have been a free agent), I'm talking to friends of mine which I've played with and practice partners and so on. The team was already too large for one team, so it's easier for me to recruit a couple more players and split it into two so everyone gets more game time and there's more teams in the league. This also lets Arca and TheMarine have the experience of running a team, which is both very fun and a good learning experience for all sorts of different skills. I think that's fine, yup. I won't be running the team they run. L_Master has said that as long as I'm not running the other team and the rosters are separate, it's fine, and I agree with him; I no longer want to run both teams, and separate rosters is of course necessary.
This is wat the split is Lmaster , n its posted after your quote. This is what i object too. Not a player starting a new team.
On August 01 2013 20:56 pebble444 wrote: Birdie, i' m sorry to say your approach here is wrong. To recruite other player IS part of managing/running a team. If you are recruiting players for them, thats not a good start at all. As Lmaster said, running a team is okay if done by others. Running means also in my experience recruiting players. If you are recruiting the players, during the league these players will see you no matter what as some kind of reference. I saw the LOL posts, but lol is a different game, tuned in to a stream once didn' t understand anything remided me of warcraft 3 (which i believe it comes from). This situation is going to cause harm to the league. Mark my words. If you really want this to work, my advice is let Arca/marine deal with recruiting, let them decide which players your going to be splitting. Maybe you are doing things like this already, anyway sometimes it is best to do nothing at all and let others in order to make things happen in the best of ways.
As I said before, the team that Arca and TheMarine are going to run is already essentially complete; but for the split to go ahead, sB that I'm running needs a couple more players. If we can't find any more then the split won't happen. Right now Arca and TheMarine are not captains of any team, I'm captain of around 11 players. If I find 3 more people to join my team then I will request for Arca and TheMarine to leave along with 5 other players, to form their own team for the duration of this league. Then there will be their team and my team. Right now, there is only my team, and I am recruiting for them, and I am allowed to recruit as many as I want for them. I'm not recruiting them for Arca/Marine's team, I'm recruiting them for my team, Team Stealth Bunnies.
What's going to happen is a team SPLIT, not arca/marine leaving to form a new team per se. It'll be half of an old team forming a new team, not two players forming a new team. They will be their own team, don't get me wrong, they're running it not me (gl with that guys ;D). Until the team is split, I'm in charge.
That certainly does change the read some
Did not realize the split would be taking so many sB members to the new team. Perhaps what Birdie meant by new recruits is these people he is trying to recruit now between seasons who have essentially never played on sB would be the ones going to the new team. Arca and the Marine taking a bunch of new guys Birdie grabbed in the last week is indeed a little different than them taking say Icedraco, Taeyoon, and another random guy or three.
EDIT: I think the poll is still correct though, as the wording explains that a yes vote means ok with sB splitting. If you don't think it is clear enough, feel free to suggest an alternate wording and I could restart it.
Well, it is D Rank, so maybe I would forgive you here. D Rank TvT not quite the same as progamer TvT
Forgive me? hehe. No need, it is a snooze fest XD I think biomech would be more fun in TvT but I doubt anyone would go that route. You are correct though. Rank D TvT is pretty boring to watch, not sure about play though since I usually avoid TvT.
On August 06 2013 06:02 Cpt.beefy wrote: Birdie has stated and it was the only reason i objected. That arca n marine would be leaving if they hit 14 members SB would split n arca and marine would go with 5 others to start a new team. To ensure its fair for all to get a game. I cant construct a post with the quotes. but if you show me were it says arca n marine wanna leave SB n make a brand new team from scratch i'd appricate it.
On July 30 2013 07:09 Sentenal wrote: You guys don't think "Hey, lets do the exact same thing as this but call it something different" actually changes anything, do you?
exactly
so what i'm asking is if, before any mention of a 2nd SB team or anything, arca had said "i don't like birdie, i'm making my own team" and make his own team, would that have been acceptable? and if that is acceptable, why isn't 2 SB teams acceptable since they're essentially equivalent?
what if i decided i wanted to captain my own DRTL team this season? would you say "no, you used to play for despa, so you aren't allowed to"
The concern is that friends and ex teammates have a greater likelihood and incentive to conspire in order to aid one another. If it were true that Arca, and many of his future teammates were not friends with Birde and his remaining teammates, then yes, it would change the entire nature of the situation. But note, it would change the situation entirely, we are not in that position whatsoever.
We're basically in that position, in that it would be Arca and probably TheMarine running the second team, and the members would be new people to sB, so in that sense they're not longtime friends.
This means recruits as I read it, and is where I am taking my info + from what Birdie has told me in Skype while talking to him.
They are correct. Birdie did state that once the team got big enough, they'll split and that he has already recruited people for the teams so ya, 2 teams but under the same banner and such.
Birdie did all the work for the 2nd sB team he's just claiming he is not going to captain it. So, in reality it isn't really a new team, but just a fraction of an existing team.
On August 06 2013 06:30 Cpt.beefy wrote: Your out ou touch or been wormtongued lmaster.
Nah, I'm not too concerned. Sentenal just posted a more up to date version, and I can understand what may have been meant by "new recuits".
The important thing is that the poll is correct, and given that I say: "also to be clear a vote of "yes" means sB splitting is ok, "no" means it is not." I think the poll should be clear to the issue at hand.
As stated before, if you don't think it is clear let me know and suggest an alternate wording; though to be honest I'm not sure how I can be much more clear than "yes means sB splitting is ok"
On August 06 2013 06:19 Sentenal wrote: Which Birdie are you talking to?
On August 01 2013 21:11 Birdie wrote:
On August 01 2013 20:56 pebble444 wrote: Birdie, i' m sorry to say your approach here is wrong. To recruite other player IS part of managing/running a team. If you are recruiting players for them, thats not a good start at all. As Lmaster said, running a team is okay if done by others. Running means also in my experience recruiting players. If you are recruiting the players, during the league these players will see you no matter what as some kind of reference. I saw the LOL posts, but lol is a different game, tuned in to a stream once didn' t understand anything remided me of warcraft 3 (which i believe it comes from). This situation is going to cause harm to the league. Mark my words. If you really want this to work, my advice is let Arca/marine deal with recruiting, let them decide which players your going to be splitting. Maybe you are doing things like this already, anyway sometimes it is best to do nothing at all and let others in order to make things happen in the best of ways.
As I said before, the team that Arca and TheMarine are going to run is already essentially complete; but for the split to go ahead, sB that I'm running needs a couple more players. If we can't find any more then the split won't happen. Right now Arca and TheMarine are not captains of any team, I'm captain of around 11 players. If I find 3 more people to join my team then I will request for Arca and TheMarine to leave along with 5 other players, to form their own team for the duration of this league. Then there will be their team and my team. Right now, there is only my team, and I am recruiting for them, and I am allowed to recruit as many as I want for them. I'm not recruiting them for Arca/Marine's team, I'm recruiting them for my team, Team Stealth Bunnies.
What's going to happen is a team SPLIT, not arca/marine leaving to form a new team per se. It'll be half of an old team forming a new team, not two players forming a new team. They will be their own team, don't get me wrong, they're running it not me (gl with that guys ;D). Until the team is split, I'm in charge.
That certainly does change the read some
Did not realize the split would be taking so many sB members to the new team. Perhaps what Birdie meant by new recruits is these people he is trying to recruit now between seasons who have essentially never played on sB would be the ones going to the new team. Arca and the Marine taking a bunch of new guys Birdie grabbed in the last week is indeed a little different than them taking say Icedraco, Taeyoon, and another random guy or three.
EDIT: I think the poll is still correct though, as the wording explains that a yes vote means ok with sB splitting. If you don't think it is clear enough, feel free to suggest an alternate wording and I could restart it.
According to what he said, he isn't going to send the new members to TheMarine's team. Hes going to do it volunteerily. The players he is recruiting right now are for his Stealth Bunnies. Additionally, the players he is recruiting right now are friends and practice partners of his.
TBH, I think the poll should just get remade. You have the caption above it, the poll question itself doesn't say anything about that, and some people just don't read everything. The poll question doesn't reflect the situation or what Birdie is wanting to do. If I were to reword it, I would say "Should a team be allowed to split in half into two teams?"
On August 06 2013 06:19 Sentenal wrote: Which Birdie are you talking to?
On August 01 2013 21:11 Birdie wrote:
On August 01 2013 20:56 pebble444 wrote: Birdie, i' m sorry to say your approach here is wrong. To recruite other player IS part of managing/running a team. If you are recruiting players for them, thats not a good start at all. As Lmaster said, running a team is okay if done by others. Running means also in my experience recruiting players. If you are recruiting the players, during the league these players will see you no matter what as some kind of reference. I saw the LOL posts, but lol is a different game, tuned in to a stream once didn' t understand anything remided me of warcraft 3 (which i believe it comes from). This situation is going to cause harm to the league. Mark my words. If you really want this to work, my advice is let Arca/marine deal with recruiting, let them decide which players your going to be splitting. Maybe you are doing things like this already, anyway sometimes it is best to do nothing at all and let others in order to make things happen in the best of ways.
As I said before, the team that Arca and TheMarine are going to run is already essentially complete; but for the split to go ahead, sB that I'm running needs a couple more players. If we can't find any more then the split won't happen. Right now Arca and TheMarine are not captains of any team, I'm captain of around 11 players. If I find 3 more people to join my team then I will request for Arca and TheMarine to leave along with 5 other players, to form their own team for the duration of this league. Then there will be their team and my team. Right now, there is only my team, and I am recruiting for them, and I am allowed to recruit as many as I want for them. I'm not recruiting them for Arca/Marine's team, I'm recruiting them for my team, Team Stealth Bunnies.
What's going to happen is a team SPLIT, not arca/marine leaving to form a new team per se. It'll be half of an old team forming a new team, not two players forming a new team. They will be their own team, don't get me wrong, they're running it not me (gl with that guys ;D). Until the team is split, I'm in charge.
That certainly does change the read some
Did not realize the split would be taking so many sB members to the new team. Perhaps what Birdie meant by new recruits is these people he is trying to recruit now between seasons who have essentially never played on sB would be the ones going to the new team. Arca and the Marine taking a bunch of new guys Birdie grabbed in the last week is indeed a little different than them taking say Icedraco, Taeyoon, and another random guy or three.
EDIT: I think the poll is still correct though, as the wording explains that a yes vote means ok with sB splitting. If you don't think it is clear enough, feel free to suggest an alternate wording and I could restart it.
According to what he said, he isn't going to send the new members to TheMarine's team. Hes going to do it volunteerily. The players he is recruiting right now are for his Stealth Bunnies. Additionally, the players he is recruiting right now are friends and practice partners of his.
TBH, I think the poll should just get remade. The poll question doesn't reflect the situation or what Birdie is wanting to do. If I were to reword it, I would say "Should a team be allowed to split in half into two teams?"
On August 06 2013 06:19 Sentenal wrote: Which Birdie are you talking to?
On August 01 2013 21:11 Birdie wrote:
On August 01 2013 20:56 pebble444 wrote: Birdie, i' m sorry to say your approach here is wrong. To recruite other player IS part of managing/running a team. If you are recruiting players for them, thats not a good start at all. As Lmaster said, running a team is okay if done by others. Running means also in my experience recruiting players. If you are recruiting the players, during the league these players will see you no matter what as some kind of reference. I saw the LOL posts, but lol is a different game, tuned in to a stream once didn' t understand anything remided me of warcraft 3 (which i believe it comes from). This situation is going to cause harm to the league. Mark my words. If you really want this to work, my advice is let Arca/marine deal with recruiting, let them decide which players your going to be splitting. Maybe you are doing things like this already, anyway sometimes it is best to do nothing at all and let others in order to make things happen in the best of ways.
As I said before, the team that Arca and TheMarine are going to run is already essentially complete; but for the split to go ahead, sB that I'm running needs a couple more players. If we can't find any more then the split won't happen. Right now Arca and TheMarine are not captains of any team, I'm captain of around 11 players. If I find 3 more people to join my team then I will request for Arca and TheMarine to leave along with 5 other players, to form their own team for the duration of this league. Then there will be their team and my team. Right now, there is only my team, and I am recruiting for them, and I am allowed to recruit as many as I want for them. I'm not recruiting them for Arca/Marine's team, I'm recruiting them for my team, Team Stealth Bunnies.
What's going to happen is a team SPLIT, not arca/marine leaving to form a new team per se. It'll be half of an old team forming a new team, not two players forming a new team. They will be their own team, don't get me wrong, they're running it not me (gl with that guys ;D). Until the team is split, I'm in charge.
That certainly does change the read some
Did not realize the split would be taking so many sB members to the new team. Perhaps what Birdie meant by new recruits is these people he is trying to recruit now between seasons who have essentially never played on sB would be the ones going to the new team. Arca and the Marine taking a bunch of new guys Birdie grabbed in the last week is indeed a little different than them taking say Icedraco, Taeyoon, and another random guy or three.
EDIT: I think the poll is still correct though, as the wording explains that a yes vote means ok with sB splitting. If you don't think it is clear enough, feel free to suggest an alternate wording and I could restart it.
According to what he said, he isn't going to send the new members to TheMarine's team. Hes going to do it volunteerily. The players he is recruiting right now are for his Stealth Bunnies. Additionally, the players he is recruiting right now are friends and practice partners of his.
TBH, I think the poll should just get remade. You have the caption above it, the poll question itself doesn't say anything about that, and some people just don't read everything. The poll question doesn't reflect the situation or what Birdie is wanting to do. If I were to reword it, I would say "Should a team be allowed to split in half into two teams?"
Done.
Beefy, if you wouldn't mind editing out your posts quoting my poll so that people won't be dumb and vote in the quoted poll that would be awesome
I wasn't joking and my high for last maybe 6years(?) has only been C-. I honestly feel I'm no better than the better players in this league. I thought this would be a good place to start playing more and practicing with people because if it's for a team that wants to win in this setting it would force me to learn new maps and practice, but if it's not going to happen I guess it's not going to happen. Even though there are already C- players in the league:[
On August 06 2013 06:56 tonight wrote: I wasn't joking and my high for last maybe 6years(?) has only been C-. I honestly feel I'm no better than the better players in this league. I thought this would be a good place to start playing more and practicing with people because if it's for a team that wants to win in this setting it would force me to learn new maps and practice, but if it's not going to happen I guess it's not going to happen. Even though there are already C- players in the league:[
Well, when I see sMi tag and then look and see 25-9 record for this season that definitely look suspicious, like a player that can probably hold C- (obv it's garbage ICC ranking but it does look alarming), when general precedent has been that players that hit C-, but don't hold it, are the top limit.
I suppose again the best way to go is to do what others have done and make a poll for yourself about whether you should be allowed to play. I always allow players in if the poll favors it.
On August 06 2013 06:19 Sentenal wrote: Which Birdie are you talking to?
On August 01 2013 21:11 Birdie wrote:
On August 01 2013 20:56 pebble444 wrote: Birdie, i' m sorry to say your approach here is wrong. To recruite other player IS part of managing/running a team. If you are recruiting players for them, thats not a good start at all. As Lmaster said, running a team is okay if done by others. Running means also in my experience recruiting players. If you are recruiting the players, during the league these players will see you no matter what as some kind of reference. I saw the LOL posts, but lol is a different game, tuned in to a stream once didn' t understand anything remided me of warcraft 3 (which i believe it comes from). This situation is going to cause harm to the league. Mark my words. If you really want this to work, my advice is let Arca/marine deal with recruiting, let them decide which players your going to be splitting. Maybe you are doing things like this already, anyway sometimes it is best to do nothing at all and let others in order to make things happen in the best of ways.
As I said before, the team that Arca and TheMarine are going to run is already essentially complete; but for the split to go ahead, sB that I'm running needs a couple more players. If we can't find any more then the split won't happen. Right now Arca and TheMarine are not captains of any team, I'm captain of around 11 players. If I find 3 more people to join my team then I will request for Arca and TheMarine to leave along with 5 other players, to form their own team for the duration of this league. Then there will be their team and my team. Right now, there is only my team, and I am recruiting for them, and I am allowed to recruit as many as I want for them. I'm not recruiting them for Arca/Marine's team, I'm recruiting them for my team, Team Stealth Bunnies.
What's going to happen is a team SPLIT, not arca/marine leaving to form a new team per se. It'll be half of an old team forming a new team, not two players forming a new team. They will be their own team, don't get me wrong, they're running it not me (gl with that guys ;D). Until the team is split, I'm in charge.
That certainly does change the read some
Did not realize the split would be taking so many sB members to the new team. Perhaps what Birdie meant by new recruits is these people he is trying to recruit now between seasons who have essentially never played on sB would be the ones going to the new team. Arca and the Marine taking a bunch of new guys Birdie grabbed in the last week is indeed a little different than them taking say Icedraco, Taeyoon, and another random guy or three.
EDIT: I think the poll is still correct though, as the wording explains that a yes vote means ok with sB splitting. If you don't think it is clear enough, feel free to suggest an alternate wording and I could restart it.
The sB players that would go to the new team are all new members that have joined in the last month or less, except Arca and TheMarine of course.
On August 06 2013 06:56 tonight wrote: I wasn't joking and my high for last maybe 6years(?) has only been C-. I honestly feel I'm no better than the better players in this league. I thought this would be a good place to start playing more and practicing with people because if it's for a team that wants to win in this setting it would force me to learn new maps and practice, but if it's not going to happen I guess it's not going to happen. Even though there are already C- players in the league:[
I don't mind if you play, but if this is anything to go by, you might be somewhat better than the better players around.
edit: I take my remark back. Kaigreene is just 3 spots above you. So I guess you might actually be around the same level as the better guys around here.
On August 06 2013 06:56 tonight wrote: I wasn't joking and my high for last maybe 6years(?) has only been C-. I honestly feel I'm no better than the better players in this league. I thought this would be a good place to start playing more and practicing with people because if it's for a team that wants to win in this setting it would force me to learn new maps and practice, but if it's not going to happen I guess it's not going to happen. Even though there are already C- players in the league:[
I don't mind if you play, but if this is anything to go by, you might be somewhat better than the better players around.
I'm not really sure what that means, haha. Yeah, if someone wants to make a poll and if people think I'm too good to play then that's fine. I just know that I still lose to people in Courage quite often and my PvZ is garbage:[
On August 06 2013 06:19 Sentenal wrote: Which Birdie are you talking to?
On August 01 2013 21:11 Birdie wrote:
On August 01 2013 20:56 pebble444 wrote: Birdie, i' m sorry to say your approach here is wrong. To recruite other player IS part of managing/running a team. If you are recruiting players for them, thats not a good start at all. As Lmaster said, running a team is okay if done by others. Running means also in my experience recruiting players. If you are recruiting the players, during the league these players will see you no matter what as some kind of reference. I saw the LOL posts, but lol is a different game, tuned in to a stream once didn' t understand anything remided me of warcraft 3 (which i believe it comes from). This situation is going to cause harm to the league. Mark my words. If you really want this to work, my advice is let Arca/marine deal with recruiting, let them decide which players your going to be splitting. Maybe you are doing things like this already, anyway sometimes it is best to do nothing at all and let others in order to make things happen in the best of ways.
As I said before, the team that Arca and TheMarine are going to run is already essentially complete; but for the split to go ahead, sB that I'm running needs a couple more players. If we can't find any more then the split won't happen. Right now Arca and TheMarine are not captains of any team, I'm captain of around 11 players. If I find 3 more people to join my team then I will request for Arca and TheMarine to leave along with 5 other players, to form their own team for the duration of this league. Then there will be their team and my team. Right now, there is only my team, and I am recruiting for them, and I am allowed to recruit as many as I want for them. I'm not recruiting them for Arca/Marine's team, I'm recruiting them for my team, Team Stealth Bunnies.
What's going to happen is a team SPLIT, not arca/marine leaving to form a new team per se. It'll be half of an old team forming a new team, not two players forming a new team. They will be their own team, don't get me wrong, they're running it not me (gl with that guys ;D). Until the team is split, I'm in charge.
That certainly does change the read some
Did not realize the split would be taking so many sB members to the new team. Perhaps what Birdie meant by new recruits is these people he is trying to recruit now between seasons who have essentially never played on sB would be the ones going to the new team. Arca and the Marine taking a bunch of new guys Birdie grabbed in the last week is indeed a little different than them taking say Icedraco, Taeyoon, and another random guy or three.
EDIT: I think the poll is still correct though, as the wording explains that a yes vote means ok with sB splitting. If you don't think it is clear enough, feel free to suggest an alternate wording and I could restart it.
The sB players that would go to the new team are all new members that have joined in the last month or less, except Arca and TheMarine of course.
Just to be clear, you won't be asking players to voluntarily leave like you had previously said, but instead will be deciding who will play on the new team from the new players (your friends and practice partners) you recruited?
On August 06 2013 06:19 Sentenal wrote: Which Birdie are you talking to?
On August 01 2013 21:11 Birdie wrote:
On August 01 2013 20:56 pebble444 wrote: Birdie, i' m sorry to say your approach here is wrong. To recruite other player IS part of managing/running a team. If you are recruiting players for them, thats not a good start at all. As Lmaster said, running a team is okay if done by others. Running means also in my experience recruiting players. If you are recruiting the players, during the league these players will see you no matter what as some kind of reference. I saw the LOL posts, but lol is a different game, tuned in to a stream once didn' t understand anything remided me of warcraft 3 (which i believe it comes from). This situation is going to cause harm to the league. Mark my words. If you really want this to work, my advice is let Arca/marine deal with recruiting, let them decide which players your going to be splitting. Maybe you are doing things like this already, anyway sometimes it is best to do nothing at all and let others in order to make things happen in the best of ways.
As I said before, the team that Arca and TheMarine are going to run is already essentially complete; but for the split to go ahead, sB that I'm running needs a couple more players. If we can't find any more then the split won't happen. Right now Arca and TheMarine are not captains of any team, I'm captain of around 11 players. If I find 3 more people to join my team then I will request for Arca and TheMarine to leave along with 5 other players, to form their own team for the duration of this league. Then there will be their team and my team. Right now, there is only my team, and I am recruiting for them, and I am allowed to recruit as many as I want for them. I'm not recruiting them for Arca/Marine's team, I'm recruiting them for my team, Team Stealth Bunnies.
What's going to happen is a team SPLIT, not arca/marine leaving to form a new team per se. It'll be half of an old team forming a new team, not two players forming a new team. They will be their own team, don't get me wrong, they're running it not me (gl with that guys ;D). Until the team is split, I'm in charge.
That certainly does change the read some
Did not realize the split would be taking so many sB members to the new team. Perhaps what Birdie meant by new recruits is these people he is trying to recruit now between seasons who have essentially never played on sB would be the ones going to the new team. Arca and the Marine taking a bunch of new guys Birdie grabbed in the last week is indeed a little different than them taking say Icedraco, Taeyoon, and another random guy or three.
EDIT: I think the poll is still correct though, as the wording explains that a yes vote means ok with sB splitting. If you don't think it is clear enough, feel free to suggest an alternate wording and I could restart it.
The sB players that would go to the new team are all new members that have joined in the last month or less, except Arca and TheMarine of course.
Just to be clear, you won't be asking players to voluntarily leave like you had previously said, but instead will be deciding who will play on the new team from the new players (your friends and practice partners) you recruited?
Of the new players, I'm asking them if they're willing to leave or not, if they say no then they're more than welcome to stay on sB. So I am asking them to voluntarily leave.
On August 06 2013 06:56 tonight wrote: I wasn't joking and my high for last maybe 6years(?) has only been C-. I honestly feel I'm no better than the better players in this league. I thought this would be a good place to start playing more and practicing with people because if it's for a team that wants to win in this setting it would force me to learn new maps and practice, but if it's not going to happen I guess it's not going to happen. Even though there are already C- players in the league:[
I don't mind if you play, but if this is anything to go by, you might be somewhat better than the better players around.
I'm not really sure what that means, haha. Yeah, if someone wants to make a poll and if people think I'm too good to play then that's fine. I just know that I still lose to people in Courage quite often and my PvZ is garbage:[
It's supposed to be some kind of ranking that shows the actual skill of the players. (No idea how it does this) Anyway, as I edited my post above, you seem to be around the acceptable level of this league.
On August 06 2013 06:56 tonight wrote: I wasn't joking and my high for last maybe 6years(?) has only been C-. I honestly feel I'm no better than the better players in this league. I thought this would be a good place to start playing more and practicing with people because if it's for a team that wants to win in this setting it would force me to learn new maps and practice, but if it's not going to happen I guess it's not going to happen. Even though there are already C- players in the league:[
I don't mind if you play, but if this is anything to go by, you might be somewhat better than the better players around.
I'm not really sure what that means, haha. Yeah, if someone wants to make a poll and if people think I'm too good to play then that's fine. I just know that I still lose to people in Courage quite often and my PvZ is garbage:[
It's supposed to be some kind of ranking that shows the actual skill of the players. (No idea how it does this) Anyway, as I edited my post above, you seem to be around the acceptable level of this league.
This public polling is stupid because anyone on Teamliquid can vote on it, with whatever alternate accounts they have, its just bs.
I think the only fair way is to have public voting, ie post rather than anonymous voting for both the Sb. team split and for tonight being able to play.
I'm voting Yes to SB being able to split I'm also voting Yes to tonight being able to play.
Edit: to clarify, I have no reason to believe Birdie or anyone on SB. is trying to cheat, not to mention no one is taking into account that they're weakening their own team if they split up some of their better players. So no matter how them throwing games could influence playoffs, has anyone considered that neither SB will make it to playoffs? I think a lot of people here forget that Birdie went through the trouble of uncovering all of Babo's shenanigans in CRTL, this isn' Babo and his cronnies, its freaking Birdie Arca and TheMarine, they're just trying to give a bunch of D Rankers a bit more exposure and play time, which this league is about after all. Telling him to stop recruiting is moronic, this league needs more players and especially newer players to get involved, I've only played in this one season and I can already see it growing stagnant if it continues without influx of new blood.
As for tonight being able to play, play a few games with him and tell me he's out of this league, this league is already completely borderline C- at the upper end. He's just looking to play some BW games and with no other option currently available to him I think its stupid to exclude him because of an "artificial" upper limit that we're breaking the rules on anyway. If we're not going to let tonight play, I'd say we should have everyone who got to DRIT6 ro16 retire from D Ranks as well.
Edit: In reply to that, I do believe teams should be able to split and form as they wish, binding players to teams seems incredibly limiting to me. From what I gathered about the discussion most people had a problem with Sb. specifically doing this, rather than teams splitting up in general.
I do agree that polls can be rigged via TL randoms in either direction, especially since this one seems pretty close atm.
DNH, to be clear, you are not just voting for sB being able to split, you are also voting to start the precedent that any team in the future will be able to do so. If you still believe a league should allow that, that's fine, but I think it's short-sighted and misleading to specify sB because this issue is about setting a precedent, not about Birdie specifically; therefore, your comments about him are meaningless in terms of the question at hand.
Poll Voting is polling voting. This is teamliquid not the UN. However, I voted no for 1st. For the principal of it. Recruit if your team needs it, but dont hover ppl you know could be good for the league. Dunno tonight.
On August 06 2013 10:14 Cpt.beefy wrote: but dont hover ppl you know could be good for the league.
Can you make this a little more clear, please?
If you mean that I shouldn't "hold" players that could be good for the league, as I said before these are people that I know, who wouldn't join other teams (for the most part) and hadn't signed up for the league and wouldn't have otherwise. If they don't join sB then they probably wouldn't join any other team, so the league would be worse off not better. Your argument doesn't make any sense.
On August 06 2013 10:14 Cpt.beefy wrote: but dont hover ppl you know could be good for the league.
Can you make this a little more clear, please?
If you mean that I shouldn't "hold" players that could be good for the league, as I said before these are people that I know, who wouldn't join other teams (for the most part) and hadn't signed up for the league and wouldn't have otherwise. If they don't join sB then they probably wouldn't join any other team, so the league would be worse off not better. Your argument doesn't make any sense.
His grammar doesn't make sense half the time. But I guess in his defense, he probably types on a phone most of the time.
On August 06 2013 10:14 Cpt.beefy wrote: but dont hover ppl you know could be good for the league.
Can you make this a little more clear, please?
If you mean that I shouldn't "hold" players that could be good for the league, as I said before these are people that I know, who wouldn't join other teams (for the most part) and hadn't signed up for the league and wouldn't have otherwise. If they don't join sB then they probably wouldn't join any other team, so the league would be worse off not better. Your argument doesn't make any sense.
If you have nothing do with running the new sB team, then why are your new people okay with playing for that team, but not any others?
On August 06 2013 10:14 Cpt.beefy wrote: but dont hover ppl you know could be good for the league.
Can you make this a little more clear, please?
If you mean that I shouldn't "hold" players that could be good for the league, as I said before these are people that I know, who wouldn't join other teams (for the most part) and hadn't signed up for the league and wouldn't have otherwise. If they don't join sB then they probably wouldn't join any other team, so the league would be worse off not better. Your argument doesn't make any sense.
If you have nothing do with running the new sB team, then why are your new people okay with playing for that team, but not any others?
On August 06 2013 06:56 tonight wrote: I wasn't joking and my high for last maybe 6years(?) has only been C-. I honestly feel I'm no better than the better players in this league. I thought this would be a good place to start playing more and practicing with people because if it's for a team that wants to win in this setting it would force me to learn new maps and practice, but if it's not going to happen I guess it's not going to happen. Even though there are already C- players in the league:[
I don't mind if you play, but if this is anything to go by, you might be somewhat better than the better players around.
edit: I take my remark back. Kaigreene is just 3 spots above you. So I guess you might actually be around the same level as the better guys around here.
Now that you mentioned him, it looks like Kai have risen a lot in rank. 23-5 and 16-1 this season. That's incredibly strong, although the sample size is small.
On August 06 2013 06:56 tonight wrote: I wasn't joking and my high for last maybe 6years(?) has only been C-. I honestly feel I'm no better than the better players in this league. I thought this would be a good place to start playing more and practicing with people because if it's for a team that wants to win in this setting it would force me to learn new maps and practice, but if it's not going to happen I guess it's not going to happen. Even though there are already C- players in the league:[
I don't mind if you play, but if this is anything to go by, you might be somewhat better than the better players around.
edit: I take my remark back. Kaigreene is just 3 spots above you. So I guess you might actually be around the same level as the better guys around here.
Now that you mentioned him, it looks like Kai have risen a lot in rank. 23-5 and 16-1 this season. That's incredibly strong, although the sample size is small.
On August 06 2013 06:56 tonight wrote: I wasn't joking and my high for last maybe 6years(?) has only been C-. I honestly feel I'm no better than the better players in this league. I thought this would be a good place to start playing more and practicing with people because if it's for a team that wants to win in this setting it would force me to learn new maps and practice, but if it's not going to happen I guess it's not going to happen. Even though there are already C- players in the league:[
I don't mind if you play, but if this is anything to go by, you might be somewhat better than the better players around.
edit: I take my remark back. Kaigreene is just 3 spots above you. So I guess you might actually be around the same level as the better guys around here.
Now that you mentioned him, it looks like Kai have risen a lot in rank. 23-5 and 16-1 this season. That's incredibly strong, although the sample size is small.
On August 06 2013 06:56 tonight wrote: I wasn't joking and my high for last maybe 6years(?) has only been C-. I honestly feel I'm no better than the better players in this league. I thought this would be a good place to start playing more and practicing with people because if it's for a team that wants to win in this setting it would force me to learn new maps and practice, but if it's not going to happen I guess it's not going to happen. Even though there are already C- players in the league:[
I don't mind if you play, but if this is anything to go by, you might be somewhat better than the better players around.
edit: I take my remark back. Kaigreene is just 3 spots above you. So I guess you might actually be around the same level as the better guys around here.
Now that you mentioned him, it looks like Kai have risen a lot in rank. 23-5 and 16-1 this season. That's incredibly strong, although the sample size is small.
Honestly, his DRIT games looked really shaky...
I perform horrible under pressure
And I'm far from being too good in this league, Iccup is just really easy...
On August 06 2013 06:56 tonight wrote: I wasn't joking and my high for last maybe 6years(?) has only been C-. I honestly feel I'm no better than the better players in this league. I thought this would be a good place to start playing more and practicing with people because if it's for a team that wants to win in this setting it would force me to learn new maps and practice, but if it's not going to happen I guess it's not going to happen. Even though there are already C- players in the league:[
I don't mind if you play, but if this is anything to go by, you might be somewhat better than the better players around.
edit: I take my remark back. Kaigreene is just 3 spots above you. So I guess you might actually be around the same level as the better guys around here.
Now that you mentioned him, it looks like Kai have risen a lot in rank. 23-5 and 16-1 this season. That's incredibly strong, although the sample size is small.
Honestly, his DRIT games looked really shaky...
I perform horrible under pressure
And I'm far from being too good in this league, Iccup is just really easy...
If iccup is easy for you, then maybe you shouldn't play in this league. This league is meant for ppl who consistently win against red ranks around 35% of the time, maybe stretching up towards 50%. That's what it claims anyway. I know that there are other players who have performed really well on ladder, like arb, but his stats are not this strong, plus his performance in the league have not been top tier. You, on the other hand won the last DRIT, and have been a top performer in the league every single season you have played. If by saying "Iccup is just really easy..." you mean that this is the kind of winrate you typically get, then it's crystal clear that you shouldn't be playing in this league. However, if this is just a good run, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
On August 06 2013 06:56 tonight wrote: I wasn't joking and my high for last maybe 6years(?) has only been C-. I honestly feel I'm no better than the better players in this league. I thought this would be a good place to start playing more and practicing with people because if it's for a team that wants to win in this setting it would force me to learn new maps and practice, but if it's not going to happen I guess it's not going to happen. Even though there are already C- players in the league:[
I don't mind if you play, but if this is anything to go by, you might be somewhat better than the better players around.
edit: I take my remark back. Kaigreene is just 3 spots above you. So I guess you might actually be around the same level as the better guys around here.
Now that you mentioned him, it looks like Kai have risen a lot in rank. 23-5 and 16-1 this season. That's incredibly strong, although the sample size is small.
Honestly, his DRIT games looked really shaky...
I perform horrible under pressure
And I'm far from being too good in this league, Iccup is just really easy...
If iccup is easy for you, then maybe you shouldn't play in this league. This league is meant for ppl who consistently win against red ranks around 35% of the time, maybe stretching up towards 50%. That's what it claims anyway. I know that there are other players who have performed really well on ladder, like arb, but his stats are not this strong, plus his performance in the league have not been top tier. You, on the other hand won the last DRIT, and have been a top performer in the league every single season you have played. If by saying "Iccup is just really easy..." you mean that this is the kind of winrate you typically get, then it's crystal clear that you shouldn't be playing in this league. However, if this is just a good run, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
I just want the rules to be followed.
What happened to your old account? Also,not meaning to insult kai,but i don't think he is above the league's level.maybe a bit under the borderline.
tossboy is themarine? this is sad. you were c- rank when i left and then 1.5 year later you're worst then you were before. i guess practice everyday back then in ued didn't help at all.
On August 06 2013 06:56 tonight wrote: I wasn't joking and my high for last maybe 6years(?) has only been C-. I honestly feel I'm no better than the better players in this league. I thought this would be a good place to start playing more and practicing with people because if it's for a team that wants to win in this setting it would force me to learn new maps and practice, but if it's not going to happen I guess it's not going to happen. Even though there are already C- players in the league:[
I don't mind if you play, but if this is anything to go by, you might be somewhat better than the better players around.
edit: I take my remark back. Kaigreene is just 3 spots above you. So I guess you might actually be around the same level as the better guys around here.
Now that you mentioned him, it looks like Kai have risen a lot in rank. 23-5 and 16-1 this season. That's incredibly strong, although the sample size is small.
Honestly, his DRIT games looked really shaky...
I perform horrible under pressure
And I'm far from being too good in this league, Iccup is just really easy...
If iccup is easy for you, then maybe you shouldn't play in this league. This league is meant for ppl who consistently win against red ranks around 35% of the time, maybe stretching up towards 50%. That's what it claims anyway. I know that there are other players who have performed really well on ladder, like arb, but his stats are not this strong, plus his performance in the league have not been top tier. You, on the other hand won the last DRIT, and have been a top performer in the league every single season you have played. If by saying "Iccup is just really easy..." you mean that this is the kind of winrate you typically get, then it's crystal clear that you shouldn't be playing in this league. However, if this is just a good run, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
I just want the rules to be followed.
What happened to your old account? Also,not meaning to insult kai,but i don't think he is above the league's level.maybe a bit under the borderline.
Lol marine, you do realise I'm better than you?
And l1ghtning., I understand your point, but I've only participated in drit4 and 5 so not dominant every time I played ;p anyways, I am pretty much floating around D+ and C-n on ladder, but in tournaments Im pretty bad because of the pressure ^^
On August 07 2013 07:07 anklebreak wrote: tossboy is themarine? this is sad. you were c- rank when i left and then 1.5 year later you're worst then you were before. i guess practice everyday back then in ued didn't help at all.
Yo anklebreak!!!! how you been man! Its me, UED_ReZuya
On August 06 2013 06:56 tonight wrote: I wasn't joking and my high for last maybe 6years(?) has only been C-. I honestly feel I'm no better than the better players in this league. I thought this would be a good place to start playing more and practicing with people because if it's for a team that wants to win in this setting it would force me to learn new maps and practice, but if it's not going to happen I guess it's not going to happen. Even though there are already C- players in the league:[
I don't mind if you play, but if this is anything to go by, you might be somewhat better than the better players around.
edit: I take my remark back. Kaigreene is just 3 spots above you. So I guess you might actually be around the same level as the better guys around here.
Now that you mentioned him, it looks like Kai have risen a lot in rank. 23-5 and 16-1 this season. That's incredibly strong, although the sample size is small.
Honestly, his DRIT games looked really shaky...
I perform horrible under pressure
And I'm far from being too good in this league, Iccup is just really easy...
If iccup is easy for you, then maybe you shouldn't play in this league. This league is meant for ppl who consistently win against red ranks around 35% of the time, maybe stretching up towards 50%. That's what it claims anyway. I know that there are other players who have performed really well on ladder, like arb, but his stats are not this strong, plus his performance in the league have not been top tier. You, on the other hand won the last DRIT, and have been a top performer in the league every single season you have played. If by saying "Iccup is just really easy..." you mean that this is the kind of winrate you typically get, then it's crystal clear that you shouldn't be playing in this league. However, if this is just a good run, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
I just want the rules to be followed.
What happened to your old account? Also,not meaning to insult kai,but i don't think he is above the league's level.maybe a bit under the borderline.
Lol marine, you do realise I'm better than you?
And l1ghtning., I understand your point, but I've only participated in drit4 and 5 so not dominant every time I played ;p anyways, I am pretty much floating around D+ and C-n on ladder, but in tournaments Im pretty bad because of the pressure ^^
Yea, this poll is now making me suspicious as fuck. 100 votes? There aren't even 100 players in the league, and I am quite confident not all 40 or 50 players in the league care enough to vote.
I may just have to go with the "vote in thread" option. I'll make a decision tomorrow.
On August 07 2013 07:07 anklebreak wrote: tossboy is themarine? this is sad. you were c- rank when i left and then 1.5 year later you're worst then you were before. i guess practice everyday back then in ued didn't help at all.
Sup yo,where u been?Also TheMarine is busy and quite lazy.
Democracy shouldnt be the way we make decisions in the league anyway. Its an unacceptable precedent for the league to say a player cant leave and make a new team. Simple as that, really.
On August 07 2013 16:30 Dazed_Spy wrote: Democracy shouldnt be the way we make decisions in the league anyway. Its an unacceptable precedent for the league to say a player cant leave and make a new team. Simple as that, really.
Who said they can't? The poll's supposed to be about. Is a team allowed to split in 2 due to size. Get admins involved I say name and shame the troll voters.
I don't really get what the problem with the team split is. It just seems that people think that it would lead to cheating? Quite frankly, if that's the general sentiment, it's pretty sad and speaks loads about the state of the league... Why can't you just give them the benefit of the doubt and, you know, play? If some wonky business DOES happen (not saying that it would), I believe that L_Master would be able to make an adequate decision and that's that.
As for tonight, I'm not really familiar with him as a player, but after reading a bit around the thread, it seems that he's "good" enough to play in the league.
On August 06 2013 06:56 tonight wrote: I wasn't joking and my high for last maybe 6years(?) has only been C-. I honestly feel I'm no better than the better players in this league. I thought this would be a good place to start playing more and practicing with people because if it's for a team that wants to win in this setting it would force me to learn new maps and practice, but if it's not going to happen I guess it's not going to happen. Even though there are already C- players in the league:[
I don't mind if you play, but if this is anything to go by, you might be somewhat better than the better players around.
edit: I take my remark back. Kaigreene is just 3 spots above you. So I guess you might actually be around the same level as the better guys around here.
Now that you mentioned him, it looks like Kai have risen a lot in rank. 23-5 and 16-1 this season. That's incredibly strong, although the sample size is small.
Honestly, his DRIT games looked really shaky...
I perform horrible under pressure
And I'm far from being too good in this league, Iccup is just really easy...
If iccup is easy for you, then maybe you shouldn't play in this league. This league is meant for ppl who consistently win against red ranks around 35% of the time, maybe stretching up towards 50%. That's what it claims anyway. I know that there are other players who have performed really well on ladder, like arb, but his stats are not this strong, plus his performance in the league have not been top tier. You, on the other hand won the last DRIT, and have been a top performer in the league every single season you have played. If by saying "Iccup is just really easy..." you mean that this is the kind of winrate you typically get, then it's crystal clear that you shouldn't be playing in this league. However, if this is just a good run, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
I just want the rules to be followed.
What happened to your old account? Also,not meaning to insult kai,but i don't think he is above the league's level.maybe a bit under the borderline.
I wanted to change nickname so I had the same nick on TL as on iccup, so it would be easier (especially for new players) to identify me. I have too many posts on ninini to change my nick, so I had to create a new account.
On August 06 2013 06:56 tonight wrote: I wasn't joking and my high for last maybe 6years(?) has only been C-. I honestly feel I'm no better than the better players in this league. I thought this would be a good place to start playing more and practicing with people because if it's for a team that wants to win in this setting it would force me to learn new maps and practice, but if it's not going to happen I guess it's not going to happen. Even though there are already C- players in the league:[
I don't mind if you play, but if this is anything to go by, you might be somewhat better than the better players around.
edit: I take my remark back. Kaigreene is just 3 spots above you. So I guess you might actually be around the same level as the better guys around here.
Now that you mentioned him, it looks like Kai have risen a lot in rank. 23-5 and 16-1 this season. That's incredibly strong, although the sample size is small.
Honestly, his DRIT games looked really shaky...
I perform horrible under pressure
And I'm far from being too good in this league, Iccup is just really easy...
If iccup is easy for you, then maybe you shouldn't play in this league. This league is meant for ppl who consistently win against red ranks around 35% of the time, maybe stretching up towards 50%. That's what it claims anyway. I know that there are other players who have performed really well on ladder, like arb, but his stats are not this strong, plus his performance in the league have not been top tier. You, on the other hand won the last DRIT, and have been a top performer in the league every single season you have played. If by saying "Iccup is just really easy..." you mean that this is the kind of winrate you typically get, then it's crystal clear that you shouldn't be playing in this league. However, if this is just a good run, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
I just want the rules to be followed.
What happened to your old account? Also,not meaning to insult kai,but i don't think he is above the league's level.maybe a bit under the borderline.
Lol marine, you do realise I'm better than you?
And l1ghtning., I understand your point, but I've only participated in drit4 and 5 so not dominant every time I played ;p anyways, I am pretty much floating around D+ and C-n on ladder, but in tournaments Im pretty bad because of the pressure ^^
I don't see the point in comparing yourself with other top players in the league, as there are many players whose peak rank is fairly unknown, and if we freeze all the players in this league and move forward 2 years, then several players will probably be well into the C ranks. My point is that the skill levels of all top players needs to be re-evaluated regularly, and compared with outsiders, to make sure that this stays as a D rank league. That's why we need to look at iccup ladder results. This is not about removing players who are too op, it's about making sure that the league follows its own rules. If you can consistently put out those numbers on iccup, then you shouldn't be playing here, but if you can't, you might/might not be in the skill range for this league, it depends on how great of a difference we're talking about. TheMarine[BG], with 140 games over 3 seasons and a 55% winrate is a good example of the upper range. Anyone who consistently performs better than that shouldn't play here, not according to me, but according to the rules. Obviously you can't just look at winrates, but if there's not enough games for a player to reach his peak rank, it's a good place to start.
Basically as L1ghtning said, players that have been in these leagues for awhile are bound to improve to the point of C-/C. I definitely think people like the captains should all get together and firmly decide on whether certain players are right for the league, regardless of supposedly "flawed" iCCup ranking or TrueSkill.
Yes, it will hurt the league to take some of the strongest players out, if need be, even if they are the most active, but just for the sake of keeping the league active, should we extend the league to D-/D/D+/C-/C leagues?
On August 08 2013 01:33 SynC[gm] wrote: Basically as L1ghtning said, players that have been in these leagues for awhile are bound to improve to the point of C-/C. I definitely think people like the captains should all get together and firmly decide on whether certain players are right for the league, regardless of supposedly "flawed" iCCup ranking or TrueSkill.
Yes, it will hurt the league to take some of the strongest players out, if need be, even if they are the most active, but just for the sake of keeping the league active, should we extend the league to D-/D/D+/C-/C leagues?
I am not aware about all players, but at least from watching the DRIT games, I honestly doubt that there is anyone who could reach C without any kind of abuse like only playing against D-opponents. On the other hand, I feel like there are tons of people who can, more or less easily, reach C-...
On August 08 2013 01:33 SynC[gm] wrote: Basically as L1ghtning said, players that have been in these leagues for awhile are bound to improve to the point of C-/C. I definitely think people like the captains should all get together and firmly decide on whether certain players are right for the league, regardless of supposedly "flawed" iCCup ranking or TrueSkill.
Yes, it will hurt the league to take some of the strongest players out, if need be, even if they are the most active, but just for the sake of keeping the league active, should we extend the league to D-/D/D+/C-/C leagues?
Yes, we should do that. Its pointless to go down on your sword just to 'follow the rules', something we can change at the drop of a hat. Regardless, most of Kais records are against d players. I never drop games to D players, it doesnt make him beyond the threshold of the league.
Yea, no fucking way this poll can be a true reflection.
I'll give people 5 days to vote in the thread if they have an opinion. If this is drastically different than the poll I will take that into consideration.
So, if you have an opinion on a team splitting you need to post here in the thread with a vote of yes or no
It doesnt matter how their players want to have playtime, i will still have fun. It doesnt matter how they cheat to get more money, i will still get it all.
The support for team splitting appears to stem from one assumption: it is any given player's prerogative to choose whether and in what capacity he wants to play, thus he has the right to join and leave teams. The right is basic and I do not contest it.
I do not believe team splitting is a natural manifestation of this right. It in fact limits and dictates a player's options. Consider a situation with teams ABCDEF. If a player on Team A wants to join another team for whatever reason, he would normally have 6 options: join one of the 5 existing teams, or create a new team, whereupon he seeks fellow players in a draft or some other fair format. If Team A undergoes a team split scenario, this preempts that freedom and prescribes his future team and teammates. Of course, the player still retains his right and can exercise it post facto, but since both choices were already made for him he may longer have cause to.
In the SB situation, if every player on the roster was involved via democratic input on the split decision, and they each chose the split as the optimal solution to exercise their rights, then the SB situation is acceptable to me on that front.
I still oppose the practice on principle since I believe choices involving team leaving/joining should begin with the players, not the captains.
tonight is C- max. The league environment involves C- max players being allowed to play. I believe anything less of equal treatment to C- max players is hypocritical and unfair.
Currently we approach the C- membership issue with a grandfather clause: players who played in previous seasons are allowed to continue playing even after reaching C-.
Grandfather clauses tend to be introduced in law in cases where a new provision begins for which there were no such old provisions in the past. They can be justified case by case. However, the practice is also historically rooted in discriminatory laws aimed at disenfranchising African Americans in the US South.
I believe this is also a discriminatory situation, especially since it has protected such a status quo for upwards for 4 seasons. Normally when a grandfather clause eases in the introduction of a new regulation, it is to allow comfortable operation of anything affected until the new regulation can properly take hold in all intended circumstances. I believe the league is past such a point, and it must decide unequivocally whether or not C- is within its scope.
@Echone It doesnt prescribe anything to him unless he voluntarily submits to it, nor does it preclude him creating a new team, though if his current team is simultaneously undergoing an organized split it will dampen his potential player pool. But thats just a contingent scenario, its just as possible the player will be leaving the team prior to any organized team split and will have the ability to entice individual members away from his old team, and other teams.
On August 07 2013 07:07 anklebreak wrote: tossboy is themarine? this is sad. you were c- rank when i left and then 1.5 year later you're worst then you were before. i guess practice everyday back then in ued didn't help at all.
You know what's really sad? That you got to C rank somehow.
On August 08 2013 06:21 Dazed_Spy wrote: @Echone It doesnt prescribe anything to him unless he voluntarily submits to it, nor does it preclude him creating a new team, though if his current team is simultaneously undergoing an organized split it will dampen his potential player pool. But thats just a contingent scenario, its just as possible the player will be leaving the team prior to any organized team split and will have the ability to entice individual members away from his old team, and other teams.
Yes I mentioned specifically that the player still retains his right. Technically, he can choose to do whatever he wants to do whenever he wants to do it. In reality, people tend not to act without impetus.
The nature of leadership and decision making is such that a man will "voluntarily submit" to any number of things should he be convinced they benefit him. Such persuasion is the core of marketing anything from products to presidents. In almost all cases, and likely in this case too, this is sufficient. But it will always differ slightly from a man creating a solution on his own.
On August 08 2013 06:21 Dazed_Spy wrote: @Echone It doesnt prescribe anything to him unless he voluntarily submits to it, nor does it preclude him creating a new team, though if his current team is simultaneously undergoing an organized split it will dampen his potential player pool. But thats just a contingent scenario, its just as possible the player will be leaving the team prior to any organized team split and will have the ability to entice individual members away from his old team, and other teams.
Yes I mentioned specifically that the player still retains his right. Technically, he can choose to do whatever he wants to do whenever he wants to do it. In reality, people tend not to act without impetus.
The nature of leadership and decision making is such that a man will "voluntarily submit" to any number of things should he be convinced they benefit him. Such persuasion is the core of marketing anything from products to presidents. In almost all cases, and likely in this case too, this is sufficient. But it will always differ slightly from a man creating a solution on his own.
So we shouldnt allow team splits because people may be persuaded? Yet somehow if theres a vote, then its legit? As if there wont be persuasion prior to the advent of any democratic team split? Your objection is...pointless.
On August 08 2013 06:21 Dazed_Spy wrote: @Echone It doesnt prescribe anything to him unless he voluntarily submits to it, nor does it preclude him creating a new team, though if his current team is simultaneously undergoing an organized split it will dampen his potential player pool. But thats just a contingent scenario, its just as possible the player will be leaving the team prior to any organized team split and will have the ability to entice individual members away from his old team, and other teams.
Yes I mentioned specifically that the player still retains his right. Technically, he can choose to do whatever he wants to do whenever he wants to do it. In reality, people tend not to act without impetus.
The nature of leadership and decision making is such that a man will "voluntarily submit" to any number of things should he be convinced they benefit him. Such persuasion is the core of marketing anything from products to presidents. In almost all cases, and likely in this case too, this is sufficient. But it will always differ slightly from a man creating a solution on his own.
So we shouldnt allow team splits because people may be persuaded? Yet somehow if theres a vote, then its legit? As if there wont be persuasion prior to the advent of any democratic team split? Your objection is...pointless.
A captain telling his players to do a thing carries its own persuasive power. For instance, as a captain I could...
tell KazeHydra to play even though he is D- and thinks he will lose. tell Nagisama to get me replays even though that has nothing to do with him. tell Sentenal to express good manners even though he's in a heated argument.
and they will be inclined to do these things (even though other inclinations may prevail.) They still have every right to act however they want, but because I told them to do something, my proposed action now occupies part of their thoughts. The course of events (Birdie proposing the split as 2 SBs, Birdie reframing the issue as a double roster and finally as a team split after confrontation, Birdie detailing that he specifically "asked nicely" of each of his players to do this) suggests to me that we have a captain masterminding the decisions of his players.
If TheMarine, Arca, and their players were arguing with me about their grievances with SB and how they just need to leave, that would suggest something more along the lines of players exercising their will vs a captain exercising his will over his players.
This goes back to the argument last season regarding letting puppykiller into the league. If it ends up yes, then puppykiller should also be allowed into the league.
The support for team splitting appears to stem from one assumption: it is any given player's prerogative to choose whether and in what capacity he wants to play, thus he has the right to join and leave teams. The right is basic and I do not contest it.
I do not believe team splitting is a natural manifestation of this right. It in fact limits and dictates a player's options. Consider a situation with teams ABCDEF. If a player on Team A wants to join another team for whatever reason, he would normally have 6 options: join one of the 5 existing teams, or create a new team, whereupon he seeks fellow players in a draft or some other fair format. If Team A undergoes a team split scenario, this preempts that freedom and prescribes his future team and teammates. Of course, the player still retains his right and can exercise it post facto, but since both choices were already made for him he may longer have cause to.
In the SB situation, if every player on the roster was involved via democratic input on the split decision, and they each chose the split as the optimal solution to exercise their rights, then the SB situation is acceptable to me on that front.
I still oppose the practice on principle since I believe choices involving team leaving/joining should begin with the players, not the captains.
If any player is not satisfied with such a decision, they can object it. If they are so opposed to it, players can decide to leave. Your example about a player's options for joining a team is not appropriate either. In the current situation, it's not about players wanting to leave the team for good. You also neglect to acknowledge the social dynamics within the team: e.g. players that are good friends prefering to split together rather than joining other teams.
Ultimately, Birdie is neither a king nor a wizard. He certainly doesn't have any power over his players other than making suggestions.
On August 08 2013 07:56 ggrrg wrote: In the current situation, it's not about players wanting to leave the team for good.
They don't want to leave their team, yet they want to make another team?
Yes, because players ABC want to play together.
In your example, you assume that one player leaves his team. Here, a bunch of players who want to play together are involved.
Players ABC want to play together. Players ABC are already on the same team. They are also in the state of "not wanting to leave the team for good." ABC are closely associated with their original team and already play together. This is a great situation, and often teams with huge rosters are happy with this situation, as evidenced by super-teams in previous seasons like TAKK or mSj or NW, with rosters around 3 times as large as a lineup.
The ostensible problem was: the team has too many players, so players ABC feel in danger of being benched more often. Leaving aside the issue of "bench" as a perfectly legitimate practice in sports, let's see how they can solve this problem.
Perhaps it goes something like this: ABC realized the issue and discussed it amongst themselves and decided that perhaps they should all create a new team together. They take it to their captain, who approves and informs the forum that a number of his players are leaving to form a new team. That could've been the case with SB, and I'd be fine with it!
Instead the announcement began with: "Hey can we have an SB 1 and an SB 2?" from the captain of SB. This is followed by much arguing and backpedaling into the current announcement of, "SB is recruiting players and once it has enough players for two teams, ABC will leave and form a new team." If SB already has enough players for one team, why does it need to recruit more? What about the rest of the teams in the league who are relying on being able to recruit some of these players to function? If ABC remain on SB, doesn't that mean the current SB team already fulfills their needs? If getting "benched" were such an unacceptable problem, wouldn't they have left already?
On August 08 2013 07:56 ggrrg wrote: In the current situation, it's not about players wanting to leave the team for good.
They don't want to leave their team, yet they want to make another team?
Yes, because players ABC want to play together.
In your example, you assume that one player leaves his team. Here, a bunch of players who want to play together are involved.
Instead the announcement began with: "Hey can we have an SB 1 and an SB 2?" from the captain of SB. This is followed by much arguing and backpedaling into the current announcement of, "SB is recruiting players and once it has enough players for two teams, ABC will leave and form a new team." If SB already has enough players for one team, why does it need to recruit more? What about the rest of the teams in the league who are relying on being able to recruit some of these players to function? If ABC remain on SB, doesn't that mean the current SB team already fulfills their needs? If getting "benched" were such an unacceptable problem, wouldn't they have left already?
Firstly, you call it "backpedaling" but that's quite a loaded term. If you're suggesting that I SHOULDN'T have changed my opinion on the situation and that I should have stuck with trying for two sB teams then you're basically saying people shouldn't change their minds in arguments, which defeats the purpose of debate in the first place. I changed my mind about what I want, and that's a good thing.
We have MORE than enough players for one team, which is where the problem lies. We need to recruit one more to facilitate the split such that we have at last 7 players on each team, which means that both teams should be capable of lasting the entire season.
As I've said OVER AND OVER AGAIN, the players I recruited weren't going to join the league anyway, so there's no "rest of the teams relying on recruiting some of those players". That was never going to happen for most of them. Any players I recruit are "bonus" players that the league would otherwise not have; I'm not somehow denying players from other teams. I'm promoting league growth, not hindering it.
Whereas quite frankly Courage wanting to leave over the issue strikes me as a childish response to a situation where the league isn't quite doing things as they want it to happen. I mean this with all due respect, and I do respect Courage as a team, but I think that throwing the toys out of the cot is not the correct response to things not going the way you want them to. That's hindering league growth, not promoting it.
Team split vote tally. Votes Yes (8): Birdie dazed_spy DarkNetHunter art_of_turtle greenelve Biolunar Babo (NOT PLAYING AFAIK) RulZBoooM (ggrrg)
Votes No (8): Cpt.Beefy (AtomicArchon) ImAtTheBeach EchOne Sentenal Squishy Gao Xi (Shuruken) NOT PLAYING AFAIK Nagisama aeghrur (ghrur)
On August 07 2013 07:07 anklebreak wrote: tossboy is themarine? this is sad. you were c- rank when i left and then 1.5 year later you're worst then you were before. i guess practice everyday back then in ued didn't help at all.
You know what's really sad? That you got to C rank somehow.
Best post in this entire debate. By far.
Debate about Team Spit and all of a sudden, bam! ninazerg.
Edit: I vote yes on tonight. I don't care much for Team Spit. I just wish we could all get along and hug and kiss and live happily ever after.
On August 08 2013 08:47 Birdie wrote: Firstly, you call it "backpedaling" but that's quite a loaded term. If you're suggesting that I SHOULDN'T have changed my opinion on the situation and that I should have stuck with trying for two sB teams then you're basically saying people shouldn't change their minds in arguments, which defeats the purpose of debate in the first place. I changed my mind about what I want, and that's a good thing.
I noted your initial stance to illustrate how your initiative looked to me as a reader of the thread. You first brought it up with a poll that even suggested running a single roster. I'm glad you're of a flexible mind on this. I just wanted to show how being informed of the team split like this differs drastically than from if TheMarine and Arca had posted telling us they wanted to captain a separate team.
We have MORE than enough players for one team, which is where the problem lies. We need to recruit one more to facilitate the split such that we have at last 7 players on each team, which means that both teams should be capable of lasting the entire season.
So you have more than 7 and less than 14 players? Well it looks like that team will fit right in with 75% of the teams from DRTL4, who also had more than 7 and less than 14 players.
As I've said OVER AND OVER AGAIN, the players I recruited weren't going to join the league anyway, so there's no "rest of the teams relying on recruiting some of those players". That was never going to happen for most of them. Any players I recruit are "bonus" players that the league would otherwise not have; I'm not somehow denying players from other teams. I'm promoting league growth, not hindering it.
Fair enough.
Whereas quite frankly Courage wanting to leave over the issue strikes me as a childish response to a situation where the league isn't quite doing things as they want it to happen. I mean this with all due respect, and I do respect Courage as a team, but I think that throwing the toys out of the cot is not the correct response to things not going the way you want them to. That's hindering league growth, not promoting it.
You tell me about a loaded word and then tell me about how my entire team is childish with infant crib imagery for added style points? First of all, only Sentenal and I have expressed any desire to stop playing in the league. Please do not extend whatever defamation you feel compelled to throw around to Courage. Second of all, just as a player has the right to leave his team, a player also has the right to not participate in an event.
On August 08 2013 06:21 Dazed_Spy wrote: @Echone It doesnt prescribe anything to him unless he voluntarily submits to it, nor does it preclude him creating a new team, though if his current team is simultaneously undergoing an organized split it will dampen his potential player pool. But thats just a contingent scenario, its just as possible the player will be leaving the team prior to any organized team split and will have the ability to entice individual members away from his old team, and other teams.
Yes I mentioned specifically that the player still retains his right. Technically, he can choose to do whatever he wants to do whenever he wants to do it. In reality, people tend not to act without impetus.
The nature of leadership and decision making is such that a man will "voluntarily submit" to any number of things should he be convinced they benefit him. Such persuasion is the core of marketing anything from products to presidents. In almost all cases, and likely in this case too, this is sufficient. But it will always differ slightly from a man creating a solution on his own.
So we shouldnt allow team splits because people may be persuaded? Yet somehow if theres a vote, then its legit? As if there wont be persuasion prior to the advent of any democratic team split? Your objection is...pointless.
A captain telling his players to do a thing carries its own persuasive power. For instance, as a captain I could...
tell KazeHydra to play even though he is D- and thinks he will lose. tell Nagisama to get me replays even though that has nothing to do with him. tell Sentenal to express good manners even though he's in a heated argument.
and they will be inclined to do these things (even though other inclinations may prevail.) They still have every right to act however they want, but because I told them to do something, my proposed action now occupies part of their thoughts. The course of events (Birdie proposing the split as 2 SBs, Birdie reframing the issue as a double roster and finally as a team split after confrontation, Birdie detailing that he specifically "asked nicely" of each of his players to do this) suggests to me that we have a captain masterminding the decisions of his players.
If TheMarine, Arca, and their players were arguing with me about their grievances with SB and how they just need to leave, that would suggest something more along the lines of players exercising their will vs a captain exercising his will over his players.
Why would you need a greviance to leave a team? I dont think RedAxis is bitter over TAKK, yet he left just a few days ago. Marine/Arca may simply see the positives of a new team [command, organization, more play time for everyone] to outweigh the negatives of leaving.
Regardless, your comments on the inherent persuasive power of authority is again largely trivial, because its nothing more than a complaint about the inherent ways in which humans interact and come to decisions. Authority [perceived or real] will always have some charisma to it, so to speak, but I dont see how it delegitimizes the voluntary nature of this situation. And if it does, then it impugns all human interaction because at the end of the day, what relationship is without perceived authority? None.
So in other news, here are the free agents that has actually signed up on the thread. I'm under the assumption that no free agents that has signed up has been picked up by any other team.
On August 08 2013 07:56 ggrrg wrote: In the current situation, it's not about players wanting to leave the team for good.
They don't want to leave their team, yet they want to make another team?
Yes, because players ABC want to play together.
In your example, you assume that one player leaves his team. Here, a bunch of players who want to play together are involved.
Players ABC want to play together. Players ABC are already on the same team. They are also in the state of "not wanting to leave the team for good." ABC are closely associated with their original team and already play together. This is a great situation, and often teams with huge rosters are happy with this situation, as evidenced by super-teams in previous seasons like TAKK or mSj or NW, with rosters around 3 times as large as a lineup.
The ostensible problem was: the team has too many players, so players ABC feel in danger of being benched more often. Leaving aside the issue of "bench" as a perfectly legitimate practice in sports, let's see how they can solve this problem.
Perhaps it goes something like this: ABC realized the issue and discussed it amongst themselves and decided that perhaps they should all create a new team together. They take it to their captain, who approves and informs the forum that a number of his players are leaving to form a new team. That could've been the case with SB, and I'd be fine with it!
Instead the announcement began with: "Hey can we have an SB 1 and an SB 2?" from the captain of SB. This is followed by much arguing and backpedaling into the current announcement of, "SB is recruiting players and once it has enough players for two teams, ABC will leave and form a new team." If SB already has enough players for one team, why does it need to recruit more? What about the rest of the teams in the league who are relying on being able to recruit some of these players to function? If ABC remain on SB, doesn't that mean the current SB team already fulfills their needs? If getting "benched" were such an unacceptable problem, wouldn't they have left already?
You read my mind
If there' s too many birds in one nest, some of the birds have to leave and build there own nest, if their objective is to be independent from their original bird nest. No one can build it for them. Otherwise they will always turn back to the mother bird if they have a problem. These birds need to learn how to fly on their own, if they wish to form a family of their own and fly around and whatnot. Its noble to try and help them, but in the long term it will only create a co-dependence relationship. There would be nothing wrong with this per-se , but one must take into consideration the outside world and the fact that these birds are living in a forest and are going to have to interact with many other birds. The best thing would be to teach them if they ask for help, instruct them and advise them with the experience accumuated. But teaching is not deciding for them, not building for them, not getting things for them, not conditioning them (even without counsciously knowing of doing so) If they are missing a twig to build the nest, it cannot be provided by someone else, they have to find it. They have to look for it, pick it up, bring it back to the base.
On August 08 2013 06:21 Dazed_Spy wrote: @Echone It doesnt prescribe anything to him unless he voluntarily submits to it, nor does it preclude him creating a new team, though if his current team is simultaneously undergoing an organized split it will dampen his potential player pool. But thats just a contingent scenario, its just as possible the player will be leaving the team prior to any organized team split and will have the ability to entice individual members away from his old team, and other teams.
Yes I mentioned specifically that the player still retains his right. Technically, he can choose to do whatever he wants to do whenever he wants to do it. In reality, people tend not to act without impetus.
The nature of leadership and decision making is such that a man will "voluntarily submit" to any number of things should he be convinced they benefit him. Such persuasion is the core of marketing anything from products to presidents. In almost all cases, and likely in this case too, this is sufficient. But it will always differ slightly from a man creating a solution on his own.
So we shouldnt allow team splits because people may be persuaded? Yet somehow if theres a vote, then its legit? As if there wont be persuasion prior to the advent of any democratic team split? Your objection is...pointless.
A captain telling his players to do a thing carries its own persuasive power. For instance, as a captain I could...
tell KazeHydra to play even though he is D- and thinks he will lose. tell Nagisama to get me replays even though that has nothing to do with him. tell Sentenal to express good manners even though he's in a heated argument.
and they will be inclined to do these things (even though other inclinations may prevail.) They still have every right to act however they want, but because I told them to do something, my proposed action now occupies part of their thoughts. The course of events (Birdie proposing the split as 2 SBs, Birdie reframing the issue as a double roster and finally as a team split after confrontation, Birdie detailing that he specifically "asked nicely" of each of his players to do this) suggests to me that we have a captain masterminding the decisions of his players.
If TheMarine, Arca, and their players were arguing with me about their grievances with SB and how they just need to leave, that would suggest something more along the lines of players exercising their will vs a captain exercising his will over his players.
Why would you need a greviance to leave a team? I dont think RedAxis is bitter over TAKK, yet he left just a few days ago. Marine/Arca may simply see the positives of a new team [command, organization, more play time for everyone] to outweigh the negatives of staying behind.
Regardless, your comments on the inherent persuasive power of authority is again largely trivial, because its nothing more than a complaint about the inherent ways in which humans interact and come to decisions. Authority [perceived or real] will always have some charisma to it, so to speak, but I dont see how it delegitimizes the voluntary nature of this situation. And if it does, then it impugns all human interaction because at the end of the day, what relationship is without perceived authority? None.
RedAxis told me of at least one grievance. I will leave it at that.
I have not witnessed Marine/Arca reveal their decision making on this with any positives / negatives matrix.
Voluntarily assenting to the request of an authority is different from independently conceiving and undertaking an action. I already mentioned the formation of Team Courage as a counterexample where we split with our original team entirely of our own accord.
Everyone has some ability to influence someone else and we can call that authority. However disparities in authority are not always pronounced and not always codified, as in languages with honorific tiers or organizations with explicit authoritative titles. A man is at far more of a disadvantage in interactions with his head honcho than with a drinking buddy of same age and status.
On August 08 2013 06:21 Dazed_Spy wrote: @Echone It doesnt prescribe anything to him unless he voluntarily submits to it, nor does it preclude him creating a new team, though if his current team is simultaneously undergoing an organized split it will dampen his potential player pool. But thats just a contingent scenario, its just as possible the player will be leaving the team prior to any organized team split and will have the ability to entice individual members away from his old team, and other teams.
Yes I mentioned specifically that the player still retains his right. Technically, he can choose to do whatever he wants to do whenever he wants to do it. In reality, people tend not to act without impetus.
The nature of leadership and decision making is such that a man will "voluntarily submit" to any number of things should he be convinced they benefit him. Such persuasion is the core of marketing anything from products to presidents. In almost all cases, and likely in this case too, this is sufficient. But it will always differ slightly from a man creating a solution on his own.
So we shouldnt allow team splits because people may be persuaded? Yet somehow if theres a vote, then its legit? As if there wont be persuasion prior to the advent of any democratic team split? Your objection is...pointless.
A captain telling his players to do a thing carries its own persuasive power. For instance, as a captain I could...
tell KazeHydra to play even though he is D- and thinks he will lose. tell Nagisama to get me replays even though that has nothing to do with him. tell Sentenal to express good manners even though he's in a heated argument.
and they will be inclined to do these things (even though other inclinations may prevail.) They still have every right to act however they want, but because I told them to do something, my proposed action now occupies part of their thoughts. The course of events (Birdie proposing the split as 2 SBs, Birdie reframing the issue as a double roster and finally as a team split after confrontation, Birdie detailing that he specifically "asked nicely" of each of his players to do this) suggests to me that we have a captain masterminding the decisions of his players.
If TheMarine, Arca, and their players were arguing with me about their grievances with SB and how they just need to leave, that would suggest something more along the lines of players exercising their will vs a captain exercising his will over his players.
Why would you need a greviance to leave a team? I dont think RedAxis is bitter over TAKK, yet he left just a few days ago. Marine/Arca may simply see the positives of a new team [command, organization, more play time for everyone] to outweigh the negatives of staying behind.
Regardless, your comments on the inherent persuasive power of authority is again largely trivial, because its nothing more than a complaint about the inherent ways in which humans interact and come to decisions. Authority [perceived or real] will always have some charisma to it, so to speak, but I dont see how it delegitimizes the voluntary nature of this situation. And if it does, then it impugns all human interaction because at the end of the day, what relationship is without perceived authority? None.
RedAxis told me of at least one grievance. I will leave it at that.
I have not witnessed Marine/Arca reveal their decision making on this with any positives / negatives matrix.
Voluntarily assenting to the request of an authority is different from independently conceiving and undertaking an action. I already mentioned the formation of Team Courage as a counterexample where we split with our original team entirely of our own accord.
Everyone has some ability to influence someone else and we can call that authority. However disparities in authority are not always pronounced and not always codified, as in languages with honorific tiers or organizations with explicit authoritative titles. A man is at far more of a disadvantage in interactions with his head honcho than with a drinking buddy of same age and status.
greenelve knows of my grievance... HE IS THY REASON I LEFT.
On August 08 2013 06:21 Dazed_Spy wrote: @Echone It doesnt prescribe anything to him unless he voluntarily submits to it, nor does it preclude him creating a new team, though if his current team is simultaneously undergoing an organized split it will dampen his potential player pool. But thats just a contingent scenario, its just as possible the player will be leaving the team prior to any organized team split and will have the ability to entice individual members away from his old team, and other teams.
Yes I mentioned specifically that the player still retains his right. Technically, he can choose to do whatever he wants to do whenever he wants to do it. In reality, people tend not to act without impetus.
The nature of leadership and decision making is such that a man will "voluntarily submit" to any number of things should he be convinced they benefit him. Such persuasion is the core of marketing anything from products to presidents. In almost all cases, and likely in this case too, this is sufficient. But it will always differ slightly from a man creating a solution on his own.
So we shouldnt allow team splits because people may be persuaded? Yet somehow if theres a vote, then its legit? As if there wont be persuasion prior to the advent of any democratic team split? Your objection is...pointless.
A captain telling his players to do a thing carries its own persuasive power. For instance, as a captain I could...
tell KazeHydra to play even though he is D- and thinks he will lose. tell Nagisama to get me replays even though that has nothing to do with him. tell Sentenal to express good manners even though he's in a heated argument.
and they will be inclined to do these things (even though other inclinations may prevail.) They still have every right to act however they want, but because I told them to do something, my proposed action now occupies part of their thoughts. The course of events (Birdie proposing the split as 2 SBs, Birdie reframing the issue as a double roster and finally as a team split after confrontation, Birdie detailing that he specifically "asked nicely" of each of his players to do this) suggests to me that we have a captain masterminding the decisions of his players.
If TheMarine, Arca, and their players were arguing with me about their grievances with SB and how they just need to leave, that would suggest something more along the lines of players exercising their will vs a captain exercising his will over his players.
Why would you need a greviance to leave a team? I dont think RedAxis is bitter over TAKK, yet he left just a few days ago. Marine/Arca may simply see the positives of a new team [command, organization, more play time for everyone] to outweigh the negatives of staying behind.
Regardless, your comments on the inherent persuasive power of authority is again largely trivial, because its nothing more than a complaint about the inherent ways in which humans interact and come to decisions. Authority [perceived or real] will always have some charisma to it, so to speak, but I dont see how it delegitimizes the voluntary nature of this situation. And if it does, then it impugns all human interaction because at the end of the day, what relationship is without perceived authority? None.
RedAxis told me of at least one grievance. I will leave it at that.
I have not witnessed Marine/Arca reveal their decision making on this with any positives / negatives matrix.
Voluntarily assenting to the request of an authority is different from independently conceiving and undertaking an action. I already mentioned the formation of Team Courage as a counterexample where we split with our original team entirely of our own accord.
Everyone has some ability to influence someone else and we can call that authority. However disparities in authority are not always pronounced and not always codified, as in languages with honorific tiers or organizations with explicit authoritative titles. A man is at far more of a disadvantage in interactions with his head honcho than with a drinking buddy of same age and status.
They have already stated they're leaving because they desire a leadership role and the team is too big, I dont see how you could of failed to have seen that.
And if your really intimating that the degree of authority and pressure theoretically exerted by a faceless team capitain of a casually played RTS is sufficient to make the freeness of their choice questionable, you have lept well beyond the ridiculously absurd.
On August 08 2013 06:21 Dazed_Spy wrote: @Echone It doesnt prescribe anything to him unless he voluntarily submits to it, nor does it preclude him creating a new team, though if his current team is simultaneously undergoing an organized split it will dampen his potential player pool. But thats just a contingent scenario, its just as possible the player will be leaving the team prior to any organized team split and will have the ability to entice individual members away from his old team, and other teams.
Yes I mentioned specifically that the player still retains his right. Technically, he can choose to do whatever he wants to do whenever he wants to do it. In reality, people tend not to act without impetus.
The nature of leadership and decision making is such that a man will "voluntarily submit" to any number of things should he be convinced they benefit him. Such persuasion is the core of marketing anything from products to presidents. In almost all cases, and likely in this case too, this is sufficient. But it will always differ slightly from a man creating a solution on his own.
So we shouldnt allow team splits because people may be persuaded? Yet somehow if theres a vote, then its legit? As if there wont be persuasion prior to the advent of any democratic team split? Your objection is...pointless.
A captain telling his players to do a thing carries its own persuasive power. For instance, as a captain I could...
tell KazeHydra to play even though he is D- and thinks he will lose. tell Nagisama to get me replays even though that has nothing to do with him. tell Sentenal to express good manners even though he's in a heated argument.
and they will be inclined to do these things (even though other inclinations may prevail.) They still have every right to act however they want, but because I told them to do something, my proposed action now occupies part of their thoughts. The course of events (Birdie proposing the split as 2 SBs, Birdie reframing the issue as a double roster and finally as a team split after confrontation, Birdie detailing that he specifically "asked nicely" of each of his players to do this) suggests to me that we have a captain masterminding the decisions of his players.
If TheMarine, Arca, and their players were arguing with me about their grievances with SB and how they just need to leave, that would suggest something more along the lines of players exercising their will vs a captain exercising his will over his players.
Why would you need a greviance to leave a team? I dont think RedAxis is bitter over TAKK, yet he left just a few days ago. Marine/Arca may simply see the positives of a new team [command, organization, more play time for everyone] to outweigh the negatives of staying behind.
Regardless, your comments on the inherent persuasive power of authority is again largely trivial, because its nothing more than a complaint about the inherent ways in which humans interact and come to decisions. Authority [perceived or real] will always have some charisma to it, so to speak, but I dont see how it delegitimizes the voluntary nature of this situation. And if it does, then it impugns all human interaction because at the end of the day, what relationship is without perceived authority? None.
RedAxis told me of at least one grievance. I will leave it at that.
I have not witnessed Marine/Arca reveal their decision making on this with any positives / negatives matrix.
Voluntarily assenting to the request of an authority is different from independently conceiving and undertaking an action. I already mentioned the formation of Team Courage as a counterexample where we split with our original team entirely of our own accord.
Everyone has some ability to influence someone else and we can call that authority. However disparities in authority are not always pronounced and not always codified, as in languages with honorific tiers or organizations with explicit authoritative titles. A man is at far more of a disadvantage in interactions with his head honcho than with a drinking buddy of same age and status.
They have already stated they're leaving because they desire a leadership role and the team is too big, I dont see how you could of failed to have seen that.
And if your really intimating that the degree of authority and pressure theoretically exerted by a faceless team capitain of a casually played RTS is sufficient to make the freeness of their choice questionable, you have lept well beyond the ridiculously absurd.
All I can find in the thread is this:
Stop being butthurt for 1 minute and listen.Arca/Me are going to captain the other team seperatly without birdie's guidance/commands/help. Jesus Christ,i'd have an easier time winning an argument against a brick wall than winning it against you.
And nothing from Arca. I just want to be convinced that they independently thought this through, arrayed their reasons, and decided to do this without being pushed by Birdie.
Of course DRTL captain is like nothing in the grand scheme of things. But in the small small scope of DRTL, if a player is unsure and wants guidance, where does he go? The topic starter? His captain? The person who recruited him? Maybe he just says "Fuck it" and doesn't seek any counsel, making his decision, announcing it, clarifying it, whatever, by himself.
On August 08 2013 01:33 SynC[gm] wrote: Basically as L1ghtning said, players that have been in these leagues for awhile are bound to improve to the point of C-/C. I definitely think people like the captains should all get together and firmly decide on whether certain players are right for the league, regardless of supposedly "flawed" iCCup ranking or TrueSkill.
Yes, it will hurt the league to take some of the strongest players out, if need be, even if they are the most active, but just for the sake of keeping the league active, should we extend the league to D-/D/D+/C-/C leagues?
Yes, we should do that. Its pointless to go down on your sword just to 'follow the rules', something we can change at the drop of a hat. Regardless, most of Kais records are against d players. I never drop games to D players, it doesnt make him beyond the threshold of the league.
Edit: I vote YES on splitting the teams.
I can understand the desire to expand the league for activity's sake but as a D- player with a 0% winrate in the league (think I'm 0-7), I'd feel there's really no place for me once you start including solid C-/C players. If you want to drop all the weak players in favor of stronger ones I guess sure but sucks for us.
No on splitting teams.
On sB split regardless of your opinon; things to consider: 1a) are 7 members enough to ensure 5 players can be fielded weekly and a minimal number of pp's/delays? 1b) does sB deserve to get in on the draft (or at least have an equal share) despite purposely splitting into small teams? 2) what is the number of teams we have playing? we don't want an odd number if possible 3) time limit on the decision please? Unless I missed something, Birdie is still trying to recruit enough to do the split, which means even if this voting "passes" it still might not happen? Too much uncertainty here with little time remaining.
On August 08 2013 08:47 Birdie wrote: Whereas quite frankly Courage wanting to leave over the issue strikes me as a childish response to a situation where the league isn't quite doing things as they want it to happen. I mean this with all due respect, and I do respect Courage as a team, but I think that throwing the toys out of the cot is not the correct response to things not going the way you want them to. That's hindering league growth, not promoting it.
This is a load of bullshit. I have no obligation to play in this league. Neither does my team. I have no vested interest at all in "league growth" or promoting the league. I'm not an admin, I don't help run it. I do have a vested interest in "enjoying myself in a fair, competitive environment for BW". And if I think that interest is no longer satisfied by something here, and there is no way to rectify it, then I'll quit. Not wanting to play in a league that we don't like is not childish, it is rational.
And just to let you know, Birdie, posts like this, or your last adventure on our IRC, are a strong contributing reasons as to why things have exploded like this. Saying "with all due respect" doesn't magically make your insult go away.
On August 08 2013 09:14 SynC[gm] wrote: So in other news, here are the free agents that has actually signed up on the thread. I'm under the assumption that no free agents that has signed up has been picked up by any other team.
You tell me about a loaded word and then tell me about how my entire team is childish with infant crib imagery for added style points? First of all, only Sentenal and I have expressed any desire to stop playing in the league. Please do not extend whatever defamation you feel compelled to throw around to Courage. Second of all, just as a player has the right to leave his team, a player also has the right to not participate in an event.
My words were childish too and I shouldn't have said them, no matter how I feel about the situation. I apologize for that. I will say that I don't think that quitting the league is the best response in this situation though. Sentenal said that Courage as a team isn't entering if the split is allowed to happen, I assume that to mean everyone in the team. Players are quite welcome to not participate in the event, of course. Doesn't mean that I can't disapprove of their reasons for leaving the event.
So by Friday, hopefully, everything will be resolved or situated.
The number of teams that will be participating in DRTL5.
Whether Stealth Bunnies will be allowed to split into two teams. In expansion, whether TheMarine and Arca(Crema) can leave Stealth Bunnies to form another team.
Free agents drafted
How many weeks of games throughout the regular season.
way too much drama about team splitting. I think you guys discussed it over 12 pages easy instead of focusing on making sure new players have no problem with joining a team and the draft. Imo, I can understand why no team split but at the same time, there is no incentive to cheat so I'm on the fence there.
On August 08 2013 09:31 SynC[gm] wrote: greenelve knows of my grievance... HE IS THY REASON I LEFT.
greenelve2, shame upon thy.
Excellent, everything is working according to the plan. Now, with the longingly expected arrival of greenelve3, we are coming closer to a pure greenelve clan to rule D Ranks.
On August 08 2013 17:03 BigFan wrote: way too much drama about team splitting. I think you guys discussed it over 12 pages easy instead of focusing on making sure new players have no problem with joining a team and the draft. Imo, I can understand why no team split but at the same time, there is no incentive to cheat so I'm on the fence there.
This is probably why they don't ever improve past C- rank, lol ^^
On August 08 2013 17:03 BigFan wrote: way too much drama about team splitting. I think you guys discussed it over 12 pages easy instead of focusing on making sure new players have no problem with joining a team and the draft. Imo, I can understand why no team split but at the same time, there is no incentive to cheat so I'm on the fence there.
This is probably why they don't ever improve past C- rank, lol ^^
Olympic rank in Drama League though.
lol. There's just way too much drama for what is supposed to be a 'fun' team league with nothing on the line. Your team wins? Great. Team loses? no biggie, just try harder next time and practice more(if you can). Can't say much on the C- rank since I'm only D and dunno how hard it is to get C- but it's quite possible that's the reason XD
That was one of the main issues since DRTL S1. Someone comes up with a minor problem and makes a big fucking elephant out of it.
Really, thats so stupid and tbh no one should care about these drama queens.
LMaster is the organisator of this league and he decides. If Courage are Sissys and do not want to participate anymore, fine. GTFO..
Seriously. Thats why I was in some decission such a dictator-orga in DRATL. There will be always someone who is pissed. If Lmaster decides not to teamsplit then sB will be pissed, if he does then Courage will be pissed.
But tbh Courage was the one bringing this whole ridiculous cheating stuff in this thread. As if someone as dedicated as Birdie would try to cheat in a funleague. Thats just a stupid assumption, period.
MeSiJa team accept challenge in season 5 our roster mSj[abitStar] (C rank) captain players mSj[holy] D+ mSj[fury] D+ mSj[prokaznik] D+ mSj[R2D2] D mSj[naxel] D+ mSj[krudus] D mSj[duxx] D+ mSj[Mr.LiR] D+ mSj[Magic] D mSj[Ervin] D mSj[Eevy] D
On August 09 2013 02:19 abit wrote: MeSiJa team accept challenge in season 5 our roster mSj[abitStar] (C rank) captain players mSj[holy] D+ mSj[fury] D+ mSj[prokaznik] D+ mSj[R2D2] D mSj[naxel] D+ mSj[krudus] D mSj[duxx] D+ mSj[Mr.LiR] D+ mSj[Magic] D mSj[Ervin] D mSj[Eevy] D
hi all, my previous highs have been D, so although I've prolly gotten a bit better from playing sc2 the past two seasons, I'm still quite Dish. Rank: D/D+ Iccup ID: dcemberzerg http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/gamingprofile/dcembrzerg.html Race: Zerg probably but I might change it I dunno I met sB.Birdie in op teamliquid, and he told me to sign up in case you are wondering. Thanks.
On August 09 2013 03:14 dcemberzerg wrote: hi all, my previous highs have been D, so although I've prolly gotten a bit better from playing sc2 the past two seasons, I'm still quite Dish. Rank: D/D+ Iccup ID: dcemberzerg http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/gamingprofile/dcembrzerg.html Race: Zerg probably but I might change it I dunno I met sB.Birdie in op teamliquid, and he told me to sign up in case you are wondering. Thanks.
Welcome aboard dcemberzerg, you'll get drafted onto a team as soon as the draft occurs. Check your teamliquid account for PMs regarding which team you got drafted onto!
To all you D scrubs who stir up all this drama, why don't you shut your noob ass mouth and ladder in the amount of time that you babble about useless bullshit.
On August 09 2013 06:34 SlowBullets wrote: To all you D scrubs who stir up all this drama, why don't you shut your noob ass mouth and ladder in the amount of time that you babble about useless bullshit.
Maybe this is why you guys are so trash.
GG NO RE
User was warned for this post
Stir up drama? I try to stay out of it.
That said, as league organizer I think it is reasonable to say that it is my job to investigate if people I have evidence that someone is cheating. If you were wondering, it was ICCup.Gen who contacted me explaining the IPs matched. I know you guys live at the same place, but would be failing miserably in my job if I completely ignored a possible situation.
To all you D scrubs who stir up all this drama,
While the drama does get pretty annoying, I could certainly turn this statement around on you and ask why you play for friends of yours in a D tournament. That doesn't make sense either, and makes this comment pretty ironic. It's like you're bitching at randoms for uncovering you breaking rules. Not much ground to bitch there.
On August 09 2013 06:34 SlowBullets wrote: To all you D scrubs who stir up all this drama, why don't you shut your noob ass mouth and ladder in the amount of time that you babble about useless bullshit.
On August 09 2013 06:34 SlowBullets wrote: To all you D scrubs who stir up all this drama, why don't you shut your noob ass mouth and ladder in the amount of time that you babble about useless bullshit.
On August 09 2013 06:34 SlowBullets wrote: To all you D scrubs who stir up all this drama, why don't you shut your noob ass mouth and ladder in the amount of time that you babble about useless bullshit.
On August 09 2013 06:34 SlowBullets wrote: To all you D scrubs who stir up all this drama, why don't you shut your noob ass mouth and ladder in the amount of time that you babble about useless bullshit.
Maybe this is why you guys are so trash.
GG NO RE
User was warned for this post
Maybe if you spent this time trying to cheat in D leagues and talk shit to them you could have improved instead.
On August 09 2013 06:34 SlowBullets wrote: To all you D scrubs who stir up all this drama, why don't you shut your noob ass mouth and ladder in the amount of time that you babble about useless bullshit.
Maybe this is why you guys are so trash.
GG NO RE
User was warned for this post
Maybe if you didn't spent this time trying to cheat in D leagues and talk shit to them you could have improved instead.
On August 08 2013 17:03 BigFan wrote: way too much drama about team splitting. I think you guys discussed it over 12 pages easy instead of focusing on making sure new players have no problem with joining a team and the draft. Imo, I can understand why no team split but at the same time, there is no incentive to cheat so I'm on the fence there.
This is probably why they don't ever improve past C- rank, lol ^^
Olympic rank in Drama League though.
Hahahahahaha, this post is hilarious. This is the best present to come home to. Slowbullets getting perm'd. My anger is now gone.
On August 09 2013 02:19 abit wrote: MeSiJa team accept challenge in season 5 our roster mSj[abitStar] (C rank) captain players mSj[holy] D+ mSj[fury] D+ mSj[prokaznik] D+ mSj[R2D2] D mSj[naxel] D+ mSj[krudus] D mSj[duxx] D+ mSj[Mr.LiR] D+ mSj[Magic] D mSj[Ervin] D mSj[Eevy] D
On August 09 2013 06:34 SlowBullets wrote: To all you D scrubs who stir up all this drama, why don't you shut your noob ass mouth and ladder in the amount of time that you babble about useless bullshit.
Maybe this is why you guys are so trash.
GG NO RE
User was warned for this post
Maybe if you spent this time trying to cheat in D leagues and talk shit to them you could have improved instead.
Some of the stuff I've been hearing from Red Axis about various players in Sun Khan is absolutely hilarious. I'm looking forward to people getting to the bottom of it ^_^
On August 09 2013 11:29 Sentenal wrote: Some of the stuff I've been hearing from Red Axis about various players in Sun Khan is absolutely hilarious. I'm looking forward to people getting to the bottom of it ^_^
In other news, Courage might enter after all.
If I can play and if courage is playing I would like to be on courage.
On August 09 2013 11:36 Birdie wrote: Team split vote tally. Votes Yes (15): Birdie dazed_spy DarkNetHunter art_of_turtle greenelve Biolunar Babo (NOT PLAYING AFAIK) RulZBoooM (ggrrg) RedAxis (Sync[gm] mG.arb (arb) TheMarine L1ghtning L_Master Miss.clickii Stardom(OD) (LightningStrike) Votes No (10): Cpt.Beefy (AtomicArchon) ImAtTheBeach EchOne Sentenal Squishy Gao Xi (Shuruken) NOT PLAYING AFAIK Nagisama aeghrur (ghrur) KazeHydra Stardom(OD) (LightningStrike) Bad]Seed (chrisolo) said basically yes but not a direct vote so I didn't count it.
Would be great to have Courage play
Shame that ImAtTheBeach and SlowBullets cheated, pretty disappointing really.
Actually I saw LightningStrike and put L1ghtning, my mistake
DeSPA, Sun Khan, Stealth Bunnies, Banana Split, mSj, Netwars, Courage, Hwaiting Oz, ACE, TAKK are the possible teams by my count which is 10 :D But I don't know 100% that Banana Split, Netwars, and Hwaiting Oz will happen so we'll see.
On August 09 2013 11:36 Birdie wrote: Team split vote tally. Votes Yes (15): Birdie dazed_spy DarkNetHunter art_of_turtle greenelve Biolunar Babo (NOT PLAYING AFAIK) RulZBoooM (ggrrg) RedAxis (Sync[gm] mG.arb (arb) TheMarine L1ghtning L_Master Miss.clickii Stardom(OD) (LightningStrike) Votes No (9): Cpt.Beefy (AtomicArchon) ImAtTheBeach EchOne Sentenal Squishy Gao Xi (Shuruken) NOT PLAYING AFAIK Nagisama aeghrur (ghrur) KazeHydra
Bad]Seed (chrisolo) said basically yes but not a direct vote so I didn't count it.
Would be great to have Courage play
Shame that ImAtTheBeach and SlowBullets cheated, pretty disappointing really.
Fixed for you
I have no idea why my name is on the yes side, I didn't vote...
Anyways, in the possibility that Courage joins, wouldn't that set the teams at 6? TAKK, Airforce Ace of Spades, DeSPA, Stealth Bunnies, mSj, and then Courage? If Stealth Bunnies were to split after Courage joins, it would make 7 teams. If this were to happen, would Stealth Bunnies be allowed to split and go for an uneven 7 teams with a funky schedule? Or would we just wait in the hopes that some random team show up or make a new team completely composed of free agents?
On August 09 2013 11:54 Birdie wrote: Actually I saw LightningStrike and put L1ghtning, my mistake
DeSPA, Sun Khan, Stealth Bunnies, Banana Split, mSj, Netwars, Courage, Hwaiting Oz, ACE, TAKK are the possible teams by my count which is 10 :D But I don't know 100% that Banana Split, Netwars, and Hwaiting Oz will happen so we'll see.
I'm assuming Banana Split is your split team? I seriously doubt NW would partake in this DRTL after last DRTL's fiasco. As for Hwaiting Oz, in the case they are allowed to join, but Lmaster decides against Birdie's team split, what would happen?
On August 09 2013 11:54 Birdie wrote: Actually I saw LightningStrike and put L1ghtning, my mistake
DeSPA, Sun Khan, Stealth Bunnies, Banana Split, mSj, Netwars, Courage, Hwaiting Oz, ACE, TAKK are the possible teams by my count which is 10 :D But I don't know 100% that Banana Split, Netwars, and Hwaiting Oz will happen so we'll see.
I'm assuming Banana Split is your split team? I seriously doubt NW would partake in this DRTL after last DRTL's fiasco. As for Hwaiting Oz, in the case they are allowed to join, but Lmaster decides against Birdie's team split, what would happen?
Banana Split probably wouldn't be the name but yep it is
NW has a thread about it with a player list of about seven players, I think they're entering but again not 100% confirmed. What would be the problem with Hwaiting Oz if the team split isn't allowed? It isn't comprised of split people afaik, only one or two members are from previous seasons' teams.
On August 09 2013 11:54 Birdie wrote: Actually I saw LightningStrike and put L1ghtning, my mistake
DeSPA, Sun Khan, Stealth Bunnies, Banana Split, mSj, Netwars, Courage, Hwaiting Oz, ACE, TAKK are the possible teams by my count which is 10 :D But I don't know 100% that Banana Split, Netwars, and Hwaiting Oz will happen so we'll see.
I highly doubt there will be a Sun Khan this season, after some of the things I've heard.
On August 09 2013 12:16 floladriblere wrote: I vote No for tonight. I don't think people should be allowed to participate in both CRTL and DRTL. That makes no sense.
On the surface it could sound weird, but several other players did. The logic here is that DRTL has allowed guys that hit C- during season to stay, provided they were in DRTL before, until they reach solid C and/or maintain C-. However, just touching C- allows one to play in CTour, and I think even some D+ may have been allowed.
On August 09 2013 12:16 floladriblere wrote: I vote No for tonight. I don't think people should be allowed to participate in both CRTL and DRTL. That makes no sense.
On the surface it could sound weird, but several other players did. The logic here is that DRTL has allowed guys that hit C- during season to stay, provided they were in DRTL before, until they reach solid C and/or maintain C-. However, just touching C- allows one to play in CTour, and I think even some D+ may have been allowed.
Actually, CRTL allowed anyone up to B+ to play, even D/D- if they so chose. So while it's true tonight is in the upper bound for DRTL, participating in CRTL doesn't mean anything by itself.
I know that concerns some players, mostly from SB and Courage teams. I think last CRTL season was some sort of transition for these players. D+ players were allowed in YSL, because of the lack of sign ups.
On August 09 2013 12:28 floladriblere wrote: I know that concerns some players, mostly from SB and Courage teams. I think last CRTL season was some sort of transition for these players. D+ players were allowed in YSL, because of the lack of sign ups.
To be honest the D guys from sB almost never played in CRTL, they were more backup players than anything. Artanis[xP] was in that transition though, too good for D ranks and not good enough for the Gambit's Cup level events, so CRTL helped to fill that gap, and I think after this season, TheMarine and I and maybe Arca and Icedraco will be too good for D ranks events and be looking for some C rank action, assuming we keep progressing at the same rate.
On August 09 2013 12:28 floladriblere wrote: I know that concerns some players, mostly from SB and Courage teams. I think last CRTL season was some sort of transition for these players. D+ players were allowed in YSL, because of the lack of sign ups.
To be honest the D guys from sB almost never played in CRTL, they were more backup players than anything. Artanis[xP] was in that transition though, too good for D ranks and not good enough for the Gambit's Cup level events, so CRTL helped to fill that gap, and I think after this season, TheMarine and I and maybe Arca and Icedraco will be too good for D ranks events and be looking for some C rank action, assuming we keep progressing at the same rate.
Too good for D-ranks but too bad to win a DRIT. T_T
On August 09 2013 11:54 Birdie wrote: Actually I saw LightningStrike and put L1ghtning, my mistake
DeSPA, Sun Khan, Stealth Bunnies, Banana Split, mSj, Netwars, Courage, Hwaiting Oz, ACE, TAKK are the possible teams by my count which is 10 :D But I don't know 100% that Banana Split, Netwars, and Hwaiting Oz will happen so we'll see.
I highly doubt there will be a Sun Khan this season, after some of the things I've heard.
Quite frankly there shouldnt be a Sun Khan. I'm not condemning every player on it, but its clear that the team has something rotten at its core, the entire name should be scourged from D ranks history.
On August 09 2013 12:28 floladriblere wrote: I know that concerns some players, mostly from SB and Courage teams. I think last CRTL season was some sort of transition for these players. D+ players were allowed in YSL, because of the lack of sign ups.
To be honest the D guys from sB almost never played in CRTL, they were more backup players than anything. Artanis[xP] was in that transition though, too good for D ranks and not good enough for the Gambit's Cup level events, so CRTL helped to fill that gap, and I think after this season, TheMarine and I and maybe Arca and Icedraco will be too good for D ranks events and be looking for some C rank action, assuming we keep progressing at the same rate.
Too good for D-ranks but too bad to win a DRIT. T_T
On August 09 2013 11:54 Birdie wrote: Actually I saw LightningStrike and put L1ghtning, my mistake
DeSPA, Sun Khan, Stealth Bunnies, Banana Split, mSj, Netwars, Courage, Hwaiting Oz, ACE, TAKK are the possible teams by my count which is 10 :D But I don't know 100% that Banana Split, Netwars, and Hwaiting Oz will happen so we'll see.
I highly doubt there will be a Sun Khan this season, after some of the things I've heard.
Quite frankly there shouldnt be a Sun Khan. I'm not condemning every player on it, but its clear that the team has something rotten at its core, the entire name should be scourged from D ranks history.
edit: good to hear about courage
I think that's a bit harsh, a couple of bad eggs and Pucca shouldn't scourge an entire team from the league. Most of the guys on Sun Khan are pretty cool from my experience.
Arb I have 100% winrate on my ZvT account started this season be afraid, be very afraid.
In 5 DRTL seasons, only 3 players made a full transition to C Ranks leagues : - sabas - l3gendary - artanis
I think thats' a problem for both leagues. => C Ranks leagues are lacking in players way more than D Ranks. => D Rank Teamleague has trouble including new players, especially D/D- level players.
On August 09 2013 12:56 floladriblere wrote: In 5 DRTL seasons, only 3 players made a full transition to C Ranks leagues : - sabas - l3gendary - artanis
I think thats' a problem for both leagues. => C Ranks leagues are lacking in players way more than D Ranks. => D Rank Teamleague has trouble including new players, especially D/D- level players.
D- players just need to step up their game so they can play in DRTL.
On August 09 2013 12:56 floladriblere wrote: In 5 DRTL seasons, only 3 players made a full transition to C Ranks leagues : - sabas - l3gendary - artanis
I think thats' a problem for both leagues. => C Ranks leagues are lacking in players way more than D Ranks. => D Rank Teamleague has trouble including new players, especially D/D- level players.
On August 09 2013 11:54 Birdie wrote: Actually I saw LightningStrike and put L1ghtning, my mistake
DeSPA, Sun Khan, Stealth Bunnies, Banana Split, mSj, Netwars, Courage, Hwaiting Oz, ACE, TAKK are the possible teams by my count which is 10 :D But I don't know 100% that Banana Split, Netwars, and Hwaiting Oz will happen so we'll see.
I highly doubt there will be a Sun Khan this season, after some of the things I've heard.
Quite frankly there shouldnt be a Sun Khan. I'm not condemning every player on it, but its clear that the team has something rotten at its core, the entire name should be scourged from D ranks history.
edit: good to hear about courage
I think that's a bit harsh, a couple of bad eggs and Pucca shouldn't scourge an entire team from the league. Most of the guys on Sun Khan are pretty cool from my experience.
Arb I have 100% winrate on my ZvT account started this season be afraid, be very afraid.
I still stand by my statement I have the best TvZ in the league :0.
On August 09 2013 11:54 Birdie wrote: Actually I saw LightningStrike and put L1ghtning, my mistake
DeSPA, Sun Khan, Stealth Bunnies, Banana Split, mSj, Netwars, Courage, Hwaiting Oz, ACE, TAKK are the possible teams by my count which is 10 :D But I don't know 100% that Banana Split, Netwars, and Hwaiting Oz will happen so we'll see.
I highly doubt there will be a Sun Khan this season, after some of the things I've heard.
Quite frankly there shouldnt be a Sun Khan. I'm not condemning every player on it, but its clear that the team has something rotten at its core, the entire name should be scourged from D ranks history.
edit: good to hear about courage
I think that's a bit harsh, a couple of bad eggs and Pucca shouldn't scourge an entire team from the league. Most of the guys on Sun Khan are pretty cool from my experience.
Arb I have 100% winrate on my ZvT account started this season be afraid, be very afraid.
I still stand by my statement I have the best TvZ in the league :0.
also mG.arb (D-) T_T
my tvz is better you beating sas.zaraki is just a lucky fluke
On August 09 2013 11:54 Birdie wrote: Actually I saw LightningStrike and put L1ghtning, my mistake
DeSPA, Sun Khan, Stealth Bunnies, Banana Split, mSj, Netwars, Courage, Hwaiting Oz, ACE, TAKK are the possible teams by my count which is 10 :D But I don't know 100% that Banana Split, Netwars, and Hwaiting Oz will happen so we'll see.
I highly doubt there will be a Sun Khan this season, after some of the things I've heard.
Quite frankly there shouldnt be a Sun Khan. I'm not condemning every player on it, but its clear that the team has something rotten at its core, the entire name should be scourged from D ranks history.
edit: good to hear about courage
I think that's a bit harsh, a couple of bad eggs and Pucca shouldn't scourge an entire team from the league. Most of the guys on Sun Khan are pretty cool from my experience.
Arb I have 100% winrate on my ZvT account started this season be afraid, be very afraid.
I still stand by my statement I have the best TvZ in the league :0.
also mG.arb (D-) T_T
my tvz is better you beating sas.zaraki is just a lucky fluke
I think I actually hold a winning record vs every zerg In the league that ive played against atleast, except you maybe youre closer to 50/50 or something I think.
On August 09 2013 11:54 Birdie wrote: Actually I saw LightningStrike and put L1ghtning, my mistake
DeSPA, Sun Khan, Stealth Bunnies, Banana Split, mSj, Netwars, Courage, Hwaiting Oz, ACE, TAKK are the possible teams by my count which is 10 :D But I don't know 100% that Banana Split, Netwars, and Hwaiting Oz will happen so we'll see.
I highly doubt there will be a Sun Khan this season, after some of the things I've heard.
Quite frankly there shouldnt be a Sun Khan. I'm not condemning every player on it, but its clear that the team has something rotten at its core, the entire name should be scourged from D ranks history.
edit: good to hear about courage
I think that's a bit harsh, a couple of bad eggs and Pucca shouldn't scourge an entire team from the league. Most of the guys on Sun Khan are pretty cool from my experience.
Arb I have 100% winrate on my ZvT account started this season be afraid, be very afraid.
I still stand by my statement I have the best TvZ in the league :0.
also mG.arb (D-) T_T
my tvz is better you beating sas.zaraki is just a lucky fluke
I think I actually hold a winning record vs every zerg In the league that ive played against atleast, except you maybe youre closer to 50/50 or something I think.
i think i remember a 10-0 period where you lost to every 9pool or 12hat speedling i did :p
On August 09 2013 11:54 Birdie wrote: Actually I saw LightningStrike and put L1ghtning, my mistake
DeSPA, Sun Khan, Stealth Bunnies, Banana Split, mSj, Netwars, Courage, Hwaiting Oz, ACE, TAKK are the possible teams by my count which is 10 :D But I don't know 100% that Banana Split, Netwars, and Hwaiting Oz will happen so we'll see.
I highly doubt there will be a Sun Khan this season, after some of the things I've heard.
Quite frankly there shouldnt be a Sun Khan. I'm not condemning every player on it, but its clear that the team has something rotten at its core, the entire name should be scourged from D ranks history.
edit: good to hear about courage
I think that's a bit harsh, a couple of bad eggs and Pucca shouldn't scourge an entire team from the league. Most of the guys on Sun Khan are pretty cool from my experience.
Arb I have 100% winrate on my ZvT account started this season be afraid, be very afraid.
I still stand by my statement I have the best TvZ in the league :0.
also mG.arb (D-) T_T
my tvz is better you beating sas.zaraki is just a lucky fluke
I think I actually hold a winning record vs every zerg In the league that ive played against atleast, except you maybe youre closer to 50/50 or something I think.
i think i remember a 10-0 period where you lost to every 9pool or 12hat speedling i did :p
i think I lost to every 2hatch and won every 3 hatch haha
I can definitely remember Lmaster saying that rauk is ineligible to play as he hit C-rank in the previous iCCup season. Regardless of his win/loss record, who he beat, how he beat them, hitting C is a much bigger feat than hitting C- and deems him too good for the league.
As for him playing off-race, it's a topic that's been talked about multiple times, and as it hasn't been allowed in the past, I doubt it'll be allowed now, meaning rauk isn't allowed to play in this league.
I can definitely remember Lmaster saying that rauk is ineligible to play as he hit C-rank in the previous iCCup season. Regardless of his win/loss record, who he beat, how he beat them, hitting C is a much bigger feat than hitting C- and deems him too good for the league.
As for him playing off-race, it's a topic that's been talked about multiple times, and as it hasn't been allowed in the past, I doubt it'll be allowed now, meaning rauk isn't allowed to play in this league.
On August 09 2013 04:04 LightningStrike wrote: Yes on Team splitting No on tonight playing
I vote the same. Both are no-brainers. SB's business are none of my business.
As a new player who is atleast borderline C-, tonight needs to convince us why he should be allowed to play in this league. 25-9 against many strong players, and not a single season with enough games for him to plateau, just doesn't convince me. At the very least, this guy is borderline D+/C-, and this league doesn't need more of those, and potentially, judging by the stats he could easily be a solid C. This is a easy choice. I don't understand why so many ppl say yes.
On August 09 2013 12:56 floladriblere wrote: In 5 DRTL seasons, only 3 players made a full transition to C Ranks leagues : - sabas - l3gendary - artanis
I think thats' a problem for both leagues. => C Ranks leagues are lacking in players way more than D Ranks. => D Rank Teamleague has trouble including new players, especially D/D- level players.
Rauk. But point still stands
Rauk shouldn't even have played in DRTL, so I don't think he counts, as he never was D rank to begin with.
Guys, I don't like being fucked with. Stop cheating in my leagues. I will find you, and I will ban your ass.
Is there a chance that Imatthebeach and slowbullets are the same person? I compared the rep of imatthebeach playing vs echone/prophecy with the Puzzle reps and the two seem to have the same hotkey setup. Just asking because the two seem to have a hotkey setup not that common among players. Most people start with 1 for unit hotkeys but the two don't use 1 for units. Though an explanation for this is that its not uncommon to have friends with the same hotkey setups especially if one taught the other.
Also to share some history, if my information is correct slowbullets is clazziquai, a poster on tl who was banned for hacking on iccup a few years back.
I highly doubt there will be a Sun Khan this season, after some of the things I've heard.
On August 09 2013 12:41 Dazed_Spy wrote:
I highly doubt there will be a Sun Khan this season, after some of the things I've heard. Quite frankly there shouldnt be a Sun Khan. I'm not condemning every player on it, but its clear that the team has something rotten at its core, the entire name should be scourged from D ranks history.
Quite frankly,
What that has to do with the fact of you 2 saying if our team should or should not exist is none of your concern nor buisness. Now there has been some wrong-doing going on in my team. This is my responsability. I will not deny that or avoid that. Only reasoning i can give is that i was not very active during last season. I kind of had a feeling something wrong was going on, but i was very busy with rl, and innocent until proven guilty is still part of my book. And btw, if you look at the past, some of the people involved have contribuited a lot too. Not trying to justify anyone. Just saying people are always quick to remember your errors and not your contributions. We are here to play. We are here to have fun and improve our bw. If that means re-building our team from scratch, so be it.
This is our core:
- Pebble444 - [khan]Xkcd
If you have a problem with that, take it to Lmaster.
I highly doubt there will be a Sun Khan this season, after some of the things I've heard. Quite frankly there shouldnt be a Sun Khan. I'm not condemning every player on it, but its clear that the team has something rotten at its core, the entire name should be scourged from D ranks history.
Quite frankly,
What that has to do with the fact of you 2 saying if our team should or should not exist is none of your concern nor buisness. Now there has been some wrong-doing going on in my team. This is my responsability. I will not deny that or avoid that. Only reasoning i can give is that i was not very active during last season. I kind of had a feeling something wrong was going on, but i was very busy with rl, and innocent until proven guilty is still part of my book. And btw, if you look at the past, some of the people involved have contribuited a lot too. Not trying to justify anyone. Just saying people are always quick to remember your errors and not your contributions. We are here to play. We are here to have fun and improve our bw. If that means re-building our team from scratch, so be it.
This is our core:
- Pebble444 - [khan]Xkcd
If you have a problem with that, take it to Lmaster.
Pebble, currently I think you are the only legit, non-cheating person in Sun Khan. I don't know if I should post about various things currently being investigated right now, but needless to say, Babo corrupted Sun Khan almost past redemption.
On August 09 2013 23:22 Sentenal wrote: Pebble, currently I think you are the only legit, non-cheating person in Sun Khan. I don't know if I should post about various things currently being investigated right now, but needless to say, Babo corrupted Sun Khan almost past redemption.
what if everyone on sun khan was actually the same person ??????
On August 09 2013 23:22 Sentenal wrote: Pebble, currently I think you are the only legit, non-cheating person in Sun Khan. I don't know if I should post about various things currently being investigated right now, but needless to say, Babo corrupted Sun Khan almost past redemption.
what if everyone on sun khan was actually the same person ??????
On August 09 2013 23:22 Sentenal wrote: Pebble, currently I think you are the only legit, non-cheating person in Sun Khan. I don't know if I should post about various things currently being investigated right now, but needless to say, Babo corrupted Sun Khan almost past redemption.
what if everyone on sun khan was actually the same person ??????
you should prolly tell everything tho. :-0
Nah, I don't want to say anything more when nothing has been proven.
You guys are treating Sun Khan like it can't be rebuilt, and even if it gets built under a new name there wouldn't be much of a difference. Go ahead pebble fly your flag, and GL getting your team together. Just be sure to be there for them.
On August 10 2013 02:18 art_of_turtle wrote: You guys are treating Sun Khan like it can't be rebuilt, and even if it gets built under a new name there wouldn't be much of a difference. Go ahead pebble fly your flag, and GL getting your team together. Just be sure to be there for them.
I don't think getting new players are the problem, it's the part about getting new players and keeping them there.
Lets go with the scenario that SunKhan stays and they draft free agents who are pretty active in the first couple of weeks, but as the season goes on, they start going inactive, as historically, that is what happens with many free agents in their first year. Then we'll have a team that's fielding so few players that there will be more walkover losses than anything.
What happened with SunKhan's base is incredibly unfortunate and the blame shouldn't be put on pebble or xkcd. But basically, what Babo and co. did ruined the league a bit, and as the group composed most of SunKhan, the team was just left to die.
I'm not saying that pebble and xkcd should abandon ship and go join somewhere else, and they seem to have been around quiet steadily since DRATL, but I'm just saying, free agents can only stay on board for so long.
A couple players interested in joining are in the same situation as mG.Arb: hit C over 3 years ago, but currently demonstrate play substantially below C. I'm deferring adding them to the roster until I know the clear policy on this.
On August 10 2013 02:18 art_of_turtle wrote: You guys are treating Sun Khan like it can't be rebuilt, and even if it gets built under a new name there wouldn't be much of a difference. Go ahead pebble fly your flag, and GL getting your team together. Just be sure to be there for them.
I don't think getting new players are the problem, it's the part about getting new players and keeping them there.
Lets go with the scenario that SunKhan stays and they draft free agents who are pretty active in the first couple of weeks, but as the season goes on, they start going inactive, as historically, that is what happens with many free agents in their first year. Then we'll have a team that's fielding so few players that there will be more walkover losses than anything.
What happened with SunKhan's base is incredibly unfortunate and the blame shouldn't be put on pebble or xkcd. But basically, what Babo and co. did ruined the league a bit, and as the group composed most of SunKhan, the team was just left to die.
I'm not saying that pebble and xkcd should abandon ship and go join somewhere else, and they seem to have been around quiet steadily since DRATL, but I'm just saying, free agents can only stay on board for so long.
Same boat that Despa was on. Most of the players from Despa were drafted last season. All that really needs to happen is that communication is always open.
On August 10 2013 02:18 art_of_turtle wrote: You guys are treating Sun Khan like it can't be rebuilt, and even if it gets built under a new name there wouldn't be much of a difference. Go ahead pebble fly your flag, and GL getting your team together. Just be sure to be there for them.
I don't think getting new players are the problem, it's the part about getting new players and keeping them there.
Lets go with the scenario that SunKhan stays and they draft free agents who are pretty active in the first couple of weeks, but as the season goes on, they start going inactive, as historically, that is what happens with many free agents in their first year. Then we'll have a team that's fielding so few players that there will be more walkover losses than anything.
What happened with SunKhan's base is incredibly unfortunate and the blame shouldn't be put on pebble or xkcd. But basically, what Babo and co. did ruined the league a bit, and as the group composed most of SunKhan, the team was just left to die.
I'm not saying that pebble and xkcd should abandon ship and go join somewhere else, and they seem to have been around quiet steadily since DRATL, but I'm just saying, free agents can only stay on board for so long.
Plus there is the stigma of being a team that housed at least two cheaters. I don't have anything against Pebble running a team, since like I said, hes legit. I'd recommend changing the name if the team though, to separate them from Babo's reputation he earned the team.
I'm not sure if I'm allowed to vote since I did say I'm not planning to participate this season but I would say 'yes' to both. Birdie sees trustworthy and I don't see why borderline C- players can't participate. It'll only help raise the skill level of the league imo. Is there a draft for practice partners? lol.
On August 10 2013 04:02 BigFan wrote: I'm not sure if I'm allowed to vote since I did say I'm not planning to participate this season but I would say 'yes' to both. Birdie sees trustworthy and I don't see why borderline C- players can't participate. It'll only help raise the skill level of the league imo. Is there a draft for practice partners? lol.
skill level of the league is already too high lmao
Stating something, and backing it up cos ur a manner MOD means very little to me. People have stated things and been full of it. So we'll see.. Paranoid, but not without reason.
On August 10 2013 04:08 Cpt.beefy wrote: Stating something, and backing it up cos ur a manner MOD means very little to me. People have stated things and been full of it. So we'll see.. Paranoid, but not with reason.
Just saying you're manner doesn't back anything up, but in this case he is backing it up by being a TL Mod.
On August 10 2013 04:08 Cpt.beefy wrote: Stating something, and backing it up cos ur a manner MOD means very little to me. People have stated things and been full of it. So we'll see.. Paranoid, but not with reason.
Just saying you're manner doesn't back anything up, but in this case he is backing it up by being a TL Mod.
On August 10 2013 04:02 BigFan wrote: I'm not sure if I'm allowed to vote since I did say I'm not planning to participate this season but I would say 'yes' to both. Birdie sees trustworthy and I don't see why borderline C- players can't participate. It'll only help raise the skill level of the league imo. Is there a draft for practice partners? lol.
skill level of the league is already too high lmao
yes on split idk bout tonight
tbh I have no clue what the skill level of this league is like. I've only ever played people on iccup and never anyone on TL so I dunno where I even stack >< I figure that borderline C- is within what this league aims for 'top' level but ya, dunno skill level.
On August 10 2013 04:08 Cpt.beefy wrote: Stating something, and backing it up cos ur a manner MOD means very little to me. People have stated things and been full of it. So we'll see.. Paranoid, but not with reason.
Just saying you're manner doesn't back anything up, but in this case he is backing it up by being a TL Mod.
We'll see
I vote for cpt.beefy just being extremely paranoid. The fact that he's questioning even a TL mod shows a lot more than what he would liked to have shown himself. And consider the fact that he was the first to get aggressive on Birdie's wanting to let his team split into 2, even if the 2nd team will have their own management.
Votes No (9): Cpt.Beefy (AtomicArchon) ImAtTheBeach (NOT PLAYING CUZ BANNED LOL) EchOne Sentenal Squishy Gao Xi (Shuruken) NOT PLAYING AFAIK Nagisama aeghrur (ghrur) KazeHydra
The fuck is this shit, AA? You're now accusing me of potentially cheating in some manner and want me to quit Sun Khan and DRTL for Pebble's sake? I have never done anything wrong during my play for Sun Khan, never will do so in the future, and I stand strong by my convictions on that. + Show Spoiler +
On August 10 2013 09:15 amazingxkcd wrote: The fuck is this shit, AA? You're now accusing me of potentially cheating in some manner and want me to quit Sun Khan and DRTL for Pebble's sake? I have never done anything wrong during my play for Sun Khan, never will do so in the future, and I stand strong by my convictions on that. + Show Spoiler +
On August 10 2013 09:15 amazingxkcd wrote: The fuck is this shit, AA? You're now accusing me of potentially cheating in some manner and want me to quit Sun Khan and DRTL for Pebble's sake? I have never done anything wrong during my play for Sun Khan, never will do so in the future, and I stand strong by my convictions on that. + Show Spoiler +
You called me paranoid, guess i must be.
That's only confirming my statement of you being paranoid
On August 10 2013 09:15 amazingxkcd wrote: The fuck is this shit, AA? You're now accusing me of potentially cheating in some manner and want me to quit Sun Khan and DRTL for Pebble's sake? I have never done anything wrong during my play for Sun Khan, never will do so in the future, and I stand strong by my convictions on that. + Show Spoiler +
You called me paranoid, guess i must be.
That's only confirming my statement of you being paranoid
On August 10 2013 09:29 tonight wrote: haha, we stopped caring about Birdie's team split and now it's onto xkcd. Let's just get this shit over with and move onto playing some games
On August 10 2013 09:29 tonight wrote: haha, we stopped caring about Birdie's team split and now it's onto xkcd. Let's just get this shit over with and move onto playing some games
On August 10 2013 09:29 tonight wrote: haha, we stopped caring about Birdie's team split and now it's onto xkcd. Let's just get this shit over with and move onto playing some games
Is your poll results in?
No, I have no idea what I'm at, but in general I'm just saying LET'S PLAY SOME GAMES
On August 10 2013 04:08 Cpt.beefy wrote: Stating something, and backing it up cos ur a manner MOD means very little to me. People have stated things and been full of it. So we'll see.. Paranoid, but not with reason.
Just saying you're manner doesn't back anything up, but in this case he is backing it up by being a TL Mod.
Some of the TL mods are assholes, so the fact that's he's manner actually says a lot.
A couple players interested in joining are in the same situation as mG.Arb: hit C over 3 years ago, but currently demonstrate play substantially below C. I'm deferring adding them to the roster until I know the clear policy on this.
Isn't arb supposed to be a freee agent? Maybe I'm missing something.... Cu tommorow for drit finals.
edit: and obvisouly i thínk arb can play. he is nowhere close to c currewntly....
A couple players interested in joining are in the same situation as mG.Arb: hit C over 3 years ago, but currently demonstrate play substantially below C. I'm deferring adding them to the roster until I know the clear policy on this.
Isn't arb supposed to be a freee agent? Maybe I'm missing something.... Cu tommorow for drit finals.
edit: and obvisouly i thínk arb can play. he is nowhere close to c currewntly....
No, we're not trying to sign arb, we're trying to someone LIKE arb. arb hit C about 3 years ago, several iCCup seasons ago, but as he went inactive afterwards, his skill level decreased enough to where he was deemed to be eligible to play.
A couple players interested in joining are in the same situation as mG.Arb: hit C over 3 years ago, but currently demonstrate play substantially below C. I'm deferring adding them to the roster until I know the clear policy on this.
Isn't arb supposed to be a freee agent? Maybe I'm missing something.... Cu tommorow for drit finals.
edit: and obvisouly i thínk arb can play. he is nowhere close to c currewntly....
No, we're not trying to sign arb, we're trying to someone LIKE arb. arb hit C about 3 years ago, several iCCup seasons ago, but as he went inactive afterwards, his skill level decreased enough to where he was deemed to be eligible to play.
as I said, I don't think arb is anywhere close to c currently. I think he should be able to play.
On August 10 2013 04:08 Cpt.beefy wrote: Stating something, and backing it up cos ur a manner MOD means very little to me. People have stated things and been full of it. So we'll see.. Paranoid, but not with reason.
Just saying you're manner doesn't back anything up, but in this case he is backing it up by being a TL Mod.
Some of the TL mods are assholes, so the fact that's he's manner actually says a lot.
I've never had any issues with any of them, but then again I'm L_Master so that doesn't say much
On August 10 2013 04:08 Cpt.beefy wrote: Stating something, and backing it up cos ur a manner MOD means very little to me. People have stated things and been full of it. So we'll see.. Paranoid, but not without reason.
Please stop being an idiot,you are opposing everything that can be opposed.Use your brains for 1 minute..
On August 10 2013 04:08 Cpt.beefy wrote: Stating something, and backing it up cos ur a manner MOD means very little to me. People have stated things and been full of it. So we'll see.. Paranoid, but not without reason.
Please stop being an idiot,you are opposing everything that can be opposed.Use your brains for 1 minute..
On August 10 2013 17:06 lightson wrote: Is there going to be a draft? or are new players allowed to stay in the teams that they were recruited into?
Attention should be focused on those who claim D rank when in reality they are a lot better than those who've hit C, x seasons ago.
The draft is gonna take place on Monday. I don't believe the players that were originally approached by the other team were allowed to stay with those teams.
As for looking into eligible skill level for the league, we're definitely doing that too.
A couple players interested in joining are in the same situation as mG.Arb: hit C over 3 years ago, but currently demonstrate play substantially below C. I'm deferring adding them to the roster until I know the clear policy on this.
Isn't arb supposed to be a freee agent? Maybe I'm missing something.... Cu tommorow for drit finals.
edit: and obvisouly i thínk arb can play. he is nowhere close to c currewntly....
No, we're not trying to sign arb, we're trying to someone LIKE arb. arb hit C about 3 years ago, several iCCup seasons ago, but as he went inactive afterwards, his skill level decreased enough to where he was deemed to be eligible to play.
as I said, I don't think arb is anywhere close to c currently. I think he should be able to play.
I think in all honesty if I felt like dedicating time to practice I would steamroll most people in this league if I got back into shape, I just don't really play very much and spend way too much time drinking and playing league tbh.
A couple players interested in joining are in the same situation as mG.Arb: hit C over 3 years ago, but currently demonstrate play substantially below C. I'm deferring adding them to the roster until I know the clear policy on this.
Isn't arb supposed to be a freee agent? Maybe I'm missing something.... Cu tommorow for drit finals.
edit: and obvisouly i thínk arb can play. he is nowhere close to c currewntly....
No, we're not trying to sign arb, we're trying to someone LIKE arb. arb hit C about 3 years ago, several iCCup seasons ago, but as he went inactive afterwards, his skill level decreased enough to where he was deemed to be eligible to play.
as I said, I don't think arb is anywhere close to c currently. I think he should be able to play.
I think in all honesty if I felt like dedicating time to practice I would steamroll most people in this league if I got back into shape, I just don't really play very much and spend way too much time drinking and playing league tbh.
I drop constantly between C- and D+, but if you look into my matchlist you can see that Im definately more of a D+ player than C-. (Just for the record, I hit C like 2 years ago, but just cuz I played a array of matches 'gainst the same guy and I had a mad edge + I didn't played since then anymore in first place, so it doesn't mean anything.)
I see that I need to write this again, because my team that I joined is not going to happen... -- Rank: D (1862) ICCUP account: Magreidis/Nuker/GosuFTW/OMEGE Race: Protoss
L_Master said on Friday August 9th that draft will take place on Monday (probably tomorrow) and that league will start a little under 2 weeks after that (I'm guessing Saturday August 24th... which is incidentally the day I go out of town).
Teams consisting of less than seven players get to draft first until they have seven. At this point, draft will open to all teams, with order going 123456654321 until all players are taken.
Speaking of which, if you haven't posted complete roster...I need that. In fact, and I'll put this in captains chat, I would like each captain to post their current roster again so I have it all in one place and can figure out what we have going on.
To my knowledge the teams participating are TAKK, mSj, Khan, Courage?, sB, BananaSplit, DeSPA, Ace of Spades
In the end, every team should end up with AT LEAST 8 players. I would just kindly like to say dibs on arb for Courage. He's D-, nobody should want him.
Courage wouldn't be bad since it houses imo the best Protoss' and my TvP has always been my shakiest matchup hands down(idk what to say about TvT since its basically untested for the most part)
On August 12 2013 09:54 SynC[gm] wrote: SunKhan should be able to draft 5 people first, and then it should be randomized teams picking for free agents in the order...
In the end, every team should end up with AT LEAST 8 players. I would just kindly like to say dibs on arb for Courage. He's D-, nobody should want him.
To be fair, I'm D on iccup but I'm not sure if I'm really D when compared to everyone else here so for the sake of fairness, I'll say D-/D until I get a chance to play with some TL members to know my true skill level. On a side note, I think Khan should take arb into their ranks since they get first dibs lol
edit: oh btw, I'm terran but I can also play protoss seeing as how we're terran heavy in the draft lol
On August 12 2013 09:54 SynC[gm] wrote: SunKhan should be able to draft 5 people first, and then it should be randomized teams picking for free agents in the order...
In the end, every team should end up with AT LEAST 8 players. I would just kindly like to say dibs on arb for Courage. He's D-, nobody should want him.
Probably shooting for 9 players at least in each team. Khan will draft first till 7 players, then it will be 1234554321 style order between DeSPA, Khan, sB, split, and Ace until they have 9.
Courage, TAKK, mSj all have over 10 players and don't really need the draft, so it will be between the 5 teams names above. We discussed this in captains chat, and it seemed to be acceptable to everyone. The only person not there was either prophecy or sentenal; so if this is not acceptable to you guys let me know why not.
Courage won't mind, willing to let players get equal play time if need be. Of course, if certain players, such as free agents, would rather come to Courage than other team, then maybe we can talk. :D
On August 12 2013 09:54 SynC[gm] wrote: SunKhan should be able to draft 5 people first, and then it should be randomized teams picking for free agents in the order...
In the end, every team should end up with AT LEAST 8 players. I would just kindly like to say dibs on arb for Courage. He's D-, nobody should want him.
To be fair, I'm D on iccup but I'm not sure if I'm really D when compared to everyone else here so for the sake of fairness, I'll say D-/D until I get a chance to play with some TL members to know my true skill level. On a side note, I think Khan should take arb into their ranks since they get first dibs lol
edit: oh btw, I'm terran but I can also play protoss seeing as how we're terran heavy in the draft lol
A word of warning to whoever ends up drafting me, I got ill yesterday and I'll be recovering well into the week, so don't expect any sort of form from me in the starting stages of the tournament.
On August 12 2013 18:50 Nikon wrote: A word of warning to whoever ends up drafting me, I got ill yesterday and I'll be recovering well into the week, so don't expect any sort of form from me in the starting stages of the tournament.
Don't worry Nikon, the tourny won't even be kicking off until end of next week, plenty of time to recover
On August 12 2013 09:54 SynC[gm] wrote: SunKhan should be able to draft 5 people first, and then it should be randomized teams picking for free agents in the order...
In the end, every team should end up with AT LEAST 8 players. I would just kindly like to say dibs on arb for Courage. He's D-, nobody should want him.
Probably shooting for 9 players at least in each team. Khan will draft first till 7 players, then it will be 1234554321 style order between DeSPA, Khan, sB, split, and Ace until they have 9.
Courage, TAKK, mSj all have over 10 players and don't really need the draft, so it will be between the 5 teams names above. We discussed this in captains chat, and it seemed to be acceptable to everyone. The only person not there was either prophecy or sentenal; so if this is not acceptable to you guys let me know why not.
Yeah, thats fine I think. We didn't really intend to draft antone. As for the captains chat, I think Echo only very rately uses skype, and I'm not in the group, so thats why there was no input from us. But yeah, we are fine with not drafting.
On August 12 2013 13:49 SynC[gm] wrote: Courage won't mind, willing to let players get equal play time if need be. Of course, if certain players, such as free agents, would rather come to Courage than other team, then maybe we can talk. :D
On August 12 2013 09:54 SynC[gm] wrote: SunKhan should be able to draft 5 people first, and then it should be randomized teams picking for free agents in the order...
In the end, every team should end up with AT LEAST 8 players. I would just kindly like to say dibs on arb for Courage. He's D-, nobody should want him.
To be fair, I'm D on iccup but I'm not sure if I'm really D when compared to everyone else here so for the sake of fairness, I'll say D-/D until I get a chance to play with some TL members to know my true skill level. On a side note, I think Khan should take arb into their ranks since they get first dibs lol
edit: oh btw, I'm terran but I can also play protoss seeing as how we're terran heavy in the draft lol
Sync selling me short tt
haha, more nooby than I am with that D- rank of yours
On August 13 2013 04:51 L_Master wrote: I also want to emphasize that there will be ZERO tolerance on lineup submission times and on replay submission times.
Lineups will be due on Wednesday prior to the matches at [unparsable timestamp format]
On August 13 2013 04:51 L_Master wrote: I also want to emphasize that there will be ZERO tolerance on lineup submission times and on replay submission times.
Lineups will be due on Wednesday prior to the matches at [unparsable timestamp format]
well shit, replays are never due
Imba quote timing.
To be clear about reps, that time is 85 hours after a given weeks DRTL playtime.
I never understood how there are people who do not submit replays...
The file is right there, you are using the internet, why the fuck wouldn't the winner upload the replay and send the link to the team captain/league organizers?
On August 13 2013 05:41 fabiano wrote: I never understood how there are people who do not submit replays...
The file is right there, you are using the internet, why the fuck wouldn't the winner upload the replay and send the link to the team captain/league organizers?
They're just like "Trust me, I totally won my match."
On August 13 2013 05:41 fabiano wrote: I never understood how there are people who do not submit replays...
The file is right there, you are using the internet, why the fuck wouldn't the winner upload the replay and send the link to the team captain/league organizers?
They're just like "Trust me, I totally won my match."
There were problems with corrupted replays. What would be the judgement in that case?
On August 13 2013 05:41 fabiano wrote: I never understood how there are people who do not submit replays...
The file is right there, you are using the internet, why the fuck wouldn't the winner upload the replay and send the link to the team captain/league organizers?
Yea lol I don't really understand it either. Just everyone needs to be aware.
Ill announce about it, but replays need to be sent in by one person. It doesnt HAVE to be the captain, but getting 30 emails a week isn't effective.
To be honest, once draft is done I will probably put up a new, clean league thread with all the relevant annoucnements and final team lists as well as a season long map list so we don't have issues on my end like last season when I would get busy and not have maps out till after lineups were supposed to be due.
Never expected there to be so many T players in the draft o.O . Though judging from their posts, a handful of them don't really seem to play BW on a regular basis? and thus only chose T because its the "human" race?
OR, is this all a part of their plan? person plays the newbie so as the keep a low profile, then suddenly when the time is right they come out and just destroy everyone...hmmm
Well, whatever happens hope everyone has a good time.
I for one, will be a sure advocate in having VIN as part of our map pool. It's different than the other maps, it's a 4-player map, and calls for some pretty interesting change-up of play.
On August 13 2013 10:39 lightson wrote: Never expected there to be so many T players in the draft o.O . Though judging from their posts, a handful of them don't really seem to play BW on a regular basis? and thus only chose T because its the "human" race?
OR, is this all a part of their plan? person plays the newbie so as the keep a low profile, then suddenly when the time is right they come out and just destroy everyone...hmmm
Well, whatever happens hope everyone has a good time.
i like playing terran cuz its the hardest race and im the most satisfied with myself when i win using terran :~)
On August 13 2013 10:39 lightson wrote: Never expected there to be so many T players in the draft o.O . Though judging from their posts, a handful of them don't really seem to play BW on a regular basis? and thus only chose T because its the "human" race?
OR, is this all a part of their plan? person plays the newbie so as the keep a low profile, then suddenly when the time is right they come out and just destroy everyone...hmmm
Well, whatever happens hope everyone has a good time.
i like playing terran cuz its the hardest race and im the most satisfied with myself when i win using terran :~)
Terran master race. That's why I swapped from zerg
On August 13 2013 11:25 SynC[gm] wrote: I for one, will be a sure advocate in having VIN as part of our map pool. It's different than the other maps, it's a 4-player map, and calls for some pretty interesting change-up of play.
Wanting to add a reverse ramp map as a Terran in a DRTL filled with Protoss and Zerg, what are you? a masochist?
I say keep 815 regardless that the SOSPA isn't using it anymore. Give it one round so that we can all become familiar with it and play on it then you can change it next round.
On August 13 2013 14:57 BigFan wrote: I say keep 815 regardless that the SOSPA isn't using it anymore. Give it one round so that we can all become familiar with it and play on it then you can change it next round.
Rounds or seasons? DRTL, unlike Proleague, has no rounds. It's just all seasons, new schedules, new teams... And keeping a disliked map for an entire season won't sit well with players, as the community tends to be a bit impatient with change.
On August 13 2013 11:25 SynC[gm] wrote: I for one, will be a sure advocate in having VIN as part of our map pool. It's different than the other maps, it's a 4-player map, and calls for some pretty interesting change-up of play.
Wanting to add a reverse ramp map as a Terran in a DRTL filled with Protoss and Zerg, what are you? a masochist?
Well if it comes to reverse ramps, Neo Jade is kinda fun.
I really dislike reverse ramped maps personally, seem really dumb for terran(*especially at low ranks) if youre going to throw in something liket hat you should add in something terran favored aswell imo
Its just gonna promote.mirror match ups on race specfic maps. Why bother with them? Get balanced maps. Period. I like the idea of RoV instead of 815 but i dunno if its balanced. N i love island map but again i dunno any balanced ones
On August 13 2013 11:25 SynC[gm] wrote: I for one, will be a sure advocate in having VIN as part of our map pool. It's different than the other maps, it's a 4-player map, and calls for some pretty interesting change-up of play.
Wanting to add a reverse ramp map as a Terran in a DRTL filled with Protoss and Zerg, what are you? a masochist?
Well if it comes to reverse ramps, Neo Jade is kinda fun.
On August 13 2013 11:25 SynC[gm] wrote: I for one, will be a sure advocate in having VIN as part of our map pool. It's different than the other maps, it's a 4-player map, and calls for some pretty interesting change-up of play.
Wanting to add a reverse ramp map as a Terran in a DRTL filled with Protoss and Zerg, what are you? a masochist?
Well if it comes to reverse ramps, Neo Jade is kinda fun.
On August 13 2013 14:57 BigFan wrote: I say keep 815 regardless that the SOSPA isn't using it anymore. Give it one round so that we can all become familiar with it and play on it then you can change it next round.
People who have been playing BW on and off for a while might've played 815 before and are already familiar with how awful it is to play on that map.
On August 13 2013 14:57 BigFan wrote: I say keep 815 regardless that the SOSPA isn't using it anymore. Give it one round so that we can all become familiar with it and play on it then you can change it next round.
Rounds or seasons? DRTL, unlike Proleague, has no rounds. It's just all seasons, new schedules, new teams... And keeping a disliked map for an entire season won't sit well with players, as the community tends to be a bit impatient with change.
On August 13 2013 14:57 BigFan wrote: I say keep 815 regardless that the SOSPA isn't using it anymore. Give it one round so that we can all become familiar with it and play on it then you can change it next round.
People who have been playing BW on and off for a while might've played 815 before and are already familiar with how awful it is to play on that map.
I've never played on it before but I like the idea that its not a standard map, that it promotes non-standard play. I also would like to play on as many different maps as possible.
By non-standard map you mean ridiculously wide chokes at the natural. I have no idea how you forge fe on that map. Do you just 1 base rush zealots vs zerg on that map?
On August 14 2013 01:16 Falling wrote: By non-standard map you mean ridiculously wide chokes at the natural. I have no idea how you forge fe on that map. Do you just 1 base rush zealots vs zerg on that map?
wow just took a good look at the map. That's the smallest ramp I've ever seen XD
Every other ground unit in BW is unable to walk through this ramp. This means that all macro buildings other than Barracks or air production need to be built outside of your main unless you want to have an airdrop fleet that costs as much as your army.
Leaving that travesty behind, you have a natural expansion. Natural expansion only has 6 mineral patches, no geyser, and is completely wide open. Alright... what about the other bases? Every other base is an air expansion with 6 minerals and 5000 gas via 1 regular geyser or 2 half-geysers. Wtf is this 2 half-geyser shit? We aren't here to play SC2.
Ahem. So what does this all mean? I'll leave balance aside because people can make their own conclusions via TLPD stats and VODs. My opinion is that all of these features make the map not fun to play, especially for low-level players. You made a Dragoon in your main? Sorry, that guy is gonna be useless until you spend 200 minerals and a lot of APM shuttling his fat ass out. You have a build predicated on a 2nd gas? Have fun spending a few hundred gas to secure an air expo unless you want to sneak a main. You only have 100 apm? Well, half of that is gonna go to transporting units around in dropships.
Every other ground unit in BW is unable to walk through this ramp. This means that all macro buildings other than Barracks or air production need to be built outside of your main unless you want to have an airdrop fleet that costs as much as your army.
Leaving that travesty behind, you have a natural expansion. Natural expansion only has 6 mineral patches, no geyser, and is completely wide open. Alright... what about the other bases? Every other base is an air expansion with 6 minerals and 5000 gas via 1 regular geyser or 2 half-geysers. Wtf is this 2 half-geyser shit? We aren't here to play SC2.
Ahem. So what does this all mean? I'll leave balance aside because people can make their own conclusions via TLPD stats and VODs. My opinion is that all of these features make the map not fun to play, especially for low-level players. You made a Dragoon in your main? Sorry, that guy is gonna be useless until you spend 200 minerals and a lot of APM shuttling his fat ass out. You have a build predicated on a 2nd gas? Have fun spending a few hundred gas to secure an air expo unless you want to sneak a main. You only have 100 apm? Well, half of that is gonna go to transporting units around in dropships.
hmm a fair assessment. I can see it being cheese vs. cheeses. I'm not sure what everyone else likes but I think they'll make for some fun scrappy game. Ya, that transportation bit is annoying and I agree with you there. I still think several games on it then having a vote can't be a bad thing since it does force a different style of play but that's my opinion
Every other ground unit in BW is unable to walk through this ramp. This means that all macro buildings other than Barracks or air production need to be built outside of your main unless you want to have an airdrop fleet that costs as much as your army.
Leaving that travesty behind, you have a natural expansion. Natural expansion only has 6 mineral patches, no geyser, and is completely wide open. Alright... what about the other bases? Every other base is an air expansion with 6 minerals and 5000 gas via 1 regular geyser or 2 half-geysers. Wtf is this 2 half-geyser shit? We aren't here to play SC2.
Ahem. So what does this all mean? I'll leave balance aside because people can make their own conclusions via TLPD stats and VODs. My opinion is that all of these features make the map not fun to play, especially for low-level players. You made a Dragoon in your main? Sorry, that guy is gonna be useless until you spend 200 minerals and a lot of APM shuttling his fat ass out. You have a build predicated on a 2nd gas? Have fun spending a few hundred gas to secure an air expo unless you want to sneak a main. You only have 100 apm? Well, half of that is gonna go to transporting units around in dropships.
Just because you dont like it doesnt it mean it wont be enjoyable for other players; my favorite map ever happens to be hall of vahalla. Theres no intrinsic attachment between skill and enjoyment for particular types of maps. People should stop pissing their pants about one slightly non standard map that was used in the pro scene for a long time, multiple times. I think the fact that it was shows the balance is considered at least acceptable, and the variation in game may bring quite a few people pleasure. If not, we scrap it sometime into the league. Not much of a problem.
I'm just describing the situation people are signing up for when they play 815. ^_^ I personally am gonna love playing it, but I always feel like somewhat of an asshole after beating people there because they have no idea how to play the map.
On August 14 2013 08:02 Falling wrote: Suprisingly high templar CAN go up an down the ramp. I would have thought their ninja brethern would have been the skinny ones, but no. Fat ninjas.
Every other ground unit in BW is unable to walk through this ramp. This means that all macro buildings other than Barracks or air production need to be built outside of your main unless you want to have an airdrop fleet that costs as much as your army.
Leaving that travesty behind, you have a natural expansion. Natural expansion only has 6 mineral patches, no geyser, and is completely wide open. Alright... what about the other bases? Every other base is an air expansion with 6 minerals and 5000 gas via 1 regular geyser or 2 half-geysers. Wtf is this 2 half-geyser shit? We aren't here to play SC2.
Ahem. So what does this all mean? I'll leave balance aside because people can make their own conclusions via TLPD stats and VODs. My opinion is that all of these features make the map not fun to play, especially for low-level players. You made a Dragoon in your main? Sorry, that guy is gonna be useless until you spend 200 minerals and a lot of APM shuttling his fat ass out. You have a build predicated on a 2nd gas? Have fun spending a few hundred gas to secure an air expo unless you want to sneak a main. You only have 100 apm? Well, half of that is gonna go to transporting units around in dropships.
Just because you dont like it doesnt it mean it wont be enjoyable for other players; my favorite map ever happens to be hall of vahalla. Theres no intrinsic attachment between skill and enjoyment for particular types of maps. People should stop pissing their pants about one slightly non standard map that was used in the pro scene for a long time, multiple times. I think the fact that it was shows the balance is considered at least acceptable, and the variation in game may bring quite a few people pleasure. If not, we scrap it sometime into the league. Not much of a problem.
Yeah, if you want to make the argument of "slightly non-standard (HAHA) map that was used for a long time multiple times", you could use that same argument better for stuff like Nostalgia or Requiem. But I doubt most people would want those, either.
Every other ground unit in BW is unable to walk through this ramp. This means that all macro buildings other than Barracks or air production need to be built outside of your main unless you want to have an airdrop fleet that costs as much as your army.
Leaving that travesty behind, you have a natural expansion. Natural expansion only has 6 mineral patches, no geyser, and is completely wide open. Alright... what about the other bases? Every other base is an air expansion with 6 minerals and 5000 gas via 1 regular geyser or 2 half-geysers. Wtf is this 2 half-geyser shit? We aren't here to play SC2.
Ahem. So what does this all mean? I'll leave balance aside because people can make their own conclusions via TLPD stats and VODs. My opinion is that all of these features make the map not fun to play, especially for low-level players. You made a Dragoon in your main? Sorry, that guy is gonna be useless until you spend 200 minerals and a lot of APM shuttling his fat ass out. You have a build predicated on a 2nd gas? Have fun spending a few hundred gas to secure an air expo unless you want to sneak a main. You only have 100 apm? Well, half of that is gonna go to transporting units around in dropships.
Just because you dont like it doesnt it mean it wont be enjoyable for other players; my favorite map ever happens to be hall of vahalla. Theres no intrinsic attachment between skill and enjoyment for particular types of maps. People should stop pissing their pants about one slightly non standard map that was used in the pro scene for a long time, multiple times. I think the fact that it was shows the balance is considered at least acceptable, and the variation in game may bring quite a few people pleasure. If not, we scrap it sometime into the league. Not much of a problem.
Yeah, if you want to make the argument of "slightly non-standard (HAHA) map that was used for a long time multiple times", you could use that same argument better for stuff like Nostalgia or Requiem. But I doubt most people would want those, either.
I would be perfectly fine with either, especially if either one had been used recently in the vestigial pro scene.
On August 14 2013 12:22 L_Master wrote: Only question is, do we dare do a 16 week season to make it neat...or do we incorporae bys?
Make byes despite having an even number of teams that could be finished within 7 weeks? o.O I think putting byes will be pushing it to the point where it'll get to the point where players are gonna start getting busy with exams and be leaving for the holidays, and we'll want it to finish the season ASAP.
If there is an even number of teams, I don't see why there should be any byes. 16 weeks means 14 weeks of group stages and 2 weeks of playoffs, right? Sounds acceptable to me.
edit: On a side note, I think it's worth considering changing the structure of the playoffs in such a way that every team has the incentive to give their best till the end. For example, letting 6 instead of 4 teams reach the playoffs. Maybe with the first 2 teams being seeded one round ahead of the other 4 or the last 3 teams having to fight for the 4th spot in the elimination bracket with 5th vs 6th -> winner vs 4th -> winner takes the last spot in the playoff elimination bracket. Something like this would reduce the possibility of a team having no chance for the playoffs mid-season, and thus have no more incentive to play. I think, the league would benefit from this especially if it the group stages go for 14 weeks.
On August 14 2013 12:22 L_Master wrote: Only question is, do we dare do a 16 week season to make it neat...or do we incorporae bys?
Make byes despite having an even number of teams that could be finished within 7 weeks? o.O I think putting byes will be pushing it to the point where it'll get to the point where players are gonna start getting busy with exams and be leaving for the holidays, and we'll want it to finish the season ASAP.
Edit: Venci, there's 8 teams participating.
If we start next Saturday, 16 weeks later would be the first Saturday of December. I guess this would be before holiday season for everybody.
Or we could do Playoffs STX-Soul tournament style. Bottom vs 2nd last. Winner vs 3rd Last. So on and so fourth, but that'd take forever for a play-off lol.
I'm against a 6 team playoff. Already have the league makes it to them with 4, making it 6 almost means "as long as you aren't the shittiest team in the league, you can make it".
I'm fine with whatever, though byes can get pretty lame. Players not showing up/getting walked over because their team lost or can't make the playoffs or other late-season motivation problems... also lame.
14 weeks seems way too ambitious. Considering the dropout rate in the past, it wouldn't be unusual for a team to be unable to play halfway through the season due to lack of players. What happens if a team goes 0-6, trashing player morale and decimating the team's motivation to show up? What happens if a team disappears entirely similar to NW Power of last season?
The length of this season risks exacerbating existing problems within the league for very little gain. If you really want more games, just run two DRTL seasons in succession.
On August 15 2013 05:02 Spazer wrote: 14 weeks seems way too ambitious. Considering the dropout rate in the past, it wouldn't be unusual for a team to be unable to play halfway through the season due to lack of players. What happens if a team goes 0-6, trashing player morale and decimating the team's motivation to show up? What happens if a team disappears entirely similar to NW Power of last season? The length of this season risks exacerbating existing problems within the league for very little gain. If you really want more games, just run two DRTL seasons in succession.
I agree. I feel like 14 weeks of group stages has a very high chance of not working out...
Well I'll be out of town the first 2-3 weeks so more weeks is better for me
Spazer may have a point though. Back to back seasons or a multi-round season ala BW SPL may be preferable due to fluctuations in player interest. New seasons/rounds can provide more frequent recruiting periods too.
On August 15 2013 06:17 KaiGreene wrote: I would like to reschedule my match on the 24th. I really have to work then because I owed a colleague a big favor. Thanks in advance
Uh, can't someone else on TAKK sub for you? It's not like lineups were due yet or anything. Not that I care, you're playing vs mSj D:
If things remain as they have been, a 16 week season will almost mean 16 weeks till the next DRIT. So I'd rather the season not be 16 weeks. Spazer's post has a lot of merit, as well.
On August 15 2013 06:17 KaiGreene wrote: I would like to reschedule my match on the 24th. I really have to work then because I owed a colleague a big favor. Thanks in advance
Uh, can't someone else on TAKK sub for you? It's not like lineups were due yet or anything. Not that I care, you're playing vs mSj D:
We've got like four core players and hes one of em, so I think the answer is 'rather not'
What if we create a D Ranks Champions League (DRCL) as a follow up to DRTL?
DRTL continues with 4 teams playoffs, but only the top 6 teams will be able to participate in DRCL. This would keep the interest in the league even for the bottom teams.
So DRTL ranking would work something like this:
1st: goes to DRTL playoffs + invite to DRCL 2nd: goes to DRTL playoffs + invite to DRCL 3rd: goes to DRTL playoffs + invite to DRCL 4th: goes to DRTL playoffs + invite to DRCL 5th: invite to DRCL 6th: invite to DRCL 7th: nothing, go practice for next season! 8th: nothing, go practice for next season!
Even if the 7th and 8th teams have no chance to grab a spot in the playoffs, they could always try to reach to the DRCL.
On August 15 2013 07:57 fabiano wrote: What if we create a D Ranks Champions League (DRCL) as a follow up to DRTL?
DRTL continues with 4 teams playoffs, but only the top 6 teams will be able to participate in DRCL. This would keep the interest in the league even for the bottom teams.
So DRTL ranking would work something like this:
1st: goes to DRTL playoffs + invite to DRCL 2nd: goes to DRTL playoffs + invite to DRCL 3rd: goes to DRTL playoffs + invite to DRCL 4th: goes to DRTL playoffs + invite to DRCL 5th: invite to DRCL 6th: invite to DRCL 7th: nothing, go practice for next season! 8th: nothing, go practice for next season!
Even if the 7th and 8th teams have no chance to grab a spot in the playoffs, they could always try to reach to the DRCL.
Kind of like we have in football (soccer).
not a bad idea, I like it. I'll echo that 14 weeks is a bit too long. Maybe 12 weeks is a bit better?
On August 15 2013 07:57 fabiano wrote: What if we create a D Ranks Champions League (DRCL) as a follow up to DRTL?
DRTL continues with 4 teams playoffs, but only the top 6 teams will be able to participate in DRCL. This would keep the interest in the league even for the bottom teams.
So DRTL ranking would work something like this:
1st: goes to DRTL playoffs + invite to DRCL 2nd: goes to DRTL playoffs + invite to DRCL 3rd: goes to DRTL playoffs + invite to DRCL 4th: goes to DRTL playoffs + invite to DRCL 5th: invite to DRCL 6th: invite to DRCL 7th: nothing, go practice for next season! 8th: nothing, go practice for next season!
Even if the 7th and 8th teams have no chance to grab a spot in the playoffs, they could always try to reach to the DRCL.
Kind of like we have in football (soccer).
not a bad idea, I like it. I'll echo that 14 weeks is a bit too long. Maybe 12 weeks is a bit better?
I agree that 14 is on the lengthy side, but there are only two other alternatives:
1) 7 week season - In my opinion this is really short, barely gives the season time to get rolling and it's over 2) 8-13 wk season - better length, but then you get into the messiness of byes, not to mention they can be unfair to teams (weak team doesn't get a bye vs a stronger team)
I guess a third option exists though, which is having it be two seven week seasons, allowing for re-drafting and signing new FA in the events of inactivity, possible with a DRIT in between.
On August 15 2013 07:14 Sentenal wrote: Aren't there like 10 players on TAKK?
Not all of them are active and not all of them are as good as kai.
The whole point of this league is letting less good players have experience competing. If no one else is active it's understandable, although that brings into question why TAKK didn't draft then.
As for the timing situation, I think 14wk season is better because it allows everyone to rematch their opponent (byes wouldn' allow it), and its better than 7week season (just is rly short). I think its almost ideal now, since playoffs should happen in November or so, after which we could have a DRIT from Nov/Dec period and start with a DRATL or DRTLS7 in January?
On August 15 2013 07:57 fabiano wrote: What if we create a D Ranks Champions League (DRCL) as a follow up to DRTL?
DRTL continues with 4 teams playoffs, but only the top 6 teams will be able to participate in DRCL. This would keep the interest in the league even for the bottom teams.
So DRTL ranking would work something like this:
1st: goes to DRTL playoffs + invite to DRCL 2nd: goes to DRTL playoffs + invite to DRCL 3rd: goes to DRTL playoffs + invite to DRCL 4th: goes to DRTL playoffs + invite to DRCL 5th: invite to DRCL 6th: invite to DRCL 7th: nothing, go practice for next season! 8th: nothing, go practice for next season!
Even if the 7th and 8th teams have no chance to grab a spot in the playoffs, they could always try to reach to the DRCL.
Kind of like we have in football (soccer).
not a bad idea, I like it. I'll echo that 14 weeks is a bit too long. Maybe 12 weeks is a bit better?
I agree that 14 is on the lengthy side, but there are only two other alternatives:
1) 7 week season - In my opinion this is really short, barely gives the season time to get rolling and it's over 2) 8-13 wk season - better length, but then you get into the messiness of byes, not to mention they can be unfair to teams (weak team doesn't get a bye vs a stronger team)
I guess a third option exists though, which is having it be two seven week seasons, allowing for re-drafting and signing new FA in the events of inactivity, possible with a DRIT in between.
I'm actually not sure what the concept of byes is. Should read up on it. Third option definitely seems like a reasonable idea although I wonder when the finals would be after the second season.
On August 15 2013 07:57 fabiano wrote: What if we create a D Ranks Champions League (DRCL) as a follow up to DRTL?
DRTL continues with 4 teams playoffs, but only the top 6 teams will be able to participate in DRCL. This would keep the interest in the league even for the bottom teams.
So DRTL ranking would work something like this:
1st: goes to DRTL playoffs + invite to DRCL 2nd: goes to DRTL playoffs + invite to DRCL 3rd: goes to DRTL playoffs + invite to DRCL 4th: goes to DRTL playoffs + invite to DRCL 5th: invite to DRCL 6th: invite to DRCL 7th: nothing, go practice for next season! 8th: nothing, go practice for next season!
Even if the 7th and 8th teams have no chance to grab a spot in the playoffs, they could always try to reach to the DRCL.
Kind of like we have in football (soccer).
not a bad idea, I like it. I'll echo that 14 weeks is a bit too long. Maybe 12 weeks is a bit better?
I agree that 14 is on the lengthy side, but there are only two other alternatives:
1) 7 week season - In my opinion this is really short, barely gives the season time to get rolling and it's over 2) 8-13 wk season - better length, but then you get into the messiness of byes, not to mention they can be unfair to teams (weak team doesn't get a bye vs a stronger team)
I guess a third option exists though, which is having it be two seven week seasons, allowing for re-drafting and signing new FA in the events of inactivity, possible with a DRIT in between.
I'm actually not sure what the concept of byes is. Should read up on it. Third option definitely seems like a reasonable idea although I wonder when the finals would be after the second season.
A 'bye' is basically an off-week for a team. So like if your team had a week 1 bye, that means your team doesn't play week 1.
I agree in the sense that there should be rules that are more strict on making postponements, but to others that want to play but can't play on gamedays, they'll feel it's unfair.
In my opinion, a player that CAN play should be placed priority over those that are considered better but needs to postpone. We're trying to limit walkovers, yes, but we should also be trying to limit postponements. Getting results in ASAP should be our main goal.
Edit: And also, dunno where captains are, but it'd be appreciated if teams that took part in the draft came out and either posted their new draftees or posted their new rosters.
On August 15 2013 13:04 rauk wrote: there should really be rules this season about postponement
say, a max of like 3 per season
last season was kind of ridiculous with postponing almost ever game every single week
Everyone ignored me when I brought it up, so I assumed nobody agreed with the idea.
On July 27 2013 13:35 KazeHydra wrote: Also, rescheduling and w/o consistently stirs up drama every now and then. I think enforcing stricter pp rules (for example, only 2 players per week can request pp or games must be played no later than the following Thursday) is a good idea. This is because teams often don't account for whether players can play at game time. Drama aside, this has caused delays in results, and last DRTL playoffs took 2 weeks per round in addition to them being delayed to get in the final regular season results due to the very close rankings. Furthermore, this means teams have the option of always fielding their strongest members. Therefore, stricter pp rules would indirectly cause a decrease in the amount of games the strongest players play as well as the actual occasional need to rely on weaker players to fill in at game time.
My suggestions are only examples, and I think max of 3 per season is too harsh, but I do agree with some form of strict pp rules. Teams should not be allowed to field their best players every week while requesting pp's left and right, and the current rules basically allow this if teams choose to do so.
On August 15 2013 07:57 fabiano wrote: What if we create a D Ranks Champions League (DRCL) as a follow up to DRTL?
DRTL continues with 4 teams playoffs, but only the top 6 teams will be able to participate in DRCL. This would keep the interest in the league even for the bottom teams.
So DRTL ranking would work something like this:
1st: goes to DRTL playoffs + invite to DRCL 2nd: goes to DRTL playoffs + invite to DRCL 3rd: goes to DRTL playoffs + invite to DRCL 4th: goes to DRTL playoffs + invite to DRCL 5th: invite to DRCL 6th: invite to DRCL 7th: nothing, go practice for next season! 8th: nothing, go practice for next season!
Even if the 7th and 8th teams have no chance to grab a spot in the playoffs, they could always try to reach to the DRCL.
Kind of like we have in football (soccer).
not a bad idea, I like it. I'll echo that 14 weeks is a bit too long. Maybe 12 weeks is a bit better?
I agree that 14 is on the lengthy side, but there are only two other alternatives:
1) 7 week season - In my opinion this is really short, barely gives the season time to get rolling and it's over 2) 8-13 wk season - better length, but then you get into the messiness of byes, not to mention they can be unfair to teams (weak team doesn't get a bye vs a stronger team)
I guess a third option exists though, which is having it be two seven week seasons, allowing for re-drafting and signing new FA in the events of inactivity, possible with a DRIT in between.
I'm actually not sure what the concept of byes is. Should read up on it. Third option definitely seems like a reasonable idea although I wonder when the finals would be after the second season.
A 'bye' is basically an off-week for a team. So like if your team had a week 1 bye, that means your team doesn't play week 1.
oh ok makes sense.
While I agree there should be rules about postponements, I think having a limit of 3 etc... might also be problematic. I think first a substitute should be attempted. If it doesn't work, then have a postponement but ask for the match to be played by the end of the week so that you have the results by Sunday night. Have both players organize the time to play it and if that's impossible, either get two other players to play it or eliminate it from the list(ex. 5 matches, whichever team wins 3/4 matches wins. If the score is 2/4, have an ace match then). I'm sure that there are some problems with my recommendation but at least it keeps the league flexible and would still appeal to those that have a busy lifestyle.
I'm thinking a two round DRTL, with a DRIT in between, 7 weeks for each DRTL; maybe the first 3-4 weeks of round 2 as all-kill format. Playoffs after the 2nd round.
On August 15 2013 16:20 L_Master wrote: I'm thinking a two round DRTL, with a DRIT in between, 7 weeks for each DRTL; maybe the first 3-4 weeks of round 2 as all-kill format. Playoffs after the 2nd round.
And now we are talking serious buisness. How about 3 parts: normal style -all kill - normal style = into playoffs after 3 rounds
Playday would be saturday (usuall day) and DRIT is running during DRTL, playday would be sunday. DRIT could be held 2times or 1 big DRIT.
Which would also means, that all D Rank league/tour maker/admin as to work together. Which would lead to fix season times, cause no more "i start it when i want it to start" or "i would start but im not sure if anyone else want to do something", with breaks between for draft and "recovery" like real (e)sport.
So...just subscribe to Draw's youtubechannel, so he can stream again (besides twitch ) and we might have pro caster too. perfect ready for more professional d ranks.
Only problem with the longer season with DRIT in the middle is that players have a habit of leaving during even only a 10 week season and you're planning on making that even longer, perhaps double. It does sound fun, just the logistics of it could be problematic.
I'm really against the idea of running a DRIT at the same time as DRTL; maybe it's just me, but I don't see how there will be any quality games with the amount of games people could be preparing for in the later of stages of both. I think a round of DRATL between two regular rounds of DRTL would be more reasonable if you want to bring out stronger players, but again I think it defeats purpose of these leagues in fielding new players and giving them experience.
On August 15 2013 19:37 t0ssboy wrote:
Team Hwaiting Oz is entering Smokeybear
Loving the team name, but is this rule still in force for the league?
Race picking will be allowed, but if you pick to play a certain race on a given day, you must continue playing that race throughout the whole day. You will only be allowed to change your race for the next week. For the purposes of this league, random will not be allowed.
On August 15 2013 21:34 DarkNetHunter wrote: I'm really against the idea of running a DRIT at the same time as DRTL; maybe it's just me, but I don't see how there will be any quality games with the amount of games people could be preparing for in the later of stages of both. I think a round of DRATL between two regular rounds of DRTL would be more reasonable if you want to bring out stronger players, but again I think it defeats purpose of these leagues in fielding new players and giving them experience.
Loving the team name, but is this rule still in force for the league?
Race picking will be allowed, but if you pick to play a certain race on a given day, you must continue playing that race throughout the whole day. You will only be allowed to change your race for the next week. For the purposes of this league, random will not be allowed.
He is at around D+ and is not sure wether he will play T or Z,but he plays all races on his account and is at around D+ with all of them.That's why i put him as random.Will sort it out when i get to talk to him about which race he will be playing.
On August 15 2013 21:34 DarkNetHunter wrote: I'm really against the idea of running a DRIT at the same time as DRTL; maybe it's just me, but I don't see how there will be any quality games with the amount of games people could be preparing for in the later of stages of both. I think a round of DRATL between two regular rounds of DRTL would be more reasonable if you want to bring out stronger players, but again I think it defeats purpose of these leagues in fielding new players and giving them experience.
On August 15 2013 19:37 t0ssboy wrote:
Team Hwaiting Oz is entering Smokeybear
Loving the team name, but is this rule still in force for the league?
Race picking will be allowed, but if you pick to play a certain race on a given day, you must continue playing that race throughout the whole day. You will only be allowed to change your race for the next week. For the purposes of this league, random will not be allowed.
He is at around D+ and is not sure wether he will play T or Z,but he plays all races on his account and is at around D+ with all of them.That's why i put him as random.Will sort it out when i get to talk to him about which race he will be playing.
why not specify that immediately to prevent me and DNH from saying something about it xd
On August 16 2013 02:54 abit wrote: mSj lineup on this saturday mSj[holy](z) mSj[[R2D2] (t) mSj[Mr.LiR] (P) mSj[naxel] (z) mSj[prokaznik] (P) mSj[fury] (R) mSj[duxx] (P)
Abit, you shouldn't public release lineups, also games are not starting until next saturday not this saturday. Edit: Unless you just meant this is Roster of players playing for your team.
On August 16 2013 02:54 abit wrote: mSj lineup on this saturday mSj[holy](z) mSj[[R2D2] (t) mSj[Mr.LiR] (P) mSj[naxel] (z) mSj[prokaznik] (P) mSj[fury] (R) mSj[duxx] (P)
Abit, you shouldn't public release lineups, also games are not starting until next saturday not this saturday. Edit: Unless you just meant this is Roster of players playing for your team.
oh, i didn't know , games starts at 24 august, i right understand?
We might of gotten some more from the draft plus we got a player from gameranger that will be a secret weapon in this league
Basically what I was asking for, since I figured TAKK also took part in the draft, even if it was one or two players that they drafted.
We didnt participate in the draft, which was also stipulated in the thread [I think? maybe im confusing what was said here with on skype] since we had enough and sun khan was basically eviscerated.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/q5TUzS9.png)
Stardom(OD) 
sGs.Lmaster 
Greenelve![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/isj8Cnf.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NsWxmY7.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oJGBl5i.png)
Sentenal (Max: C- ID: Sentenal)
Nagisama (Max: C- ID: Nagisama)
ghrur (Max: C- ID: aeghrur)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5HMFa.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/M5uEFdC.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IKxfWsp.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/a7THxlN.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CHwP6UN.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IyTZPbp.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://templesiege.com/images/naguuuusmall.gif)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GDtirg8.png)
![[image loading]](http://cdn.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/mr-burns-wallpaper.gif.scaled10003.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/mirror/smilies/zerg-big.gif)
mSj[abitStar] (C rank) captain![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/mirror/smilies/random-big.gif)
mSj[fury] D+![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/mirror/smilies/protoss-big.gif)
mSj[prokaznik] D+![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/mirror/smilies/terran-big.gif)
mSj[R2D2] D ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/I5d3CWh.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ynG4cwl.jpg?1)
) and we might have pro caster too. perfect ready for more professional d ranks. 
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VmCTIMc.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LNE2o.png)
