On March 20 2012 20:04 chongu wrote: CJ. What happened to your clutchness?
What are you talking about? CJ continues their streak of clutch mediocrity into today!
CJ coaching is too well rounded imo, that's not necessarily a bad trait, it's just that CJ expects all of its star players to be able to handle any match up on any map. And many of them are indeed able to pull it off, but it's just not an efficient allocation of resources when other teams like Khan and Stars (which CJ was able to overcome) have map / race exclusive snipers. That's why it seems like they are not "clutch", it's because they are all trying to get the maximal score on every thing so they don't excel where they could. It's like trying to get every player to get an A on every subject when other teams are just asking one player to get an A+ on 1. It's a testament to how good their players are to always consistently make the playoffs.
No, they're just garbage in the playoffs. All three days, CJ had favorable matchups (especially today) and they managed to throw it away, just like they did every season for who knows how long.
Well i'm just trying to analyze why that is, look at CJ's star players' record during proleague, they all have played on at least 4 different maps, and against every possible comp. That's almost solely dependent the decision of the coaching staff.
I don't think that really matters much. Look at Stats this season - he's played on every single map against every single race. Hydra, on the other hand, played almost half of his games as Outlier ZvZs and still was terrible in the playoffs. I just chalk it up to CJ being CJ.
Stats and Flash both belong in the naturally talented category along with CJ's star players though, they are given the same expectations, that's exactly the point. Action / Hoejja / CH aren't, they prepare for specific snipes on specific maps in play offs.
And Hydra? 10 out of his 18 games this season have been ZvZ. He won his MSL through non-stop ZvZ. He got sent out on a map where ZvZ is quite likely. If you're playing on Chain Reaction, you essentially only have to prepare for 2 matchups: ZvZ and ZvP. What's his excuse?
On March 20 2012 20:04 chongu wrote: CJ. What happened to your clutchness?
What are you talking about? CJ continues their streak of clutch mediocrity into today!
CJ coaching is too well rounded imo, that's not necessarily a bad trait, it's just that CJ expects all of its star players to be able to handle any match up on any map. And many of them are indeed able to pull it off, but it's just not an efficient allocation of resources when other teams like Khan and Stars (which CJ was able to overcome) have map / race exclusive snipers. That's why it seems like they are not "clutch", it's because they are all trying to get the maximal score on every thing so they don't excel where they could. It's like trying to get every player to get an A on every subject when other teams are just asking one player to get an A+ on 1. It's a testament to how good their players are to always consistently make the playoffs.
Good point! 2 years ago I would have argued that CJ had the most matchup specific players. (e.g, Skyhigh, Movie, CH) A team with the most "A-class players" capable of sniping any S-class player. Now I don't even know what CJ is ;;
It's a strange situation though, because essentially it's also a waste of potential not to promote these players to be well rounded because if you consider the talent of these players, Hydra, Effort, Leta, movie, horang2 etc; they are all capable and some have won or participated in individual league finals. No one expects Hoejja or Crazy-Hydra or Action to make a deep individual league run precisely because they all have specific traits that may be very useful during team league, but CJ players will almost always make it deeper into individual leagues because of it.
Hydra made it almost solely based on ZvZ Movie made it almost completely based on PvZ As much as I like Effort, he was a fluke, but his strongest matchup was always ZvZ (imo - he just beat up on Kal a lot for ZvP) Horang2 was only good at PvP, although he's improved a bit Snow is... I don't even know about his PvT any more Leta is fine
I think CJ is much more sniper-y than KT, if anything. KT knew that CJ wasn't going to win anything once they got rid of the two Zergs, so good for them.
Poor Kal...he is the top protoss...during the same year that Jaedong is slightly down from 2009 but still playing amazing, Fantasy comes out of a slump (mid 2010) and Flash is in his initial God-mode stage.
On March 20 2012 20:04 chongu wrote: CJ. What happened to your clutchness?
What are you talking about? CJ continues their streak of clutch mediocrity into today!
CJ coaching is too well rounded imo, that's not necessarily a bad trait, it's just that CJ expects all of its star players to be able to handle any match up on any map. And many of them are indeed able to pull it off, but it's just not an efficient allocation of resources when other teams like Khan and Stars (which CJ was able to overcome) have map / race exclusive snipers. That's why it seems like they are not "clutch", it's because they are all trying to get the maximal score on every thing so they don't excel where they could. It's like trying to get every player to get an A on every subject when other teams are just asking one player to get an A+ on 1. It's a testament to how good their players are to always consistently make the playoffs.
Good point! 2 years ago I would have argued that CJ had the most matchup specific players. (e.g, Skyhigh, Movie, CH) A team with the most "A-class players" capable of sniping any S-class player. Now I don't even know what CJ is ;;
It's a strange situation though, because essentially it's also a waste of potential not to promote these players to be well rounded because if you consider the talent of these players, Hydra, Effort, Leta, movie, horang2 etc; they are all capable and some have won or participated in individual league finals. No one expects Hoejja or Crazy-Hydra or Action to make a deep individual league run precisely because they all have specific traits that may be very useful during team league, but CJ players will almost always make it deeper into individual leagues because of it.
Hydra made it almost solely based on ZvZ Movie made it almost completely based on PvZ As much as I like Effort, he was a fluke, but his strongest matchup was always ZvZ (imo - he just beat up on Kal a lot for ZvP) Horang2 was only good at PvP, although he's improved a bit Snow is... I don't even know about his PvT any more Leta is fine
I think CJ is much more sniper-y than KT, if anything. KT knew that CJ wasn't going to win anything once they got rid of the two Zergs, so good for them.
Poor Kal...he is the top protoss...during the same year that Jaedong is slightly down from 2009 but still playing amazing, Fantasy comes out of a slump (mid 2010) and Flash is in his initial God-mode stage.
When all P are mediocre, he succeeds at being the least mediocre.
and now the big question is: was hoejjas loss against killer intentional to lead cj coaching on the wrong path? or is killer just so much better than effort? and since when is hoejja a zvz sniper anyway?
On March 20 2012 20:04 chongu wrote: CJ. What happened to your clutchness?
What are you talking about? CJ continues their streak of clutch mediocrity into today!
CJ coaching is too well rounded imo, that's not necessarily a bad trait, it's just that CJ expects all of its star players to be able to handle any match up on any map. And many of them are indeed able to pull it off, but it's just not an efficient allocation of resources when other teams like Khan and Stars (which CJ was able to overcome) have map / race exclusive snipers. That's why it seems like they are not "clutch", it's because they are all trying to get the maximal score on every thing so they don't excel where they could. It's like trying to get every player to get an A on every subject when other teams are just asking one player to get an A+ on 1. It's a testament to how good their players are to always consistently make the playoffs.
No, they're just garbage in the playoffs. All three days, CJ had favorable matchups (especially today) and they managed to throw it away, just like they did every season for who knows how long.
Well i'm just trying to analyze why that is, look at CJ's star players' record during proleague, they all have played on at least 4 different maps, and against every possible comp. That's almost solely dependent the decision of the coaching staff.
I don't think that really matters much. Look at Stats this season - he's played on every single map against every single race. Hydra, on the other hand, played almost half of his games as Outlier ZvZs and still was terrible in the playoffs. I just chalk it up to CJ being CJ.
Stats and Flash both belong in the naturally talented category along with CJ's star players though, they are given the same expectations, that's exactly the point. Action / Hoejja / CH aren't, they prepare for specific snipes on specific maps in play offs.
And Hydra? 10 out of his 18 games this season have been ZvZ. He won his MSL through non-stop ZvZ. He got sent out on a map where ZvZ is quite likely. If you're playing on Chain Reaction, you essentially only have to prepare for 2 matchups: ZvZ and ZvP. What's his excuse?
Well I'm not really "excusing" CJ players for under performing, I just think the difference in coaching mentality does exist and it paid off for KT. KT zergs certainly are the secret weapon of KT.
On March 20 2012 20:38 Heimatloser wrote: and now the big question is: was hoejjas loss against killer intentional to lead cj coaching on the wrong path? or is killer just so much better than effort? and since when is hoejja a zvz sniper anyway?
I don't think it's intentional, it's just that Effort is CJ's ace and no doubt every aspect of his play is studied by KT. Who on CJ is going to think to study Hoejja / Action's ZvZ?
On March 20 2012 20:04 chongu wrote: CJ. What happened to your clutchness?
What are you talking about? CJ continues their streak of clutch mediocrity into today!
CJ coaching is too well rounded imo, that's not necessarily a bad trait, it's just that CJ expects all of its star players to be able to handle any match up on any map. And many of them are indeed able to pull it off, but it's just not an efficient allocation of resources when other teams like Khan and Stars (which CJ was able to overcome) have map / race exclusive snipers. That's why it seems like they are not "clutch", it's because they are all trying to get the maximal score on every thing so they don't excel where they could. It's like trying to get every player to get an A on every subject when other teams are just asking one player to get an A+ on 1. It's a testament to how good their players are to always consistently make the playoffs.
Good point! 2 years ago I would have argued that CJ had the most matchup specific players. (e.g, Skyhigh, Movie, CH) A team with the most "A-class players" capable of sniping any S-class player. Now I don't even know what CJ is ;;
It's a strange situation though, because essentially it's also a waste of potential not to promote these players to be well rounded because if you consider the talent of these players, Hydra, Effort, Leta, movie, horang2 etc; they are all capable and some have won or participated in individual league finals. No one expects Hoejja or Crazy-Hydra or Action to make a deep individual league run precisely because they all have specific traits that may be very useful during team league, but CJ players will almost always make it deeper into individual leagues because of it.
Hydra made it almost solely based on ZvZ Movie made it almost completely based on PvZ As much as I like Effort, he was a fluke, but his strongest matchup was always ZvZ (imo - he just beat up on Kal a lot for ZvP) Horang2 was only good at PvP, although he's improved a bit Snow is... I don't even know about his PvT any more Leta is fine
I think CJ is much more sniper-y than KT, if anything. KT knew that CJ wasn't going to win anything once they got rid of the two Zergs, so good for them.
What's funny is that the most one-matchup-only player at CJ is Skyhigh with TvT and he won a TvP during the playoffs..
On March 20 2012 20:04 chongu wrote: CJ. What happened to your clutchness?
What are you talking about? CJ continues their streak of clutch mediocrity into today!
CJ coaching is too well rounded imo, that's not necessarily a bad trait, it's just that CJ expects all of its star players to be able to handle any match up on any map. And many of them are indeed able to pull it off, but it's just not an efficient allocation of resources when other teams like Khan and Stars (which CJ was able to overcome) have map / race exclusive snipers. That's why it seems like they are not "clutch", it's because they are all trying to get the maximal score on every thing so they don't excel where they could. It's like trying to get every player to get an A on every subject when other teams are just asking one player to get an A+ on 1. It's a testament to how good their players are to always consistently make the playoffs.
Good point! 2 years ago I would have argued that CJ had the most matchup specific players. (e.g, Skyhigh, Movie, CH) A team with the most "A-class players" capable of sniping any S-class player. Now I don't even know what CJ is ;;
It's a strange situation though, because essentially it's also a waste of potential not to promote these players to be well rounded because if you consider the talent of these players, Hydra, Effort, Leta, movie, horang2 etc; they are all capable and some have won or participated in individual league finals. No one expects Hoejja or Crazy-Hydra or Action to make a deep individual league run precisely because they all have specific traits that may be very useful during team league, but CJ players will almost always make it deeper into individual leagues because of it.
Hydra made it almost solely based on ZvZ Movie made it almost completely based on PvZ As much as I like Effort, he was a fluke, but his strongest matchup was always ZvZ (imo - he just beat up on Kal a lot for ZvP) Horang2 was only good at PvP, although he's improved a bit Snow is... I don't even know about his PvT any more Leta is fine
I think CJ is much more sniper-y than KT, if anything. KT knew that CJ wasn't going to win anything once they got rid of the two Zergs, so good for them.
What's funny is that the most one-matchup-only player at CJ is Skyhigh with TvT and he won a TvP during the playoffs..
On March 20 2012 20:38 Heimatloser wrote: and now the big question is: was hoejjas loss against killer intentional to lead cj coaching on the wrong path? or is killer just so much better than effort? and since when is hoejja a zvz sniper anyway?
I don't think it's intentional, it's just that Effort is CJ's ace and no doubt every aspect of his play is studied by KT. Who on CJ is going to think to study Hoejja / Action's ZvZ?
Action ZvZ? Force muta-micro, actions crumbles;-) Still im wondering about Hoejja. Did KT expect Protoss on his Maps or was Hoejja intentionally sent out to snipe Zerg / Terran? If so, thats crazy
On March 20 2012 20:38 Heimatloser wrote: and now the big question is: was hoejjas loss against killer intentional to lead cj coaching on the wrong path? or is killer just so much better than effort? and since when is hoejja a zvz sniper anyway?
I don't think it's intentional, it's just that Effort is CJ's ace and no doubt every aspect of his play is studied by KT. Who on CJ is going to think to study Hoejja / Action's ZvZ?
You don't study ZvZs. And if you do, Hoejja and Action sure didn't have any Effort-specific builds prepared. Hoejja played very well today, and I know KT fans are glad you won, but stop giving credit where it isn't due. Effort just played baaaaaaaaaaaaad. Kudos to Action and Hoejja for not playing terribly (including that one nice Spire snipe), but this is definitely more of Effort losing three games that he should have easily won
Although I have a fear this is going to continue, as Roro is just naturally bad at ZvZ.
On March 20 2012 20:04 chongu wrote: CJ. What happened to your clutchness?
What are you talking about? CJ continues their streak of clutch mediocrity into today!
CJ coaching is too well rounded imo, that's not necessarily a bad trait, it's just that CJ expects all of its star players to be able to handle any match up on any map. And many of them are indeed able to pull it off, but it's just not an efficient allocation of resources when other teams like Khan and Stars (which CJ was able to overcome) have map / race exclusive snipers. That's why it seems like they are not "clutch", it's because they are all trying to get the maximal score on every thing so they don't excel where they could. It's like trying to get every player to get an A on every subject when other teams are just asking one player to get an A+ on 1. It's a testament to how good their players are to always consistently make the playoffs.
Good point! 2 years ago I would have argued that CJ had the most matchup specific players. (e.g, Skyhigh, Movie, CH) A team with the most "A-class players" capable of sniping any S-class player. Now I don't even know what CJ is ;;
It's a strange situation though, because essentially it's also a waste of potential not to promote these players to be well rounded because if you consider the talent of these players, Hydra, Effort, Leta, movie, horang2 etc; they are all capable and some have won or participated in individual league finals. No one expects Hoejja or Crazy-Hydra or Action to make a deep individual league run precisely because they all have specific traits that may be very useful during team league, but CJ players will almost always make it deeper into individual leagues because of it.
Hydra made it almost solely based on ZvZ Movie made it almost completely based on PvZ As much as I like Effort, he was a fluke, but his strongest matchup was always ZvZ (imo - he just beat up on Kal a lot for ZvP) Horang2 was only good at PvP, although he's improved a bit Snow is... I don't even know about his PvT any more Leta is fine
I think CJ is much more sniper-y than KT, if anything. KT knew that CJ wasn't going to win anything once they got rid of the two Zergs, so good for them.
What's funny is that the most one-matchup-only player at CJ is Skyhigh with TvT and he won a TvP during the playoffs..
On March 20 2012 20:04 chongu wrote: CJ. What happened to your clutchness?
What are you talking about? CJ continues their streak of clutch mediocrity into today!
CJ coaching is too well rounded imo, that's not necessarily a bad trait, it's just that CJ expects all of its star players to be able to handle any match up on any map. And many of them are indeed able to pull it off, but it's just not an efficient allocation of resources when other teams like Khan and Stars (which CJ was able to overcome) have map / race exclusive snipers. That's why it seems like they are not "clutch", it's because they are all trying to get the maximal score on every thing so they don't excel where they could. It's like trying to get every player to get an A on every subject when other teams are just asking one player to get an A+ on 1. It's a testament to how good their players are to always consistently make the playoffs.
Good point! 2 years ago I would have argued that CJ had the most matchup specific players. (e.g, Skyhigh, Movie, CH) A team with the most "A-class players" capable of sniping any S-class player. Now I don't even know what CJ is ;;
It's a strange situation though, because essentially it's also a waste of potential not to promote these players to be well rounded because if you consider the talent of these players, Hydra, Effort, Leta, movie, horang2 etc; they are all capable and some have won or participated in individual league finals. No one expects Hoejja or Crazy-Hydra or Action to make a deep individual league run precisely because they all have specific traits that may be very useful during team league, but CJ players will almost always make it deeper into individual leagues because of it.
Hydra made it almost solely based on ZvZ Movie made it almost completely based on PvZ As much as I like Effort, he was a fluke, but his strongest matchup was always ZvZ (imo - he just beat up on Kal a lot for ZvP) Horang2 was only good at PvP, although he's improved a bit Snow is... I don't even know about his PvT any more Leta is fine
I think CJ is much more sniper-y than KT, if anything. KT knew that CJ wasn't going to win anything once they got rid of the two Zergs, so good for them.
What's funny is that the most one-matchup-only player at CJ is Skyhigh with TvT and he won a TvP during the playoffs..
On March 20 2012 20:21 BLinD-RawR wrote: as far as I can remember lightwip is not a fan of fantasy either....at least his hate for terran is to all terrans not just Flash and others.
Hate to say it, but you're wrong about this note. Fantasy redeems himself by not playing like a scornworthy terran scum. His games are skilled masterpieces, not mindless brute force cheese like your KT friends.
I see.
would you give credit to Flash if he played masterpiece level? Don't argue the if, I just want a yes/no answer.
On March 20 2012 20:38 Heimatloser wrote: and now the big question is: was hoejjas loss against killer intentional to lead cj coaching on the wrong path? or is killer just so much better than effort? and since when is hoejja a zvz sniper anyway?
I don't think it's intentional, it's just that Effort is CJ's ace and no doubt every aspect of his play is studied by KT. Who on CJ is going to think to study Hoejja / Action's ZvZ?
You don't study ZvZs. And if you do, Hoejja and Action sure didn't have any Effort-specific builds prepared. Hoejja played very well today, and I know KT fans are glad you won, but stop giving credit where it isn't due. Effort just played baaaaaaaaaaaaad. Kudos to Action and Hoejja for not playing terribly (including that one nice Spire snipe), but this is definitely more of Effort losing three games that he should have easily won
Although I have a fear this is going to continue, as Roro is just naturally bad at ZvZ.
I get your point. On a side note though, yes people do study ZvZ's. It's the one match up where every single unit / larvae timing matters, as well as pathing of almost every initial unit be it overlords drones zerglings mutalisks or scourge. It might be ridiculously difficult to find patterns in ZvZ's but I'm pretty sure it exists.
On March 20 2012 20:04 chongu wrote: CJ. What happened to your clutchness?
What are you talking about? CJ continues their streak of clutch mediocrity into today!
CJ coaching is too well rounded imo, that's not necessarily a bad trait, it's just that CJ expects all of its star players to be able to handle any match up on any map. And many of them are indeed able to pull it off, but it's just not an efficient allocation of resources when other teams like Khan and Stars (which CJ was able to overcome) have map / race exclusive snipers. That's why it seems like they are not "clutch", it's because they are all trying to get the maximal score on every thing so they don't excel where they could. It's like trying to get every player to get an A on every subject when other teams are just asking one player to get an A+ on 1. It's a testament to how good their players are to always consistently make the playoffs.
No, they're just garbage in the playoffs. All three days, CJ had favorable matchups (especially today) and they managed to throw it away, just like they did every season for who knows how long.
Well i'm just trying to analyze why that is, look at CJ's star players' record during proleague, they all have played on at least 4 different maps, and against every possible comp. That's almost solely dependent the decision of the coaching staff.
I don't think that really matters much. Look at Stats this season - he's played on every single map against every single race. Hydra, on the other hand, played almost half of his games as Outlier ZvZs and still was terrible in the playoffs. I just chalk it up to CJ being CJ.
Stats and Flash both belong in the naturally talented category along with CJ's star players though, they are given the same expectations, that's exactly the point. Action / Hoejja / CH aren't, they prepare for specific snipes on specific maps in play offs.
That's fine. But I wouldn't call ZvZ's snipes, especially when there wasn't any hidden builds involved or anything. Hydra and Effort should beat Action and Hoejja 80% of the time, no questions asked. They failed to get it done, period.
Effort wasn't ready for this season. He was in a worse situation than Team 8. Hydra has been slumping for weeks.
On March 20 2012 20:38 Heimatloser wrote: and now the big question is: was hoejjas loss against killer intentional to lead cj coaching on the wrong path? or is killer just so much better than effort? and since when is hoejja a zvz sniper anyway?
I don't think it's intentional, it's just that Effort is CJ's ace and no doubt every aspect of his play is studied by KT. Who on CJ is going to think to study Hoejja / Action's ZvZ?
You don't study ZvZs. And if you do, Hoejja and Action sure didn't have any Effort-specific builds prepared. Hoejja played very well today, and I know KT fans are glad you won, but stop giving credit where it isn't due. Effort just played baaaaaaaaaaaaad. Kudos to Action and Hoejja for not playing terribly (including that one nice Spire snipe), but this is definitely more of Effort losing three games that he should have easily won
Although I have a fear this is going to continue, as Roro is just naturally bad at ZvZ.
I get your point. On a side note though, yes people do study ZvZ's. It's the one match up where every single unit / larvae timing matters, as well as pathing of almost every initial unit be it overlords drones zerglings mutalisks or scourge. It might be ridiculously difficult to find patterns in ZvZ's but I'm pretty sure it exists.
Fair enough, my point was just that the games were decided on Effort and Hydra making bonehead fighting decisions at stupid timings, especially when they were maybe one muta ahead, etc. But gj Action anyway
On March 20 2012 20:04 chongu wrote: CJ. What happened to your clutchness?
What are you talking about? CJ continues their streak of clutch mediocrity into today!
CJ coaching is too well rounded imo, that's not necessarily a bad trait, it's just that CJ expects all of its star players to be able to handle any match up on any map. And many of them are indeed able to pull it off, but it's just not an efficient allocation of resources when other teams like Khan and Stars (which CJ was able to overcome) have map / race exclusive snipers. That's why it seems like they are not "clutch", it's because they are all trying to get the maximal score on every thing so they don't excel where they could. It's like trying to get every player to get an A on every subject when other teams are just asking one player to get an A+ on 1. It's a testament to how good their players are to always consistently make the playoffs.
No, they're just garbage in the playoffs. All three days, CJ had favorable matchups (especially today) and they managed to throw it away, just like they did every season for who knows how long.
Well i'm just trying to analyze why that is, look at CJ's star players' record during proleague, they all have played on at least 4 different maps, and against every possible comp. That's almost solely dependent the decision of the coaching staff.
I don't think that really matters much. Look at Stats this season - he's played on every single map against every single race. Hydra, on the other hand, played almost half of his games as Outlier ZvZs and still was terrible in the playoffs. I just chalk it up to CJ being CJ.
Stats and Flash both belong in the naturally talented category along with CJ's star players though, they are given the same expectations, that's exactly the point. Action / Hoejja / CH aren't, they prepare for specific snipes on specific maps in play offs.
That's fine. But I wouldn't call ZvZ's snipes, especially when there wasn't any hidden builds involved or anything. Hydra and Effort should beat Action and Hoejja 80% of the time, no questions asked. They failed to get it done, period.
Effort wasn't ready for this season. He was in a worse situation than Team 8. Hydra has been slumping for weeks.
But yeah, Hoejja isn't exactly good.
Ehh, Effort was 4-0 ZvZ. He looked pretty sharp in that matchup at least. Hydra wasn't looking too bad on ZvZ either (admittedly he did lose to Hoejja earlier)
EPT
