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On March 20 2012 20:10 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 20:06 Lightwip wrote:On March 20 2012 20:04 chongu wrote:
CJ. What happened to your clutchness? What are you talking about? CJ continues their streak of clutch mediocrity into today! CJ coaching is too well rounded imo, that's not necessarily a bad trait, it's just that CJ expects all of its star players to be able to handle any match up on any map. And many of them are indeed able to pull it off, but it's just not an efficient allocation of resources when other teams like Khan and Stars (which CJ was able to overcome) have map / race exclusive snipers. That's why it seems like they are not "clutch", it's because they are all trying to get the maximal score on every thing so they don't excel where they could. It's like trying to get every player to get an A on every subject when other teams are just asking one player to get an A+ on 1. It's a testament to how good their players are to always consistently make the playoffs.
Good point! 2 years ago I would have argued that CJ had the most matchup specific players. (e.g, Skyhigh, Movie, CH) A team with the most "A-class players" capable of sniping any S-class player. Now I don't even know what CJ is ;;
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On March 20 2012 20:17 J1.au wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 19:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 20 2012 19:54 J1.au wrote:
I still don't understand why KHAN is so overhyped. They will fall just like the others. I worry a little about Jangbi and Stork, to be honest. Flash really needs to practice his TvP, because biomech is awesome, but you don't do that every game. Especially if it happens that your opponent is Stork and has the best reaver micro in the multiverse. KHAN have always had Jangbi and Stork. I have a hard time believing that after all these years they will suddenly carry KHAN to another SPL title. I think Stats and Flash can handle them while the KT Zergs finish off the rest.
I've watched Starcraft for a long time and I don't remember KT ever beating Samsung in the playoffs. Not that it matters much.
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On March 20 2012 20:15 doothegee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 20:10 Caihead wrote:On March 20 2012 20:06 Lightwip wrote:On March 20 2012 20:04 chongu wrote:
CJ. What happened to your clutchness? What are you talking about? CJ continues their streak of clutch mediocrity into today! CJ coaching is too well rounded imo, that's not necessarily a bad trait, it's just that CJ expects all of its star players to be able to handle any match up on any map. And many of them are indeed able to pull it off, but it's just not an efficient allocation of resources when other teams like Khan and Stars (which CJ was able to overcome) have map / race exclusive snipers. That's why it seems like they are not "clutch", it's because they are all trying to get the maximal score on every thing so they don't excel where they could. It's like trying to get every player to get an A on every subject when other teams are just asking one player to get an A+ on 1. It's a testament to how good their players are to always consistently make the playoffs. No, they're just garbage in the playoffs. All three days, CJ had favorable matchups (especially today) and they managed to throw it away, just like they did every season for who knows how long.
Well i'm just trying to analyze why that is, look at CJ's star players' record during proleague, they all have played on at least 4 different maps, and against every possible comp. That's almost solely dependent the decision of the coaching staff.
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i find the zvz imbalance in this series (apart from ch's little fail the other day) really hilarious
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On March 20 2012 20:19 chongu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 20:10 Caihead wrote:On March 20 2012 20:06 Lightwip wrote:On March 20 2012 20:04 chongu wrote:
CJ. What happened to your clutchness? What are you talking about? CJ continues their streak of clutch mediocrity into today! CJ coaching is too well rounded imo, that's not necessarily a bad trait, it's just that CJ expects all of its star players to be able to handle any match up on any map. And many of them are indeed able to pull it off, but it's just not an efficient allocation of resources when other teams like Khan and Stars (which CJ was able to overcome) have map / race exclusive snipers. That's why it seems like they are not "clutch", it's because they are all trying to get the maximal score on every thing so they don't excel where they could. It's like trying to get every player to get an A on every subject when other teams are just asking one player to get an A+ on 1. It's a testament to how good their players are to always consistently make the playoffs. Good point! 2 years ago I would have argued that CJ had the most matchup specific players. (e.g, Skyhigh, Movie, CH) A team with the most "A-class players" capable of sniping any S-class player. Now I don't even know what CJ is ;; CJ is still a team of snipers, as far as I can tell. That's why they're so hit and miss.
Only Leta strikes me as a well-rounded player (theoretically Effort too, but he hasn't been playing up to that standard recently).
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51706 Posts
as far as I can remember lightwip is not a fan of fantasy either....at least his hate for terran is to all terrans not just Flash and others.
Flash won TvP!
KT 4-0!
KT-Khan day 1 thread by me!
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On March 20 2012 20:20 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 20:15 doothegee wrote:On March 20 2012 20:10 Caihead wrote:On March 20 2012 20:06 Lightwip wrote:On March 20 2012 20:04 chongu wrote:
CJ. What happened to your clutchness? What are you talking about? CJ continues their streak of clutch mediocrity into today! CJ coaching is too well rounded imo, that's not necessarily a bad trait, it's just that CJ expects all of its star players to be able to handle any match up on any map. And many of them are indeed able to pull it off, but it's just not an efficient allocation of resources when other teams like Khan and Stars (which CJ was able to overcome) have map / race exclusive snipers. That's why it seems like they are not "clutch", it's because they are all trying to get the maximal score on every thing so they don't excel where they could. It's like trying to get every player to get an A on every subject when other teams are just asking one player to get an A+ on 1. It's a testament to how good their players are to always consistently make the playoffs. No, they're just garbage in the playoffs. All three days, CJ had favorable matchups (especially today) and they managed to throw it away, just like they did every season for who knows how long. Well i'm just trying to analyze why that is, look at CJ's star players' record during proleague, they all have played on at least 4 different maps, and against every possible comp. That's almost solely dependent the decision of the coaching staff.
I don't think that really matters much. Look at Stats this season - he's played on every single map against every single race. Hydra, on the other hand, played almost half of his games as Outlier ZvZs and still was terrible in the playoffs. I just chalk it up to CJ being CJ.
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On March 20 2012 20:19 chongu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 20:10 Caihead wrote:On March 20 2012 20:06 Lightwip wrote:On March 20 2012 20:04 chongu wrote:
CJ. What happened to your clutchness? What are you talking about? CJ continues their streak of clutch mediocrity into today! CJ coaching is too well rounded imo, that's not necessarily a bad trait, it's just that CJ expects all of its star players to be able to handle any match up on any map. And many of them are indeed able to pull it off, but it's just not an efficient allocation of resources when other teams like Khan and Stars (which CJ was able to overcome) have map / race exclusive snipers. That's why it seems like they are not "clutch", it's because they are all trying to get the maximal score on every thing so they don't excel where they could. It's like trying to get every player to get an A on every subject when other teams are just asking one player to get an A+ on 1. It's a testament to how good their players are to always consistently make the playoffs. Good point! 2 years ago I would have argued that CJ had the most matchup specific players. (e.g, Skyhigh, Movie, CH) A team with the most "A-class players" capable of sniping any S-class player. Now I don't even know what CJ is ;;
It's a strange situation though, because essentially it's also a waste of potential not to promote these players to be well rounded because if you consider the talent of these players, Hydra, Effort, Leta, movie, horang2 etc; they are all capable and some have won or participated in individual league finals. No one expects Hoejja or Crazy-Hydra or Action to make a deep individual league run precisely because they all have specific traits that may be very useful during team league, but CJ players will almost always make it deeper into individual leagues because of it.
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Good god this is terrible. I'm going to be rooting for KT to lose so badly now. Another SKT v KT finals is just too much to take.
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On March 20 2012 20:19 chongu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 20:10 Caihead wrote:On March 20 2012 20:06 Lightwip wrote:On March 20 2012 20:04 chongu wrote:
CJ. What happened to your clutchness? What are you talking about? CJ continues their streak of clutch mediocrity into today! CJ coaching is too well rounded imo, that's not necessarily a bad trait, it's just that CJ expects all of its star players to be able to handle any match up on any map. And many of them are indeed able to pull it off, but it's just not an efficient allocation of resources when other teams like Khan and Stars (which CJ was able to overcome) have map / race exclusive snipers. That's why it seems like they are not "clutch", it's because they are all trying to get the maximal score on every thing so they don't excel where they could. It's like trying to get every player to get an A on every subject when other teams are just asking one player to get an A+ on 1. It's a testament to how good their players are to always consistently make the playoffs. Good point! 2 years ago I would have argued that CJ had the most matchup specific players. (e.g, Skyhigh, Movie, CH) A team with the most "A-class players" capable of sniping any S-class player. Now I don't even know what CJ is ;;
True, true. CJ was known for quite a while as the matchup sniper team and their coaching generally does a very good job of getting favorable matchups for said snipers. Then they had Effort (after Savior was banned) as there general ace with a very good vP matchup, but they weren't afraid of putting in a sniper if the opponent's ace was practically guaranteed (KT and SKT mostly.) Now...I'm not so sure.
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On March 20 2012 20:22 doothegee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 20:20 Caihead wrote:On March 20 2012 20:15 doothegee wrote:On March 20 2012 20:10 Caihead wrote:On March 20 2012 20:06 Lightwip wrote:On March 20 2012 20:04 chongu wrote:
CJ. What happened to your clutchness? What are you talking about? CJ continues their streak of clutch mediocrity into today! CJ coaching is too well rounded imo, that's not necessarily a bad trait, it's just that CJ expects all of its star players to be able to handle any match up on any map. And many of them are indeed able to pull it off, but it's just not an efficient allocation of resources when other teams like Khan and Stars (which CJ was able to overcome) have map / race exclusive snipers. That's why it seems like they are not "clutch", it's because they are all trying to get the maximal score on every thing so they don't excel where they could. It's like trying to get every player to get an A on every subject when other teams are just asking one player to get an A+ on 1. It's a testament to how good their players are to always consistently make the playoffs. No, they're just garbage in the playoffs. All three days, CJ had favorable matchups (especially today) and they managed to throw it away, just like they did every season for who knows how long. Well i'm just trying to analyze why that is, look at CJ's star players' record during proleague, they all have played on at least 4 different maps, and against every possible comp. That's almost solely dependent the decision of the coaching staff. I don't think that really matters much. Look at Stats this season - he's played on every single map against every single race. Hydra, on the other hand, played almost half of his games as Outlier ZvZs and still was terrible in the playoffs. I just chalk it up to CJ being CJ.
Stats and Flash both belong in the naturally talented category along with CJ's star players though, they are given the same expectations, that's exactly the point. Action / Hoejja / CH aren't, they prepare for specific snipes on specific maps in play offs.
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On March 20 2012 20:23 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 20:19 chongu wrote:On March 20 2012 20:10 Caihead wrote:On March 20 2012 20:06 Lightwip wrote:On March 20 2012 20:04 chongu wrote:
CJ. What happened to your clutchness? What are you talking about? CJ continues their streak of clutch mediocrity into today! CJ coaching is too well rounded imo, that's not necessarily a bad trait, it's just that CJ expects all of its star players to be able to handle any match up on any map. And many of them are indeed able to pull it off, but it's just not an efficient allocation of resources when other teams like Khan and Stars (which CJ was able to overcome) have map / race exclusive snipers. That's why it seems like they are not "clutch", it's because they are all trying to get the maximal score on every thing so they don't excel where they could. It's like trying to get every player to get an A on every subject when other teams are just asking one player to get an A+ on 1. It's a testament to how good their players are to always consistently make the playoffs. Good point! 2 years ago I would have argued that CJ had the most matchup specific players. (e.g, Skyhigh, Movie, CH) A team with the most "A-class players" capable of sniping any S-class player. Now I don't even know what CJ is ;; It's a strange situation though, because essentially it's also a waste of potential not to promote these players to be well rounded because if you consider the talent of these players, Hydra, Effort, Leta, movie, horang2 etc; they are all capable and some have won or participated in individual league finals. No one expects Hoejja or Crazy-Hydra or Action to make a deep individual league run precisely because they all have specific traits that may be very useful during team league, but CJ players will almost always make it deeper into individual leagues because of it.
Hydra made it almost solely based on ZvZ
Movie made it almost completely based on PvZ
As much as I like Effort, he was a fluke, but his strongest matchup was always ZvZ (imo - he just beat up on Kal a lot for ZvP)
Horang2 was only good at PvP, although he's improved a bit
Snow is... I don't even know about his PvT any more
Leta is fine
I think CJ is much more sniper-y than KT, if anything. KT knew that CJ wasn't going to win anything once they got rid of the two Zergs, so good for them.
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On March 20 2012 20:21 BLinD-RawR wrote:
as far as I can remember lightwip is not a fan of fantasy either....at least his hate for terran is to all terrans not just Flash and others.
Flash won TvP!
KT 4-0!
KT-Khan day 1 thread by me!
Some epic Stork v Flash banner in the making huh :D
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On March 20 2012 20:21 okum wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 20:19 chongu wrote:On March 20 2012 20:10 Caihead wrote:On March 20 2012 20:06 Lightwip wrote:On March 20 2012 20:04 chongu wrote:
CJ. What happened to your clutchness? What are you talking about? CJ continues their streak of clutch mediocrity into today! CJ coaching is too well rounded imo, that's not necessarily a bad trait, it's just that CJ expects all of its star players to be able to handle any match up on any map. And many of them are indeed able to pull it off, but it's just not an efficient allocation of resources when other teams like Khan and Stars (which CJ was able to overcome) have map / race exclusive snipers. That's why it seems like they are not "clutch", it's because they are all trying to get the maximal score on every thing so they don't excel where they could. It's like trying to get every player to get an A on every subject when other teams are just asking one player to get an A+ on 1. It's a testament to how good their players are to always consistently make the playoffs. Good point! 2 years ago I would have argued that CJ had the most matchup specific players. (e.g, Skyhigh, Movie, CH) A team with the most "A-class players" capable of sniping any S-class player. Now I don't even know what CJ is ;; CJ is still a team of snipers, as far as I can tell. That's why they're so hit and miss. Only Leta strikes me as a well-rounded player (theoretically Effort too, but he hasn't been playing up to that standard recently).
Maybe it's because they are trying to make snipers into well-rounded players that they are having these mixed results then?
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Now Khan, win pls.
Yet another SKT vs KT finals is just meh and will kill BW for me.
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On March 20 2012 20:26 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 20:22 doothegee wrote:On March 20 2012 20:20 Caihead wrote:On March 20 2012 20:15 doothegee wrote:On March 20 2012 20:10 Caihead wrote:On March 20 2012 20:06 Lightwip wrote:On March 20 2012 20:04 chongu wrote:
CJ. What happened to your clutchness? What are you talking about? CJ continues their streak of clutch mediocrity into today! CJ coaching is too well rounded imo, that's not necessarily a bad trait, it's just that CJ expects all of its star players to be able to handle any match up on any map. And many of them are indeed able to pull it off, but it's just not an efficient allocation of resources when other teams like Khan and Stars (which CJ was able to overcome) have map / race exclusive snipers. That's why it seems like they are not "clutch", it's because they are all trying to get the maximal score on every thing so they don't excel where they could. It's like trying to get every player to get an A on every subject when other teams are just asking one player to get an A+ on 1. It's a testament to how good their players are to always consistently make the playoffs. No, they're just garbage in the playoffs. All three days, CJ had favorable matchups (especially today) and they managed to throw it away, just like they did every season for who knows how long. Well i'm just trying to analyze why that is, look at CJ's star players' record during proleague, they all have played on at least 4 different maps, and against every possible comp. That's almost solely dependent the decision of the coaching staff. I don't think that really matters much. Look at Stats this season - he's played on every single map against every single race. Hydra, on the other hand, played almost half of his games as Outlier ZvZs and still was terrible in the playoffs. I just chalk it up to CJ being CJ. Stats and Flash both belong in the naturally talented category along with CJ's star players though, they are given the same expectations, that's exactly the point. Action / Hoejja / CH aren't, they prepare for specific snipes on specific maps in play offs.
That's fine. But I wouldn't call ZvZ's snipes, especially when there wasn't any hidden builds involved or anything. Hydra and Effort should beat Action and Hoejja 80% of the time, no questions asked. They failed to get it done, period.
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On March 20 2012 20:15 Draffut wrote:
And equating "boredom" to "Interesting" is just silly.
That's just it though; it's the paradox of being a KT fan.
On March 20 2012 20:21 BLinD-RawR wrote:
as far as I can remember lightwip is not a fan of fantasy either....at least his hate for terran is to all terrans not just Flash and others.
Hate to say it, but you're wrong about this note.
Fantasy redeems himself by not playing like a scornworthy terran scum. His games are skilled masterpieces, not mindless brute force cheese like your KT friends.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51706 Posts
On March 20 2012 20:26 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 20:21 BLinD-RawR wrote:
as far as I can remember lightwip is not a fan of fantasy either....at least his hate for terran is to all terrans not just Flash and others.
Flash won TvP!
KT 4-0!
KT-Khan day 1 thread by me! Some epic Stork v Flash banner in the making huh :D
I don't do epic.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51706 Posts
On March 20 2012 20:28 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 20:15 Draffut wrote:
And equating "boredom" to "Interesting" is just silly. That's just it though; it's the paradox of being a KT fan.
:/
hi bitterwip.
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On March 20 2012 20:28 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 20:26 Sawamura wrote:On March 20 2012 20:21 BLinD-RawR wrote:
as far as I can remember lightwip is not a fan of fantasy either....at least his hate for terran is to all terrans not just Flash and others.
Flash won TvP!
KT 4-0!
KT-Khan day 1 thread by me! Some epic Stork v Flash banner in the making huh :D I don't do epic.
But why ???? I will give you electronic cookies  .
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EPT
